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Author Topic: An article on traditional Catholicism  (Read 1215 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« on: May 16, 2011, 12:02:20 PM »

Interesting article:

A Brief Defense of Traditionalism (December 21, 2001)
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« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2011, 09:57:20 AM »


Interesting publication.  I had not been aware of it when it was active.  Pity.

What do you think of the article?  

I don't like "isms" when used with subjects dealing with faith.  Invokes images of mindlessness and passivity.  I will do everything that I can to even avoid using "Catholocism"...So I wish they might have done something else with the title to avoid using Traditional-ism.
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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2011, 01:49:50 PM »

Yes, it's curious that the title of the article is "A Brief Defense of Traditionalism".

I notice actually that one website changed the title to "A Brief Defense of Traditional Catholicism".
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2011, 03:18:44 PM »

This article states perfectly what  I have felt since vatican II but have been unable to put  in  words. Beliefs and teachings HAVE changed. I remember when we sang NO protestant Hymns in Church and if a communion wafer was dropped there was no 10 second rule but a ritual cleaning that showed respectfor the  host as the Body of Christ. Also no communion  in hands. Inter marriage was frowned on but no is no big deal. Just a few things.
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2011, 03:50:23 PM »

This article states perfectly what  I have felt since vatican II but have been unable to put  in  words. Beliefs and teachings HAVE changed. I remember when we sang NO protestant Hymns in Church and if a communion wafer was dropped there was no 10 second rule but a ritual cleaning that showed respectfor the  host as the Body of Christ. Also no communion  in hands. Inter marriage was frowned on but no is no big deal. Just a few things.


You mention above if the host  when dropped accidently,the cleaning commenced in the traditional Catholic church,, Interesting ...I wittnessed similar in the Serbian Orthodox Church when the Blood and Body spilled out ,on to the floor ,,The area was closed off imediatly, After Holy Liturgy the Priest Was On his Hands and knees, scrubbing the are Clean ,He didn't even take his Liturgical vestment off  that how important it was to clense that area..... police
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2011, 06:37:25 PM »

This article states perfectly what  I have felt since vatican II but have been unable to put  in  words. Beliefs and teachings HAVE changed. I remember when we sang NO protestant Hymns in Church and if a communion wafer was dropped there was no 10 second rule but a ritual cleaning that showed respectfor the  host as the Body of Christ. Also no communion  in hands. Inter marriage was frowned on but no is no big deal. Just a few things.


You mention above if the host  when dropped accidently,the cleaning commenced in the traditional Catholic church,, Interesting ...I wittnessed similar in the Serbian Orthodox Church when the Blood and Body spilled out ,on to the floor ,,The area was closed off imediatly, After Holy Liturgy the Priest Was On his Hands and knees, scrubbing the are Clean ,He didn't even take his Liturgical vestment off  that how important it was to clense that area..... police

I'm sure the current OC method of Eucharist is much harder to clean than a dropped wafer.         ....................oh yeah -->  police
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2011, 06:54:50 PM »

This article states perfectly what  I have felt since vatican II but have been unable to put  in  words. Beliefs and teachings HAVE changed. I remember when we sang NO protestant Hymns in Church and if a communion wafer was dropped there was no 10 second rule but a ritual cleaning that showed respectfor the  host as the Body of Christ. Also no communion  in hands. Inter marriage was frowned on but no is no big deal. Just a few things.


You mention above if the host  when dropped accidently,the cleaning commenced in the traditional Catholic church,, Interesting ...I wittnessed similar in the Serbian Orthodox Church when the Blood and Body spilled out ,on to the floor ,,The area was closed off imediatly, After Holy Liturgy the Priest Was On his Hands and knees, scrubbing the are Clean ,He didn't even take his Liturgical vestment off  that how important it was to clense that area..... police

I'm sure the current OC method of Eucharist is much harder to clean than a dropped wafer.         ....................oh yeah -->  police

The Father did cosume what he could find ,the red Cloth that is put under the communing members chin absorbed  the blood that he layed  on the area that the spillage happened...It' was all good ,he took care of it, scubbed a very large area, in reverence and aww...So as Not to miss anything  police
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2011, 07:04:12 PM »

This article states perfectly what  I have felt since vatican II but have been unable to put  in  words. Beliefs and teachings HAVE changed. I remember when we sang NO protestant Hymns in Church and if a communion wafer was dropped there was no 10 second rule but a ritual cleaning that showed respectfor the  host as the Body of Christ. Also no communion  in hands. Inter marriage was frowned on but no is no big deal. Just a few things.


