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Author Topic: Successor Hierarch for the ACROD?  (Read 22829 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #180 on: November 05, 2011, 04:55:40 PM »

That sounds like a recipe for success :-P.
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« Reply #181 on: November 05, 2011, 05:37:50 PM »

Quote
Do I sense that you suspect such an arrangement for one of the existing UOC-USA or perhaps UOC-Canada bishops being 'directed' by the EP is being contemplated? Interesting.....(as Spock would note....)

I did want to add that as to a priest from GOA being considered, any such hypothetical candidate would have to NOT be a Hellenist at heart and would have to possess some sense of Slavic propriety in order to succeed. I am not sure such a person exists!
 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 04:45:23 PM by podkarpatska » 
 

ACROD would be welcome to take Bishop Andrij of Toronto.  He has been moved around so much and he doesn't fit in.

Interesting. How doesn't he fit in??
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« Reply #182 on: November 05, 2011, 06:18:03 PM »

IMHO, I would like to see Admiralnick in full bishop regalia blessing the faithful from the ambo in Johnstown.
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« Reply #183 on: November 10, 2011, 04:41:49 PM »

IMHO, I would like to see Admiralnick in full bishop regalia blessing the faithful from the ambo in Johnstown.

Yea, I'd like to see that too actually. *grabs some popcorn.

-Nick
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« Reply #184 on: November 12, 2011, 07:02:02 PM »

If it's a fasting day make sure to use maragrine and not actual butter on that popcorn unless you get a disposition first.
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« Reply #185 on: November 12, 2011, 07:03:33 PM »

If it's a fasting day make sure to use maragrine and not actual butter on that popcorn unless you get a disposition first.

What calendar are you using?!  Wink
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« Reply #186 on: November 15, 2011, 03:57:59 PM »

IMHO, I would like to see Admiralnick in full bishop regalia blessing the faithful from the ambo in Johnstown.
Who's that? How does he come into play?
By the way, would ACROD accept Greek/Russian/ OCA monastics as bishops?
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« Reply #187 on: November 15, 2011, 04:47:08 PM »

If it's a fasting day make sure to use maragrine and not actual butter on that popcorn unless you get a disposition first.

Dispensation; and if he's in hierarchical regalia, then he's the one to give the dispensation Wink
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« Reply #188 on: November 15, 2011, 04:53:52 PM »

ACROD is too disorganized as an entity to end this in the near future. One of 3 things will happen:

1) A Ukrainian will become bishop
2) A Greek will become bishop
3) Someone will become a "temporary" bishop.

-Nick

Pot: The kettle is black! Oh my!.......

And BTW, there is a 'temporary' bishop, i.e., the Locum Tenens, Archbishop Demetrios.  I, and many others, refrain from letting our personal feelings or experiences with other jurisdictions and clergy color our remarks or observations. I have much I could say, but I was taught not to do so and I will not other than my opening observation.



I meant Temporary bishop as in ruling hierarch of the diocese until they find someone permanent, not as in a Locum Tenens arrangement. There was no malice intended in my post. I was merely sharing the truth of the situation. ACROD as a whole is not well organized and therefore will have problems finding a hierarch. If you think that I am being disingenuous you are free to prove to me the organization of ACROD. Of course it's tough to do when the position has been vacant this long with basically no action being taken. Hardly an example of good organization.

-Nick

I appreciate that you meant no malice.

I merely was alluding to the reality that in many ways the ACROD vacancy dilemma mirrors that of our divided Orthodox house in the Americas as a whole. The difficulties of finding capable and wise Bishops from 'within' one jurisdiction or another are well known to us all. For that matter even finding them within our own continent becomes problematic for many!

