Author Topic: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?  (Read 25753 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #225 on: June 07, 2012, 12:16:53 AM »
ialmisry,

I thoght my point was clear, but just for you: An autocephalous church ideally should have jurisdiction over all canonical Orthodox people in its area. If this is not the case, at least it should be approximated for the autocephaly to have credibility. For the OCA, this simply isn't the case. And I do wish the US to have its own autocephalous church, uniting all Orthodox there. (Also, there is no reason why Canada should be under the US, but that would be another topic.)
Somewhere here I've posted the Canadian incorporation (1903?, thereabouts) recognizing the jurisdiction of the Russian Archbishop of North America (i.e., Met. Jonah predecessor) and his successors.  But that's another issue.

Few "Mother Churches," NOT including either the Phanar nor Moscow, has jurisdiction over all canonical Orthodox people in its area. Estonia, case in point. That's, unfortunately, nothing new.

The Phanar thought it would rid itself of the OCA problem with the Episcopal Assembly scheme.  Abp. Demetrios, God grant him many years!, ignored the memo, and now the Phanar is stuck with an autocephalous OCA it is in communion with.  If the ethnarch wants to see himself as the Sultan's Patriarch of the Rum, he's welcome to do so.  Just don't expect us to play along.

Not true.  History is filled with a non-recognition of autocephaly while at the same time recognizing canonicity.
Other than the case of Kiev/Moscow (and that's iffy it fits that description), when was that, Father?

That is precisely what Constantinople and HE Demetrios (and yes, truly may God grant him many years) did.  If there was such a memo from the Patriarch and +D ignored it then +D would not still be here, but he is.
Oh, the Phanar has learned from the Abp. Iakovos/Abp. Spyridon debacle, it is not that simple.  The Phanar owes Abp. Demetrios.

HAH Bartholomew made it clear to then Met. Herman on his visit that OCA is recognized fully as canonical, just not as de jure autocephalous (even though operationally autocephalous).   
HAH can make anything clear he wants, just like his mouthpiece, for instance, made it clear that the Phanar gave Alexandria jurisdiction over all of Africa in 2003.  Since Alexandria has has had jurisdiction over all of Africa for seventy years before that at least, we just say "that's nice."

The Phanar signed onto the Chambesy accords with ALL the autocephalous Churches, as its spokesman never tires of saying (except, of course, the OCA).  The accords make it clear that all canonical Orthodox must be included.   The implementation has made it clear that the OCA is not under any other Church.  One can be a little pregnant only for so long.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #226 on: June 07, 2012, 01:41:24 AM »
It seems Archbishop Demetrios picks his fights with The Phanar; standing up to His All Holiness, an action uncommon among hierarchs of the Ecumenical Throne during this Patriarchy,  over the issue of seating the OCA at the Episcopal Assembly, maintained unity and fellowship among the Orthodox jurisdictions in North America and will probably be one the most significant accomplishments of his tenure on the Archdiocesan Throne.  I'm not really seeking a response, but can you imagine an attempt to establish the Episcopal Assembly in North America without the Orthodox Church in America, the second largest church, with its holy and venerable history?
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #227 on: June 07, 2012, 02:16:50 AM »
IT seemed to me that the OCA actually was the third largest church, after GOARCH and AOCA...

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #228 on: June 07, 2012, 02:33:11 AM »
Also, ialmisry, do you realize that historical arguments are not enough, and you also need to consider reality?

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #229 on: June 07, 2012, 05:03:54 AM »
IT seemed to me that the OCA actually was the third largest church, after GOARCH and AOCA...

Aren't the OCA still a bit larger than the AOCA?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #230 on: June 07, 2012, 06:34:02 AM »
Also, ialmisry, do you realize that historical arguments are not enough, and you also need to consider reality?
Yes.

And the reality is that the OCA is autocephalous (Met. Jonah just consecrated its chrism), and in communion with all the rest of the Orthodox in the diptychs.
 