You mention above if the host  when dropped accidently,the cleaning commenced in the traditional Catholic church,, Interesting ...I wittnessed similar in the Serbian Orthodox Church when the Blood and Body spilled out ,on to the floor ,,The area was closed off imediatly, After Holy Liturgy the Priest Was On his Hands and knees, scrubbing the are Clean ,He didn't even take his Liturgical vestment off  that how important it was to clense that area..... police

I'm sure the current OC method of Eucharist is much harder to clean than a dropped wafer.         ....................oh yeah -->  police

The Father did cosume what he could find ,the red Cloth that is put under the communing members chin absorbed  the blood that he layed it on the area that the spillage happened...It' was all good ,he took care of it, scubbed a very large area, in reverence and aww...So as Not to miss anything  police

I was being sarcastic.

I'm sure he did every respect an reverence to the Eucharist. However, the amount of effort for the mixed species of Eucharist verses the single dropped wafer warrent a different level of measure to ensure a respectable and appropriate level of reverence. Therefore, your attempt to claim pious superiority is for not.
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2011, 07:11:13 PM »

This article states perfectly what  I have felt since vatican II but have been unable to put  in  words. Beliefs and teachings HAVE changed. I remember when we sang NO protestant Hymns in Church and if a communion wafer was dropped there was no 10 second rule but a ritual cleaning that showed respectfor the  host as the Body of Christ. Also no communion  in hands. Inter marriage was frowned on but no is no big deal. Just a few things.


You mention above if the host  when dropped accidental,the cleaning commenced in the traditional Catholic church,, Interesting ...I witnessed similar in the Serbian Orthodox Church when the Blood and Body spilled out ,on to the floor ,,The area was closed off immediately, After Holy Liturgy the Priest Was On his Hands and knees, scrubbing the are Clean ,He didn't even take his Liturgical vestment off  that how important it was to cleanse that area..... police

I'm sure the current OC method of Eucharist is much harder to clean than a dropped wafer.         ....................oh yeah -->  police

The Father did consume what he could find ,the red Cloth that is put under the communing members chin absorbed  the blood that he lay ed it on the area that the spillage happened...It' was all good ,he took care of it, scrubbed a very large area, in reverence and aw...So as Not to miss anything  police

I was being sarcastic.

I'm sure he did every respect an reverence to the Eucharist. However, the amount of effort for the mixed species of Eucharist verses the single dropped wafer warrent a different level of measure to ensure a respectable and appropriate level of reverence. Therefore, your attempt to claim pious superiority is for not.

Oh ! And where did i claim such in my post above, but a similarity, But considering we Orthodox commune in both species the cleaning would be some what different if a spill occurred,  in stead of just  sweeping up a host , if i wanted to be rude this is how i would end my post....... Grin
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2011, 07:27:08 PM »

This article states perfectly what  I have felt since vatican II but have been unable to put  in  words. Beliefs and teachings HAVE changed. I remember when we sang NO protestant Hymns in Church and if a communion wafer was dropped there was no 10 second rule but a ritual cleaning that showed respectfor the  host as the Body of Christ. Also no communion  in hands. Inter marriage was frowned on but no is no big deal. Just a few things.


