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Author Topic: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?  (Read 22670 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #360 on: September 05, 2012, 09:14:40 PM »

Quote
Munkács
Diocese in Hungary, of Greek Catholic Rite, suffragan of Gran. It dates from the fifteenth century. Until then the Greek Ruthenians who had emigrated to Hungary a generation before, 1254, were subject to the See of Przemysl. In 1458 the Diocese of Munkács is mentioned for the first time in a document of King Mathias as a parish with episcopal jurisdiction. It was probably established between 1439 and 1458, as the document mentions that Lucas, the occupant of the see, had already exercised the usual jurisdiction for a considerable period. Its history is connected with that of the Basilian monastery at Csernekhegy near Munkács, established supposedly in 1360 by Duke Theodore Koriatovics, but demonstrably as late as 1418. The history of the diocese falls naturally into three periods. Until 1641, when union with Rome took place, Munkács endeavoured to extend its episcopal jurisdiction over the thirteen districts (Komitate) of Hungary, later its territory.
Nihil Obstat. October 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10634a.htm

That piece is based on the fact that Bishop Athanasius Krupeckyj of Peremysl exercised jurisdiction in parts of the county of Spis which were parts of the Polish Kingdom at that time. (Lacko 43-44)
Since he usurped the see of Bp. Michael Kopystynski of Peremysl and submitted to the Vatican, he shouldn't have been exercising jurisdiction in any part of the diocese.  On his jurisdiction, however:
Quote
The southern border of the Przemyśl diocese, along the peak of the Carpathian Mountains, was the State border between Poland and Hungary
Jacek Krochmal "Catholic-Orthodox Relations in the Diocese of Przemyśl" in Litauen und Ruthenien: Studien zu einer transkulturellen ...
 edited by Stefan Rohdewald, David A. Frick, Stefan Wiederkehr
http://books.google.com/books?id=iB8vTQZSSSkC&pg=PA215&lpg=PA215&dq=%22The+southern+border+of+the+PrzemySl+diocese,+along+the+peak+of+the+Carpathian+Mountains,+was+the+state+border+between+Poland+and+Hungary%22&source=bl&ots=1c_bn1XPpE&sig=vdX71tY3gGGLwyqnTbDQVsxKfgc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EOxHUMLpMYPdqgGYt4CIDQ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22The%20southern%20border%20of%20the%20PrzemySl%20diocese%2C%20along%20the%20peak%20of%20the%20Carpathian%20Mountains%2C%20was%20the%20state%20border%20between%20Poland%20and%20Hungary%22&f=false
The diocese of the successor of Bp. Kopystynski was larger, as
Quote
Unlike the Catholic Przemysl diocese, which was surrounded by other Catholic church administration units (albeit belonging to three different metropolitanates: Gniezno, Lviv, and Esztergom), the Orthodox Przemysl diocese was rather a border, or even peripheral diocese. It was a part of Kiev metropolitanate...in part, the southern borders of the Przemysl diocese were at the same time the borders of the Orthodox metropolitanate of Kiev, marking the boundary of Orthodox Settlements. The territory of the Przemysl Orthodox eparchy was larger than the Przemysl Catholic diocese by about 5.5 thousand km", as its area is estimated to be 23.6 thousand km . The differences in territory between the two religions resulted both from the boundaries of the Ruthenian, Lemko, and Wallachian Settlements, as well as from the lack of any other Orthodox Church administrative unit in the west...it went much further than the Catholic diocese in the south-western area.  This was related to Orthodox settlements in the Carpathian region (Lemko territories), which expanded westwards, into the southern part of Catholic Cracow diocese, reaching as far as Spis in Slovakia.  As a result, the western border of the Przemysl Orthodox diocese was about 70 km further west than the border of the Przemysl Catholic diocese.
http://books.google.com/books?id=iB8vTQZSSSkC&pg=PA215&lpg=PA215&dq=%22Unlike+the+Catholic+Przemysl+diocese,+which+was+surrounded%22&source=bl&ots=1c_bn1YOqD&sig=ustcuWTKperHtux_0J5OPdePsWg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ne9HUN-qEcG5rQHEiIEY&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Unlike%20the%20Catholic%20Przemysl%20diocese%2C%20which%20was%20surrounded%22&f=false
As Mukacheve, like Peremyshl, was clinging to Orthodoxy at the time, the history of this later is on point.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 09:15:46 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #361 on: September 05, 2012, 09:31:37 PM »