The Phanar is having to adjust itself to that reality.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #231 on: June 07, 2012, 06:40:24 AM »
It seems Archbishop Demetrios picks his fights with The Phanar; standing up to His All Holiness, an action uncommon among hierarchs of the Ecumenical Throne during this Patriarchy,  over the issue of seating the OCA at the Episcopal Assembly, maintained unity and fellowship among the Orthodox jurisdictions in North America and will probably be one the most significant accomplishments of his tenure on the Archdiocesan Throne.  I'm not really seeking a response, but can you imagine an attempt to establish the Episcopal Assembly in North America without the Orthodox Church in America, the second largest church, with its holy and venerable history?
Against the other extreme "America(n) Only", Abp. Demetrios demonstrates that one doesn't have to be born a native local to know what is best for the local Church and to engage with the locality.  His predecessor Abp. Iakovos of blessed memory knew that as well.
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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #232 on: June 07, 2012, 10:25:03 AM »
ialmisry,

I thoght my point was clear, but just for you: An autocephalous church ideally should have jurisdiction over all canonical Orthodox people in its area. If this is not the case, at least it should be approximated for the autocephaly to have credibility. For the OCA, this simply isn't the case. And I do wish the US to have its own autocephalous church, uniting all Orthodox there. (Also, there is no reason why Canada should be under the US, but that would be another topic.)
Somewhere here I've posted the Canadian incorporation (1903?, thereabouts) recognizing the jurisdiction of the Russian Archbishop of North America (i.e., Met. Jonah predecessor) and his successors.  But that's another issue.

AS to Gorazd's point, the issues are complex and will not be resolved until some form of administrative unity is created in North America or at least the USA. I suspect the Canadians would react as well to being placed with us as say the Belgians would be if placed with France or Germany.


Few "Mother Churches," NOT including either the Phanar nor Moscow, has jurisdiction over all canonical Orthodox people in its area. Estonia, case in point. That's, unfortunately, nothing new.

The Phanar thought it would rid itself of the OCA problem with the Episcopal Assembly scheme.  Abp. Demetrios, God grant him many years!, ignored the memo, and now the Phanar is stuck with an autocephalous OCA it is in communion with.  If the ethnarch wants to see himself as the Sultan's Patriarch of the Rum, he's welcome to do so.  Just don't expect us to play along.

It's funny how we 'abhor' the Romans, yet we mimic them whenever it suits us. Over on byzcath there was a discussion about how the Eastern Catholics in what we call the 'diaspora' lacked the ability to select their own bishops in accordance with the treaties of Union from Brest and Uzghorod outside of their ancestral lands in that North America had been discovered on behalf of kingdoms (i.e. Spain, Portugal and France) loyal to the Pope of Rome thereby giving the Pope jurisdiction over those lands. Isn't that analogous to the OCA's argument about Alaska?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 10:27:13 AM by podkarpatska »

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #233 on: June 07, 2012, 12:02:19 PM »
And the reality is that the OCA is autocephalous (Met. Jonah just consecrated its chrism), and in communion with all the rest of the Orthodox in the diptychs.
 
The Phanar is having to adjust itself to that reality.

Just because the MP lets the OCA consecrate its own chrism, doesnt mean the EP needs to give all of its parishes to the OCA. In fact, if Moscow ever drops support for the OCA, the OCA would be quite lost...

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #234 on: June 07, 2012, 12:22:36 PM »
And the reality is that the OCA is autocephalous (Met. Jonah just consecrated its chrism), and in communion with all the rest of the Orthodox in the diptychs.
 
The Phanar is having to adjust itself to that reality.

Just because the MP lets the OCA consecrate its own chrism, doesnt mean the EP needs to give all of its parishes to the OCA. In fact, if Moscow ever drops support for the OCA, the OCA would be quite lost...