For the record though, for an organization with is 'not well organized', the history of then ACROD bears a different witness. From its founding in 1938 through the current 'inter-regnum', succession was never a problem. A successor was found for the late Metropolitan Orestes Chornock in 1966 some years prior to his becoming incapable of discharging the duties of his office in the late 1960's. That Bishop (+John) died suddenly in dramatic fashion as a young man at the end of a banquet in his early 50's. In spite of that, the ACROD immediately had two viable candidates to replace him and that transition occurred within a few months of his sudden death. (It should be noted that one of those candidates was at the time a Bishop in a sister-jurisdiction and the other, a young man at the time, is now an OCA bishop.)

Perhaps the dearth of young men becoming either monastic priests or celibate pastors over the past generation has contributed to the problems of 'bishop-search' across the Orthodox Americas!

Getting back to your three main points, as to a 'Ukrainian' becoming bishop, I suppose that is possible, particularly if one gets into the entire Rusyn/Ukrainian ethnology. (One could argue, for example, that several of the UOC bishops in the US and Canada are at least in part, Rusyn.....One could make the same argument about the last three men to be chosen Bishop in the OCA for that matter.....not to mention the late Archbishop Job, of thrice blessed memory...) As to a Greek, I think such a proposal would not be accepted by the still independent minded body of parishes, although it would be far less of a problem than it would have been a generation ago. As to a 'temporary bishop', I am not sure what you mean by that other than the appointment of a different LT.



Dear friend--Don't get mad at me but if the issue is to get a bishop who is "nashi," there are already two in the OCA--Bishop Michael and Bishop Matthias. You could go the way of the Albanian, Romanian and Bulgarian Dioceses, split the 81 parishes into two groups of 40 and put each one under the Bishops of Chicago and NY. You get to keep your autonomy and your nashiness (is this a word?).  Wink
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« Reply #189 on: November 15, 2011, 05:06:48 PM »

I would have hyphenated it.
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« Reply #190 on: November 15, 2011, 07:44:50 PM »

ACROD is too disorganized as an entity to end this in the near future. One of 3 things will happen:

1) A Ukrainian will become bishop
2) A Greek will become bishop
3) Someone will become a "temporary" bishop.

-Nick

Pot: The kettle is black! Oh my!.......

And BTW, there is a 'temporary' bishop, i.e., the Locum Tenens, Archbishop Demetrios.  I, and many others, refrain from letting our personal feelings or experiences with other jurisdictions and clergy color our remarks or observations. I have much I could say, but I was taught not to do so and I will not other than my opening observation.



I meant Temporary bishop as in ruling hierarch of the diocese until they find someone permanent, not as in a Locum Tenens arrangement. There was no malice intended in my post. I was merely sharing the truth of the situation. ACROD as a whole is not well organized and therefore will have problems finding a hierarch. If you think that I am being disingenuous you are free to prove to me the organization of ACROD. Of course it's tough to do when the position has been vacant this long with basically no action being taken. Hardly an example of good organization.

-Nick

I appreciate that you meant no malice.

I merely was alluding to the reality that in many ways the ACROD vacancy dilemma mirrors that of our divided Orthodox house in the Americas as a whole. The difficulties of finding capable and wise Bishops from 'within' one jurisdiction or another are well known to us all. For that matter even finding them within our own continent becomes problematic for many!

For the record though, for an organization with is 'not well organized', the history of then ACROD bears a different witness. From its founding in 1938 through the current 'inter-regnum', succession was never a problem. A successor was found for the late Metropolitan Orestes Chornock in 1966 some years prior to his becoming incapable of discharging the duties of his office in the late 1960's. That Bishop (+John) died suddenly in dramatic fashion as a young man at the end of a banquet in his early 50's. In spite of that, the ACROD immediately had two viable candidates to replace him and that transition occurred within a few months of his sudden death. (It should be noted that one of those candidates was at the time a Bishop in a sister-jurisdiction and the other, a young man at the time, is now an OCA bishop.)

Perhaps the dearth of young men becoming either monastic priests or celibate pastors over the past generation has contributed to the problems of 'bishop-search' across the Orthodox Americas!

