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Author Topic: Will I be baptized?  (Read 2098 times) Average Rating: 0
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TristanCross
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« on: May 09, 2011, 10:11:16 PM »

Hey,

I was wondering, will I have to be baptized when I become Orthodox? I was already baptized as a child in the Lutheran Church. I'm not sure if Orthodox Christians see non-Orthodox Church's baptisms as valid, though (the Roman Catholic Church does).
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2011, 10:15:45 PM »

Hey,

I was wondering, will I have to be baptized when I become Orthodox? I was already baptized as a child in the Lutheran Church. I'm not sure if Orthodox Christians see non-Orthodox Church's baptisms as valid, though (the Roman Catholic Church does).

This will depend on your priest and his bishop. Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2011, 10:16:42 PM »

I think the policy is that if you were baptized with the Trinitarian formula- 'in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit'- you may not have to have another baptism and may be received by Chrismation. (You may want to get your baptismal certificate, if you can, and discuss it with the priest.)

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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2011, 10:25:14 PM »

It depends on the jurisdiction.

You actually have a degree of choice in the matter as you could petition your bishop's permission to be received one way or the other.
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2011, 10:42:47 PM »

I say Chose the full Imersion Baptisim tell your Bishop that's how you want it,You will be born Anew, a New Creature, Sinless for that brief time after baptisim Plus No Confession,until you start aquiring sins....But your Past ones will be gone for sure....Talking and writing about it, i want a  due over as well,...... Grin
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2011, 10:43:52 PM »

I was wondering, will I have to be baptized when I become Orthodox?

Does this reveal a negative attitude about reception of heterodox Christians by baptism?
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2011, 11:30:20 PM »

Hey,

I was wondering, will I have to be baptized when I become Orthodox? I was already baptized as a child in the Lutheran Church. I'm not sure if Orthodox Christians see non-Orthodox Church's baptisms as valid, though (the Roman Catholic Church does).

It depends. Some see heterodox Trinitarian baptisms as inauthentic and feel the need to baptize converts from heterodoxy. Some see heterodox Trinitarian baptisms as inauthentic, but nonetheless feel that their form can graced by Chrismation. Some see heterodox Trinitarian baptisms as legitimate.
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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2011, 11:45:42 PM »

Honestly, I do want to be baptized into the Orthodox faith. It may sound weird, but I want that experience of putting Christ on and having my sins cleansed completely. Because I was a baby when I was baptized in the Lutheran church, I obviously have no recollection of it. I want to begin my new life in the Church with a fresh start in baptism.
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2011, 11:50:58 PM »

It's not weird. There are a number of us here who have wanted to be baptized in our conversions. Some have even chosen jurisdictions on the basis of where that desire could be actualized. I would recommend you express this desire to your Priest, but ultimately recognize that he is your spiritual authority and that it's not just up to you to decide this.
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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2011, 09:24:14 AM »

Honestly, I do want to be baptized into the Orthodox faith. It may sound weird, but I want that experience of putting Christ on and having my sins cleansed completely. Because I was a baby when I was baptized in the Lutheran church, I obviously have no recollection of it. I want to begin my new life in the Church with a fresh start in baptism.

This is a common feeling, shared by many, but rest assured, whether you "feel" it or not, if you are received into the Orthodox Church by chrismation, you will indeed begin a new life, "sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit."
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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2011, 09:59:12 AM »

It's not weird. There are a number of us here who have wanted to be baptized in our conversions. Some have even chosen jurisdictions on the basis of where that desire could be actualized. I would recommend you express this desire to your Priest, but ultimately recognize that he is your spiritual authority and that it's not just up to you to decide this.

I would disagree with leaving it up to your priest if your desire is for baptism. He is not your authority yet if you are not yet in the church. You must decide with your conscience. The method of receiving converts is for the converts, not the Church.
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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2011, 10:03:41 AM »

It's not weird. There are a number of us here who have wanted to be baptized in our conversions. Some have even chosen jurisdictions on the basis of where that desire could be actualized. I would recommend you express this desire to your Priest, but ultimately recognize that he is your spiritual authority and that it's not just up to you to decide this.

