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Author Topic: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?  (Read 22838 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2011, 11:08:46 AM »

Rusyns are Ukrainians.  That's my new bumpersticker, or at least Rusyn is a term/idea invented by second generation children of immigrant Ukrainian parents from Galicia.

And here we go again... Wink

The Lemko-Rusyn Republic, founded at the end of WWI.

Kind of ruins your argmument that Rusyn is an immigrant idea, doesn't it?

Here is my story and I am sticking to it. First of all I feel the closest affinity to my Ukrainian brothers and sisters. They share many of the same folk customs and religious pieties that my ancestors brought with them to the United States. In many ways, the language spoken by the western Ukrainians, the Galicians, the Lemkos, the Rusyns, the peoples of Maramarosh (now in Romania and Ukraine)  and Voivodina ( in Northern Serbia) are dialectical variations of what is now known as Ukrainian. However....Rusyns are distinct from Ukrainians. An American analogy is that all of the native American tribes of the Iroquois  were 'similar' and probably came from the same root, but a Seneca still knows to this day that he or she is not a Cayuga or Onondaga.

Sigh: It depends upon when you or your ancestors immigrated to the new world as borders changed radically during the lifetime of persons born between say, 1870 and 1944 and again following 1991.

If you can follow this, you are a better person than me, but here it goes:

My grandparents, as well as my wife's maternal grandmother and paternal granparents, were born in the former Austria-Hungary, all in areas which became part of the cobbled together land formerly known as Czechoslovakia following WW I. Her maternal grandfather came from a village on the north ridge of the Dukla Pass in what is now Poland and was 'Galician' and came here prior to WW I.

He settled in NE PA and was a founder of the Metropolia church in Frackville, PA which came into existence because>>>>>the people there didn't feel at home in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic parishes which pre-existed them in Shenandoah and Frackville. (the parish in Frackville was Metropolia because no Greek Catholic priest was available and the priests who served were affiliated with the Russian mission church and were followers of St. Alexis. No Ukrainian minded folks there.)

Ironically, all of her paternal grandfather's family, but for him, settled near Hamilton, Ontario and guess what? They are insistent Ukrainians two generations later! Most of his American family still thinks they are Russian?

His wife, my wife's grandmother, came from a cluster of villages just south of the Polish/Slovak border and she self-identified as a 'Rusnak' as opposed to a Ukrainian. She was a ward of the Greek Catholic priest in Chem'lova which served the villages of Becherov and Stebnik (the ancestral home of my maternal grandparents.) (The same parish to which my second cousin, a Greek Catholic priest ordained in the early 1990's was assigned as his first parish. Small world...)  The Greek Catholic priest arranged for her marriage to my wife's grandfather who was a widower with children following the influenza epidemic of 1918 - even though the priest knew that they were nominally Orthodox at that time. Even though she dutifully attended the church up the street, until the end of her life, 'her church' was the Metropolia parish of St. Michael's in neighboring St. Clair, PA which retained its Rusyn customs rather than shedding them as did the parish in Frackville. (Today that parish is in ACROD.) (Her cousin was the late Bishop Stephen Koscisko of the Byzantine Catholic Diocese of Passaic, NJ who was also related to the Hanas family of cantors, choir directors and priests in the Metropolia and ACROD.) 

Many of the people from those parishes were in the vanguard of those who became Orthodox, in Minneapolis and Buffalo both Metropolia parishes were primarily founded by Rusyns from Stebnik and Becherov in Saris County, Slovakia who by the middle of the 20th century were convinced they were 'real' Russians. (all relatives, on both my wife's and my families!)

My wife's paternal family came from what is now Transcarpathia, Ukraine from the village of Suchij, outside of Uzhorod and are now Orthodox and friends of Fr. Dymitry Sydor, the dean of the Uzhorod Orthodox (UOC-MP) cathedral and a Rusyn activist.

My family came from Stebnik, Slovakia on mother's side and Cigelka, Slovakia on father's side, both being near Bardejev and Dukla and all were Greek Catholics. (Cigelka is the home town of Blessed Pavel Goidich, another relative, although distant.) My mother's aunts,uncles and cousins who settled in Minneapolis and Buffalo were Orthodox by 1920 while her family settled in Bayonne, NJ where they were remained Greek Catholic until the schisms of the 1930's. There were pre-existing Russian Orthodox (Patriarchal and Metropolia) and Ukrainian Orthodox parishes in both Bayonne and Jersey City, NJ but like many of the Rusnaks, my grandfather went his own way and with a handful of others founded their own Orthodox Church to 'ensure the preservation of their rites and customs' which they knew had been abrogated in most of the Metropolia parishes and were somewhat different than those of the Ukrainians.

Same as to my dad's family in Elizabeth, NJ where his father left the Greek Catholic parish of which he was a founder and the parish president (before Bishop Takach abolished lay control in the 1920's) and founded a Rusyn church, adjacent to an existing Serbian Orthodox church and a few blocks removed from a Metropolia parish (where some of his more distant relatives attended) and the two Ukrainian churches.