Getting back to your three main points, as to a 'Ukrainian' becoming bishop, I suppose that is possible, particularly if one gets into the entire Rusyn/Ukrainian ethnology. (One could argue, for example, that several of the UOC bishops in the US and Canada are at least in part, Rusyn.....One could make the same argument about the last three men to be chosen Bishop in the OCA for that matter.....not to mention the late Archbishop Job, of thrice blessed memory...) As to a Greek, I think such a proposal would not be accepted by the still independent minded body of parishes, although it would be far less of a problem than it would have been a generation ago. As to a 'temporary bishop', I am not sure what you mean by that other than the appointment of a different LT.



Dear friend--Don't get mad at me but if the issue is to get a bishop who is "nashi," there are already two in the OCA--Bishop Michael and Bishop Matthias. You could go the way of the Albanian, Romanian and Bulgarian Dioceses, split the 81 parishes into two groups of 40 and put each one under the Bishops of Chicago and NY. You get to keep your autonomy and your nashiness (is this a word?).  Wink

For a variety of historical and practical reasons, that is not likely to happen.
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« Reply #191 on: November 15, 2011, 09:18:27 PM »

Admiralnick for Vladkyo
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« Reply #192 on: November 15, 2011, 09:33:44 PM »

IMHO, I would like to see Admiralnick in full bishop regalia blessing the faithful from the ambo in Johnstown.
Who's that? How does he come into play?

A joke. Admiralnick is a user here.

Quote
By the way, would ACROD accept Greek/Russian/ OCA monastics as bishops?

Those may be the only options on the table.
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« Reply #193 on: November 15, 2011, 09:35:43 PM »

Admiralnick would be the perfect candidate; he's Ukrainian err. Carpatho-Russian, he's stellar in intelligence, and he loves Johnstown and his dream is to build a summer home there.
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« Reply #194 on: November 16, 2011, 09:59:18 AM »

Admiralnick would be the perfect candidate; he's Ukrainian err. Carpatho-Russian, he's stellar in intelligence, and he loves Johnstown and his dream is to build a summer home there.


Are you doing contracting in the greater PA area? I think we can clear out some of the forest at Camp Nazareth for my dream home.

-Nick
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« Reply #195 on: November 16, 2011, 04:14:49 PM »

I get the joke, but he aouldn't be considerable now. He's old enough to be a deacon, but I don't know if he actually wants this.
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« Reply #196 on: November 16, 2011, 05:13:40 PM »

Admiralnick would be the perfect candidate; he's Ukrainian err. Carpatho-Russian, he's stellar in intelligence, and he loves Johnstown and his dream is to build a summer home there.


Are you doing contracting in the greater PA area? I think we can clear out some of the forest at Camp Nazareth for my dream home.

-Nick

I can always be doing contracting in the greater pa area.  I think a new bishop's residence could be fast put in order for you.  Eis Polla Eti Despota Vladkyo Nikolai
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« Reply #197 on: November 17, 2011, 11:31:57 AM »

I get the joke, but he aouldn't be considerable now. He's old enough to be a deacon, but I don't know if he actually wants this.

My dad always said that one should not 'want' to be a Bishop!  Wink
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« Reply #198 on: June 04, 2012, 05:17:59 PM »

The Consistory of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese of the U.S.A., with the permission of Archbishop Demetrios of America, Diocesan Locum Tenens and  Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, is recommending Fr. Gregorios Tatsis, Presiding Priest of the oldest Orthodox parish community in the United States, Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Cathedral in New Orleans, Louisiana, as the successor of the beloved Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos, of blessed memory.  Fr. Gregorios's name will be presented to a Special Assembly which will be convened in July at the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Johnstown, Pennsylvania; other eligible names, after vetting, may be presented to the Assembly also.  The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese will be celebrating the 75th Anniversary of the founding of the diocese under the omophorion of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.
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« Reply #199 on: June 04, 2012, 05:25:41 PM »