What I find odd about this whole thing, is that online there are posters who blithely go on as if the rest of the American Orthodox in the other jurisdictions will someday simply 'see the light' and 'come' over the OCA. Yet the hierarchy of the OCA, including Metropolitan Jonah recognize that the problem is more complex than that and a different path will have to evolve. In terms of disparate nationalities co-existing within the boundaries of one nation, i.e. the  USA, the closest analogy to the Patristic Era is the western Roman Empire and that model didn't work out too well for the unity of the Faith.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #235 on: June 07, 2012, 01:05:53 PM »
ialmisry,

I thoght my point was clear, but just for you: An autocephalous church ideally should have jurisdiction over all canonical Orthodox people in its area. If this is not the case, at least it should be approximated for the autocephaly to have credibility. For the OCA, this simply isn't the case. And I do wish the US to have its own autocephalous church, uniting all Orthodox there. (Also, there is no reason why Canada should be under the US, but that would be another topic.)
Somewhere here I've posted the Canadian incorporation (1903?, thereabouts) recognizing the jurisdiction of the Russian Archbishop of North America (i.e., Met. Jonah predecessor) and his successors.  But that's another issue.

AS to Gorazd's point, the issues are complex and will not be resolved until some form of administrative unity is created in North America or at least the USA. I suspect the Canadians would react as well to being placed with us as say the Belgians would be if placed with France or Germany.


Few "Mother Churches," NOT including either the Phanar nor Moscow, has jurisdiction over all canonical Orthodox people in its area. Estonia, case in point. That's, unfortunately, nothing new.

The Phanar thought it would rid itself of the OCA problem with the Episcopal Assembly scheme.  Abp. Demetrios, God grant him many years!, ignored the memo, and now the Phanar is stuck with an autocephalous OCA it is in communion with.  If the ethnarch wants to see himself as the Sultan's Patriarch of the Rum, he's welcome to do so.  Just don't expect us to play along.

It's funny how we 'abhor' the Romans, yet we mimic them whenever it suits us. Over on byzcath there was a discussion about how the Eastern Catholics in what we call the 'diaspora' lacked the ability to select their own bishops in accordance with the treaties of Union from Brest and Uzghorod outside of their ancestral lands in that North America had been discovered on behalf of kingdoms (i.e. Spain, Portugal and France) loyal to the Pope of Rome thereby giving the Pope jurisdiction over those lands. Isn't that analogous to the OCA's argument about Alaska?
No.

The OCA, through its predecessors, has exercised jurisdiction from Alaska down to California continuously since the time Spain still ruled New Spain.  In fact, in the 1850's, when the Episcopalians reached CA and were forming a diocese, they considered getting their orders from the Orthodox bishop in Sitka.  The next decade said bishop, a member of the Russian Holy Synod and with suffragans in the same Church, moved his see to SF, and it has remained in the Continental US ever since.  By the time a bishop of any other Church arrived in the US (and that was a Greek Metropolitan visiting the World's Fair of 1892), Met. Jonah's predecessors were performing their visitations from coast to coast.  By the time the Phanar decided, without basis, to claim North America-the first to dispute Russia's claim-North America was already a diocese, established with jurisdiction by the Czar, British Crown and American Congress over the US and Canada, with three bishops, having already consecrated its own bishop.  The present state of the OCA, minus autocephaly, was already in place, more or less, a decade before the first foreign bishop-Met. Meletios of Greece-set foot in North America and set up a diocese.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #236 on: June 07, 2012, 01:10:57 PM »
And the reality is that the OCA is autocephalous (Met. Jonah just consecrated its chrism), and in communion with all the rest of the Orthodox in the diptychs.
 
The Phanar is having to adjust itself to that reality.

Just because the MP lets the OCA consecrate its own chrism, doesnt mean the EP needs to give all of its parishes to the OCA. In fact, if Moscow ever drops support for the OCA, the OCA would be quite lost...
and if Greece drops the Phanar, where is it going to be?

The Phanar won't give his parishes in Estonia to Moscow.  Does that void Moscow's autocephaly?

