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Offline henrikhankhagnell

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modern church?
« on: May 13, 2011, 08:11:22 PM »
how has your chuch been modernised in order to be a church for the people of the modern world? does the church even accept changes in liturgy?
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Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2011, 08:32:12 PM »
my Church has made a few changes:
-liturgy is all English
-there are several pews (although, to the dismay of the elderly, they are slowly moving out)
-in our Church, men and women may sit on whichever side they want.
-women are not required to cover their heads.

that's about it.  I LOVE my faith!  very little is it changed to cater to the general population.  I believe that this is largely due to our Church not being so convert-oriented.  we won't give door prizes or give your dog communion.  give us a year and a half and we'll think about baptizing you, if our hierarchy OK's the situation.

I really don't see anymore changes on the horizon.  one change I'd like to see is bringing non-chalcedonians back into communion with Holy Orthodoxy, but that's another post...  :)

Offline henrikhankhagnell

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2011, 08:51:39 PM »
-liturgy is all English
-there are several pews (although, to the dismay of the elderly, they are slowly moving out)
-in our Church, men and women may sit on whichever side they want.
-women are not required to cover their heads.

:'(  i love liturgical languages, women and men on different side and women covering their head (at least for communion) and pews make people lazy.
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Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2011, 09:07:59 PM »
-liturgy is all English
-there are several pews (although, to the dismay of the elderly, they are slowly moving out)
-in our Church, men and women may sit on whichever side they want.
-women are not required to cover their heads.

:'(  i love liturgical languages, women and men on different side and women covering their head (at least for communion) and pews make people lazy.

I agree.  I've just never seen that in a parish to appreciate it .  we do have a small group of pious Russians who keep this custom.

most women do cover their heads with something.  I agree, I love it, too and would like to see more of it.  be encouraged, though.  at Orthodox summer camp, nearly all of the girls covered their heads.  I think we'll see this more in the future.

when I say pews, I don't mean a forest of pews like the Greek Church down the street of mine has.  it seems like the Greeks sit for half the service!  we are slowly moving our pews to the walls of the Church and to be reserved only for the elderly.  we only use the pews during the sermon and after, Church announcements (although some not so nice-spirited older folks will sit even during the gospel  ::) )

Offline Alpo

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2011, 09:10:07 PM »
how has your chuch been modernised in order to be a church for the people of the modern world?

- Gregorian calendar
- Vernacular language
- Clean-shaven clergy. Many seem to have some kind of goatee or something though.
- With the permission of one's father confessor, people can partake the Eucharist without confessing beforehand. And the clergy are quite keen to give the permission.
- Royal doors are kept more open. At least for the diocese of Karelia, that is.
- Prayers are read aloud.
- Women doesn't need to cover their heads during prayer. Some do, but most don't.
- Women doesn't necessarily need to stand on the left and men doesn't necessarily need to stand on the right. In practice though the separation of sexes seem to prevail even though nobody enforces it anymore.
- Women actings as de facto lectors. They are not ordained though.
- Women can partake the Eucharist during menstruation
- General silence about more controversial issues.
- Ecumenism.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 09:16:50 PM by Alpo »

Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2011, 09:13:07 PM »
how has your chuch been modernised in order to be a church for the people of the modern world?

- Clean-shaven clergy. Many seem to have some kind of goatee or something though.


REALLY?!  I must say, I'm not a fan of this, at all.  I thought that clean-shaven priests were one of the new-fangled inventions of the Antiochians.

Offline Alpo

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2011, 09:26:33 PM »
REALLY?!  I must say, I'm not a fan of this, at all.  I thought that clean-shaven priests were one of the new-fangled inventions of the Antiochians.

As I said, many seem to have some kind of goatee but one rarely sees any longer beards. It's probably due to former decade's attemps to make the Church less Russian and more Finnish. Here's how the first archbishop of autonomous Finnish church looked like:

« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 09:29:36 PM by Alpo »

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2011, 09:28:07 PM »
how has your chuch been modernised in order to be a church for the people of the modern world?

- Clean-shaven clergy. Many seem to have some kind of goatee or something though.


REALLY?!  I must say, I'm not a fan of this, at all.  I thought that clean-shaven priests were one of the new-fangled inventions of the Antiochians.