No deletion.  Your source refers to the bishops of Mukacevo receiving their consecration from the Metropolitan of Kiev as a fact, one that didn't apply after 1596, after which they received consecration from the Metropolitan of Moldavia (who had exercised jurisdiction in Galicia, and vice versa, at times).  Given that I gave at LENGTH the facts of the consecration of Petru Parfenii in 1651, i.e. after 1596, including the involvement of the Metropolitan of Moldavia, there was no reason to belabor that point when talking about the erection of the diocese and its prior history, which we know pre-dated 1596.

He is reporting wat Bishop Susza was saying.  The same bishop also claimed in 1665 that the See of Mukachevo was recently erected being under Peremysl 200 years ago.  Hondinka, who you cited earlier, reports a Luke being bishop around 1440.  Petrov thinks Luke was only an archimadrite and John was first bishop around 1490, where he came from nobody knows.  The record is silent again until 1551 when Ladislas is named, in 1606 Sergius, in 1623 Petronius, in 1627 John Gregorovic, in 1635 Basil Tarasovic.  My source also reports:
"The position of the eparchy of Mukachevo in respect of a metropolitan is not clear.  On the one hand, it never seems to have been strictly subject to any metropolitan, but on the other, there are indications of relations with the metropolitan See of Kiev, where it is very likely that its earliest bishops were consecrated.  It is, however, certain that in the seventeenth century before the union of Uzhorod it bishops were consecrated by the metropolitans of Moldavia"(Lacko 31).

That the Rusyns kept poor or no records is not surprising.  That Kyiv which has very good records never mentions Mukachevo until the unions started and in a bid to extend its authority does not add to its credibility.  The selection of the bishop also weighs against this.  The monks of St Nicholas and the priests voted for him or the Prince or Count appointed him, never is it mentioned that the Metropolitan or Synod of Kyiv did.
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« Reply #362 on: September 05, 2012, 09:44:21 PM »

No deletion.  Your source refers to the bishops of Mukacevo receiving their consecration from the Metropolitan of Kiev as a fact, one that didn't apply after 1596, after which they received consecration from the Metropolitan of Moldavia (who had exercised jurisdiction in Galicia, and vice versa, at times).  Given that I gave at LENGTH the facts of the consecration of Petru Parfenii in 1651, i.e. after 1596, including the involvement of the Metropolitan of Moldavia, there was no reason to belabor that point when talking about the erection of the diocese and its prior history, which we know pre-dated 1596.

He is reporting wat Bishop Susza was saying.
Poor use of quotation, or in choice of words, then.
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« Reply #363 on: September 05, 2012, 10:26:47 PM »

No deletion.  Your source refers to the bishops of Mukacevo receiving their consecration from the Metropolitan of Kiev as a fact, one that didn't apply after 1596, after which they received consecration from the Metropolitan of Moldavia (who had exercised jurisdiction in Galicia, and vice versa, at times).  Given that I gave at LENGTH the facts of the consecration of Petru Parfenii in 1651, i.e. after 1596, including the involvement of the Metropolitan of Moldavia, there was no reason to belabor that point when talking about the erection of the diocese and its prior history, which we know pre-dated 1596.

He is reporting wat Bishop Susza was saying.
Poor use of quotation, or in choice of words, then.