The MP doesn't let the OCA do anything.  The OCA is fully empowered to "be independent and self-governing with the right of electing her own Primate and all her bishops, without confirmation or the right of veto over such elections on the part of any other church organization or representative of the Eastern Orthodox or any other confession; irmly and inalterably preserve the divine dogmas, being guided in her life by the sacred Canons of the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church of Christ and governed in accordance with her own Statute as accepted, augmented or amended from time to time by her own highest legislative and executive organ;maintain direct relations with all other Churches and confessions, Orthodox and non-Orthodox alike; enjoy all the authority, privileges and rights usually inherent in the term “autocephaly” in the canonical tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church, including the right of preparing and consecrating Holy Chrism."  The hew and cry that the Phanar raised when Romania first consecrated its chrism indicates it thinks it important.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #237 on: June 07, 2012, 01:44:28 PM »
And the reality is that the OCA is autocephalous (Met. Jonah just consecrated its chrism), and in communion with all the rest of the Orthodox in the diptychs.
 
The Phanar is having to adjust itself to that reality.

Just because the MP lets the OCA consecrate its own chrism, doesnt mean the EP needs to give all of its parishes to the OCA. In fact, if Moscow ever drops support for the OCA, the OCA would be quite lost...
and if Greece drops the Phanar, where is it going to be?

The Phanar won't give his parishes in Estonia to Moscow.  Does that void Moscow's autocephaly?

The MP doesn't let the OCA do anything.  The OCA is fully empowered to "be independent and self-governing with the right of electing her own Primate and all her bishops, without confirmation or the right of veto over such elections on the part of any other church organization or representative of the Eastern Orthodox or any other confession; irmly and inalterably preserve the divine dogmas, being guided in her life by the sacred Canons of the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church of Christ and governed in accordance with her own Statute as accepted, augmented or amended from time to time by her own highest legislative and executive organ;maintain direct relations with all other Churches and confessions, Orthodox and non-Orthodox alike; enjoy all the authority, privileges and rights usually inherent in the term “autocephaly” in the canonical tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church, including the right of preparing and consecrating Holy Chrism."  The hew and cry that the Phanar raised when Romania first consecrated its chrism indicates it thinks it important.

I am well aware of the legal arguments raised by the OCA and the counterarguments more 'silently' advanced by others. The reality remains that the overall canonical situation in the Americas will not be solved absent some sort of consensus and as with most things in Church history, those with power will prevail - in some cases through numbers, in others through money and temporal power and in others, through the power of church history and canonical interpretation, It will only happen when there is a convergence and true meeting of the minds. Elements within both the Phanar or the OCA who believe that it shall come to be as they deign it to be and solely upon the terms they dictate will both be disappointed.

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #238 on: July 16, 2012, 06:25:53 AM »
JOHNSTOWN, PA [Christ The Saviour Cathedral] -- Meeting in Special Assembly today which was presided over by His Eminence, Archbishop Demetrios of America, Diocesan Locum Tenens, the priests of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese of the USA nominated the Very Rev. Archimandrite Grigorios (Tatsis)  as successor to His Eminence, Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos...

Offline Basil 320

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #239 on: July 16, 2012, 07:32:58 PM »
"Axios."  (Thanks for the post.)
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #240 on: July 17, 2012, 04:13:26 PM »
Axios!
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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #241 on: July 17, 2012, 04:18:09 PM »
I heard about this and read a longer bio of Arch. Grigorios. I'm very excited for ACROD!
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #242 on: July 17, 2012, 04:33:10 PM »
Ok, I know Fr. Grigorios so I am possibly just an eensy-weensy bit prejudiced - however
AXIOS! AXIOS! AXIOS!
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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #243 on: August 30, 2012, 11:51:13 AM »
It's official: This afternoon at 2:00pm, the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate (presided over by His Eminence, Metropolitan SAVAS of Pittsburgh, and honor granted to him by the Ecumenical Patriarch for the purpose of the election) elected the V. Rev. Archimandrite Gregorios Tatsis to be His Grace, Bishop GREGORIOS of Nyssa.  Many years to him, to the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese, and to the parish of Holy Trinity in New Orleans, LA (which His Grace is now serving).  AXIOS!  AXIOS!  AXIOS!
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 11:52:05 AM by Fr. George »
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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #244 on: August 30, 2012, 11:59:26 AM »
It's official: This afternoon at 2:00pm, the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate (presided over by His Eminence, Metropolitan SAVAS of Pittsburgh, and honor granted to him by the Ecumenical Patriarch for the purpose of the election) elected the V. Rev. Archimandrite Gregorios Tatsis to be His Grace, Bishop GREGORIOS of Nyssa.  Many years to him, to the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese, and to the parish of Holy Trinity in New Orleans, LA (which His Grace is now serving).  AXIOS!  AXIOS!  AXIOS!