I would disagree with leaving it up to your priest if your desire is for baptism. He is not your authority yet if you are not yet in the church. You must decide with your conscience. The method of receiving converts is for the converts, not the Church.
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2011, 10:08:31 AM »

Not so sure about being given a choice... I wasn't. I approached my Antiochian priest about being baptized--not that I was going to insist on it, I just wanted to ask about it--and he was very forthright: the Bishop says in cases like mine (former Catholic baptism) that I was not allowed to be baptized, and that I would only be chrismated.
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2011, 10:16:05 AM »

It's not weird. There are a number of us here who have wanted to be baptized in our conversions. Some have even chosen jurisdictions on the basis of where that desire could be actualized. I would recommend you express this desire to your Priest, but ultimately recognize that he is your spiritual authority and that it's not just up to you to decide this.

I would disagree with leaving it up to your priest if your desire is for baptism. He is not your authority yet if you are not yet in the church. You must decide with your conscience. The method of receiving converts is for the converts, not the Church.
How can one enter the Church without passing through the door which she provides and opens?

The Church provides baptism. People can well find a jurisdiction or bishop or priest allowing it. The whole reason why converts are received by other means is to make conversion easier. No non-Orthodox body  today fulfills all that is necessary for economia to be used--both triple immersion and the name of the Trinity. Also, there is no settled way of receiving heterodox converts, various local churches have gone back and forth, at times receiving by baptism, at times by chrismation--due to various circumstances. It is not set in stone. It would be a form of spiritual malpractice to deny baptism to someone who desires it if they have not previously had an Orthodox baptism and if what they have does not meet the standards of economia.
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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2011, 11:05:41 AM »

I was baptised Lutheran as a child and received into the Church by chrismation and have felt uneasy about it ever since. My advice: If you have a choice, go with baptism to avoid future temptation, regret and confusion.
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2011, 11:36:23 AM »

My two cents:

Unless it is too late...

If you don't believe your original baptism to be a true baptism, it is not a lie to tell the priest that you haven't been baptized.
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2011, 12:04:39 PM »

I was baptized in the Lutheran Church as an infant.  When I was received into Orthodoxy via triple-immersion baptism, it was the best moment of my entire life.
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« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2011, 12:07:14 PM »

I was baptised Lutheran as a child and received into the Church by chrismation and have felt uneasy about it ever since. My advice: If you have a choice, go with baptism to avoid future temptation, regret and confusion.

My situation is the same. I was baptized Lutheran as an infant and received into the Church by chrismation, but I have never felt uneasy, nor have I felt temptation (about that, anyway!), regret and/or confusion. I trusted God, the Church, my bishop and my priest, and rejoiced in my Chrismation. My "feelings" were pretty much beside the point.
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« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2011, 12:07:44 PM »

I was baptized in the Lutheran Church as an infant.  When I was received into Orthodoxy via triple-immersion baptism, it was the best moment of my entire life.

I was baptised at the age of 5 in a pentecostal church. I too was received into Orthodoxy via triple-immersion baptism, and it was the best moment of my entire life as well. Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2011, 12:08:58 PM »

My two cents:

Unless it is too late...

If you don't believe your original baptism to be a true baptism, it is not a lie to tell the priest that you haven't been baptized.

It is not a lie to tell your priest that you don't believe your original baptism was a true one, but it is, IMHO of course, a lie to tell him that you haven't been baptized at all.
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« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2011, 12:12:11 PM »

My two cents:

Unless it is too late...

If you don't believe your original baptism to be a true baptism, it is not a lie to tell the priest that you haven't been baptized.

It is not a lie to tell your priest that you don't believe your original baptism was a true one, but it is, IMHO of course, a lie to tell him that you haven't been baptized at all.

It depends on how you view single immersion Trinitarian non-Orthodox baptisms.
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« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2011, 12:19:06 PM »

I was baptized as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church, then received a "believer's baptism" in the Southern Baptist Church at age 15, then I received my true and fulfilled triple immersion baptism, chrismation and communion in the Serbian Orthodox Church last year at age 28.

I was very hesitant to "get baptized a third time", but as I inquired and was a catechumen for some three years, by the time it came around I fully understood the Orthodox theology of baptism and knew it's what I needed. It was also a lesson of submission to the bishop.

