Topic: Vicar of...

[yeshuaisiam]

Why did the Pope change from -

The vicar of Peter
to
The vicar of Christ?

Vicar means "in place of" for those who don't know.

To make yourself as God, is satanic.
Lucifer did this in Isaiah 14, when he cast himself as God.
Masons do this when they call the "lodge" leader "worshipful master".
Satanists make themselves Gods until themselves.
Atheists make themselves Gods since they follow their own will.

To be "in place of Christ", as the Pope is said to be, don't you find the notion rather satanic?

[Asteriktos]

I think the Orthodox could argue, especially based on an early and eastern perspective, that the term goes too far and is a manifestation of an overgrown ecclesiology. Having said that, St. Ignatius, for one example, says that we are "subject to the bishop as to Jesus Christ" (Epistle to the Trallians, 2), so I'm not sure where exactly the line needs to be drawn. It's probably the underlying ecclesiological principles that these titles and terms and statements represent that are the real issue anyway.

[yeshuaisiam]

I think the Orthodox could argue, especially based on an early and eastern perspective, that the term goes too far and is a manifestation of an overgrown ecclesiology. Having said that, St. Ignatius, for one example, says that we are "subject to the bishop as to Jesus Christ" (Epistle to the Trallians, 2), so I'm not sure where exactly the line needs to be drawn. It's probably the underlying ecclesiological principles that these titles and terms and statements represent that are the real issue anyway.

Forgive me if I forget the year, but wasn't it sometime in the 1940-1960's (or "in the later years") that the pope became "The vicar of Christ", and all the years before "the vicar of Peter"?

No doubt they can be a vicar to a bishop (or apostle) and the bishop is the subject of Jesus Christ our God.
EO "popes" or patriarchs are technically Bishops/Vicars of certain apostles.

But to be a vicar of God (Jesus Christ)??

The RC's believe the Pope is in place of God.

[Punch]

Why did the Pope change from -

The vicar of Peter
to
The vicar of Christ?

Vicar means "in place of" for those who don't know.

To make yourself as God, is satanic.
Lucifer did this in Isaiah 14, when he cast himself as God.
Masons do this when they call the "lodge" leader "worshipful master".
Satanists make themselves Gods until themselves.
Atheists make themselves Gods since they follow their own will.

To be "in place of Christ", as the Pope is said to be, don't you find the notion rather satanic?

Agree.  One of the reasons that I consider the office of the papacy the office of the Antichrist.  I believe the Greek "anti" also means "in place of", making the pope's title, as well as his upsidedown cross, quite fitting.

[yeshuaisiam]

Why did the Pope change from -

The vicar of Peter
to
The vicar of Christ?

Vicar means "in place of" for those who don't know.

To make yourself as God, is satanic.
Lucifer did this in Isaiah 14, when he cast himself as God.
Masons do this when they call the "lodge" leader "worshipful master".
Satanists make themselves Gods until themselves.
Atheists make themselves Gods since they follow their own will.

To be "in place of Christ", as the Pope is said to be, don't you find the notion rather satanic?

Agree.  One of the reasons that I consider the office of the papacy the office of the Antichrist.  I believe the Greek "anti" also means "in place of", making the pope's title, as well as his upsidedown cross, quite fitting.

Well believe me I DON'T defend the Pope.  But I've heard the upside down cross is really there because Peter was executed on an upside down cross.
Kind of showing "this is where I came from" etc. etc.

Still though the "Vicar of Christ" title, is very unexplainable in my opinion.    It sounds very Luciferian.

[Kasatkin fan]

The upside down cross is much older than its modern usage by whatever counter-culture it is that started using it.

However I also agree Vicar of Christ is too far.

[Melodist]

I think the title "Vicar of Christ" is a little extreme, but at the same time every time a clergy member (bishop or priest) celebrates the liturgy, they serve as an icon of Christ, who is our great high priest. It's really the implied level of absolute authority that is the problem. But as I said, I still find the title itself to still be a little extreme.

[Peter J]

Why did the Pope change from -

The vicar of Peter
to
The vicar of Christ?

Vicar means "in place of" for those who don't know.

To make yourself as God, is satanic.
Lucifer did this in Isaiah 14, when he cast himself as God.
Masons do this when they call the "lodge" leader "worshipful master".
Satanists make themselves Gods until themselves.
Atheists make themselves Gods since they follow their own will.

To be "in place of Christ", as the Pope is said to be, don't you find the notion rather satanic?

Not to be a back-seat poster, but I think you should have started two separate threads: one to call the pope "satanic" and one to talk about the title Vicar of Christ.