AXIOS! AXIOS! AXIOS!  CAN'T SAY THAT ENOUGH TIMES!!!!!!!!! YAY!!!!!!
See you at the ordination/enthronement, Fr. George!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #245 on: August 30, 2012, 12:17:57 PM »
AXIOS! AXIOS! AXIOS!


from another member of the Bishop Gregorios Fan Club and Marching Society.
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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #246 on: August 30, 2012, 12:20:09 PM »
ΑΞΙΟΣ! ΑΞΙΟΣ! ΑΞΙΟΣ!

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #247 on: August 30, 2012, 12:34:40 PM »
Nothing against Bishop Gregorios personally, but the man is a Greek American, who was serving in the Greek tradition until very recently, and he does not speak a word of the language of Carpatho-Ruthenia. In other words, this is the end of the Carpatho-Ruthenian character of ACROD. Probably, after him, the parishes will just be put directly under the local Greek bishop.

In that sense, let us sing for ACROD: Vechnaya pamyat! Memory eternal!

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #248 on: August 30, 2012, 12:36:17 PM »
"Axios, Axios, Axios!"



And congratulations to Metropolitan Savas for the privilege His All Holiness extended to him, to preside over the Holy and Sacred of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #249 on: August 30, 2012, 12:44:53 PM »
of Nyssa   ???

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #250 on: August 30, 2012, 01:07:47 PM »
Nothing against Bishop Gregorios personally, but the man is a Greek American, who was serving in the Greek tradition until very recently, and he does not speak a word of the language of Carpatho-Ruthenia. In other words, this is the end of the Carpatho-Ruthenian character of ACROD. Probably, after him, the parishes will just be put directly under the local Greek bishop.

In that sense, let us sing for ACROD: Vechnaya pamyat! Memory eternal!

Don't be so sure of that.  The GOAA has always respected and supported the integrity of ACROD and its founding principals, including honoring their cultural practices, and now, even giving one of its sons to serve ACROD's hierarchical needs, at their time of need.  His Grace has an excellent reputation and will be supported by the ACROD Consistory, clergy and faithful.  From what I have heard about His Grace, he will learn the pertinent Carpatho-Rusyn practices, and honor them and the legacy of his venerable episcopal predecessors, of Blessed Memory.  Patriarch Bartholomew noted the importance the Ecumenical Patriarchate ascribes to the venerable Carpatho-Rusin traditions upon a visit to ACROD headquarters and Christ The Saviour Cathedral.  His All Holiness was a friend of Metropolitan Nicholas,' who had attended the Halki Theological School.  Recall also, that Metropolitan Orestes reported that he and his fellow founding clergy of ACROD, chose to seek canonical protection under the Ecumenical Patriarchate because their predecessors, who were associated with St. Alexis of Wilkes Barre, had been victimized by the Russification imposed on their parishes by the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Metropolia, the OCA's predecessor.

Don't forget that the priests of ACROD met with Bishop-elect Gregorios upon the recommendation of the Consistory, and voted to recommend his election to the ACROD Throne.

It is unworthy of this forum to invoke our memorial prayers in response to the election of a diocesan hierarch.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 01:09:03 PM by Basil 320 »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #251 on: August 30, 2012, 01:27:53 PM »
It is unworthy of the Ecumenical (universal) character of the Patriarchate of Constantinople to place a Greek bishop in ACROD. When the EP placed Greek bishops in Bulgaria, and refused to acknowledge the Bulgarian dissatisfaction with that, a schism was the consequence. Luckily, that is history now. But it is a shame that they have not learnt from history.