Ultimately, one should listen to their bishop, but I also understand not wanting to violate one's conscience either way. Fortunately for me, my bishop baptizes all converts regardless. He even had a former Roman Catholic priest baptized upon entry. Talk about old-school.
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« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2011, 12:34:32 PM »

My two cents:

Unless it is too late...

If you don't believe your original baptism to be a true baptism, it is not a lie to tell the priest that you haven't been baptized.

It is not a lie to tell your priest that you don't believe your original baptism was a true one, but it is, IMHO of course, a lie to tell him that you haven't been baptized at all.

It depends on how you view single immersion Trinitarian non-Orthodox baptisms.

No, it depends on whether you want to tell your priest the whole story, or whether you want to edit it so that you can get what you want. Is that really a good way to begin?
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« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2011, 12:41:08 PM »

My two cents:

Unless it is too late...

If you don't believe your original baptism to be a true baptism, it is not a lie to tell the priest that you haven't been baptized.

It is not a lie to tell your priest that you don't believe your original baptism was a true one, but it is, IMHO of course, a lie to tell him that you haven't been baptized at all.

It depends on how you view single immersion Trinitarian non-Orthodox baptisms.

No, it depends on whether you want to tell your priest the whole story, or whether you want to edit it so that you can get what you want. Is that really a good way to begin?

If one doesn't believe that one is baptised, it wouldn't be lying. If one was baptised in the name of Jesus, would it be lying to say that one hasn't been baptised? Huh
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« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2011, 12:55:38 PM »

If one doesn't believe that one is baptised, it wouldn't be lying. If one was baptised in the name of Jesus, would it be lying to say that one hasn't been baptised? Huh

That's not a Trinitarian baptism, so it would need to be done properly.

What you are suggesting about withholding information is dishonest and the wrong way to do it. A big part of the lesson of becoming Orthodox is submission to authority, not shopping for a bishop who "works for you". I have known people who were very opposed to being "baptized again" at my parish, but it would have been equally rebellious and presumptuous of them to march over to a Greek church just to get a reception the way that they wanted it. They had to bite the bullet, swallow their pride and obey the bishop. Since this is a pastoral issue and not one of heresy, it's not up to the people to call the shots.
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« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2011, 12:58:40 PM »

If one doesn't believe that one is baptised, it wouldn't be lying. If one was baptised in the name of Jesus, would it be lying to say that one hasn't been baptised? Huh

That's not a Trinitarian baptism, so it would need to be done properly.

What you are suggesting about withholding information is dishonest and the wrong way to do it. A big part of the lesson of becoming Orthodox is submission to authority, not shopping for a bishop who "works for you". I have known people who were very opposed to being "baptized again" at my parish, but it would have been equally rebellious and presumptuous of them to march over to a Greek church just to get a reception the way that they wanted it. They had to bite the bullet, swallow their pride and obey the bishop. Since this is a pastoral issue and not one of heresy, it's not up to the people to call the shots.

I apologize for my bad suggestion. I never looked at it that way before. Thanks for explaining it so well. Smiley

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« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2011, 01:01:46 PM »

My two cents:

Unless it is too late...

If you don't believe your original baptism to be a true baptism, it is not a lie to tell the priest that you haven't been baptized.

It is not a lie to tell your priest that you don't believe your original baptism was a true one, but it is, IMHO of course, a lie to tell him that you haven't been baptized at all.

It depends on how you view single immersion Trinitarian non-Orthodox baptisms.

No, it depends on whether you want to tell your priest the whole story, or whether you want to edit it so that you can get what you want. Is that really a good way to begin?

If one doesn't believe that one is baptised, it wouldn't be lying. If one was baptised in the name of Jesus, would it be lying to say that one hasn't been baptised? Huh

If I believe that I look exactly like Angelina Jolie, (although perhaps just a little (ahem!) more mature), is it lying to describe myself that way?

Isn't full disclosure important? What's wrong with telling the whole truth to your priest, before being received into the Orthodox Church? If nothing else, it will be good practice for confession.
How about saying, "Father, I was baptized in the Name of the Trinity as an infant in the ________ Church. (or whatever the details of one's particular situation)But I really feel like it wasn't a true baptism, so I don't believe that I was baptized at all, and I would like to be received into the Orthodox Church by baptism. Is that possible/allowed?"
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« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2011, 01:03:33 PM »

I apologize for my bad suggestion. I never looked at it that way before. Thanks for explaining it so well.