[KBN1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicar_of_Christ

The third use of the term Vicar of Christ appears in the 5th century, in a synod of bishops to refer to Pope Gelasius I. The theological connotations of the title got a pastoral sense, evoking the words of Christ to the Apostle Peter, regarded by the first Catholic Pope in John 21:16-17, "Feed my lambs... Feed my sheep", so Christ made Peter his vicar and pastor with the responsibility to feed his flock (ie the Church) in his own place.[1]

However, the use of the title to refer to the popes in the early Church was unstable, and several variants of the use of Vicar were used for the Pope, as "Vicar of Peter", indicating that they were the successors of St. Peter, "Vicar of the Prince of the Apostles" or "Vicar of the Apostolic See",[1] among other variants. This title is used by the Roman Missal in their prayers for a dead pope,[8] and the oath of allegiance to St. Boniface to Pope Gregory II.[9] The appointment of the Vicar of Christ for the popes became only the regular use from the thirteenth century, due to the reforms employed by Pope Innocent III,[10] often called Innocent to this title and prerogative to appoint bishops.[1] The edition of 2009 the Annuario Pontificio, the "Vicar of Jesus Christ" as the third official title of the Popes.[11]

[yeshuaisiam]

Why did the Pope change from -

The vicar of Peter
to
The vicar of Christ?

Vicar means "in place of" for those who don't know.

To make yourself as God, is satanic.
Lucifer did this in Isaiah 14, when he cast himself as God.
Masons do this when they call the "lodge" leader "worshipful master".
Satanists make themselves Gods until themselves.
Atheists make themselves Gods since they follow their own will.

To be "in place of Christ", as the Pope is said to be, don't you find the notion rather satanic?

Not to be a back-seat poster, but I think you should have started two separate threads: one to call the pope "satanic" and one to talk about the title Vicar of Christ.

Well I felt that calling somebody in place of God is rather Satanic, that's why I linked them together.

There is no place for a man to replace God, and if a man thinks he's in place of God, he's doing as Lucifer did in Isaiah 14

[Wyatt]

RCs don't believe that the Pope replaces God. Whatever you think the term "Vicar of Christ" implies is irrelevant because what you think it implies is incorrect. Ask any good Catholic if they think the Pope is on equal footing with or above Christ and they will say no.

[Jharek Carnelian]

I suggest the OP looks up the roots of the word Vicar and the usage of that and similar terms within the western Roman Empire before concluding (quite wrongly) that Catholicism views the Pope as replacing Christ or been in any sense equal to him. As to talk of upside down crosses been evil, surely we can do better than that here? The real reason why the Petrine cross is upside down has been pointed out.

In actual fact the Petrine cross would display exactly why the Pope is not to be regarded as in any way equal to Christ. As pointed out the cross exists because of the tradition that Peter was crucified upside down at his request as he did not wish to be crucified in the manner of Christ as he felt unworthy to be martyred in such a manner.

[Schultz]

The RC's believe the Pope is in place of God.

As Wyatt pointed out, the RCs believe in no such thing.  Even the most ultramontane Roman Catholic would never say such a thing.

[stashko]

IF Only I could find the Pronouncments of some of the Popes, and post them here,that  did declare themselves god on Earth, even Calling on the name of Christ won't save a person ,once a pope declared them damned.....

Hopefully Fr. Ambrose will see this thread and post them.......  

[Wyatt]

IF Only I could find the Pronouncments of some the Popes, and post them here,that  did declare themselves god on Earth, even Calling on the name of Christ won't save a person ,once a pope declared them damned.....

Hopefully Fr. Ambrose will see this thread and post them.......  

Good thing we don't take every word that every Pope says to be infallible then.

[podkarpatska]

The RC's believe the Pope is in place of God.

As Wyatt pointed out, the RCs believe in no such thing.  Even the most ultramontane Roman Catholic would never say such a thing.

Quite true, I place the blame for such continuing misinformation upon politically motivated propaganda during past centuries in East Europe and upon untrained, well-meaning but ignorant polemicists and apologists over the centuries.

There are plenty of serious and real differences between the Church of Rome and the Orthodox, but this is not one of them. We can never focus upon and come to understand our true divisions while we remain off target on both sides. The discussions here often point out that both sides have a chasm of false understandings about the teachings and faith of the other side.

Unfortunately, at least as I see it on this forum, I often see me and my fellow Orthodox like Schultz standing up and correcting these false statements about Roman Catholicism, while I do not see some of our Roman apologists doing the same when an equally egregious falsehood about Orthodoxy is used as point of argument. It is tough to maintain an honest dialog under such conditions.