The point, however, is moot.
Quote
Further developments will prove that the relative confidence and gratitude, expressed by Philotheos towards the Polish king were not justified: the Polish conquest was soon followed with further development of the established Latin hierarchy in 'Little Russia' and with violent measures of discrimination against the Orthodox. However, Philotheos may well have been right in appointing Anthony [1371, as Metropolitan of Galicia], who, in spite of adverse circumstances, succeeded in maintaining the Orthodox faith in the region, and also in ordaining Orthodox bishops in neighbouring Moldavia, where Polish and Roman Catholic pressure was also strong and where a separate metropolitanate was established only in 1401...In 1397, however, [Ecumenical] Patriarch Anthony appointed Michael of Bethlehem - about whom we now learn that he was familiar with the Slavic language - as administrator of both Galicia and 'Mavrovalachia.'  He also asked King Jagiello to expel John Baba [the bishop of Lutsk named Metropolitan of Galica by King Jagiello, deposed on complaint of Met. Cyprian of Kiev to Constantinople] from Galicia, and to recognize the temporary authority of Michael of Bethlehem with the option of nominating another candidate for the Metropolitanate of Galicia. Meanwhile  Cyprian had made attempts to annex Galicia to the Metropolitanate of Kiev, and even to administer the see of Mavrovlachia. On these two points, he faced a rebuke from Anthony, who confirmed the decision of Patriarch Philotheos taken in 1370: both provinces, Mavrovlachia and Galicia, are to be administered by primates appointed in Constantinople, and not from Kiev or Moscow [where the Metropolitan of Kiev was resident]....The ecclesiastical affairs in 'Maurovlachia, or Moldavia were even more confused than in Galicia. Episcopal consecrations had been performed there by the Metropolitan of Galicia. In 1394, however, a Greek, Jeremiah, was appointed metropolitan by Constantinople, but was rejected by the local princes. A compromise solution was found only in 1401, when Joseph, one of the bishops previously consecrated in Halich and rejected by the patriarch, was appointed metropolitan by Patriarch Matthew
Byzantium and the Rise of Russia: A Study of Byzantino-Russian relations in the Forteenth Century By John Meyendorff
http://books.google.com/books?id=bFRXmG5GdkEC&pg=PA249&lpg=PA249&dq=Rise+of+Russia+Moldavia&source=bl&ots=8mk1rbo0EE&sig=ZWTEegZslvBa30JC5reWEtmqwE0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cQBIUNqyKsqArAG5oIG4BQ&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Rise%20of%20Russia%20Moldavia&f=false

Met. Cyrpian, however, got his way in the end, and the Metropolitanate of Galicia returned to the Metropolitanate of Kiev and All Rus'.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 10:29:13 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #364 on: September 06, 2012, 11:12:27 AM »

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« Reply #365 on: September 10, 2012, 12:25:58 PM »

Still, it is strange that ACROD gets a Greek bishop,

What is strange about an Orthodox diocese of Americans of Carpatho-Russian descent getting an American of Greek descent for bishop?
From the testimony of those here who know him well over the years, it is clear that he is neither arrogant nor a fool.


I can personally attest that Bishop-elect Gregorios is neither arrogant nor a fool. On the contrary, he is an intelligent, able, compassionate priest with an excellent sense of humor.
He does, however, hold heretical views on ACC vs. SEC football.  Wink
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« Reply #366 on: September 10, 2012, 12:35:38 PM »

Still, it is strange that ACROD gets a Greek bishop,

What is strange about an Orthodox diocese of Americans of Carpatho-Russian descent getting an American of Greek descent for bishop?
From the testimony of those here who know him well over the years, it is clear that he is neither arrogant nor a fool.


I can personally attest that Bishop-elect Gregorios is neither arrogant nor a fool. On the contrary, he is an intelligent, able, compassionate priest with an excellent sense of humor.
He does, however, hold heretical views on ACC vs. SEC football.  Wink

As you no doubt know, given that most of our faithful are from the Northeast and Mid-atlantic states, we were able to arrange for Pitt and Syracuse to join the ACC this coming year in honor of His Grace, the Bishop-elect! Smiley
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 12:36:32 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #367 on: September 10, 2012, 12:41:29 PM »

Still, it is strange that ACROD gets a Greek bishop,

What is strange about an Orthodox diocese of Americans of Carpatho-Russian descent getting an American of Greek descent for bishop?
From the testimony of those here who know him well over the years, it is clear that he is neither arrogant nor a fool.