No problem.

Are you a catechumen or still new to the Orthodox faith?
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« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2011, 01:05:09 PM »

I apologize for my bad suggestion. I never looked at it that way before. Thanks for explaining it so well.

No problem.

Are you a catechumen or still new to the Orthodox faith?

I became Orthodox in August 2009.
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« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2011, 01:12:36 PM »

Honestly, I do want to be baptized into the Orthodox faith. It may sound weird, but I want that experience of putting Christ on and having my sins cleansed completely. Because I was a baby when I was baptized in the Lutheran church, I obviously have no recollection of it. I want to begin my new life in the Church with a fresh start in baptism.

Ask for it but don't be saddened if they say "no." You will be putting on Christ and mystically joining his Body either way.
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« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2011, 01:13:39 PM »

It's not weird. There are a number of us here who have wanted to be baptized in our conversions. Some have even chosen jurisdictions on the basis of where that desire could be actualized. I would recommend you express this desire to your Priest, but ultimately recognize that he is your spiritual authority and that it's not just up to you to decide this.

I would disagree with leaving it up to your priest if your desire is for baptism. He is not your authority yet if you are not yet in the church. You must decide with your conscience. The method of receiving converts is for the converts, not the Church.

This makes no sense.   A patient doesn't waltz into a hospital demanding Morphene when Asprin will cure his headache, and the hospital doesn't oblige the request even if it is made.  The Church decides the means of entry, period, and the priest, as an agent of the Bishop, is the agent of the Church.  If he, in consultation with the hierarch, decides on chrismation, or confession of faith, or baptism (there is no such animal as "re-baptism"), then that is the decision of the Church.  We're not anarchists when it comes to conversion/reception.
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« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2011, 01:24:10 PM »

Honestly, I do want to be baptized into the Orthodox faith. It may sound weird, but I want that experience of putting Christ on and having my sins cleansed completely. Because I was a baby when I was baptized in the Lutheran church, I obviously have no recollection of it. I want to begin my new life in the Church with a fresh start in baptism.

Have you already started attending a church?
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« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2011, 04:22:57 PM »

I was baptized as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church, then received a "believer's baptism" in the Southern Baptist Church at age 15, then I received my true and fulfilled triple immersion baptism, chrismation and communion in the Serbian Orthodox Church last year at age 28.

I was very hesitant to "get baptized a third time", but as I inquired and was a catechumen for some three years, by the time it came around I fully understood the Orthodox theology of baptism and knew it's what I needed. It was also a lesson of submission to the bishop.

Ultimately, one should listen to their bishop, but I also understand not wanting to violate one's conscience either way. Fortunately for me, my bishop baptizes all converts regardless. He even had a former Roman Catholic priest baptized upon entry. Talk about old-school.
So baptism is a consumer item; your parents "bought" you one as an infant; you became a teenager you reject it and buy your own; you become a husband, and you buy yourself a new religion. New religion every 13 years? What will you be at age 40, Mormon? They also sell baptisms.. Buy your baptisms, triple immersion, one immersion, no immersion, sprinkling, washing, trinitarian, unitarian, nondenomenational, Orthodox, Catholic, Moron, Jehova's Witnesses...
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« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2011, 04:24:06 PM »

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« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2011, 04:45:33 PM »

I haven't even begun the true conversion process yet. I'm going to the Liturgy for my first time on Sunday. The priest told me to talk to him afterwards, to become a member of the community, and he will also give me a calender.

When does one officially become a catechumen?

I was very hesitant to "get baptized a third time", but as I inquired and was a catechumen for some three years, by the time it came around I fully understood the Orthodox theology of baptism and knew it's what I needed. It was also a lesson of submission to the bishop.

Three years!? I certainly hope it doesn't take me three years to join the Church  Shocked
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« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2011, 04:51:09 PM »

The priest will determine everything. The priest at my church had wanted to chrismate me before Pascha (would have been about a 3 month catechumenate), but as we (me and Mr. Ismi) go further, I think we'll be in it for the long haul. Some people on this board had to go through a 1-year+ conversion process.