Now, I recognize that all of this is anecdotal but I ask the question, if these people felt an affinity to Ukrainian nationalism and Ukrainian tradition, why did they bother to set out and establish their own parishes and hierarchy?

First and foremost was the fact that the Rusyns had established their own, unique liturgical chant tradition which is distinct from the Ukrainian tradition. Secondly, they had their own fraternal organizations (Liberty) which was distinct from the UROBA and others. Thirdly, they were well aware of the reality that many of their brothers and sisters had lost their identity within the Metropolia parishes and were identifying themselves as Russian.

Many a small town soldier returned after the war to complain to their babas in Pennsylvania and New Jersey about how stupid the Russian soldiers were as they didn't understand a word they were saying or sing or dance to any of the folk tunes they learned growing up.

Anyway, today we realize that the differences that seemed so monumental to our grandparents are not so great. I tell the story of how the UOC, my parish and the UGCC parishes in town all set up ethnic Christmas traditions at the local museum a few years ago and the curator located us in a row. As we were setting up we couldn't stop laughing as to how we had virtually the same stuff on display and how our grandfathers would have been rolling on the floor beating the daylights out of each other!

For a more detailed and factually sourced article see: CARPATHO-RUSYN AMERICANS   http://www.everyculture.com/multi/Bu-Dr/Carpatho-Rusyn-Americans.html
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« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2011, 11:46:15 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
Rusyns are Ukrainians.  That's my new bumpersticker, or at least Rusyn is a term/idea invented by second generation children of immigrant Ukrainian parents from Galicia.

And here we go again... Wink

The Lemko-Rusyn Republic, founded at the end of WWI.

Kind of ruins your argmument that Rusyn is an immigrant idea, doesn't it?
I am always amuzed when Ukrainians look at the Rusyn/Carpatho-Russians/Lemko the same way the Ukrainians complain that the Russians look down on the Ukrainians.

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« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2011, 11:51:57 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
Rusyns are Ukrainians.  That's my new bumpersticker, or at least Rusyn is a term/idea invented by second generation children of immigrant Ukrainian parents from Galicia.

And here we go again... Wink

The Lemko-Rusyn Republic, founded at the end of WWI.

Kind of ruins your argmument that Rusyn is an immigrant idea, doesn't it?
I am always amuzed when Ukrainians look at the Rusyn/Carpatho-Russians/Lemko the same way the Ukrainians complain that the Russians look down on the Ukrainians.

Exactly.
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« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2011, 12:32:56 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
Rusyns are Ukrainians.  That's my new bumpersticker, or at least Rusyn is a term/idea invented by second generation children of immigrant Ukrainian parents from Galicia.

And here we go again... Wink

The Lemko-Rusyn Republic, founded at the end of WWI.

Kind of ruins your argmument that Rusyn is an immigrant idea, doesn't it?
I am always amuzed when Ukrainians look at the Rusyn/Carpatho-Russians/Lemko the same way the Ukrainians complain that the Russians look down on the Ukrainians.

Exactly.

I try to refrain from using that argument, saving it for the 'two minute drill.' It usually provokes one of two answers:

a.) Gee, I never thought of it that way, you're right, or the always more popular:

b.) It's not like that at all. You don't know what you are talking about! 

Either way, it usually ends the discussion. Smiley
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« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2011, 12:37:04 PM »

For many years, but not in recent years, the GOAA Yearbook used to print the following language, in fine print, on the page that listed the SCOBA member ecclesiastical jurisdictions.

"Our relationship to the Ukrainian Orthodox Diocese and to the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese (see above) differs slightly to that which we have with other jurisdictions.  In both cases, since each were established by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, our Archdiocese, as Exarchate of the Ecumenical Patriarchate is entrusted with the direct spiritual supervision of their diocese.  This means that when they relate to the Ecumenical Patriarchate, for reception of Holy Chrism or the election of a new bishop, this must be submitted to the Archbishop, who in turn after reviewing the matter transmits it to the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate for action.  In all other matters these two dioceses function totally independent of this Archdiocese.

In addition, the Albanian Orthodox Diocese and the Byelorussian Orthodox Diocese are also under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.  Each of these diocese is headed by a vicar priest who is directly responsible to the Archbishop."

Right - this is the Archbishop acting in his role as local exarch.
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« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2011, 12:40:14 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
Rusyns are Ukrainians.  That's my new bumpersticker, or at least Rusyn is a term/idea invented by second generation children of immigrant Ukrainian parents from Galicia.

And here we go again... Wink

The Lemko-Rusyn Republic, founded at the end of WWI.

Kind of ruins your argmument that Rusyn is an immigrant idea, doesn't it?
I am always amuzed when Ukrainians look at the Rusyn/Carpatho-Russians/Lemko the same way the Ukrainians complain that the Russians look down on the Ukrainians.

Exactly.

+1
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« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2011, 02:11:45 PM »

There's been no news of it since then - God knows in this day and age it would have been posted somewhere :-). As it is, everything available (that I can find anyway) says his election as Bishop of Saskatoon is still pending the Holy Synod's approval although he's already moved :-).