The local Antiochian priest here doesn't have a beard, or even a goatee. Then again, he's unable to grow one, so maybe it can be forgiven.  Though now that I think about it, his bishop doesn't really have a beard either, he has this thing going on where it looks like he just forgot to shave for a week. The Metropolitan doesn't exactly sport a lot of facial hair either. So I guess, in a sense, it would be bad for the local priest to grow any facial hair whatsoever, as though he was trying to show up or be more pious than his bishops. Being clean shaven is thus a sign of obedience and faithfulness to one's bishops! ;D

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2011, 09:47:57 PM »
when I say pews, I don't mean a forest of pews like the Greek Church down the street of mine has.  it seems like the Greeks sit for half the service!  we are slowly moving our pews to the walls of the Church and to be reserved only for the elderly.  we only use the pews during the sermon and after, Church announcements (although some not so nice-spirited older folks will sit even during the gospel  ::) )

Be careful, Trevor.  You don't know how that person is feeling.  Maybe, they simply cannot stand that long.  We should be happy to see that they are at least in church, listening to the Gospel.

;)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2011, 09:51:21 PM »
Bi-'Khristos af-don-f!
how has your chuch been modernised in order to be a church for the people of the modern world?

Electricity (lighting).
Alarm (our relics have been stolen).
Indoor plumbing.
Electric stove.
We used to have a phone, but that was stolen. Most of us have cell phones.
Reproduced icons.
Acrylic icons.
Icons of St. John Kuchrov, St. John Maximovich, St. Elizabeth the Neo-Martyr.
Air conditioning.
A new heater.
A refrigerator.

does the church even accept changes in liturgy?
Yes, we pray for those who travel by air now.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2011, 09:52:43 PM »
does the church even accept changes in liturgy?
Yes, we pray for those who travel by air now.

Good one!
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2011, 09:54:47 PM »
how has your chuch been modernised in order to be a church for the people of the modern world?
- General silence about more controversial issues.
Like racism?  World poverty? The welfare state?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline John of the North

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2011, 10:02:30 PM »
REALLY?!  I must say, I'm not a fan of this, at all.  I thought that clean-shaven priests were one of the new-fangled inventions of the Antiochians.

While I support and prefer bearded clergy, it was at one time an innovation them to have a beard.
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Re: modern church?
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2011, 12:27:59 AM »
REALLY?!  I must say, I'm not a fan of this, at all.  I thought that clean-shaven priests were one of the new-fangled inventions of the Antiochians.

While I support and prefer bearded clergy, it was at one time an innovation them to have a beard.

The beard was never an innovation. I believe you are thinking of not cutting the hair, instead?
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2011, 12:37:11 AM »
how has your chuch been modernised in order to be a church for the people of the modern world?

- Clean-shaven clergy. Many seem to have some kind of goatee or something though.


REALLY?!  I must say, I'm not a fan of this, at all.  I thought that clean-shaven priests were one of the new-fangled inventions of the Antiochians.

God, I pray you are being ironic.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2011, 01:18:06 AM »
The Old Truest Orthodox are instituting the feast of the Precious and Life-Giving Beard to stop the madness of the shaved clergy.

Offline Sleeper

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2011, 01:19:11 AM »
Things God cares about: beards, pews, organs, and head-coverings. They are, if I understand the Fathers correctly, primarily what the Incarnation, Life, Death and Resurrection of Our Lord was about. Ultimately, fallen man needed to know what customs were to be taken on by God's people. Salvation, eternal destiny, the paths of our lives, these are what hang in the balance. So let us remember to keep the main things the main things.

In the words of the Apostle Paul, "Finally, brethren, whatever is coarse and curly, whatever furnishes our naves, whatever accompanies our singing, whatever adorns our noggins, think on these things."

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2011, 01:35:24 AM »
In the words of the Apostle Paul, "Finally, brethren, whatever is coarse and curly, whatever furnishes our naves, whatever accompanies our singing, whatever adorns our noggins, think on these things."

The reading is from the Epistle to the Modernists. Let us attend!

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2011, 02:01:45 AM »
"How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!... For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest—a sign of strength and rule."

"This, then, is the mark of the man, the beard. By this, he is seen to be a man. It is older than Eve. It is the token of the superior nature... It is therefore unholy to desecrate the symbol of manhood, hairiness."

St. Clement of Alexandria

« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 02:03:34 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2011, 03:27:07 AM »
how has your chuch been modernised in order to be a church for the people of the modern world?
- General silence about more controversial issues.
Like racism?  World poverty? The welfare state?

 ;D

Actually Finns are generally rather aware of those issues. I think I've even heard our hierarchs talking about those issues and condemn them. Finnish parishes have enviromental programs and some parishes use Fair Trade coffee during their coffee hours etc.

Offline Alpo

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2011, 04:12:06 AM »
Quote from: Alpo
- General silence about more controversial issues.
Quote from: ialmistry
...The welfare state?

 ;D

Actually Finns are generally rather aware of those issues. I think I've even heard our hierarchs talking about those issues and condemn them.