[stashko]

IF Only I could find the Pronouncments of some the Popes, and post them here,that  did declare themselves god on Earth, even Calling on the name of Christ won't save a person ,once a pope declared them damned.....

Hopefully Fr. Ambrose will see this thread and post them.......  

Good thing we don't take every word that every Pope says to be infallible then.

How does that saying Go , Damned if you do, Damned if You Don't..... seems like a no win situation......

[Jharek Carnelian]

The RC's believe the Pope is in place of God.

As Wyatt pointed out, the RCs believe in no such thing.  Even the most ultramontane Roman Catholic would never say such a thing.

Quite true, I place the blame for such continuing misinformation upon politically motivated propaganda during past centuries in East Europe and upon untrained, well-meaning but ignorant polemicists and apologists over the centuries.

There are plenty of serious and real differences between the Church of Rome and the Orthodox, but this is not one of them. We can never focus upon and come to understand our true divisions while we remain off target on both sides. The discussions here often point out that both sides have a chasm of false understandings about the teachings and faith of the other side.

Unfortunately, at least as I see it on this forum, I often see me and my fellow Orthodox like Schultz standing up and correcting these false statements about Roman Catholicism, while I do not see some of our Roman apologists doing the same when an equally egregious falsehood about Orthodoxy is used as point of argument. It is tough to maintain an honest dialog under such conditions.

I would like to think that if anyone made such a false claim about the Orthodox I would equally not let it pass either. I am glad to see you and a few others here willing to discuss real areas of disagreement than engaging in what is (as you yourself called it) polemics about antiChrists etc etc. I have seen this thrown out from the other side and I think every Catholic who has done it ought to wander in here for a bit and see just how unpleasant it is when they are on the receiving end.

[Peter J]

Why did the Pope change from -

The vicar of Peter
to
The vicar of Christ?

Vicar means "in place of" for those who don't know.

To make yourself as God, is satanic.
Lucifer did this in Isaiah 14, when he cast himself as God.
Masons do this when they call the "lodge" leader "worshipful master".
Satanists make themselves Gods until themselves.
Atheists make themselves Gods since they follow their own will.

To be "in place of Christ", as the Pope is said to be, don't you find the notion rather satanic?

Not to be a back-seat poster, but I think you should have started two separate threads: one to call the pope "satanic" and one to talk about the title Vicar of Christ.

Well I felt that calling somebody in place of God is rather Satanic, that's why I linked them together.

There is no place for a man to replace God, and if a man thinks he's in place of God, he's doing as Lucifer did in Isaiah 14

It's just a little hard to take you seriously when you compare the pope to satanists. No offense.

[Peter J]

IF Only I could find the Pronouncments of some the Popes, and post them here,that  did declare themselves god on Earth, even Calling on the name of Christ won't save a person ,once a pope declared them damned.....

Hopefully Fr. Ambrose will see this thread and post them.......  

Good thing we don't take every word that every Pope says to be infallible then.

How does that saying Go , Damned if you do, Damned if You Don't..... seems like a no win situation......

I think it's more a case of Damned if you do, Darned if you don't.

[Wyatt]

IF Only I could find the Pronouncments of some the Popes, and post them here,that  did declare themselves god on Earth, even Calling on the name of Christ won't save a person ,once a pope declared them damned.....

Hopefully Fr. Ambrose will see this thread and post them.......  

Good thing we don't take every word that every Pope says to be infallible then.

How does that saying Go , Damned if you do, Damned if You Don't..... seems like a no win situation......

How so?

[Irish Hermit]

The RC's believe the Pope is in place of God.

More than one petrine incarnation has come close to it.

There is Pope Leo XIII....

“...We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty..."

 Pope Leo XIII, in "Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae", Encyclical, June 1894.

[Wyatt]

The RC's believe the Pope is in place of God.

More than one petrine incarnation has come close to it.

There is Pope Leo XIII....

“...We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty..."

 Pope Leo XIII, in "Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae", Encyclical, June 1894.

I have heard it explained that "vicar" means like ambassador or representative. The title "Vicar of Christ" does not seem scandalous when you consider this meaning since, really, all Bishops are to represent Christ to their flock.

[Jharek Carnelian]

The word comes from Vicarious and means a deputy or substitute. It had a particular meaning in the late Roman Empire at an organisation level. Unfortunately some of the information regarding the subject thus far in this thread seems to have more in common with Chick tract versions of history.

[Wyatt]

The word comes from Vicarious and means a deputy or substitute. It had a particular meaning in the late Roman Empire at an organisation level. Unfortunately some of the information regarding the subject thus far in this thread seems to have more in common with Chick tract versions of history.