I can assure you it has been quite official for some time. Unfortunately, Orthodoxy is not exactly media savvy when it comes to updating websites and such.
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« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2011, 03:28:11 PM »

There's been no news of it since then - God knows in this day and age it would have been posted somewhere :-). As it is, everything available (that I can find anyway) says his election as Bishop of Saskatoon is still pending the Holy Synod's approval although he's already moved :-).

I can assure you it has been quite official for some time. Unfortunately, Orthodoxy is not exactly media savvy when it comes to updating websites and such.

The Sobor of the UOCC took place in July when Bishop Andrij was elected to the Eparchy of Toronto and Eastern Canada.  And he moved to Toronto in the fall.  What is under discussion is the name change of the Eparchy from Toronto and Eastern Canada to another name such as Hamilton and the Eastern Eparchy for example, at the request of the EP.
The Greek Orthodox want to use the see of Toronto for their Metropolitan of Canada, but under the official agreement the see of Toronto was promised to the UOCC.
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« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2011, 04:19:57 PM »

John, it sounds official from the UOCC's end, but not the Ecumenical Patriarchate's.
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« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2011, 04:50:41 PM »

John, it sounds official from the UOCC's end, but not the Ecumenical Patriarchate's.

If the Ecumenical Patriarchate had any issues with it, I'm sure it would have been addressed when Metropolitan Yurij visited the Patriarch last year. As Orest points out, the only real issue is where the episcopal seat of the Eparchy should be.
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« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2011, 04:57:57 PM »

So if I'm not mistaken the hierarchs of the UOCC actually bear the names of their sees, whereas those of the UOCUSA have those of extinct cities in Anatolia. Is there a reason for the difference?
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« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2011, 05:10:17 PM »

So if I'm not mistaken the hierarchs of the UOCC actually bear the names of their sees, whereas those of the UOCUSA have those of extinct cities in Anatolia. Is there a reason for the difference?

You might be confusing their titles with their sees.  Metr.  Constantine is bishop of the Central Eparchy, Archbishop Antony is bishop of the Eastern Eparchy, and Bishop Daniel is bishop of the Western Eparchy.   Just as Bishop Andrij is bishop of the Eparchy of Toronto and Eastern Canada.  I'm not sure if the UOCC hierarchs also have titles to extinct cities.
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« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2011, 05:48:11 PM »

If they do, then they're never listed, whereas the UOCUSA hierarchs are always called after their extinct cities and rarely (never?) "of Parma," "of Chicago," et cetera.
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« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2011, 07:19:03 PM »

That is, then, the same setup as the Metropolises, right?

Excepting that the Ruling Bishop of ACROD is not the Bishop of Johnstown, PA just as Metropolitan Constantine of the UOCUSA is not the Bishop of Bound Brook, NJ. Also, these two jurisdictions have their own internal by-laws and regulations and are not subject to the Archdiocesan regulations which have been the subject of some discussion here recently.

Thank you.

I only asked, because sometimes what seems to be the case in how the Church operates, is so impossibly far from what actually happens.
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« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2011, 07:24:49 PM »

The Belarusian Orthodox parishes are completely with the Belarusian Autocephalous Orthodox Church now, aren't they?

There are a few within ACROD.

I think there are two (maybe four, but two seems right) parishes from the Byelorussian Council which are now within the ACROD.
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« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2011, 08:48:26 PM »

The Belarusian Orthodox parishes are completely with the Belarusian Autocephalous Orthodox Church now, aren't they?

There are a few within ACROD.

I think there are two (maybe four, but two seems right) parishes from the Byelorussian Council which are now within the ACROD.

I think they were placed under the omophorion of the late Metropolitan, but were not legally integrated into the structure of ACROD, but I could be wrong.....
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« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2011, 11:43:59 PM »

If they do, then they're never listed, whereas the UOCUSA hierarchs are always called after their extinct cities and rarely (never?) "of Parma," "of Chicago," et cetera.

My hierarch mentions his "extinct" city from time to time, and is listed as such on the EP website. I'm not sure what Bp. Andriy does. In the UOCC, they are always referred to by the seat of their eparchy jere in Canada proper, and are commemorated as such at the DL.
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« Reply #62 on: June 16, 2011, 02:54:55 AM »

Yet again I ask, does anyone have any information as to who might be a possible successor to Metropolitan Nicholas?  A friend of mine in ACROD, who is close to an ACROD priest, told me there is no one.  I told him that I am on a church forum and would be able to get information to him.  Doesn't anyone know what is going on in this regard?  Is this diocese to be left widowed for the foreseeable future?
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« Reply #63 on: June 16, 2011, 03:13:49 AM »

The Belarusian Orthodox parishes are completely with the Belarusian Autocephalous Orthodox Church now, aren't they?

There are a few within ACROD.

I think there are two (maybe four, but two seems right) parishes from the Byelorussian Council which are now within the ACROD.

I think they were placed under the omophorion of the late Metropolitan, but were not legally integrated into the structure of ACROD, but I could be wrong.....