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Re: modern church?
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2011, 04:53:44 AM »
Quote from: Alpo
- General silence about more controversial issues.
Quote from: ialmistry
...The welfare state?

 ;D

Actually Finns are generally rather aware of those issues. I think I've even heard our hierarchs talking about those issues and condemn them.



This is fake! Is outrage!

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What the?...

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Offline henrikhankhagnell

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2011, 07:54:35 AM »
The reading is from the Epistle to the Modernists. Let us attend!
too bad we only get to read the old epistles!

Things God cares about: beards, pews, organs, and head-coverings. They are, if I understand the Fathers correctly, primarily what the Incarnation, Life, Death and Resurrection of Our Lord was about. Ultimately, fallen man needed to know what customs were to be taken on by God's people. Salvation, eternal destiny, the paths of our lives, these are what hang in the balance. So let us remember to keep the main things the main things.

In the words of the Apostle Paul, "Finally, brethren, whatever is coarse and curly, whatever furnishes our naves, whatever accompanies our singing, whatever adorns our noggins, think on these things."
???

- Gregorian calendar
why ???

- Royal doors are kept more open. At least for the diocese of Karelia, that is.
royal doors? ??? can doors be royal? ???

- Prayers are read aloud.
you mean, the whole liturgy was prayed in silence in the good old days? ???
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Offline henrikhankhagnell

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2011, 09:33:53 AM »
about the coptic chuch here in Stockholm, Sweden:
they have made some changes that may not occur in the monasteries (i have not visited a monastery)
- Pews (makes metania more difficult)
- a projector and a screen with translation (of most prayers)
- wearing shoes in church (but no shoes for altar service and priests wear altar shoes)
- on holy week the moring prayers starts 11 am instead of 6 am and then all morning prayers are said.
- people talking in church after liturgy (but no priest like this)

about roman-catholic church:
some changes (but it's too difficult to know)
- most priests facing congregation (versus populum) instead of ad orientem
- pews (i think the most ancient european churches did not have pews but i don't know. some say celtic christianity was very much like the coptic so maybe some churches hated pews)
- wearing shoes in church (can't even imagine St peter with shoes inside a church. maybe he would wear special priest shoes)
- organ in church (gregorian music for example is best sung acapella) and some people even playing guitar at mass
- not many priest wearing hats anymore
- no mass in latin (but greek was the original language)



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Offline Sleeper

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2011, 09:52:05 AM »
"How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!... For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest—a sign of strength and rule."

"This, then, is the mark of the man, the beard. By this, he is seen to be a man. It is older than Eve. It is the token of the superior nature... It is therefore unholy to desecrate the symbol of manhood, hairiness."

St. Clement of Alexandria



I almost made it through the whole quote, but was distracted by revving the engine to my 4x4 whilst flexing my pectoral muscles (which is a bit hard to see through all that glorious chest hair, but I make it work). I'll finish reading it later when I get back from my hunting trip.

Offline Agabus

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2011, 10:26:43 AM »
my Church has made a few changes:
-liturgy is all English
If this is a modernization now, it was a modernization when the liturgy was translated for the Slavs.

Orthodox Witness: a tradition of compromise!  ;)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 10:29:36 AM by Agabus »
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Offline sainthieu

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2011, 10:50:08 AM »
Modern? What is this word of which you speak?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 10:52:44 AM by sainthieu »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2011, 10:57:37 AM »
"How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!... For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest—a sign of strength and rule."

"This, then, is the mark of the man, the beard. By this, he is seen to be a man. It is older than Eve. It is the token of the superior nature... It is therefore unholy to desecrate the symbol of manhood, hairiness."

St. Clement of Alexandria



And?
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2011, 10:58:00 AM »
Things God cares about: beards, pews, organs, and head-coverings. They are, if I understand the Fathers correctly, primarily what the Incarnation, Life, Death and Resurrection of Our Lord was about. Ultimately, fallen man needed to know what customs were to be taken on by God's people. Salvation, eternal destiny, the paths of our lives, these are what hang in the balance. So let us remember to keep the main things the main things.

In the words of the Apostle Paul, "Finally, brethren, whatever is coarse and curly, whatever furnishes our naves, whatever accompanies our singing, whatever adorns our noggins, think on these things."

Nice.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2011, 10:59:58 AM »
"How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!... For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest—a sign of strength and rule."

"This, then, is the mark of the man, the beard. By this, he is seen to be a man. It is older than Eve. It is the token of the superior nature... It is therefore unholy to desecrate the symbol of manhood, hairiness."

St. Clement of Alexandria



I almost made it through the whole quote, but was distracted by revving the engine to my 4x4 whilst flexing my pectoral muscles (which is a bit hard to see through all that glorious chest hair, but I make it work). I'll finish reading it later when I get back from my hunting trip.