And I say that as a person whose main parish is under the EP, and I would always defend the EP against the MP, his All-Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew gainst accusations of ecumenism, etc. But this time, they have made a mistake. Would it have been so hard to get someone from ACROD itself to become bishop, or someone from the Czechoslovak church?

It really seems like ACROD escaped to Constantinople to avoid being russified, only to become hellenised 3 generations later.

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #252 on: August 30, 2012, 01:57:41 PM »
Would it have been so hard to get someone from ACROD itself to become bishop, or someone from the Czechoslovak church?


Apparently it was.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #253 on: August 30, 2012, 02:06:11 PM »
Would it have been so hard to get someone from ACROD itself to become bishop, or someone from the Czechoslovak church?


Apparently it was.
AFAIK, they did not make an official request to Met. Christopher to suggest someone. They just asked their own priests if someone knew someone in the Old Country, and no one made a suggestion, so they turned to the Greeks, instead of seriously pursuing the issue.

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #254 on: August 30, 2012, 02:10:01 PM »
Would it have been so hard to get someone from ACROD itself to become bishop, or someone from the Czechoslovak church?


Apparently it was.
AFAIK, they did not make an official request to Met. Christopher to suggest someone. They just asked their own priests if someone knew someone in the Old Country, and no one made a suggestion, so they turned to the Greeks, instead of seriously pursuing the issue.


And so, when asked by ACROD, the "Greeks" suggested an intelligent, capable American born priest of Greek heritage.

What could they have been thinking???!!!
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #255 on: August 30, 2012, 02:12:57 PM »
Re. Reply No. 254, above.

Ha, good post "katherineofdixie!"
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 02:14:29 PM by Basil 320 »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #256 on: August 30, 2012, 02:13:25 PM »
What could they have been thinking???!!!
Do you think I can look into other people's brains?

I cannot. But I have seen a poll before, where about half of the polled GOARCH members said, the church should make Greek Culture an equal priority as Orthodox Christianity.

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #257 on: August 30, 2012, 02:13:40 PM »
It is unworthy of the Ecumenical (universal) character of the Patriarchate of Constantinople to place a Greek bishop in ACROD. When the EP placed Greek bishops in Bulgaria, and refused to acknowledge the Bulgarian dissatisfaction with that, a schism was the consequence. Luckily, that is history now. But it is a shame that they have not learnt from history.

Can you show any ACROD dissatisfaction?  I've seen nothing but elation over the election.  Oh, and I actually talk to ACROD people.

Quote

It really seems like ACROD escaped to Constantinople to avoid being russified, only to become hellenised 3 generations later.

Care to substantiate that, too?  I don't know any ACROD parishes that do anything but ACROD customs.  
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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #258 on: August 30, 2012, 02:14:33 PM »
What could they have been thinking???!!!
Do you think I can look into other people's brains?

I cannot. But I have seen a poll before, where about half of the polled GOARCH members said, the church should make Greek Culture an equal priority as Orthodox Christianity.

And if you polled ACROD parishes, they would say the same thing about Carpatho-Rusyn customs.

You'll have to pry Rusyn customs from their cold, dead hands.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #259 on: August 30, 2012, 02:15:33 PM »
Ha, good post "katherineofdixie!"


Well, I have to admit, I am prejudiced in favor of Bishop Gregorios, so mine is not at all an unbiased opinion!
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Offline Orest

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #260 on: August 30, 2012, 02:17:49 PM »
It is unworthy of the Ecumenical (universal) character of the Patriarchate of Constantinople to place a Greek bishop in ACROD. When the EP placed Greek bishops in Bulgaria, and refused to acknowledge the Bulgarian dissatisfaction with that, a schism was the consequence. Luckily, that is history now. But it is a shame that they have not learnt from history.