The Consistory of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese of the U.S.A., with the permission of Archbishop Demetrios of America, Diocesan Locum Tenens and  Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, is recommending Fr. Gregorios Tatsis, Presiding Priest of the oldest Orthodox parish community in the United States, Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Cathedral in New Orleans, Louisiana, as the successor of the beloved Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos, of blessed memory.  Fr. Gregorios's name will be presented to a Special Assembly which will be convened in July at the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Johnstown, Pennsylvania; other eligible names, after vetting, may be presented to the Assembly also.  The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese will be celebrating the 75th Anniversary of the founding of the diocese under the omophorion of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.
How long has Fr. Gregorios been at Holy Trinity Cathedral?
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« Reply #200 on: June 04, 2012, 05:53:50 PM »

The Consistory of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese of the U.S.A., with the permission of Archbishop Demetrios of America, Diocesan Locum Tenens and  Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, is recommending Fr. Gregorios Tatsis, Presiding Priest of the oldest Orthodox parish community in the United States, Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Cathedral in New Orleans, Louisiana, as the successor of the beloved Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos, of blessed memory.  Fr. Gregorios's name will be presented to a Special Assembly which will be convened in July at the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Johnstown, Pennsylvania; other eligible names, after vetting, may be presented to the Assembly also.  The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese will be celebrating the 75th Anniversary of the founding of the diocese under the omophorion of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.
How long has Fr. Gregorios been at Holy Trinity Cathedral?

About a year.
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« Reply #201 on: June 05, 2012, 06:46:20 AM »

Does Fr. Gregorios speak any Ukr... I mean Carpatho-Ruthenian?
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« Reply #202 on: June 05, 2012, 08:41:40 AM »

The Consistory of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese of the U.S.A., with the permission of Archbishop Demetrios of America, Diocesan Locum Tenens and  Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, is recommending Fr. Gregorios Tatsis, Presiding Priest of the oldest Orthodox parish community in the United States, Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Cathedral in New Orleans, Louisiana, as the successor of the beloved Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos, of blessed memory.  Fr. Gregorios's name will be presented to a Special Assembly which will be convened in July at the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Johnstown, Pennsylvania; other eligible names, after vetting, may be presented to the Assembly also.  The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese will be celebrating the 75th Anniversary of the founding of the diocese under the omophorion of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.
How long has Fr. Gregorios been at Holy Trinity Cathedral?

About a year.
Ah.  I was there 4 years ago.  Lovely parish.  Fine people.
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« Reply #203 on: June 05, 2012, 09:44:15 AM »

Does Fr. Gregorios speak any Ukr... I mean Carpatho-Ruthenian?

Probably not, but not many of us speak anything other than English. I haven't heard a speech or a sermon in the Rusyn dialect since I was in high school over forty years ago so that's not a problem. Although the late Metropolitan Nicholas was able to converse freely with his colleagues in Slovakia and Ukraine on his many visits there over the years....
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« Reply #204 on: June 06, 2012, 03:48:08 AM »

Does Fr. Gregorios speak any Ukr... I mean Carpatho-Ruthenian?

Probably not, but not many of us speak anything other than English.

So what is the point of maintaining ACROD as a separate jurisdiction? I thought it originally was founded in order to maintain Carpatho-Rusyn culture.

If that culture has disappeared, why not merge ACROD with GOARCH or the OCA?
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« Reply #205 on: June 06, 2012, 09:01:26 AM »

I didn't say that our culture disappeared - just the speaking of a language other than English among second, third and beyond generation Americans. Much of the OCA is of Carpatho-Rusyn background as well and the speaking of 'po-nashemu' (the Rusyn dialect) has disappeared there as well. Language does not equal culture or traditions.
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« Reply #206 on: June 06, 2012, 09:16:20 AM »

Does Fr. Gregorios speak any Ukr... I mean Carpatho-Ruthenian?