AFAIR they were listed in the ACROD's online directory. Now it's broken so I can't check it for sure.
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« Reply #64 on: June 16, 2011, 07:39:19 AM »

Yet again I ask, does anyone have any information as to who might be a possible successor to Metropolitan Nicholas?  A friend of mine in ACROD, who is close to an ACROD priest, told me there is no one.  I told him that I am on a church forum and would be able to get information to him.  Doesn't anyone know what is going on in this regard?  Is this diocese to be left widowed for the foreseeable future?

I understand that the group of clerics which Met. Nicholas had prearranged to pick a new bishop (whether this is a slate or an outright choice is not known by me) is still at work.
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« Reply #65 on: June 16, 2011, 07:57:37 AM »

If they do, then they're never listed, whereas the UOCUSA hierarchs are always called after their extinct cities and rarely (never?) "of Parma," "of Chicago," et cetera.

My hierarch mentions his "extinct" city from time to time, and is listed as such on the EP website. I'm not sure what Bp. Andriy does. In the UOCC, they are always referred to by the seat of their eparchy jere in Canada proper, and are commemorated as such at the DL.

Metropolitan Nicholas was always formally listed as 'of Amissos' and his predecessor, Bishop John was listed as 'of Nyssa' in all of our Diocesan publications whenever their pictures were printed.
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« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2011, 08:07:17 AM »

Yet again I ask, does anyone have any information as to who might be a possible successor to Metropolitan Nicholas?  A friend of mine in ACROD, who is close to an ACROD priest, told me there is no one.  I told him that I am on a church forum and would be able to get information to him.  Doesn't anyone know what is going on in this regard?  Is this diocese to be left widowed for the foreseeable future?

I understand that the group of clerics which Met. Nicholas had prearranged to pick a new bishop (whether this is a slate or an outright choice is not known by me) is still at work.

That would be the Diocesan Consistory and they met with the locum tenens, Archbishop Demetrios last month in New York. http://www.acrod.org/index.php?id=4816 At the point when a candidate or candidates are to be considered, the Diocesan by-laws mandate the convening of a special Sobor/Diocesan Council, during which the next Bishop will be selected for confirmation by the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. 
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« Reply #67 on: June 16, 2011, 10:50:28 AM »

"Metropolitan Nicholas was always formally listed as 'of Amissos' and his predecessor, Bishop John was listed as 'of Nyssa' in all of our Diocesan publications whenever their pictures were printed."

Do the Greeks have plans to set up a metropolis someday in Johnstown then? :-)
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« Reply #68 on: June 16, 2011, 10:51:55 AM »

"Metropolitan Nicholas was always formally listed as 'of Amissos' and his predecessor, Bishop John was listed as 'of Nyssa' in all of our Diocesan publications whenever their pictures were printed."

Do the Greeks have plans to set up a metropolis someday in Johnstown then? :-)

No. The Sobor of the diocese would never accept the assessment policies of the Archdiocese. (BTW, I am not being inconsistent with my defense of those policies last week. They were duly adopted in council by the Greeks, hence their parishes were bound to their rightful enforcement. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as they say.)
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« Reply #69 on: June 16, 2011, 10:54:12 AM »

Why the different treatment in naming of Greek dioceses versus the non-Greeks ones then?
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« Reply #70 on: June 16, 2011, 11:29:37 AM »

Why the different treatment in naming of Greek dioceses versus the non-Greeks ones then?

Don't know, perhaps Fr. Chris or Fr. George can answer this one. I think though that they don't want to imply that the non-Greek Bishops in the diaspora have any jurisdictional claims over Greek parishes in their cities and the surroundings and vice versa....
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« Reply #71 on: June 16, 2011, 03:09:31 PM »

Why the different treatment in naming of Greek dioceses versus the non-Greeks ones then?

The Constantinople has (in their opinion) the jurisdiction over the whole are that is not under the canonical jurisdiction of other Churches (North and South America, Western Europe, Eastern Asia, Australia and Oceania). The Greek ethnicity is the dominant one in the Church of Constantinople so the parallel Churches (ACROD, UOC, Russian Exarchate, Albanian) that exist on the territories of the Greek Dioceses (GOA, Western European Dioceses) are considered to be extra jurisdictions (like jurisdictions of the other Churches) in contrary to the canonical (one territory - one Bishop) Greek jurisdiction. Hierarchs from the non-Greek EP jurisdictions cannot be named after the real cities because they would have the authority over the lands that already have EP Bishops.
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« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2011, 09:57:16 AM »

Why the different treatment in naming of Greek dioceses versus the non-Greeks ones then?

The Constantinople has (in their opinion) the jurisdiction over the whole are that is not under the canonical jurisdiction of other Churches (North and South America, Western Europe, Eastern Asia, Australia and Oceania). The Greek ethnicity is the dominant one in the Church of Constantinople so the parallel Churches (ACROD, UOC, Russian Exarchate, Albanian) that exist on the territories of the Greek Dioceses (GOA, Western European Dioceses) are considered to be extra jurisdictions (like jurisdictions of the other Churches) in contrary to the canonical (one territory - one Bishop) Greek jurisdiction. Hierarchs from the non-Greek EP jurisdictions cannot be named after the real cities because they would have the authority over the lands that already have EP Bishops.