I can personally attest that Bishop-elect Gregorios is neither arrogant nor a fool. On the contrary, he is an intelligent, able, compassionate priest with an excellent sense of humor.
He does, however, hold heretical views on ACC vs. SEC football.  Wink

As you no doubt know, given that most of our faithful are from the Northeast and Mid-atlantic states, we were able to arrange for Pitt and Syracuse to join the ACC this coming year in honor of His Grace, the Bishop-elect! Smiley



LOL! Priceless! Kiss
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« Reply #368 on: October 17, 2012, 04:54:44 AM »

Bishop-Elect Gregory Of Nyssa To Be Ordained to the Episcopacy November 27

http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/consecration-announcement
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« Reply #369 on: October 17, 2012, 11:00:40 AM »

Bishop-Elect Gregory Of Nyssa To Be Ordained to the Episcopacy November 27

http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/consecration-announcement


Axios! Many years!
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« Reply #370 on: November 27, 2012, 05:31:32 PM »

Bishop-elect Gregory was ordained "Bishop of Nyssa" and enthroned in the Christ the Saviour Cathedral of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese of the U.S.A., in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, today.  The ordaining hierarchs were Archbishop Demetrios of America, Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople (GOAA), Metropolitan Antony of Irinopolous, Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A., Metropolitan Alexios of Atlanta (GOAA), and Metropolitan Savas of Pittsburgh, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh-Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

"Axios," "Axios," "He is Worthy!"  

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« Reply #371 on: November 27, 2012, 09:57:42 PM »

Bishop Daniel of the Ukranian Church of the USA was also a concelebrating hierarch.

5 hierarchs (plus the newly-ordained), 9 priests (including yours truly), and 2 deacons concelebrated, with what appeared to be well over 100 other priests and deacons in attendance.
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« Reply #372 on: November 28, 2012, 05:36:44 AM »

Sad there were no non=EP bishops.
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« Reply #373 on: November 28, 2012, 09:38:14 AM »

Sad there were no non=EP bishops.
Why is it sad?
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« Reply #374 on: November 28, 2012, 01:51:02 PM »

Sad there were no non=EP bishops.
Why is it sad?

Orthodox unity and all that stuff.
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« Reply #375 on: November 28, 2012, 06:59:14 PM »

It doesn't make an exceptionally joyous event in the history of the diocese, the ordination and enthronement of their diocesan bishop, "sad."
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« Reply #376 on: November 28, 2012, 07:24:30 PM »

It doesn't make an exceptionally joyous event in the history of the diocese, the ordination and enthronement of their diocesan bishop, "sad."
Disturbing?
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« Reply #377 on: November 28, 2012, 07:32:55 PM »

Is Metropolitan Antony no longer "of Hierapolis" or whichever extinct city he supposedly belonged to when he was based in NYC?

Bishop-elect Gregory was ordained "Bishop of Nyssa" and enthroned in the Christ the Saviour Cathedral of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese of the U.S.A., in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, today.  The ordaining hierarchs were Archbishop Demetrios of America, Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople (GOAA), Metropolitan Antony of Irinopolous, Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A., Metropolitan Alexios of Atlanta (GOAA), and Metropolitan Savas of Pittsburgh, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh-Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

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« Reply #378 on: November 29, 2012, 12:40:44 AM »

It doesn't make an exceptionally joyous event in the history of the diocese, the ordination and enthronement of their diocesan bishop, "sad."
Disturbing?

Neither.
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« Reply #379 on: November 29, 2012, 01:05:16 AM »

Is Metropolitan Antony no longer "of Hierapolis" or whichever extinct city he supposedly belonged to when he was based in NYC?

Bishop-elect Gregory was ordained "Bishop of Nyssa" and enthroned in the Christ the Saviour Cathedral of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese of the U.S.A., in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, today.  The ordaining hierarchs were Archbishop Demetrios of America, Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople (GOAA), Metropolitan Antony of Irinopolous, Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A., Metropolitan Alexios of Atlanta (GOAA), and Metropolitan Savas of Pittsburgh, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh-Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

"Axios," "Axios," "He is Worthy!"  