Probably not, but not many of us speak anything other than English.

So what is the point of maintaining ACROD as a separate jurisdiction? I thought it originally was founded in order to maintain Carpatho-Rusyn culture.

If that culture has disappeared, why not merge ACROD with GOARCH or the OCA?
I remember once, during a search for a new priest, someone asked if he spoke "the language."  Someone said "yes, he speaks English."

Even in the OCA, if everything is in English, you can tell the difference between a Carpatho-Russian parish and a "Great Russian" parish.
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« Reply #207 on: June 06, 2012, 09:33:39 AM »

Does Fr. Gregorios speak any Ukr... I mean Carpatho-Ruthenian?

Probably not, but not many of us speak anything other than English.

So what is the point of maintaining ACROD as a separate jurisdiction? I thought it originally was founded in order to maintain Carpatho-Rusyn culture.

If that culture has disappeared, why not merge ACROD with GOARCH or the OCA?
I remember once, during a search for a new priest, someone asked if he spoke "the language."  Someone said "yes, he speaks English."

Even in the OCA, if everything is in English, you can tell the difference between a Carpatho-Russian parish and a "Great Russian" parish.

That is quite true. It should be noted that second and third generation Slavic families were not as likely to pass along the language of the old world to their children in the period following the second world war. The US was frenzied with the 'Red Scare' and those of eastern European background were often singled out as potentially members of the pro-Soviet 'fifth column.' I think that is the main reason that many Slavic families lost the old language more quickly than did Greeks as a counterpoint.

The example Isa cites of being able to tell the difference between a CR parish and a 'Great Russian' parish in the OCA is on point and I think shows us what we can expect to find for the foreseeable future within a one-day unified administrative Orthodox structure in the USA.
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« Reply #208 on: June 06, 2012, 11:47:39 AM »

What are the differences in the service of the OCA and ACROD? Is it the chant sung by the choir? Since both use primarily english and both embrace pan slavish and pro-american Orthodoxy, I am curious what differences one would see if they went to liturgies in both.
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« Reply #209 on: June 06, 2012, 12:04:42 PM »

What are the differences in the service of the OCA and ACROD? Is it the chant sung by the choir? Since both use primarily english and both embrace pan slavish and pro-american Orthodoxy, I am curious what differences one would see if they went to liturgies in both.


Very little, particularly across the Northeast, mid-Atlantic and Mid-west USA - with the exception of the OCA parishes which Isa referred to as 'Great Russian.' How much Russian practice was adopted at any particular parish depends on its particular history and likely, the inclinations of early pastors 'back in the day.'  The liturgies are substantially the same and choral singing is the norm most Sundays although you will hear more Rusyn chant in ACROD than in OCA parishes. In the ACROD the felon of the priest is likely to be in the 'Greek' style, while in the OCA you will see a mixture of Russian 'high back' styles with the Greek style. OCA is new calendar and ACROD is about 60/40 old calendar. English is the norm in both.
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« Reply #210 on: June 06, 2012, 12:09:00 PM »

What are the differences in the service of the OCA and ACROD? Is it the chant sung by the choir? Since both use primarily english and both embrace pan slavish and pro-american Orthodoxy, I am curious what differences one would see if they went to liturgies in both.

The difference I was talking about was the "Great Russian" end of the OCA versus ACROD, which has no "Great Russian" influence that I know of.  A lot of the OCA falls between the two.

For lack of a better term, the ACROD/"Nash" OCA tend to the "folksy": not only the choir singing, less opera, less of a lay audience for a clerical show with a full cast/caste, more popular pieties (embroidered cloths, usually of a local design, hanging, well, on practically anything you can hang them on), more eclectic iconography, etc...
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« Reply #211 on: June 06, 2012, 12:23:20 PM »

What are the differences in the service of the OCA and ACROD? Is it the chant sung by the choir? Since both use primarily english and both embrace pan slavish and pro-american Orthodoxy, I am curious what differences one would see if they went to liturgies in both.