And I say that as a person whose main parish is under the EP, and I would always defend the EP against the MP, his All-Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew gainst accusations of ecumenism, etc. But this time, they have made a mistake. Would it have been so hard to get someone from ACROD itself to become bishop, or someone from the Czechoslovak church?

It really seems like ACROD escaped to Constantinople to avoid being russified, only to become hellenised 3 generations later.
Gorazd, you make a lot of sense.  Especially about "hellenizing the Carpatho-Russians" in ACROD.  The EP did the same thing in Romania but to a lesser extent than what happened in Bulgaria during the days of the Ottoman Empire. Is the EP trying to build another empire?  I don't know but their actions are NOT right.  The search in the
"old Country" was not taken seriously: surely at least one or two monks could have emigrated to the USA and lived here a few years to see if they or one of them fitted in and was suitaable bishop material.

Offline Basil 320

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #261 on: August 30, 2012, 02:18:10 PM »
What could they have been thinking???!!!
Do you think I can look into other people's brains?

I cannot. But I have seen a poll before, where about half of the polled GOARCH members said, the church should make Greek Culture an equal priority as Orthodox Christianity.

Was that the Gallop Poll from 1980?   Things have changed, big time.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #262 on: August 30, 2012, 02:20:31 PM »
Can you show any ACROD dissatisfaction?  I've seen nothing but elation over the election.  Oh, and I actually talk to ACROD people.
I am stating my personal opinion. I did not make any claims of being representative of current emotions in ACROD. Btw, last time we saw "nothing but elation" in American Orthodoxy, was on the election of Met. Jonah. And we all know how that ended. So I am sceptical about this wave of euphoria.


Care to substantiate that, too?  I don't know any ACROD parishes that do anything but ACROD customs.  
I can only tell you that there still are a lot of Greek customs in Bulgaria today, from EP jurisdiction times. In the last few years, Hellenophiles, who have often been monks on Athos, are making a comeback. In the dioceses of Sofia and Plovdiv, they are even imposing Byzantine chant, making flee many people who love the beauty of the Kyiv choral.

As for ACROD, we will see in 10 or 20 years, how they will celebrate.

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #263 on: August 30, 2012, 02:22:09 PM »
What could they have been thinking???!!!
Do you think I can look into other people's brains?

I cannot. But I have seen a poll before, where about half of the polled GOARCH members said, the church should make Greek Culture an equal priority as Orthodox Christianity.


For the life of me, I cannot understand this kneejerk reaction - well, it looks a lot like prejudice to me, actually - against the "Greeks." First of all, they are not monolithic. If you have three Greeks, you have five opinions. There is no sinister Greek conspiracy to take over ACROD and make them eat kalamari instead of pierogies, or whatever it is that they eat.
Trust me, I know the "Greeks" well - I love them and they exasperate me in about equal proportions!
ACROD is lucky to get a Hierarch like Bishop Gregorios.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #264 on: August 30, 2012, 02:26:30 PM »
Nothing against Bishop Gregorios personally, but the man is a Greek American, who was serving in the Greek tradition until very recently, and he does not speak a word of the language of Carpatho-Ruthenia. In other words, this is the end of the Carpatho-Ruthenian character of ACROD. Probably, after him, the parishes will just be put directly under the local Greek bishop.

In that sense, let us sing for ACROD: Vechnaya pamyat! Memory eternal!

I am one of those who does not really care about ethnicity, except when it overshadows worship and then I oppose it. Therefore, I'm hopeful that the election of a Greek-American to head ACROD will result in less "Greekness" and less "Carpatho-Ruthenianness" in ACROD, with the result that the exemplary spirituality of ACROd will deepen further and be a model for the other jurisdictions. (By "exemplary spirituality," I have in mind the regular church attendance of 47%). I pray that Bishop Gregorios and his flock will be patient with each other so that this experiment in American Orthodoxy will be successful.

Offline Basil 320

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #265 on: August 30, 2012, 02:32:52 PM »
It is unworthy of the Ecumenical (universal) character of the Patriarchate of Constantinople to place a Greek bishop in ACROD. When the EP placed Greek bishops in Bulgaria, and refused to acknowledge the Bulgarian dissatisfaction with that, a schism was the consequence. Luckily, that is history now. But it is a shame that they have not learnt from history.