"Ton Despotin, Ke Archierea imon, Kyrie Philate, Eis Polla Eti."  ("Our Master, and Archierarch, Protect him O Lord, for Many Years!")
Doesn't matter. Any titular see will do. I think only the Greek, i.e. the real hierarchy, are allowed sees where they actually are.

Axios! and Mnohaya Lyeta! in any case.
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« Reply #380 on: November 29, 2012, 04:46:01 AM »

Is Metropolitan Antony no longer "of Hierapolis" or whichever extinct city he supposedly belonged to when he was based in NYC?

Bishop-elect Gregory was ordained "Bishop of Nyssa" and enthroned in the Christ the Saviour Cathedral of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese of the U.S.A., in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, today.  The ordaining hierarchs were Archbishop Demetrios of America, Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople (GOAA), Metropolitan Antony of Irinopolous, Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A., Metropolitan Alexios of Atlanta (GOAA), and Metropolitan Savas of Pittsburgh, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh-Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

"Axios," "Axios," "He is Worthy!"  

"Ton Despotin, Ke Archierea imon, Kyrie Philate, Eis Polla Eti."  ("Our Master, and Archierarch, Protect him O Lord, for Many Years!")

"Irenoupolis" (I'm not spelling it correctly) is the titular see in which Metropolitan Constantine, of Blessed Memory, served while he held the primacy of the UOC-USA, and to which Metropolitan Antony was assigned when he was elevated to the primacy.
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« Reply #381 on: November 29, 2012, 11:21:32 AM »

Titles - schmitles ---- the measure of a man is how he acts, not what he is called or addressed by.

His Grace, Gregory was installed as ruling Bishop of the Carpatho-Russian Diocese. Having been a part of this little, but successful Diocese of hard scrapple descendents of miners,mill workers, teamsters and shoemakers, for all of my life I can honestly state that none of our Bishops have ever acted as anything less than a ruling Bishop of a properly formulated diocese. This goes to their relationships with the exarchs of the EP over the decades. We fully expect that to be case with our new hierarch. Our Ukrainian brothers, although not under the omophor of the EP for as long as the Carpatho-Russians, would likely tell the same story. The whole 'titular' issue is something of a red herring - to the Greeks I suppose it is an intellectual method to justify installing a Bishop in a non-geographical unit. Install him as a Bishop of a now non-existent see and 'assign' him to rule a distant group almost in a  diplomatic-like status  and - voila - you 'get around' the niceties of canon law. To some within the OCA and elsewhere, I suppose it is viewed as an intrusion on 'their' prerogatives. I suspect that in the eyes of our Lord, such matters are of little consequence in the 'big picture' of things.

Upon the presentation of the Pastoral Staff the Archbishop offered this prayer: ' Receive this Staff to shepherd the flock of Christ entrusted to you. To the obedient let it be a help and a support. With it, lead the disobedient and the wayward to admonishment and instruction.' Upon the setting of the Mitre on his head, this prayer: 'The Lord has set upon your head a crown of precious stones. You ask like of Him and He gave you length of days, always, now ane ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.' Bishop Gregory is vested with all of the power and responsibility of a diocesan Bishop with respect to the Carpatho-Russians.

I don't really 'know' Bishop Gregory having only met him briefly on two occasions. However, I have trust in the judgment of the men who having at length met him, discussed the challenges he faced, considered the strengths he offered us before submitted us him name and I trust in God's providence. Having heard him preach several times, having heard him speak about being a priest and what it means to him and seeing him interact with hundreds of strangers to him on a most remarkable and extremely long day, I am confident he is the right man in the right time.

If an American man, educated in the secular higher education system and the religious one, who is a monk, a pastor, an accomplished preacher and youth leader can not succeed due to his 'ethnicity' than we are doomed - not just my little diocese, but our Holy Orthodox Church on this continent. I have no doubt have measured him up based on my experiences with him and the words of others - including Fr. George of this forum - that he is up to the job and he will make his mark not just on the Carpatho-Russians, but on all of the Orthodox.

Axios! Many years, Vladyka!