The difference I was talking about was the "Great Russian" end of the OCA versus ACROD, which has no "Great Russian" influence that I know of.  A lot of the OCA falls between the two.

For lack of a better term, the ACROD/"Nash" OCA tend to the "folksy": not only the choir singing, less opera, less of a lay audience for a clerical show with a full cast/caste, more popular pieties (embroidered cloths, usually of a local design, hanging, well, on practically anything you can hang them on), more eclectic iconography, etc...

Many of those distinctions depend on the particular region of the parish founders and may be seen in various Ukrainian parishes - both UGCC and UOC - as well as ACROD and OCA. I would agree that they are more prevalent in ACROD than in OCA, but it varies as we both said.
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« Reply #212 on: June 06, 2012, 12:40:39 PM »

The Consistory of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese of the U.S.A., with the permission of Archbishop Demetrios of America, Diocesan Locum Tenens and  Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, is recommending Fr. Gregorios Tatsis, Presiding Priest of the oldest Orthodox parish community in the United States, Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Cathedral in New Orleans, Louisiana, as the successor of the beloved Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos, of blessed memory.  Fr. Gregorios's name will be presented to a Special Assembly which will be convened in July at the Christ the Savior Cathedral in Johnstown, Pennsylvania; other eligible names, after vetting, may be presented to the Assembly also.  The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese will be celebrating the 75th Anniversary of the founding of the diocese under the omophorion of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.
How long has Fr. Gregorios been at Holy Trinity Cathedral?

He started at the Cathedral in October.  Prior to that he was the Ierokyrix of the Metropolis of Atlanta, and the Spiritual Advisor for the Youth Programs.  He was the interim pastor for 3 months in Raleigh, NC while the parish was waiting for their new priest (their previous pastor became the Dean of the Matropolis Cathedral in Atlanta).  He's traveled extensively throughout the Metropolis of Atlanta since his ordination in the winter of 2007, preaching and hearing confessions, attending every week of Summer Camp, and being a terrific spiritual presence in the Metropolis. 

Before that, he was in medical research for over 20 years, and has been the parish council president of two different parishes as well (both in the Charlotte area).
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« Reply #213 on: June 06, 2012, 06:54:49 PM »

Seriously please, are the differences between regular OCA and ACROD parishes still big enough to justify separate jurisdictions? And let us not forget that the OCA has 2 Carpatho-Rusyn bishops with a background in ACROD, whereas ACROD will probably have a Greek bishop soon...

This really reminds me of my native city, Stuttgart, Germany, where we now have 3 parishes in Russian tradition, all in different jurisdictions... (ROCOR, MP and Rue Daru/EP)... I wish we could return to one city - one bishop.
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« Reply #214 on: June 06, 2012, 07:05:58 PM »

This really reminds me of my native city, Stuttgart, Germany, where we now have 3 parishes in Russian tradition, all in different jurisdictions... (ROCOR, MP and Rue Daru/EP)... I wish we could return to one city - one bishop.

Do they co-work together?
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« Reply #215 on: June 06, 2012, 07:16:06 PM »

Do they co-work together?

Rue Daru and MP do. In general, there is hope to bring all Orthodox parishes in the city together more closely...

Actually, what is funny is that neither of the 3 jurisdictions has a Russian bishop: the MP has an Ukrainian, ROCOR a German and Rue Daru a Belgian.
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« Reply #216 on: June 06, 2012, 07:32:38 PM »

Seriously please, are the differences between regular OCA and ACROD parishes still big enough to justify separate jurisdictions? And let us not forget that the OCA has 2 Carpatho-Rusyn bishops with a background in ACROD, whereas ACROD will probably have a Greek bishop soon...