You mention above if the host  when dropped accidental,the cleaning commenced in the traditional Catholic church,, Interesting ...I witnessed similar in the Serbian Orthodox Church when the Blood and Body spilled out ,on to the floor ,,The area was closed off immediately, After Holy Liturgy the Priest Was On his Hands and knees, scrubbing the are Clean ,He didn't even take his Liturgical vestment off  that how important it was to cleanse that area..... police

I'm sure the current OC method of Eucharist is much harder to clean than a dropped wafer.         ....................oh yeah -->  police

The Father did consume what he could find ,the red Cloth that is put under the communing members chin absorbed  the blood that he lay ed it on the area that the spillage happened...It' was all good ,he took care of it, scrubbed a very large area, in reverence and aw...So as Not to miss anything  police

I was being sarcastic.

I'm sure he did every respect an reverence to the Eucharist. However, the amount of effort for the mixed species of Eucharist verses the single dropped wafer warrent a different level of measure to ensure a respectable and appropriate level of reverence. Therefore, your attempt to claim pious superiority is for not.

Oh ! And where did i claim such in my post above, but a similarity, But considering we Orthodox commune in both species the cleaning would be some what different if a spill occurred,  in stead of just of sweeping up a host , if i wanted to be rude this is how i would end my post....... Grin

In my days of serving at the Basilica in DC, when a consecrated host was dropped, we were instructed to immediately pick the host up, reverently consume it, and then cover the area with a purificator and literally "stand guard" until Mass was over.  The priest would then clean the area with holy water, soak up the water with another purificator, which would then be washed with the others that were used to clean out the chalice during the ablutions after Mass.

Done properly, cleaning up an area on which a consecrated host was dropped was a great deal more involved than just "sweeping up a host."
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2011, 07:36:22 PM »

I'm done with this thread ....Now i don't want to know anything or care of our similarities....
 I don't want to be accused that we Orthodox are trying to appear overly pious than some others .....  Angry
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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2011, 07:38:59 PM »

I'm done with this thread ....Now i don't want to know anything or care of our similarities....
 I don't want it to appear that we Orthodox are trying to appear overly pious than some others ..... Grin

Much too late to avoid that.  And besides, regardless of appearances the heart still speaks in its silence...It simply does not speak to us.
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2011, 07:40:51 PM »

I saw something like that a couple times in my first parish. Everyone was mortified. They had the same response- instant cover, and stop the line of recipients until everything was clean.
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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2011, 09:27:34 PM »

This article states perfectly what  I have felt since vatican II but have been unable to put  in  words.

Glad you liked it. Any particular section?
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« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2011, 01:50:52 AM »

This article states perfectly what I have felt since Vatican II but have been unable to put  in  words. Beliefs and teachings HAVE changed. I remember when we sang NO protestant Hymns in Church and if a communion wafer was dropped there was no 10 second rule but a ritual cleaning that showed respectfor the  host as the Body of Christ. Also no communion  in hands. Inter marriage was frowned on but no is no big deal. Just a few things.

The things you list sound more like disciplines then actual doctrine and dogma's.  If you like the old fashioned way they did things in the RCC then just admit your preference. Please don't pretend though that these ritual legalism that you cite were necessary components to the Catholic faith and that their abandonment somehow constitutes a "change" of actual RC beliefs.

Also inter marriage is still technically frowned upon as it was in the past.  The RCC still has strict guidelines that are followed if an intermarriage is to take place, especially in regards to raising children.
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« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2011, 08:37:52 AM »

On a side note, when I was looking for material related to that article, I came across this:

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Can you envision any way that communion could be achieved between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy that does not entail the Eastern Orthodox being in submission to Rome?

Sure: an arrangement which basically allows the Orthodox to give at least hypothetical “lip service”, so to speak, to papal primacy and supremacy and infallibility (?), while in practice it basically governs itself with little interference — much like Pope John Paul II has already proposed. It might be somewhat similar to the Queen of England, who is “sovereign” but who has little real political power.

That's from Dave Armstrong's blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism.

What I'm wondering is, am I the only person who (if I saw that without knowing it came from a neo-conservative Catholic) would think that was a sarcastic statement from a radical traditionalist Catholic?
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« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2011, 08:53:20 AM »

On a side note, when I was looking for material related to that article, I came across this:

Quote
Can you envision any way that communion could be achieved between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy that does not entail the Eastern Orthodox being in submission to Rome?