(A bit of historical accuracy is needed, on another website, much was made about the symbolism of the choice of Nyssa as the titular see of the new bishop. For the record, Bishop Gregory is the second ACROD hierarch assigned the honor of this most ancient of sees. His Grace, Bishop John of thrice blessed memory was the first to hold this see from 1966 though his passing in 1984. The priest's wife interviewed by channel 6 is most certainly a Carpatho-Russian, being a native of Johnstown and the Cathedral. This is how misinformation is spread - publish it and it gains a life of its own.  As to the OCA not being invited - well , in a perfect world I would agree that all local bishops - including the ROCOR and Antiochian - should have been present, but we are where we are in this life. Perhaps in my lifetime such will be the norm. Anyway, the relationship between the Metropolia/OCA and ACROD has always been historically awkward - not so much on the parish to parish level but on the 'higher ups.' After all, the founders of ACROD refused to go under the omophor of the Russian influenced groups back in 1937 and a fair amount of parish swapping used to be the norm. As to the presence of non-Orthodox guests - all were personal friends of the late Metropolitan and the Carpatho-Russians and the Byzantine Catholic hierarchs have been attending their respective ceremonial events for about the past ten years in an effort to bury the enmity of the past. They played no role in the ceremony or the banquet but they were present as a sign of mutual respect. I suspect that upon the enthronement of Metropolitan Tikhon similar invitations to non-Orthodox have been extended. Finally as to the Archons, it is NOT a requirement that money be presented to the EP in exchange for the honor - at least among the Carpatho-Russian and Ukrainian Archons - very few of them are 'deep pocket' men but all from ACROD have been generous with their time, energy and money to the ACROD and her parishes - not the Archdiocese. I know five of them from my parish and the neighboring parish, and the idea that they could have given generously in cash to Constantinople is laughable - for one thing their wives would have chased them with a broom if they tried such a thing!)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 11:39:58 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #382 on: November 29, 2012, 01:29:03 PM »

ACROD operates under the authority of its charter that was approved by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and grants full canonical authority for diocesan governance to ACROD.
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« Reply #383 on: December 03, 2012, 11:31:48 AM »

If an American man, educated in the secular higher education system and the religious one, who is a monk, a pastor, an accomplished preacher and youth leader can not succeed due to his 'ethnicity' than we are doomed - not just my little diocese, but our Holy Orthodox Church on this continent. I have no doubt have measured him up based on my experiences with him and the words of others - including Fr. George of this forum - that he is up to the job and he will make his mark not just on the Carpatho-Russians, but on all of the Orthodox....

Axios! Many years, Vladyka!




Amen! Of course, I am not at all objective, having known His Grace and worked with him for several years. He is indeed the right man at the right time. May God bless his ministry and the clergy and Faithful of ACROD.
(P.S. we certainly will miss him!)
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« Reply #384 on: December 04, 2012, 12:05:57 PM »

Titles - schmitles ---- the measure of a man is how he acts, not what he is called or addressed by.

His Grace, Gregory was installed as ruling Bishop of the Carpatho-Russian Diocese. Having been a part of this little, but successful Diocese of hard scrapple descendents of miners,mill workers, teamsters and shoemakers, for all of my life I can honestly state that none of our Bishops have ever acted as anything less than a ruling Bishop of a properly formulated diocese. This goes to their relationships with the exarchs of the EP over the decades. We fully expect that to be case with our new hierarch. Our Ukrainian brothers, although not under the omophor of the EP for as long as the Carpatho-Russians, would likely tell the same story. The whole 'titular' issue is something of a red herring - to the Greeks I suppose it is an intellectual method to justify installing a Bishop in a non-geographical unit. Install him as a Bishop of a now non-existent see and 'assign' him to rule a distant group almost in a  diplomatic-like status  and - voila - you 'get around' the niceties of canon law. To some within the OCA and elsewhere, I suppose it is viewed as an intrusion on 'their' prerogatives. I suspect that in the eyes of our Lord, such matters are of little consequence in the 'big picture' of things.
There's a bigger picture all right.  I lay aside the prerogatives, i.e. jurisdiction, of the OCA aside, as obvious.