This really reminds me of my native city, Stuttgart, Germany, where we now have 3 parishes in Russian tradition, all in different jurisdictions... (ROCOR, MP and Rue Daru/EP)... I wish we could return to one city - one bishop.
The bigger difference now is that the OCA is autocephalous and ACROD is not.
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« Reply #217 on: June 06, 2012, 07:54:30 PM »

The bigger difference now is that the OCA is autocephalous and ACROD is not.

The OCA calls itself autocephalous. But Goarch is about 5 or 10 times as large...
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« Reply #218 on: June 06, 2012, 08:03:22 PM »

The bigger difference now is that the OCA is autocephalous and ACROD is not.

The OCA calls itself autocephalous. But Goarch is about 5 or 10 times as large...
No, the OCA's mother Church calls her autocephalous, and she is 10-20 times as large as the Phanar, GOARCH's master, so what's your point?
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« Reply #219 on: June 06, 2012, 08:41:19 PM »

ialmisry,

I thoght my point was clear, but just for you: An autocephalous church ideally should have jurisdiction over all canonical Orthodox people in its area. If this is not the case, at least it should be approximated for the autocephaly to have credibility. For the OCA, this simply isn't the case. And I do wish the US to have its own autocephalous church, uniting all Orthodox there. (Also, there is no reason why Canada should be under the US, but that would be another topic.)
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« Reply #220 on: June 06, 2012, 11:06:21 PM »

ialmisry,

I thoght my point was clear, but just for you: An autocephalous church ideally should have jurisdiction over all canonical Orthodox people in its area. If this is not the case, at least it should be approximated for the autocephaly to have credibility. For the OCA, this simply isn't the case. And I do wish the US to have its own autocephalous church, uniting all Orthodox there. (Also, there is no reason why Canada should be under the US, but that would be another topic.)

You were clear.  However, although Isa is a great asset to OCnet, and even though orthodoxhistory website has successfully demonstrated that although the Russian Metropolia did have legitimate jurisdiction over Alaska while it was part of Russia, that this jurisdiction did not give it jurisdiction over Canada and the US, that the RM was not the first nor "sole" jurisdiction in the US and Canada, that the Greeks being one of the two of the first far outnumber the rest, that to be autocephalous you have to have complete jurisdiction over all Orthodox Christians in said canonical territory... Still, he will not admit that what you said is right, sadly.   
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« Reply #221 on: June 06, 2012, 11:39:20 PM »

ialmisry,

I thoght my point was clear, but just for you: An autocephalous church ideally should have jurisdiction over all canonical Orthodox people in its area. If this is not the case, at least it should be approximated for the autocephaly to have credibility. For the OCA, this simply isn't the case. And I do wish the US to have its own autocephalous church, uniting all Orthodox there. (Also, there is no reason why Canada should be under the US, but that would be another topic.)
Somewhere here I've posted the Canadian incorporation (1903?, thereabouts) recognizing the jurisdiction of the Russian Archbishop of North America (i.e., Met. Jonah predecessor) and his successors.  But that's another issue.

Few "Mother Churches," NOT including either the Phanar nor Moscow, has jurisdiction over all canonical Orthodox people in its area. Estonia, case in point. That's, unfortunately, nothing new.

The Phanar thought it would rid itself of the OCA problem with the Episcopal Assembly scheme.  Abp. Demetrios, God grant him many years!, ignored the memo, and now the Phanar is stuck with an autocephalous OCA it is in communion with.  If the ethnarch wants to see himself as the Sultan's Patriarch of the Rum, he's welcome to do so.  Just don't expect us to play along.
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« Reply #222 on: June 06, 2012, 11:43:12 PM »

ialmisry,

I thoght my point was clear, but just for you: An autocephalous church ideally should have jurisdiction over all canonical Orthodox people in its area. If this is not the case, at least it should be approximated for the autocephaly to have credibility. For the OCA, this simply isn't the case. And I do wish the US to have its own autocephalous church, uniting all Orthodox there. (Also, there is no reason why Canada should be under the US, but that would be another topic.)