It's like I have said before, when people have to either distort the truth or outright lie about us in order to "win" an argument, it makes you wonder how solid of a case they really have. The fact that people have to perpetuate misconceptions about the Catholic Church rather than having honest, legitimate objections to the Church seems to indicate that we are, in fact, the true Church.

[Jharek Carnelian]

Ah now I wouldn't go as far as that  Wyatt. I've seen many a Catholic distort facts about the Orthodox as well in my day. I also view the Orthodox as a part of the true Church (albeit seperated from us at this moment) although the Orthodox neither need nor would wish for my reccomendation in that regard.

[Wyatt]

Ah now I wouldn't go as far as that  Wyatt. I've seen many a Catholic distort facts about the Orthodox as well in my day. I also view the Orthodox as a part of the true Church (albeit seperated from us at this moment) although the Orthodox neither need nor would wish for my reccomendation in that regard.

I agree that they are somehow part of the Church since our Church believes they have valid Sacraments and Apostolic Succession, but they are wounded by not being in full communion with us.

[Jharek Carnelian]

They would reply I would think that those are your concerns rather than theirs. I came to this site as an inquirer into Orthodoxy actually as my spouse is Orthodox. I have found the site to be mixed bag but then I could say the same about all the Catholic sites I've used. There are some posters outlooks which concern but I suspect they represent fringe views much as you get such elements on Catholic forums.

[J Michael]

The word comes from Vicarious and means a deputy or substitute. It had a particular meaning in the late Roman Empire at an organisation level. Unfortunately some of the information regarding the subject thus far in this thread seems to have more in common with Chick tract versions of history.

It's like I have said before, when people have to either distort the truth or outright lie about us in order to "win" an argument, it makes you wonder how solid of a case they really have. The fact that people have to perpetuate misconceptions about the Catholic Church rather than having honest, legitimate objections to the Church seems to indicate that we are, in fact, the true Church.

And then there are those who just love to bash Catholics and find any excuse and every opportunity to do so.  I'm sure there are people who love to bash Orthodox but I've seen and heard far more of the former than the latter.  Either way, though, there's really no excuse for it.  If you don't understand something, it's easy enough to ask in a way that doesn't deprecate the other. 

Whatever happened to, "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all?"  Or, Mt. 12:36--"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."?

[WetCatechumen]

The RC's believe the Pope is in place of God.

More than one petrine incarnation has come close to it.

There is Pope Leo XIII....

“...We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty..."

 Pope Leo XIII, in "Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae", Encyclical, June 1894.

Yes, Father, but so do you in your own parish whenever you celebrate liturgy or act in a priestly function. At least that is my understand of Catholic Ecclesiology. The Pope just acts as the Vicar of Christ for the entire Church.

[podkarpatska]

The word comes from Vicarious and means a deputy or substitute. It had a particular meaning in the late Roman Empire at an organisation level. Unfortunately some of the information regarding the subject thus far in this thread seems to have more in common with Chick tract versions of history.

It's like I have said before, when people have to either distort the truth or outright lie about us in order to "win" an argument, it makes you wonder how solid of a case they really have. The fact that people have to perpetuate misconceptions about the Catholic Church rather than having honest, legitimate objections to the Church seems to indicate that we are, in fact, the true Church.

Using a negative to prove a positive? I don't think the Jesuit Fathers taught you 'intro to logic 101'. Stupid polemics are stupid polemics my friend, comments like you made make it tough to restrain the extremists.

[podkarpatska]

They would reply I would think that those are your concerns rather than theirs. I came to this site as an inquirer into Orthodoxy actually as my spouse is Orthodox. I have found the site to be mixed bag but then I could say the same about all the Catholic sites I've used. There are some posters outlooks which concern but I suspect they represent fringe views much as you get such elements on Catholic forums.

Thank you for your insight.

[JamesRottnek]

Vicar is a term used to refer to someone who serves in the place of (or on behalf of) someone else while they are away.  As such, saying you are the Vicar of Christ is essentially saying Christ has gone on a trip and has left his Church behind while he does so.  In essence, it denies the headship of Christ over the Church (at least as anything other than honorary), and in that respect is a serious problem, IMO.

[Papist]

Vicar is a term used to refer to someone who serves in the place of (or on behalf of) someone else while they are away.  As such, saying you are the Vicar of Christ is essentially saying Christ has gone on a trip and has left his Church behind while he does so.  In essence, it denies the headship of Christ over the Church (at least as anything other than honorary), and in that respect is a serious problem, IMO.

No it doesn't, because the Pope is subject to Christ. Y'all are grasping at staws.

[Papist]

The RC's believe the Pope is in place of God.

More than one petrine incarnation has come close to it.

