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Author Topic: Who are these guys?  (Read 1979 times) Average Rating: 0
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Andreas
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« on: June 06, 2004, 12:53:08 AM »

Who are the two men in the flash that are in real photos?

« Last Edit: June 06, 2004, 12:54:35 AM by Andreas » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2004, 01:02:06 AM »

The real photos are of Metropolitan Valentin (on the left) and Archbishop Gregory (to the right) of the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church.
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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2004, 01:05:15 AM »

Thanks. Smiley

Are they considered part of Canonical Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2004, 01:09:51 AM »

Thanks. Smiley

Are they considered part of Canonical Orthodoxy?

Most everyone outside of their group does not consider them to be canonical.
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2004, 01:11:40 AM »

Oh too bad. So are they the head of the ROCOR?

P.S. I have too many questions tonight. Cheesy
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2004, 07:38:24 AM »

ROAC in a nutshell
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2004, 01:06:51 PM »

Metropolitan Valentine was deposed by ROCOR for flagrant canonical violations such as starting his own quasi-synod in Russia, having himself appointed an Archbishop, etc.  Later he claimed the union with Metropolitan Cyprian of the TOC was the reason he left because they were "ecumenists."  All the while ROCOR had been in union with Serbia and Jerusalem, however, so that seems a little fishy.

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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2004, 01:10:42 PM »

Thanks, guys.
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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2004, 01:13:43 AM »

The AROC (ROAC) is actually nothing more than ROCOR's former parishes in Russia following the next logical step of Ukaze 362-- self-governance.  That's it.  ROCOR can say they removed Metr Valentine for "canonical violations" (and this can be disputed) but what it comes down to is this: the mission of the ROCOR was to restore Orthodoxy to Russia.  They did this in the FROC (Free Russian Orthodox Church).  Then they decided they wanted union with Moscow and tried to destroy the resurgent true Russian Church.

It didn't work.

AROC, which *is* the FROC, is here because the people of the Russian Church want Her there.  That simple.
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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2004, 01:16:21 AM »

The AROC (ROAC) is actually nothing more than ROCOR's former parishes in Russia following the next logical step of Ukaze 362-- self-governance.  That's it.  ROCOR can say they removed Metr Valentine for "canonical violations" (and this can be disputed) but what it comes down to is this: the mission of the ROCOR was to restore Orthodoxy to Russia.  They did this in the FROC (Free Russian Orthodox Church).  Then they decided they wanted union with Moscow and tried to destroy the resurgent true Russian Church.

It didn't work.

AROC, which *is* the FROC, is here because the people of the Russian Church want Her there.  That simple.

So now "union with Moscow", something which wasn't even discussed as a possibility until November of 2003 is the reason Valentin broke away in 1994?
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2004, 01:24:12 AM »

No, it was not directly stated.  But it was becoming clear in the way the Free Russians were being treated.  One of Abp Mark's (ROCOR) justifications for ending the "FROC experiment" for lack of a better word was that it would be better to work with "healthy elements" in the MP.  

And indeed, the ROCOR, in attempting to stop the speedy growth of a FROC it couldn't control anymore (after all, that really wasn't part of their mission)  violated canonical procedure in a number of different ways.

And that was all before 1994!

I would suggest the short history of the FROC by V. Moss for more information on that.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2004, 01:24:47 AM by Suaiden » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2004, 01:26:56 AM »

Archbishop Mark couldn't have ended FROC. Come on. Only the Synod could have. Bishop Valentine was just a flagrant violator of Church order.  He was deposed, end of story, then created a false "opposition to ecumenism" in order to justify his position and create his own Church. He ordained bishops without the permission of the Synod and hence was under the canonical penalties of such an action: deposition.

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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2004, 01:42:03 AM »

I didn't say he *ended* it.  I said that such was his clear intent.  Metr Valentine not only attempted to contact Synod to no avail but continued commemorating ROCOR for two years.  BTW, those episcopal consecrations were never condemned by the ROCOR until much later.  Check your facts.

The "opposition to ecumenism" was not just "made up": ROCOR held the exact same position. See their position on the FROC, 1990, on orthodoxinfo.com
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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2004, 01:53:43 AM »

Joe Suaiden,

1) I will check the facts as you suggested.

2) Let me rephrase what I wrote. True, FROC was against ecumenism back in 1990. I should have said, "created a false pretext of ROCOR falling into ecumenism by joining with Metropolitan Cyprian."

At any rate, Bp Valentine had no right to leave his Synod for administrative reasons. Period.  And how could you really back up the assertion that he tried to contact ROCOR's Synod?

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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2004, 02:14:07 AM »

Since Bishop Valentine only joined ROCOR in 1991, then left in 1994(let's not forget that he rejoined again in 1994, after the union with the Cyprianites!), that gives a three year period for his consecrations. During this time Valentine was suspended by ROCOR until further investigation into the consecrations. The consecrations didn't end, so he was rightfully defrocked for disobeying Church orders. Three years is not a whole lot of time in the Church world.

What do you mean the "episcopal consecrations weren't comdemned until much later"? We're only dealing with a three year period of time here for consecrations to take place and ROCOR's reaction to be made, some of which Valentin spent suspended, which shows that action was taken. As has already been said, even if ROCOR had treated him a little roughly, is this a reason for schism? A crime which cannot even be cleansed through the blood of martyrdom?
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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2004, 02:16:01 AM »

If Bp Valentine consecrated those folks while he was suspended then that would explain why it took ROCOR time to respond.

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