You were clear.  However, although Isa is a great asset to OCnet, and even though orthodoxhistory website has successfully demonstrated that although the Russian Metropolia did have legitimate jurisdiction over Alaska while it was part of Russia, that this jurisdiction did not give it jurisdiction over Canada and the US, that the RM was not the first nor "sole" jurisdiction in the US and Canada, that the Greeks being one of the two of the first far outnumber the rest, that to be autocephalous you have to have complete jurisdiction over all Orthodox Christians in said canonical territory... Still, he will not admit that what you said is right, sadly.  
Father, OH has denied, but not disproven, Russia jurisdiction over North America.  No sustained idea of jurisdiction has been presented.  Nor has it even touched the autocephaly debate that I have seen.

thanks for the compliment, btw, Father.
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« Reply #223 on: June 06, 2012, 11:53:38 PM »

ialmisry,

I thoght my point was clear, but just for you: An autocephalous church ideally should have jurisdiction over all canonical Orthodox people in its area. If this is not the case, at least it should be approximated for the autocephaly to have credibility. For the OCA, this simply isn't the case. And I do wish the US to have its own autocephalous church, uniting all Orthodox there. (Also, there is no reason why Canada should be under the US, but that would be another topic.)
Somewhere here I've posted the Canadian incorporation (1903?, thereabouts) recognizing the jurisdiction of the Russian Archbishop of North America (i.e., Met. Jonah predecessor) and his successors.  But that's another issue.

Few "Mother Churches," NOT including either the Phanar nor Moscow, has jurisdiction over all canonical Orthodox people in its area. Estonia, case in point. That's, unfortunately, nothing new.

The Phanar thought it would rid itself of the OCA problem with the Episcopal Assembly scheme.  Abp. Demetrios, God grant him many years!, ignored the memo, and now the Phanar is stuck with an autocephalous OCA it is in communion with.  If the ethnarch wants to see himself as the Sultan's Patriarch of the Rum, he's welcome to do so.  Just don't expect us to play along.

Not true.  History is filled with a non-recognition of autocephaly while at the same time recognizing canonicity.  That is precisely what Constantinople and HE Demetrios (and yes, truly may God grant him many years) did.  If there was such a memo from the Patriarch and +D ignored it then +D would not still be here, but he is.   HAH Bartholomew made it clear to then Met. Herman on his visit that OCA is recognized fully as canonical, just not as de jure autocephalous (even though operationally autocephalous).   
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« Reply #224 on: June 06, 2012, 11:54:39 PM »

ialmisry,

I thoght my point was clear, but just for you: An autocephalous church ideally should have jurisdiction over all canonical Orthodox people in its area. If this is not the case, at least it should be approximated for the autocephaly to have credibility. For the OCA, this simply isn't the case. And I do wish the US to have its own autocephalous church, uniting all Orthodox there. (Also, there is no reason why Canada should be under the US, but that would be another topic.)

You were clear.  However, although Isa is a great asset to OCnet, and even though orthodoxhistory website has successfully demonstrated that although the Russian Metropolia did have legitimate jurisdiction over Alaska while it was part of Russia, that this jurisdiction did not give it jurisdiction over Canada and the US, that the RM was not the first nor "sole" jurisdiction in the US and Canada, that the Greeks being one of the two of the first far outnumber the rest, that to be autocephalous you have to have complete jurisdiction over all Orthodox Christians in said canonical territory... Still, he will not admit that what you said is right, sadly.  
Father, OH has denied, but not disproven, Russia jurisdiction over North America.  No sustained idea of jurisdiction has been presented.  Nor has it even touched the autocephaly debate that I have seen.

thanks for the compliment, btw, Father.

It was not just a compliment, it was the truth. 
btw you are wrong about the other stuff   Wink 
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