There is Pope Leo XIII....

“...We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty..."

 Pope Leo XIII, in "Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae", Encyclical, June 1894.

Yes, Father, but so do you in your own parish whenever you celebrate liturgy or act in a priestly function. At least that is my understand of Catholic Ecclesiology. The Pope just acts as the Vicar of Christ for the entire Church.

Don't ever confuse Fr. Ambrose with the facts.

[Wyatt]

Vicar is a term used to refer to someone who serves in the place of (or on behalf of) someone else while they are away.  As such, saying you are the Vicar of Christ is essentially saying Christ has gone on a trip and has left his Church behind while he does so.  In essence, it denies the headship of Christ over the Church (at least as anything other than honorary), and in that respect is a serious problem, IMO.

Well, Christ has ascended to the right hand of the Father, but He is simultaneously with His Church in all the tabernacles of the world because, since He is God, He is not limited by time and space. The Holy Spirit guides the Pope and Bishops and prevents the Church from falling into error.

[Punch]

The Holy Spirit guides the Pope and Bishops and prevents the Church from falling into error.

Well, he either has not done a very good job of it, or it is a different spirit guiding your pope.  I am going with the latter.

[Wyatt]

Well, he either has not done a very good job of it, or it is a different spirit guiding your pope.  I am going with the latter.

Or perhaps the spirit you are following desperately doesn't want you to encounter the Spirit we know.

[Papist]

Well, he either has not done a very good job of it, or it is a different spirit guiding your pope.  I am going with the latter.

Or perhaps the spirit you are following desperately doesn't want you to encounter the Spirit we know.

And the Spirit we know is the Spirit of God.

[Wyatt]

Well, he either has not done a very good job of it, or it is a different spirit guiding your pope.  I am going with the latter.

Or perhaps the spirit you are following desperately doesn't want you to encounter the Spirit we know.

And the Spirit we know is the Spirit of God.

Thanks be to God!

[Saint Iaint]

Well, he either has not done a very good job of it, or it is a different spirit guiding your pope.  I am going with the latter.

Or perhaps the spirit you are following desperately doesn't want you to encounter the Spirit we know.

Exactly.

Except you mixed up your capitalization... Here, let me fix that for ya:

The Holy Spirit we are following desperately doesn't want us to encounter the spirit you know.

Or... to paraphrase, 'I know you are but what am I?'

Ha,

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

[Wyatt]

Well, he either has not done a very good job of it, or it is a different spirit guiding your pope.  I am going with the latter.

Or perhaps the spirit you are following desperately doesn't want you to encounter the Spirit we know.

Exactly.

Except you mixed up your capitalization... Here, let me fix that for ya:

The Holy Spirit we are following desperately doesn't want us to encounter the spirit you know.

Or... to paraphrase, 'I know you are but what am I?'

Ha,

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

Well, the Spirit blows where it will, but I just can't say for certain how much of that breeze you all have been catching since the 11th century.

[Papist]

Well, he either has not done a very good job of it, or it is a different spirit guiding your pope.  I am going with the latter.

Or perhaps the spirit you are following desperately doesn't want you to encounter the Spirit we know.

Exactly.

Except you mixed up your capitalization... Here, let me fix that for ya:

The Holy Spirit we are following desperately doesn't want us to encounter the spirit you know.

Or... to paraphrase, 'I know you are but what am I?'

Ha,

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

I think you are a few posts behind on this one. But nice try buddy.

[Papist]

Well, he either has not done a very good job of it, or it is a different spirit guiding your pope.  I am going with the latter.

Or perhaps the spirit you are following desperately doesn't want you to encounter the Spirit we know.

Exactly.

Except you mixed up your capitalization... Here, let me fix that for ya:

The Holy Spirit we are following desperately doesn't want us to encounter the spirit you know.

Or... to paraphrase, 'I know you are but what am I?'

Ha,

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

Well, the Spirit blows where it will, but I just can't say for certain how much of that breeze you all have been catching since the 11th century.

It's been windy in the West.

[Wyatt]

Well, he either has not done a very good job of it, or it is a different spirit guiding your pope.  I am going with the latter.

Or perhaps the spirit you are following desperately doesn't want you to encounter the Spirit we know.

Exactly.

Except you mixed up your capitalization... Here, let me fix that for ya:

The Holy Spirit we are following desperately doesn't want us to encounter the spirit you know.

Or... to paraphrase, 'I know you are but what am I?'

Ha,

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

Well, the Spirit blows where it will, but I just can't say for certain how much of that breeze you all have been catching since the 11th century.

It's been windy in the West.

Oh yeah, and it's cool, refreshing, even graced.