Sure: an arrangement which basically allows the Orthodox to give at least hypothetical “lip service”, so to speak, to papal primacy and supremacy and infallibility (?), while in practice it basically governs itself with little interference — much like Pope John Paul II has already proposed. It might be somewhat similar to the Queen of England, who is “sovereign” but who has little real political power.

That's from Dave Armstrong's blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism.

What I'm wondering is, am I the only person who (if I saw that without knowing it came from a neo-conservative Catholic) would think that was a sarcastic statement from a radical traditionalist Catholic?

Either sarcastic or really, really, really naive....The reference to the Queen and the off-comment that she possesses 'little political power' gives it away to me. Even a vestigal reference to a hint of 'political power' remaining in such a papacy would send the Orthodox scurrying for cover.
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« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2011, 11:05:59 AM »


Either sarcastic or really, really, really naive....The reference to the Queen and the off-comment that she possesses 'little political power' gives it away to me. Even a vestigal reference to a hint of 'political power' remaining in such a papacy would send the Orthodox scurrying for cover.

Apparently not all Orthodox are put off by the idea of a Christ-centered monarch, though I am sure the Holy Father would not wish to be seen in secular terms at all.  But his reception of the tiaras being made for him and given to him indicates that not all the people in the world are sold on Big Daddy governments which are neither of the people nor for the people...though with heavy taxes they sure as hell are by the people.
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« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2011, 11:24:32 AM »

Either sarcastic or really, really, really naive....The reference to the Queen and the off-comment that she possesses 'little political power' gives it away to me. Even a vestigal reference to a hint of 'political power' remaining in such a papacy would send the Orthodox scurrying for cover.

I was actually thinking more of the sentence before that ...

Quote
Sure: an arrangement which basically allows the Orthodox to give at least hypothetical “lip service”, so to speak, to papal primacy and supremacy and infallibility (?), while in practice it basically governs itself with little interference — much like Pope John Paul II has already proposed.

That part about “lip service” in particular sounds to me like the sort sarcastic comment that a radical traditionalist Catholic would make about neo-conservative Catholics.
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« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2011, 11:32:26 AM »

On a side note, when I was looking for material related to that article, I came across this:

Quote
Can you envision any way that communion could be achieved between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy that does not entail the Eastern Orthodox being in submission to Rome?

Sure: an arrangement which basically allows the Orthodox to give at least hypothetical “lip service”, so to speak, to papal primacy and supremacy and infallibility (?), while in practice it basically governs itself with little interference — much like Pope John Paul II has already proposed. It might be somewhat similar to the Queen of England, who is “sovereign” but who has little real political power.

That's from Dave Armstrong's blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism.

What I'm wondering is, am I the only person who (if I saw that without knowing it came from a neo-conservative Catholic) would think that was a sarcastic statement from a radical traditionalist Catholic?

Either sarcastic or really, really, really naive....The reference to the Queen and the off-comment that she possesses 'little political power' gives it away to me. Even a vestigal reference to a hint of 'political power' remaining in such a papacy would send the Orthodox scurrying for cover.
So would the next sentence:
Quote
I think the main thing in a reunion is an acknowledgement by both sides that distinctives and variations in theology and liturgy are permissible. I think there is a way that, e.g., the filioque can be harmonized with an Eastern understanding, just as several early Eastern Fathers had no trouble doing.
Nor do we have to quibble about the fine points of the consecration or purgatory, etc. — i.e., on the broader ‘ecumenical” plane. We need to first acknowledge each other as more or less equal brothers in Christ. As far as I am concerned, the Catholic Church has pretty much already done that with regard to the Orthodox, without compromising its self-understanding. It is many of the Orthodox who want no part of the West, having inherited a particularly vehement anti-Western, anti-Catholic outlook. That can only be cracked by God’s grace, as it goes far beyond mere theology.

to which a proper reply is given:
Quote
I’m sorry Dave but these mantras really don’t give any explanatory role as to the separation.