That sounds accurate to me as it has been explained by others over the years.
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« Reply #73 on: June 17, 2011, 11:24:01 AM »

The Spirit is descended!
Why the different treatment in naming of Greek dioceses versus the non-Greeks ones then?

The Constantinople has (in their opinion) the jurisdiction over the whole are that is not under the canonical jurisdiction of other Churches (North and South America, Western Europe, Eastern Asia, Australia and Oceania). The Greek ethnicity is the dominant one in the Church of Constantinople so the parallel Churches (ACROD, UOC, Russian Exarchate, Albanian) that exist on the territories of the Greek Dioceses (GOA, Western European Dioceses) are considered to be extra jurisdictions (like jurisdictions of the other Churches) in contrary to the canonical (one territory - one Bishop) Greek jurisdiction. Hierarchs from the non-Greek EP jurisdictions cannot be named after the real cities because they would have the authority over the lands that already have EP Bishops.
I wonder, now that the Phanar didn't get its hands on the titular see of Sourozh (interesting in and of itself, as Sourozh/Sudak isn't in Constatinople's jurisdiction, but Moscow's: hence the renaming Bp. Basil Osborn to another, Greek, see of Amphipolis?), how did they organize the Russians who went over?  I know they have the same set up in the New World in the Patriarchal Exarchate for Russian Orthodox Exarchate in Western Europe, where the present bishop is "bishop of Komana," succeeding the "bishop of Evkarpia," who succeeded the "bishop of Syracuse," who succeeded Met.  Vladimir Tikhonicky whom the Phanar installed as a rival to the successor of Met. Evolgiy "of Chersonese" (installed by Moscow)-although all have been in Paris.

Oddly enough, the Tomos that the EP issued in 1931
http://exarchat.eu/spip.php?article857
doesn't say anything about any super jurisdiction of the Phanar, just about exceptional circumstances.   The present master of the Phanar, of course, in 1999 "rectified" that, starting its new Tomos with the canon 28 myth in the first sentence.

I seem to recall the Phanar having some Russians in Latin America. Is there any ethnic dioceses (and, despite the Phanar's protest to the contrary invoking its 1871 phyletist decree, that is what they are) in Australia and New Zealand? Are there any alongside the Greek jurisdictions (themselves alongside the jurisidcion of Moscow and Antioch)?
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« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2011, 11:29:35 AM »

There is an Ukrainian Dioceses in South America.
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« Reply #75 on: June 17, 2011, 01:56:12 PM »

There is (are) Ukrainian parishes in Australia.
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« Reply #76 on: June 17, 2011, 02:36:56 PM »

The parishes of the Ukrainian Diocese of Australia and NZ headed by Archbishop John. Strangely they call themselves Autocephalous, although not connected with the UAOC obviously.

http://www.uaoc-diaspora.com/Austr.htm





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« Reply #77 on: June 17, 2011, 07:11:45 PM »

The parishes of the Ukrainian Diocese of Australia and NZ headed by Archbishop John. Strangely they call themselves Autocephalous, although not connected with the UAOC obviously.

http://www.uaoc-diaspora.com/Austr.htm







With whom are they in communion, if I may ask?
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« Reply #78 on: June 17, 2011, 07:34:48 PM »

With whom are they in communion, if I may ask?

With you?

They are in Metropolitan Constantine's Synod.
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« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2011, 07:55:47 PM »

The Spirit is descended!
With whom are they in communion, if I may ask?

With you?

They are in Metropolitan Constantine's Synod.
LOL. And they complained about the OCA being in Australia.
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« Reply #80 on: June 19, 2011, 04:54:58 AM »

Boring Saturday night, huh? You've failed to persuade me. Again, ACROD discussion (your closing comment does rise to that level)?
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« Reply #81 on: June 19, 2011, 09:10:02 AM »

I remember seeing Archbishop Demetrios (or possibly Archbishop Spyridon?) referred to as 'Exarch of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans.' I'm glad this hasn't been turned into an actual jurisdiction over the ACROD, the UOCC, or the UOCUSA (beyond being a locum tenens and/or installing new primates).

I should note that he was very precise in his language regarding the Diocese and the vacancy during his homily so as not to fuel any conspiracy minded folks.
Typical it seems of HE +Archbishop Demetrios.  Many years!
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« Reply #82 on: June 19, 2011, 09:30:56 AM »

I have a question that perhaps you can answer since you seem to be a long time and active member of the Carpatho Rusyn Diocese. There has been talk among the Ruthenians (at least among the ones in Europe) to join the UGCC and form one jurisdiction. Has there ever been any discussions or desire to join the UOC-USA? Or are there significant differences whereby the Rusyns would lose their identity?

Wonderful! I wasn't sure given how things seem to work in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

It is a common misunderstanding and for some a deliberate misstatement, that the Carpatho-Russian and the two canonical Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions in North America are 'in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.' None of us are either structurally or legally part of the Archdiocese. As a matter of general practice we do not commemorate the Archbishop of America. At the present time given our vacant position, he is our Locum Tenens and is being commemorated, however upon the enthronement of a new Bishop,that will no longer be the case.

The three jurisdictions in question, ACROD, the UOCUSA and UOCC, are under the omophor of the ecumenical throne and operate, for lack of a better word (and this is not being used in any canonical reference) autonomously. Bishops are chosen pursuant to the by-laws governing each of these jurisdictions and the choice is forwarded to the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarch for approval. To my knowledge, limited to ACROD, the Synod has never rejected any of the choices submitted since its founding in 1938.




There are differences in chant and Rusyns have historically lacked a sense of cultural kinship with Ukraine. To the outside observer the differences may appear subtle, but nothing regarding Church and culture is always what it seems!

As you move from what is now eastern Slovakia into Transcarpathian Ukraine the Rusyns gradually give way to the western Ukrainians who are predominantly Greek Catholic. The Greek Catholics around the Slovak border and the cities of Uzhorod and Muchachevo are within the historic boundaries of the Greek Catholic Eparchy of Munkacs/Muchachevo which is a designated as a 'sui juris' church by Rome. They are not part of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Synod based in L'vov with pretensions upon Kiev. It is my understanding that this is a source of irritation to some Ukrainian nationalists who do not recognize the Rusyns as a separate group. Rusyns in Slovakia would have no desire to join the UGCC as they have their own 'sui juris' church with their own episcopacy.

The Orthodox Rusyns of Slovakia have their own parallel dioceses to those of the Greek Catholics and to my memory all of the Bishops of the Orthodox Church of the Czech and Slovak lands are at least partially Rusyn in ethnic background. The Orthodox were influenced by the presence of the White Russians who relocated to Ladimirova in Slovakia following the Revolution and remained there until Czechoslovakia came under Soviet domination. The late Metropolitan Laurus of ROCOR was born in Ladimirova and was of Rusyn heritage.

In Transcarpathia, the Orthodox Rusyns do not have their own Bishop as they were made part of the Russian Church following the USSR's annexation of Transcarpathia following World War II. They have a large presence in the Uzhorod area and the leading Orthodox Rusyn priest, Father Dymytry Sydor, is a 'thorn' in the side of the local Ukrainian authorities - most of whom are sympathetic to the UGCC or the UOC-KP. The Rusyns are aligned there with the UOC-MP. To those of you who have been to Uzhorod, you may have seen the massive Orthodox Church in the City constructed during the 1990's and yet unfinished in the upper church. This is the Cathedral Church of the Exhaltation of the Holy Cross built through  Fr. Dymytry's vision and will power. I believe it is intended to be the second or third largest Orthodox Church of the MP when completed.

As to the United States, ACROD and UOC-USA and Canada are on very friendly terms both on the hierarchical, clerical and lay side of things. Bishop Daniel of Toronto shares both Ukrainian and Rusyn heritage as did the late Archbishop Vsevelod. However, I do not see the possibility of there being any desire on either part to formalize things outside of the overall potential for change in our American Church per se.

A more detailed summary may be found here:  http://www.simkovich.org/religion.htm


Btw, what is now the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia was originally a Old Catholic Church which became WRO, which switched to Eastern Rite when the Rusyn Orthodox in what had been of Transleithania (Hungary) joined those in Cisleithania (Austria) in joining up with the WRO Church of St. Gorazd in Prague in the new CzS Republic and saturating it.
Quote
At the time of its independence in 1918, Czechoslovakia was a preponderantly Catholic nation. In 1920, a group of progressive Catholic priests and faithful broke away and formed a National Czechoslovak Church. Some of these were sympathetic to Orthodoxy, and when the church held a congress in 1921 it heard an appeal from a Serbian bishop to unite with the Orthodox Church. In September of that year, the Serbian Patriarch ordained Fr. Matej Pavlik, the administrator of one of the National Catholic dioceses, as an Orthodox bishop and leader of the emerging community. He took the name Gorazd. Only a minority of the National Catholics became Orthodox; the larger group eventually formed a Protestant church. At this point there were about 40,000 Orthodox in the country, but the numbers soon increased when a group of Greek Catholics in Transcarpathia became Orthodox.

Subsequent developments led to divisions within the Orthodox community. On March 3, 1923, the Patriarchate of Constantinople issued a Tomos granting autonomy to the Czechoslovak church, and sent Metropolitan Sabbazd to look after the Orthodox faithful there. And in 1930 the Serbian Patriarchate sent a bishop of its own to Transcarpathia. Most Orthodox Czechoslovaks, however, remained within Bishop Gorazd’s jurisdiction. In the 1931 census, there were 145,583 Orthodox in Czechoslovakia, with 117,897 of them in Transcarpathia.
http://www.cnewa.us/default.aspx?ID=26&pagetypeID=9&sitecode=US&pageno=1
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« Reply #83 on: June 19, 2011, 10:00:28 AM »

There's been no news of it since then - God knows in this day and age it would have been posted somewhere :-). As it is, everything available (that I can find anyway) says his election as Bishop of Saskatoon is still pending the Holy Synod's approval although he's already moved :-).

I can assure you it has been quite official for some time. Unfortunately, Orthodoxy is not exactly media savvy when it comes to updating websites and such.

The Sobor of the UOCC took place in July when Bishop Andrij was elected to the Eparchy of Toronto and Eastern Canada.  And he moved to Toronto in the fall.  What is under discussion is the name change of the Eparchy from Toronto and Eastern Canada to another name such as Hamilton and the Eastern Eparchy for example, at the request of the EP.
The Greek Orthodox want to use the see of Toronto for their Metropolitan of Canada, but under the official agreement the see of Toronto was promised to the UOCC.
If so, the Phanar broke its promose long ago
http://www.gocanada.org/metropolitan/index.htm
Quote
Ο Σεβασμιώτατος Μητροπολίτης Τορόντο κ.κ. ΣΩΤΗΡΙΟΣ

Υπέρτιμος και Έξαρχος παντός Καναδά

His Eminence Metropolitan SOTIRIOS of Toronto

Exarch of all Canada
I replicate their order of priority.

It also has an interesting bit now that I don't think was there before:
Quote
Πρόεδρος του Καναδικού Συμβουλίου Ορθοδόξων Επισκόπων

Chairman of the Canadian Conference of Orthodox Bishops
Has there been any official set up of an Episcopal Assembly in Canada, seperate from the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of North and Central America?

Btw, it has an interesting address:
Quote
The Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Toronto, 1 Patriarch Bartholomew Way, Toronto, Ontario, M4H 1C6)
http://www.gocanada.org/metropolis/index.htm

For the rest of the world, it is 86 Overlea Blvd.
http://www.orthodox-canada.com/canadian-conference-of-orthodox-bishops-held-a-meeting-in-toronto/

Given that ACROD has parishes in Canada, I'm curious, does it ever have to deal with Met. Sotirios, "Exarch of All Canada"?
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« Reply #84 on: June 19, 2011, 10:08:41 AM »

Boring Saturday night, huh? You've failed to persuade me. Again, ACROD discussion (your closing comment does rise to that level)?
Since neither of us is in ACROD, of what was I supposed to persuade you in particular?
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« Reply #85 on: June 19, 2011, 01:19:47 PM »

I have a question that perhaps you can answer since you seem to be a long time and active member of the Carpatho Rusyn Diocese. There has been talk among the Ruthenians (at least among the ones in Europe) to join the UGCC and form one jurisdiction. Has there ever been any discussions or desire to join the UOC-USA? Or are there significant differences whereby the Rusyns would lose their identity?

Wonderful! I wasn't sure given how things seem to work in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

It is a common misunderstanding and for some a deliberate misstatement, that the Carpatho-Russian and the two canonical Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions in North America are 'in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.' None of us are either structurally or legally part of the Archdiocese. As a matter of general practice we do not commemorate the Archbishop of America. At the present time given our vacant position, he is our Locum Tenens and is being commemorated, however upon the enthronement of a new Bishop,that will no longer be the case.

The three jurisdictions in question, ACROD, the UOCUSA and UOCC, are under the omophor of the ecumenical throne and operate, for lack of a better word (and this is not being used in any canonical reference) autonomously. Bishops are chosen pursuant to the by-laws governing each of these jurisdictions and the choice is forwarded to the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarch for approval. To my knowledge, limited to ACROD, the Synod has never rejected any of the choices submitted since its founding in 1938.




There are differences in chant and Rusyns have historically lacked a sense of cultural kinship with Ukraine. To the outside observer the differences may appear subtle, but nothing regarding Church and culture is always what it seems!

As you move from what is now eastern Slovakia into Transcarpathian Ukraine the Rusyns gradually give way to the western Ukrainians who are predominantly Greek Catholic. The Greek Catholics around the Slovak border and the cities of Uzhorod and Muchachevo are within the historic boundaries of the Greek Catholic Eparchy of Munkacs/Muchachevo which is a designated as a 'sui juris' church by Rome. They are not part of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Synod based in L'vov with pretensions upon Kiev. It is my understanding that this is a source of irritation to some Ukrainian nationalists who do not recognize the Rusyns as a separate group. Rusyns in Slovakia would have no desire to join the UGCC as they have their own 'sui juris' church with their own episcopacy.

The Orthodox Rusyns of Slovakia have their own parallel dioceses to those of the Greek Catholics and to my memory all of the Bishops of the Orthodox Church of the Czech and Slovak lands are at least partially Rusyn in ethnic background. The Orthodox were influenced by the presence of the White Russians who relocated to Ladimirova in Slovakia following the Revolution and remained there until Czechoslovakia came under Soviet domination. The late Metropolitan Laurus of ROCOR was born in Ladimirova and was of Rusyn heritage.

In Transcarpathia, the Orthodox Rusyns do not have their own Bishop as they were made part of the Russian Church following the USSR's annexation of Transcarpathia following World War II. They have a large presence in the Uzhorod area and the leading Orthodox Rusyn priest, Father Dymytry Sydor, is a 'thorn' in the side of the local Ukrainian authorities - most of whom are sympathetic to the UGCC or the UOC-KP. The Rusyns are aligned there with the UOC-MP. To those of you who have been to Uzhorod, you may have seen the massive Orthodox Church in the City constructed during the 1990's and yet unfinished in the upper church. This is the Cathedral Church of the Exhaltation of the Holy Cross built through  Fr. Dymytry's vision and will power. I believe it is intended to be the second or third largest Orthodox Church of the MP when completed.

As to the United States, ACROD and UOC-USA and Canada are on very friendly terms both on the hierarchical, clerical and lay side of things. Bishop Daniel of Toronto shares both Ukrainian and Rusyn heritage as did the late Archbishop Vsevelod. However, I do not see the possibility of there being any desire on either part to formalize things outside of the overall potential for change in our American Church per se.

A more detailed summary may be found here:  http://www.simkovich.org/religion.htm


Btw, what is now the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia was originally a Old Catholic Church which became WRO, which switched to Eastern Rite when the Rusyn Orthodox in what had been of Transleithania (Hungary) joined those in Cisleithania (Austria) in joining up with the WRO Church of St. Gorazd in Prague in the new CzS Republic and saturating it.
Quote
At the time of its independence in 1918, Czechoslovakia was a preponderantly Catholic nation. In 1920, a group of progressive Catholic priests and faithful broke away and formed a National Czechoslovak Church. Some of these were sympathetic to Orthodoxy, and when the church held a congress in 1921 it heard an appeal from a Serbian bishop to unite with the Orthodox Church. In September of that year, the Serbian Patriarch ordained Fr. Matej Pavlik, the administrator of one of the National Catholic dioceses, as an Orthodox bishop and leader of the emerging community. He took the name Gorazd. Only a minority of the National Catholics became Orthodox; the larger group eventually formed a Protestant church. At this point there were about 40,000 Orthodox in the country, but the numbers soon increased when a group of Greek Catholics in Transcarpathia became Orthodox.

Subsequent developments led to divisions within the Orthodox community. On March 3, 1923, the Patriarchate of Constantinople issued a Tomos granting autonomy to the Czechoslovak church, and sent Metropolitan Sabbazd to look after the Orthodox faithful there. And in 1930 the Serbian Patriarchate sent a bishop of its own to Transcarpathia. Most Orthodox Czechoslovaks, however, remained within Bishop Gorazd’s jurisdiction. In the 1931 census, there were 145,583 Orthodox in Czechoslovakia, with 117,897 of them in Transcarpathia.
http://www.cnewa.us/default.aspx?ID=26&pagetypeID=9&sitecode=US&pageno=1

Like much in our Orthodox world, what you state is 'technically' true regarding the Orthodox Church of the Czech and Slovak lands. However, prior to the forced liquidation of the Greek Catholic Church in 1947, the composition (at least on paper) changed as to the Slovak republic, particularly since Transcarpathia was ceded to the USSR following the War. The slow re-legalization of the Greek Catholics within CzS following 1968 had a major impact on numbers, but the Orthodox have held their own, particularly in those regions where they had a pre-war presence (around Ladimirova) and in regions where the Greek Catholic clergy were engaged in 'westernizing' to differentiate them from the Orthodox. A review of websites and youtube postings from eastern Slovakia and Transcarpathia (part of Slovak lands prior to WW2) will show you a dizzying range of practice among the both the  Orthodox and the Greek Catholics ranging from very Latin (somewhat so for some Orthodox, very much so for some Greek Catholics) to very Orthodox externally (both Greek Catholics and Orthodox.)
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« Reply #86 on: June 19, 2011, 02:07:33 PM »

Ok, to Re-Rail this thread;  I don't know who would be a candidate within the ACROD diocese.  I'm sure there is one or two.  I'm sure there are candidates, but finding one who is actually willing to move and live in Johnstown is another issue.  The diocese headquarters are nice but Johnstown is the definition of a rust belt city.  It has its nice parts, like Richland and Westmont and my favourite part, driving out of Johnstown (adjusting the rear-view so I can't use it, then fixing it so I can use it when I hit route 219 about 5 miles out of the city).  If you've ever taken Amtrak into Johnstown, all you see is defunct steel mills for miles and industrial waste.  It's sad. 
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« Reply #87 on: June 19, 2011, 02:33:31 PM »

Since the subject came up, there was a nice article posted Friday on ACROD.com about St. Gorazd... http://acrod.org/readingroom/saints/gorazd
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« Reply #88 on: June 19, 2011, 02:45:31 PM »

"I'm sure there are candidates, but finding one who is actually willing to move and live in Johnstown is another issue. The diocese headquarters are nice but Johnstown is the definition of a rust belt city."

Would someone worthy of election as a bishop really balk on the location of his cathedral rather than the responsibilities of the episcopacy itself? (As they say on SNL, "Really? Really?" ;-) )
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« Reply #89 on: June 19, 2011, 03:56:14 PM »

Since the subject came up, there was a nice article posted Friday on ACROD.com about St. Gorazd... http://acrod.org/readingroom/saints/gorazd
Very nice indeed!
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