And I say that as a person whose main parish is under the EP, and I would always defend the EP against the MP, his All-Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew gainst accusations of ecumenism, etc. But this time, they have made a mistake. Would it have been so hard to get someone from ACROD itself to become bishop, or someone from the Czechoslovak church?

It really seems like ACROD escaped to Constantinople to avoid being russified, only to become hellenised 3 generations later.
Gorazd, you make a lot of sense.  Especially about "hellenizing the Carpatho-Russians" in ACROD.  The EP did the same thing in Romania but to a lesser extent than what happened in Bulgaria during the days of the Ottoman Empire. Is the EP trying to build another empire?  I don't know but their actions are NOT right.  The search in the
"old Country" was not taken seriously: surely at least one or two monks could have emigrated to the USA and lived here a few years to see if they or one of them fitted in and was suitaable bishop material.

Wrong!  There's been no "hellenizing the Carpatho-Rusyns in ACROD; NONE.

You're confusing what the Metropolia did to the Carpatho-Russians who converted to Eastern Orthodox Christianity via the Metropolia.  The Metropolia totally Russified the Carpatho-Rusyn parishes and their faithful who converted to Orthodox Christianity, a fact acknowledged by Metropolitan Orestes, of Blessed Memory, and his fellow Carpatho-Rusyn founders of ACROD.

The Metropolia/OCA have always been jealous of the loving association between ACROD, and the GOAA/EP, since ACROD's founding in 1937.  Some things don't change.
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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #266 on: August 30, 2012, 02:41:29 PM »
Care to substantiate that, too?  I don't know any ACROD parishes that do anything but ACROD customs.  
I can only tell you that there still are a lot of Greek customs in Bulgaria today, from EP jurisdiction times. In the last few years, Hellenophiles, who have often been monks on Athos, are making a comeback. In the dioceses of Sofia and Plovdiv, they are even imposing Byzantine chant, making flee many people who love the beauty of the Kyiv choral.

As for ACROD, we will see in 10 or 20 years, how they will celebrate.

There are a lot of Greek customs in Bulgaria because they were "Greeks" for almost a 1000 years. The idiots who make the claims you are have no sense of history, and forget that "Bulgarian" practice is an invented thing by the Russians of the 1800's when their influence grew over Bulgaria. Some of the most ancient Byzantine Notation music compositions are in Slavonic and come from Bulgaria.

Here is another fact about the Carpathian practice, it is more similar to the current Greek practices then the Russians. Many of the Carpathian Rus in the Ukraine became Roman Catholic when faced with Russification by the Russian Orthodox Church after WWII.

Joseph

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #267 on: August 30, 2012, 02:49:58 PM »
As for the claim that the new hierarch doesn't speak the language of the Ruthenian people, does this mean that he doesn't speak English?  I'm willing to bet that hardly anyone among the flock has any true fluency in Church Slavonic and it is doubtful that many under 35 have anything but a scant and passive understanding of Ruthenian, Slovak, Ukrainian, or whatever modern Slavic language they consider to be their ancestral tongue.

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #268 on: August 30, 2012, 02:50:47 PM »
Is the EP trying to build another empire?

ACROD an empire? 10k faithful here and there? They would fit in 2-3 Białystok parishes.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?
« Reply #269 on: August 30, 2012, 04:19:13 PM »
Would it have been so hard to get someone from ACROD itself to become bishop, or someone from the Czechoslovak church?


Apparently it was.
AFAIK, they did not make an official request to Met. Christopher to suggest someone. They just asked their own priests if someone knew someone in the Old Country, and no one made a suggestion, so they turned to the Greeks, instead of seriously pursuing the issue.

"As far as you know"? Well, what DO you know of our two year search? You are aware that we are an English-speaking diocese and you easy solution was not so easy, I'm sure. So again, what DO you know?
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