None of the Eastern Fathers, except perhaps those who were still in some sense a slave to Origenism, could be profited forth as a defense of the filioque. Collapsing the Nous into the One as a first principle in order to make the Nous the cause of a divine person as a way to stave off Gothic Arianism is not the solution. It is the same presuppositions as Arianism: deity is defined as causality. The Neo-Platonic system is flexible enough to license such a move. Tweak it a little bit here or a little there and you think you’ve solved the problem, where in actuality it is only resituated.

You just don’t understand the philosophical theology that separates the two bodies.

Until you get there, you’re never going to see the filioque as anything else than “verbal trifles.”
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« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2011, 12:41:44 PM »


Either sarcastic or really, really, really naive....The reference to the Queen and the off-comment that she possesses 'little political power' gives it away to me. Even a vestigal reference to a hint of 'political power' remaining in such a papacy would send the Orthodox scurrying for cover.

Apparently not all Orthodox are put off by the idea of a Christ-centered monarch, though I am sure the Holy Father would not wish to be seen in secular terms at all.  But his reception of the tiaras being made for him and given to him indicates that not all the people in the world are sold on Big Daddy governments which are neither of the people nor for the people...though with heavy taxes they sure as hell are by the people.

? Many of us in the US, including the ACROD and Metropolia,  used service books in Slavonic printed in L'viv for years, including Gospels. That didn't make us Papists, so how is the manufacture of the Tiara in Bulgaria supportive of your point of view? Many an old book has black marker crossing out certain things therein.
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« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2011, 12:44:27 PM »


Either sarcastic or really, really, really naive....The reference to the Queen and the off-comment that she possesses 'little political power' gives it away to me. Even a vestigal reference to a hint of 'political power' remaining in such a papacy would send the Orthodox scurrying for cover.

Apparently not all Orthodox are put off by the idea of a Christ-centered monarch, though I am sure the Holy Father would not wish to be seen in secular terms at all.  But his reception of the tiaras being made for him and given to him indicates that not all the people in the world are sold on Big Daddy governments which are neither of the people nor for the people...though with heavy taxes they sure as hell are by the people.

? Many of us in the US, including the ACROD and Metropolia,  used service books in Slavonic printed in L'viv for years, including Gospels. That didn't make us Papists, so how is the manufacture of the Tiara in Bulgaria supportive of your point of view? Many an old book has black marker crossing out certain things therein.

The article makes it clear that the item was not only made in an Orthodox house but presented by Orthodox believers.  This was a gesture of the desire for unity and billed as such.
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« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2011, 04:02:39 PM »

This Dave Armstrong is one of a never ended series of "apologist" (Almost all converts from Protestantism) which have infiltrated the RCC in recent decades.  They were all heavily involved in evangelical style "ministries" before converting and they obviously have decided to continue their egocentric "know it all" preaching under the guise of a Catholic apostolate. 

The idea of lay men engaged in such evangelizing work is something that is pretty foreign to the RCC (As it is to the Orthodox).  These people obviously realize that the road to personal riches in draped in the garments of religion and they do not wish to relinquish their cherished "ministries" even after embracing a religion which such things are foreign to.  These types really don't have much credibility in the RCC outside of their own "inner circles" (Mostly made up of ex protestant, Catholic converts).  So don't place too much stock in what men like Dave Armstrong, Scott Hahn, or Scott Hand say.  They are not RC magisterial pronouncements (Even if these people wish their every words were).
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« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2011, 10:00:42 PM »

This article states perfectly what  I have felt since vatican II but have been unable to put  in  words. Beliefs and teachings HAVE changed.

I think that some changes have been good or at least neutral -- for example, I don't have any problem with communion in both species (especially if done by intinction).

But, having said that, I'm very bothered by the way most Catholics have walked away from so many of the very things that Catholics and Orthodox had in common, such as the traditional order of the sacraments.
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- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
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