Sleeper are you about to make it into my list of posters to watch for . . .
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Offline Alpo

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2011, 11:19:12 AM »
- Gregorian calendar
why ???

*shrugs*

I don't know. Possibly it was demanded by the state of Finland in order to get official recognition as another national church. Possibly it was because people wanted to make the Church less Russian.

Quote
you mean, the whole liturgy was prayed in silence in the good old days? ???

 ;D

Nope. Just some specific prayers of the priest. Nowadays some seem to argue that it is theologically more correct to chant them aloud rather than silently.

Frankly, I don't bother my mind with these issues. I view them as deviation from the more traditional practice and I rather followed the more tradition policy but at least I can work out my salvation in an Orthodox church in a regularly scheduled services which are celebrated in my own language. Not all have that kind of luxury. It's not my job to judge people just because they seem to uphold some incorrect opinions. It's a little weird when some try to reinvent the wheel so-to-speak but to each his own.

Btw, this is the most hilarious thread I've ever read on OC.net. ;D

Offline ialmisry

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2011, 11:51:01 AM »
Christ is risen!
"How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!... For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest—a sign of strength and rule."

"This, then, is the mark of the man, the beard. By this, he is seen to be a man. It is older than Eve. It is the token of the superior nature... It is therefore unholy to desecrate the symbol of manhood, hairiness."

St. Clement of Alexandria


I got more hair.
Unfortunately the baptismal font did not wash St. Clement clear of the hair fetish and semen worship of Stoicism.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline orthonorm

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2011, 12:06:17 PM »
Unfortunately the baptismal font did not wash St. Clement clear of the hair fetish and semen worship of Stoicism.

I want to publish a Commentary on the Lives of the Saints by you with these sorta one-liners for each Saint.



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Offline Marc1152

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2011, 12:13:07 PM »
"How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!... For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest—a sign of strength and rule."

"This, then, is the mark of the man, the beard. By this, he is seen to be a man. It is older than Eve. It is the token of the superior nature... It is therefore unholy to desecrate the symbol of manhood, hairiness."

St. Clement of Alexandria



I almost made it through the whole quote, but was distracted by revving the engine to my 4x4 whilst flexing my pectoral muscles (which is a bit hard to see through all that glorious chest hair, but I make it work). I'll finish reading it later when I get back from my hunting trip.

I copied the first quote and sent it to my wife  ;D
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2011, 12:15:24 PM »
Quote
For God wished women to be smooth

I've met quite a few women regarding where this wasn't true. Ah well, blame it on the fall I guess.  ;)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 12:15:48 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2011, 01:56:09 PM »
And?
Well, CLEARLY I'm implying that grooming is a betrayal of the faith that ought to warrant anathemas. ;)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 01:56:19 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline biro

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2011, 02:44:55 PM »
"How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!... For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest—a sign of strength and rule."

"This, then, is the mark of the man, the beard. By this, he is seen to be a man. It is older than Eve. It is the token of the superior nature... It is therefore unholy to desecrate the symbol of manhood, hairiness."

St. Clement of Alexandria


So why do people cut the hair on the back of their heads? Is that somehow less manly?

 ???

I've got plenty of icons with male saints who are clean-shaven. Also, if a man contracted lice and had to shave for medical reasons, I don't think this would affect his holiness.  ::)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 02:45:25 PM by biro »
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Offline henrikhankhagnell

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2011, 03:34:09 PM »
any oriental orthodox?
searching for the church that is both catholic and orthodox...

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2011, 03:42:26 PM »
any oriental orthodox?
Well, if one considers odd realism a modernization, this coptic cathedral's strange semi-realism icon where Christ is holding an Earth in one hand could be considered one. And they're using microphones and electric lights too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVFgnHHOWHc

The liturgy itself is beautiful, btw.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 03:43:16 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline henrikhankhagnell

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2011, 03:52:29 PM »
any oriental orthodox?
Well, if one considers odd realism a modernization, this coptic cathedral's strange semi-realism icon where Christ is holding an Earth in one hand could be considered one. And they're using microphones and electric lights too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVFgnHHOWHc

The liturgy itself is beautiful, btw.
pantokrator icon?
yes, copts seem to love microphones.
but why is this liturgy so short? is this because they don't have a homily? or what?
searching for the church that is both catholic and orthodox...

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: modern church?
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2011, 04:15:08 PM »
pantokrator icon?
The pantokrator icon featuring a realistic-looking Christ holding an earth globe, yes.


but why is this liturgy so short? is this because they don't have a homily? or what?
I believe the video only features a chunk of the full liturgy.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 04:15:25 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν