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Author Topic: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?  (Read 20226 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #270 on: August 30, 2012, 04:33:15 PM »

Would it have been so hard to get someone from ACROD itself to become bishop, or someone from the Czechoslovak church?


Apparently it was.
AFAIK, they did not make an official request to Met. Christopher to suggest someone. They just asked their own priests if someone knew someone in the Old Country, and no one made a suggestion, so they turned to the Greeks, instead of seriously pursuing the issue.

This shows a complete lack of understanding where most of these people come from... The founders of ACROD come from an area that is now part of Western Ukraine. It is not under Metropolitan Christopher. The sad fact is the people who did not emigrate to the US are now mainly Byzantine Catholics. There is no longer a mother church for the people of ACROD.
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« Reply #271 on: August 30, 2012, 04:37:26 PM »

ACROD people are both from today's Slovakia and Ukraine. In Ukrainian Zakarpattia Oblast, the UOC-MP and the Greek Catholics have about an equal share of adherents. I suggest someone from Slovakia, rather than Ukraine, because it would be highly problematic taking someone from the MP as an EP bishop.
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« Reply #272 on: August 30, 2012, 04:47:12 PM »

Because it would be highly problematic taking someone from the MP as an EP bishop.

AFAIR Basil Osborne gave up bishopping Wink

On the other hand it works for contrarywise examples (the current Bishop of Korsun being a former Rue Daru Priest and St. Sergius graduate).
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« Reply #273 on: August 30, 2012, 04:56:50 PM »

Bishop Nestor of Korsun was sent by the MP to study in France, and for a certain time, had permission to serve in the Rue Daru jurisdiction. He was never incardinated there, but lend from the MP.

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« Reply #274 on: August 30, 2012, 05:05:39 PM »

Bishop Nestor of Korsun was sent by the MP to study in France, and for a certain time, had permission to serve in the Rue Daru jurisdiction. He was never incardinated there, but lend from the MP.



I doubt this priest lending happens outside the USA. For sure Fr. Nestor was appointed by Abp Sergius as a pastor of an Exarchate's parish. That means he was considered to be an Exarchate's member, doesn't it?
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« Reply #275 on: August 30, 2012, 06:20:18 PM »

I doubt this priest lending happens outside the USA. For sure Fr. Nestor was appointed by Abp Sergius as a pastor of an Exarchate's parish. That means he was considered to be an Exarchate's member, doesn't it?

We have priest lending in Germany. For example, the Church of Greece is lending some priests to the EP's German Metropolia, and they are being appointed as pastors of parishes, sometimes for years.
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« Reply #276 on: August 30, 2012, 06:36:16 PM »

ACROD people are both from today's Slovakia and Ukraine. In Ukrainian Zakarpattia Oblast, the UOC-MP and the Greek Catholics have about an equal share of adherents. I suggest someone from Slovakia, rather than Ukraine, because it would be highly problematic taking someone from the MP as an EP bishop.

And from Poland, Romania, Hungary...how do you know an old world candidate was not considered as a possibility?
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« Reply #277 on: August 30, 2012, 09:16:29 PM »

ACROD people are both from today's Slovakia and Ukraine. In Ukrainian Zakarpattia Oblast, the UOC-MP and the Greek Catholics have about an equal share of adherents. I suggest someone from Slovakia, rather than Ukraine, because it would be highly problematic taking someone from the MP as an EP bishop.

No, ACROD people are from Pennsylvania, New York, Michigan, and New Jersey, mostly.
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« Reply #278 on: August 30, 2012, 09:34:20 PM »

It is unworthy of the Ecumenical (universal) character of the Patriarchate of Constantinople to place a Greek bishop in ACROD. When the EP placed Greek bishops in Bulgaria, and refused to acknowledge the Bulgarian dissatisfaction with that, a schism was the consequence. Luckily, that is history now. But it is a shame that they have not learnt from history.

And I say that as a person whose main parish is under the EP, and I would always defend the EP against the MP, his All-Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew gainst accusations of ecumenism, etc. But this time, they have made a mistake. Would it have been so hard to get someone from ACROD itself to become bishop, or someone from the Czechoslovak church?

It really seems like ACROD escaped to Constantinople to avoid being russified, only to become hellenised 3 generations later.

This was NOT the Patriarch's first choice as to what happened in ACROD.  This was strictly ACROD chancery's suggestion, and they chose Bishop Gregorios over other "Slavic options."  The Patriarch was hesitant about the suggestion when first given.  I cannot say anything else about it on the internet.  ACROD has been under Constantinople for generations without any Hellenization, so your claims and speculations are unfounded. 
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« Reply #279 on: August 30, 2012, 09:37:52 PM »

ACROD people are both from today's Slovakia and Ukraine. In Ukrainian Zakarpattia Oblast, the UOC-MP and the Greek Catholics have about an equal share of adherents. I suggest someone from Slovakia, rather than Ukraine, because it would be highly problematic taking someone from the MP as an EP bishop.

No, ACROD people are from Pennsylvania, New York, Michigan, and New Jersey, mostly.

lol.  Yes, Schultz, but these are facts (to which I would add "Florida"), frowned upon by those who fail to gain from them in their claims. 
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« Reply #280 on: August 30, 2012, 09:45:20 PM »

Is the EP trying to build another empire?

ACROD an empire? 10k faithful here and there? They would fit in 2-3 Białystok parishes.

You are correct Michal.  Thank you for the "reality check."  This "anti-Byzantine intrigue" needs kept in balance. 
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« Reply #281 on: August 31, 2012, 07:08:13 AM »

I am glad to read that it is not the Patriarch's personal fault.

Still, it is strange that ACROD gets a Greek bishop, and a Slav gets sent to be bishop in a Greek diocese in Mexico.

And I do remain sceptical about the "messiah from outside". As I mentioned, that did fail in the case of Metropolitan (or what is the correct title now? Retired Metropolitan?) Jonah.
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« Reply #282 on: August 31, 2012, 07:14:20 AM »

Still, it is strange that ACROD gets a Greek bishop, and a Slav gets sent to be bishop in a Greek diocese in Mexico.

Maybe a Greek would be a better primate than an Ukrainian for the Rusyns? AFAIK Rusyns do not like Ukrainians much (and vice-versa). There is no danger that Bishop Gregory would try to ukrainize them as the "bigger brother".

Who would the UOC-USA prefer? A Greek or a Russian?  police
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« Reply #283 on: August 31, 2012, 07:49:59 AM »

"Ukrainize" them? When the UOC-MP is looking to Zakarpattia Oblast for authentic tradition? I don't think so.

Anyway, if several candidates were considered, as some posters mentioned in this thread, why wasn't there a vote between several candidates?

As it happened, it reminded me a bit of elections in the USSR: one candidate, all vote for him, everyone applauds. (And the Greek Metropolitan presided the whole thing as locum tenens).
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« Reply #284 on: August 31, 2012, 07:54:59 AM »

"Ukrainize" them? When the UOC-MP is looking to Zakarpattia Oblast for authentic tradition? I don't think so.

You forgot Ukrainian authorities put one Rusyn priest into jail.
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« Reply #285 on: August 31, 2012, 08:09:23 AM »

You forgot Ukrainian authorities put one Rusyn priest into jail.
Let's discuss that in the Politics section, please. Anyway, it was not the Church who jailed him, only Politics.
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« Reply #286 on: August 31, 2012, 08:10:29 AM »

"Ukrainize" them? When the UOC-MP is looking to Zakarpattia Oblast for authentic tradition? I don't think so.

You forgot Ukrainian authorities put one Rusyn priest into jail.

This would be the one, Fr. Dmitri Sidor
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« Reply #287 on: August 31, 2012, 08:21:09 AM »

Anyway, it was not the Church who jailed him, only Politics.

Why are not talking "Churches" here but about nations.
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« Reply #288 on: August 31, 2012, 05:40:57 PM »

"Ukrainize" them? When the UOC-MP is looking to Zakarpattia Oblast for authentic tradition? I don't think so.

Anyway, if several candidates were considered, as some posters mentioned in this thread, why wasn't there a vote between several candidates?

As it happened, it reminded me a bit of elections in the USSR: one candidate, all vote for him, everyone applauds. (And the Greek Metropolitan presided the whole thing as locum tenens).

Obviously, the Consistory, composed of church leadership appointed by Metropolitan Nicholas of Blessed Memory, must not have felt any other candidates would be the best fit for the diocese.  The priests could have nominated another candidate if they felt there was someone who would better serve them, but obviously, having met Bishop-elect Gregorios, when he was an archimandrite, they agreed with the Consistory.

There was one priest eligible within the diocese, I don't know if he is the priest mentioned in Reply No. 286, but I do know that the one eligible priest refused consideration.  There may have been a health issue, is my recollection, but I could be wrong.

The Locum Tenens is Archbishop Demerios of America, primate of the GOAA and Chairman of ACOB.
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« Reply #289 on: August 31, 2012, 08:06:11 PM »

Fr. Dmitry Sidor is not in ACROD, but in the UOC-MP.

Anyway, a part of my family being refugees from communism, and one relative having been murdered by Communists, I cannot exactly feel comfortable about elections with just one candidate.
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« Reply #290 on: August 31, 2012, 08:46:11 PM »

Still, it is strange that ACROD gets a Greek bishop,

What is strange about an Orthodox diocese of Americans of Carpatho-Russian descent getting an American of Greek descent for bishop?
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« Reply #291 on: August 31, 2012, 11:31:43 PM »

Still, it is strange that ACROD gets a Greek bishop, and a Slav gets sent to be bishop in a Greek diocese in Mexico.

Maybe a Greek would be a better primate than an Ukrainian for the Rusyns? AFAIK Rusyns do not like Ukrainians much (and vice-versa). There is no danger that Bishop Gregory would try to ukrainize them as the "bigger brother".

Who would the UOC-USA prefer? A Greek or a Russian?  police

Right.  You are correct, this was one of the fears.  The rationale was that the Greeks have never tried to Hellenize ACROD, but there was a fear that Ukrainians would try to "Ukrainize" ACROD.  With a Greek Bishop, there was felt to be more of a surety to maintain prostopinje and Rusyn praxes, without pressure to "blend."   I also think that your comparison of Rusyn to Ukrainian and Ukrainian to Russian in terms of suspicion is correct.  It is there.  Several of my Ukrainians (speaking of parishioners directly from Ukraine) are as suspicious of the русинів.  This is not true of the Americans of Ukrainian descent.  We can argue whether is right or wrong, but is there.      
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« Reply #292 on: September 01, 2012, 08:35:08 AM »

An interesting aside to this is the conversation I had a few months ago with my priest when I brought up the possibility of a Ukrainian bishop for us. His response was 'classic':
(paraphrasing)
"Even the Catholics knew the relations between the Rusyns and the Ukrainians and created the Byzantine Catholic and Ukrainian Catholic churches here to keep them separate".
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« Reply #293 on: September 01, 2012, 08:42:15 AM »

"Even the Catholics knew the relations between the Rusyns and the Ukrainians and created the Byzantine Catholic and Ukrainian Catholic churches here to keep them separate".

And still Ukrainians talk about the benefits of potential merging Ukrainian Catholic Church with the Archdiocese of Mukachevo.
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« Reply #294 on: September 01, 2012, 08:45:34 AM »

"Even the Catholics knew the relations between the Rusyns and the Ukrainians and created the Byzantine Catholic and Ukrainian Catholic churches here to keep them separate".

And still Ukrainians talk about the benefits of potential merging Ukrainian Catholic Church with the Archdiocese of Mukachevo.
 Where is the Archdiocese of Mukachevo?

(I'll probably regret trying to fathom Ukrainian issues.)  Smiley
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« Reply #295 on: September 01, 2012, 08:48:39 AM »

OK, not "Archdiocese" but "Diocese".

Marked with grey:

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« Reply #296 on: September 01, 2012, 12:03:32 PM »

Interesting that the grey area is included in that western portion of Ukraine which the Rusyns admit to having some of their people (I think). Again, I'm just curious with no ax to grind here
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« Reply #297 on: September 01, 2012, 12:14:51 PM »

Not sure whether you are serious or making a fool out of me...

The map shows Eastern Rite Catholic Dioceses in Ukraine (but the Armenian one). All but one dioceses marked belong to the Ukrainian Rite but the grey one is independent and responds directly to the Vatican (not to Kyiv). It's because that area is populated by Rusyns who do not share culture, language, tradition and history with most of the Ukrainians and therefore are given by Vatican ecclesiastical independence from Ukraine.

On the other hand Ukrainians dream of taking over the Diocese and merging them into the UGCC.
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« Reply #298 on: September 01, 2012, 12:32:27 PM »

No, my friend, I am not trying to make you appear foolish. Things Ukrainian can be really confusing on this side of the pond. Thanks for the input.
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« Reply #299 on: September 01, 2012, 12:48:12 PM »

It's because that area is populated by Rusyns who do not share culture, language, tradition and history with most of the Ukrainians and therefore are given by Vatican ecclesiastical independence from Ukraine.

Dream on.

There are merely historical reasons. That one was in Hungary, and later Czechoslovakia, whereas the UGCC was the Greek Catholic hierarchy of Austria, and later Poland.

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« Reply #300 on: September 01, 2012, 01:00:30 PM »

There are merely historical reasons. That one was in Hungary, and later Czechoslovakia, whereas the UGCC was the Greek Catholic hierarchy of Austria, and later Poland.

^ An example of typical Ukrainian opinion about the Rusyns. Does anyone notice that it's parallel to the Russian's opinion about Ukrainians?
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« Reply #301 on: September 01, 2012, 01:06:45 PM »

Fr. Dmitry Sidor is not in ACROD, but in the UOC-MP.

Anyway, a part of my family being refugees from communism, and one relative having been murdered by Communists, I cannot exactly feel comfortable about elections with just one candidate.


The Fr. Sidor saga shows precisely the problem, Slavs really don't make good neighbors with each other.  In most cases it seems like the group in power tries to assimilate the weaker neighbor  (For what its worth even the Magic Kingdom has the same problem).  So if the people in ACROD are happy with the decision what right do you have to upset?  

I'm not sure what your little diatribe about communism has to do with this thread.  The communists along with your ancestors and countrymen killed plenty of my relatives.  Not sure how that makes one more or less able to talk about the current situation in ACROD.    
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« Reply #302 on: September 01, 2012, 01:09:59 PM »

There are merely historical reasons. That one was in Hungary, and later Czechoslovakia, whereas the UGCC was the Greek Catholic hierarchy of Austria, and later Poland.

^ An example of typical Ukrainian opinion about the Rusyns. Does anyone notice that it's parallel to the Russian's opinion about Ukrainians?

The Little Ukrainians are just Ukrainians who have been been under the influence of Hungarian and Slovakian fascists.  There is no Little Ukrainian Dialect, nonetheless it should be forbidden to use it.   I've never heard this logic before, have you.

Completely unrelated but I'm planning a trip to Zakarpats'ka in a few weeks. 
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« Reply #303 on: September 01, 2012, 01:15:35 PM »

Completely unrelated but I'm planning a trip to Zakarpats'ka in a few weeks. 

Enjoy your ether.
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« Reply #304 on: September 01, 2012, 02:52:53 PM »

Michail, you make an excellent point. The relationships between Russians, Ukrainians, and Rusyns is a strange one or at least difficult to understand. To date I have heard Russians deny the existence of Ukrainians and Ukrainians deny the existence of Rusyns and Rusyns deny the existence of Ukrainians.
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« Reply #305 on: September 01, 2012, 03:06:16 PM »

Michail, you make an excellent point. The relationships between Russians, Ukrainians, and Rusyns is a strange one or at least difficult to understand. To date I have heard Russians deny the existence of Ukrainians and Ukrainians deny the existence of Rusyns and Rusyns deny the existence of Ukrainians.

I've never heard a Rusyn deny the existence of Ukrainian identity so long as it's applied to Ukrainians and not Rusyns.
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« Reply #306 on: September 01, 2012, 04:31:51 PM »

There are merely historical reasons. That one was in Hungary, and later Czechoslovakia, whereas the UGCC was the Greek Catholic hierarchy of Austria, and later Poland.

^ An example of typical Ukrainian opinion about the Rusyns. Does anyone notice that it's parallel to the Russian's opinion about Ukrainians?

Why do I have the impression that you have not read my post exactly?

I am only stating the reason for the existence of two separate jurisdictions in communion with Rome. And that reason is not culture or identity.

The question of Rusyn identity is a more complex one, which I did not address in this post.
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« Reply #307 on: September 01, 2012, 04:47:20 PM »

I am only stating the reason for the existence of two separate jurisdictions in communion with Rome. And that reason is not culture or identity.

DIocese of Mukachevo was restored in 1989. Why wasn't it merged with the UGCC?
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« Reply #308 on: September 01, 2012, 04:55:08 PM »

DIocese of Mukachevo was restored in 1989. Why wasn't it merged with the UGCC?
Why should it have been? The status quo ante was restored.
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« Reply #309 on: September 01, 2012, 05:10:23 PM »

Status quo wasn't restored because there were no boarders between that part of Zakarpathia and Ukraine.
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« Reply #310 on: September 01, 2012, 05:42:29 PM »

Status quo wasn't restored because there were no boarders between that part of Zakarpathia and Ukraine.

The Greek Catholic hierarchy was restored, as it was before Stalin suppressed it. That's all.
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« Reply #311 on: September 02, 2012, 03:44:35 AM »

Status quo wasn't restored because there were no boarders between that part of Zakarpathia and Ukraine.

The Greek Catholic hierarchy was restored, as it was before Stalin suppressed it. That's all.

Gorazd is correct.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #312 on: September 02, 2012, 08:05:38 PM »

This shows a complete lack of understanding where most of these people come from... The founders of ACROD come from an area that is now part of Western Ukraine. It is not under Metropolitan Christopher. The sad fact is the people who did not emigrate to the US are now mainly Byzantine Catholics. There is no longer a mother church for the people of ACROD.

ACROD founders came from both the Mukachevo and Presov Eparchies.  Metropolitan Orestes was from Presov
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« Reply #313 on: September 02, 2012, 08:11:27 PM »

I am only stating the reason for the existence of two separate jurisdictions in communion with Rome. And that reason is not culture or identity.

DIocese of Mukachevo was restored in 1989. Why wasn't it merged with the UGCC?

The Eparchy of Mukachevo has never been a part of the UGCC or the Kyiv Metropolitanate.  Before the union of Uzhorord, Mukachevo answered to Constantinople via Transylvania whose metropolitans ordained the bishops for Mukachevo.  It was never under Kyiv or Lviv.
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Michał Kalina
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« Reply #314 on: September 03, 2012, 03:14:16 AM »

The Eparchy of Mukachevo has never been a part of the UGCC or the Kyiv Metropolitanate.  Before the union of Uzhorord, Mukachevo answered to Constantinople via Transylvania whose metropolitans ordained the bishops for Mukachevo.  It was never under Kyiv or Lviv.

Many of the Ukrainian priests say it's a matter of time.
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