Johnstown is real town that exists in reality.  It has real Orthodox who live in it and the surrounding area in reality.  A real diocese in reality.  That reality can be admitted, finally, by the powers that be, in Pittsburgh, why not in Johnstown?

His grace has a brother bishop in Pittsburgh, in Boston, in Chicago, New York, Detroit, Denver, Atlanta, San Francisco, New Jersey, New York-just to go by the "real" hierarchy.  Enough for a Holy Synod. And not a "Holy Synod" as delineated in the charter imposed, er, granted, by the Phanar to its exarchate, i.e. the "real hierarchy of North America," to wit, a pan-continental ethnic club caught in a time warp acting as a colonial office or Congregation of the Eastern Churches [in the West] and a curia rather than a "Holy Synod."

Canonically, it is the successful diocese which is non-existent, a status maintained by shuffling it under bishops of various abandoned sees, rather than its real, inhabited, see.

And how does the Phanar come under the condemnation of its own phyletist synod of 1870, setting up a Church on an ethnic basis? And one on top of others to boot?

"From the rising to the setting of the sun the name of the Lord shall be praised."  The sun doesn't rise in Constantinople, nor does it set in Athens.  "All nations" means just that.  There are no Supreme Mothers and perpetual daughters in the Church (if there were, Constantinople would be in trouble).  That's the big picture.
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« Reply #385 on: December 04, 2012, 12:18:25 PM »

Titles - schmitles ---- the measure of a man is how he acts, not what he is called or addressed by.

His Grace, Gregory was installed as ruling Bishop of the Carpatho-Russian Diocese. Having been a part of this little, but successful Diocese of hard scrapple descendents of miners,mill workers, teamsters and shoemakers, for all of my life I can honestly state that none of our Bishops have ever acted as anything less than a ruling Bishop of a properly formulated diocese. This goes to their relationships with the exarchs of the EP over the decades. We fully expect that to be case with our new hierarch. Our Ukrainian brothers, although not under the omophor of the EP for as long as the Carpatho-Russians, would likely tell the same story. The whole 'titular' issue is something of a red herring - to the Greeks I suppose it is an intellectual method to justify installing a Bishop in a non-geographical unit. Install him as a Bishop of a now non-existent see and 'assign' him to rule a distant group almost in a  diplomatic-like status  and - voila - you 'get around' the niceties of canon law. To some within the OCA and elsewhere, I suppose it is viewed as an intrusion on 'their' prerogatives. I suspect that in the eyes of our Lord, such matters are of little consequence in the 'big picture' of things.
There's a bigger picture all right.  I lay aside the prerogatives, i.e. jurisdiction, of the OCA aside, as obvious.

Johnstown is real town that exists in reality.  It has real Orthodox who live in it and the surrounding area in reality.  A real diocese in reality.  That reality can be admitted, finally, by the powers that be, in Pittsburgh, why not in Johnstown?

His grace has a brother bishop in Pittsburgh, in Boston, in Chicago, New York, Detroit, Denver, Atlanta, San Francisco, New Jersey, New York-just to go by the "real" hierarchy.  Enough for a Holy Synod. And not a "Holy Synod" as delineated in the charter imposed, er, granted, by the Phanar to its exarchate, i.e. the "real hierarchy of North America," to wit, a pan-continental ethnic club caught in a time warp acting as a colonial office or Congregation of the Eastern Churches [in the West] and a curia rather than a "Holy Synod."

Canonically, it is the successful diocese which is non-existent, a status maintained by shuffling it under bishops of various abandoned sees, rather than its real, inhabited, see.

And how does the Phanar come under the condemnation of its own phyletist synod of 1870, setting up a Church on an ethnic basis? And one on top of others to boot?

"From the rising to the setting of the sun the name of the Lord shall be praised."  The sun doesn't rise in Constantinople, nor does it set in Athens.  "All nations" means just that.  There are no Supreme Mothers and perpetual daughters in the Church (if there were, Constantinople would be in trouble).  That's the big picture.

And I pray that the example of having an American Bishop of sound character and quality shall shine as a beacon to the rest of us who may fear change and the loss of 'ethnic' identity. In ACROD at least, 'ethnic' identity is surely present but in little doses these days and it has been that way for the better part of thirty years.
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« Reply #386 on: December 04, 2012, 12:48:05 PM »

Titles - schmitles ---- the measure of a man is how he acts, not what he is called or addressed by.

His Grace, Gregory was installed as ruling Bishop of the Carpatho-Russian Diocese. Having been a part of this little, but successful Diocese of hard scrapple descendents of miners,mill workers, teamsters and shoemakers, for all of my life I can honestly state that none of our Bishops have ever acted as anything less than a ruling Bishop of a properly formulated diocese. This goes to their relationships with the exarchs of the EP over the decades. We fully expect that to be case with our new hierarch. Our Ukrainian brothers, although not under the omophor of the EP for as long as the Carpatho-Russians, would likely tell the same story. The whole 'titular' issue is something of a red herring - to the Greeks I suppose it is an intellectual method to justify installing a Bishop in a non-geographical unit. Install him as a Bishop of a now non-existent see and 'assign' him to rule a distant group almost in a  diplomatic-like status  and - voila - you 'get around' the niceties of canon law. To some within the OCA and elsewhere, I suppose it is viewed as an intrusion on 'their' prerogatives. I suspect that in the eyes of our Lord, such matters are of little consequence in the 'big picture' of things.
There's a bigger picture all right.  I lay aside the prerogatives, i.e. jurisdiction, of the OCA aside, as obvious.

Johnstown is real town that exists in reality.  It has real Orthodox who live in it and the surrounding area in reality.  A real diocese in reality.  That reality can be admitted, finally, by the powers that be, in Pittsburgh, why not in Johnstown?

His grace has a brother bishop in Pittsburgh, in Boston, in Chicago, New York, Detroit, Denver, Atlanta, San Francisco, New Jersey, New York-just to go by the "real" hierarchy.  Enough for a Holy Synod. And not a "Holy Synod" as delineated in the charter imposed, er, granted, by the Phanar to its exarchate, i.e. the "real hierarchy of North America," to wit, a pan-continental ethnic club caught in a time warp acting as a colonial office or Congregation of the Eastern Churches [in the West] and a curia rather than a "Holy Synod."

Canonically, it is the successful diocese which is non-existent, a status maintained by shuffling it under bishops of various abandoned sees, rather than its real, inhabited, see.

And how does the Phanar come under the condemnation of its own phyletist synod of 1870, setting up a Church on an ethnic basis? And one on top of others to boot?

"From the rising to the setting of the sun the name of the Lord shall be praised."  The sun doesn't rise in Constantinople, nor does it set in Athens.  "All nations" means just that.  There are no Supreme Mothers and perpetual daughters in the Church (if there were, Constantinople would be in trouble).  That's the big picture.

And I pray that the example of having an American Bishop of sound character and quality shall shine as a beacon to the rest of us who may fear change and the loss of 'ethnic' identity. In ACROD at least, 'ethnic' identity is surely present but in little doses these days and it has been that way for the better part of thirty years.
I'm not worried about his or ACROD's ethnicity, except that the Phanar views it differently.

There is no reason why His Grace is not the bishop of Johnstown.  It's borer-line heresy to say he is not.  And it is a serious aberration of Orthodox ecclessialogy to have a diocese exist on an ad hoc semi-auxiliary basis.
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« Reply #387 on: December 04, 2012, 01:57:10 PM »

Isa, you're my buddy, but you're stirring the wrong pot. Having a bad day?  Wink
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« Reply #388 on: December 04, 2012, 04:20:21 PM »

Isa's recent posts state the obvious - although the 'borderline heresy' is a bit melodramatic. None of us would argue that the current state of jurisdictional affairs in the USA is 'proper' and most would agree that it needs to be resolved through consensus and agreement. Knowing the Carpatho-Russians and Ukrainians rather well, I would daresay that although we honor and reverence the Patriarch, he would not get too far were he to directly 'meddle' in parish or diocesan affairs or property of either of us.
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