I was miserable for a week upon hearing that I couldn't just become Orthodox after a month or so, but I am starting to understand why! I almost feel like I am not spiritually ready yet, so I am glad that my priest had the good judgment to put the brakes on my zealousness like he did.
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« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2011, 04:51:36 PM »

I haven't even begun the true conversion process yet. I'm going to the Liturgy for my first time on Sunday. The priest told me to talk to him afterwards, to become a member of the community, and he will also give me a calender.

When does one officially become a catechumen?

Three years!? I certainly hope it doesn't take me three years to join the Church  Shocked

Three years was the norm in the early Church, but you'll probably have a shorter time. Maybe. Possibly.  Grin  I spent about a year as an inquirer, but my actual catechumenate only lasted 6 months. Generally I think the catechumenate starts when you say to your priest "I'd like to join" and he says "ok". Wink  Though if he assigns you a catechist and/or gives you a specific date to be baptized/chrismated, that's probably good signs as well.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 04:52:12 PM by Asteriktos » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2011, 04:57:44 PM »

I was baptized as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church, then received a "believer's baptism" in the Southern Baptist Church at age 15, then I received my true and fulfilled triple immersion baptism, chrismation and communion in the Serbian Orthodox Church last year at age 28.

I was very hesitant to "get baptized a third time", but as I inquired and was a catechumen for some three years, by the time it came around I fully understood the Orthodox theology of baptism and knew it's what I needed. It was also a lesson of submission to the bishop.

Ultimately, one should listen to their bishop, but I also understand not wanting to violate one's conscience either way. Fortunately for me, my bishop baptizes all converts regardless. He even had a former Roman Catholic priest baptized upon entry. Talk about old-school.
So baptism is a consumer item; your parents "bought" you one as an infant; you became a teenager you reject it and buy your own; you become a husband, and you buy yourself a new religion. New religion every 13 years? What will you be at age 40, Mormon? They also sell baptisms.. Buy your baptisms, triple immersion, one immersion, no immersion, sprinkling, washing, trinitarian, unitarian, nondenomenational, Orthodox, Catholic, Moron, Jehova's Witnesses...

That's not how it is with the Orthodox. Low Reform Protestants regularly repeat baptisms because they think it is simply an exercise of faith and can be beneficial if repeated with the right intent. Otherwise Baptism is understood as actually conveying grace. The Orthodox usually do not believe that heterodox "baptisms" are actually graced, hence they are not legitimate Baptisms. So a person must  receive the grace of an Orthodox Baptism. Beyond that there is no repetition. So it's definitely not an issue of it being a commodity.
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« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2011, 05:00:31 PM »

When does one officially become a catechumen?

One is often considered a catechumen before this point, but the real tangible, eccelsiastical, and mystical point at which one becomes a catechumen is when the Priest reads the prayer of initiation to catechesis over you (note: this never happened to me before my baptism in the GOAA, nor did I do a lifetime confession).

Three years!? I certainly hope it doesn't take me three years to join the Church  Shocked

Nowadays that generally only happens when there are bumps in the road and the process is not straightforward. Otherwise I have not heard of catechesis lasting longer than a year (in modernity).
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« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2011, 06:14:35 PM »

So baptism is a consumer item; your parents "bought" you one as an infant; you became a teenager you reject it and buy your own; you become a husband, and you buy yourself a new religion. New religion every 13 years? What will you be at age 40, Mormon? They also sell baptisms.. Buy your baptisms, triple immersion, one immersion, no immersion, sprinkling, washing, trinitarian, unitarian, nondenomenational, Orthodox, Catholic, Moron, Jehova's Witnesses...

I probably shouldn't even dignify this post with a response, but I want to respond to you and ask that you never address me again for any reason. Thank you.
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« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2011, 06:18:20 PM »

So baptism is a consumer item; your parents "bought" you one as an infant; you became a teenager you reject it and buy your own; you become a husband, and you buy yourself a new religion. New religion every 13 years? What will you be at age 40, Mormon? They also sell baptisms.. Buy your baptisms, triple immersion, one immersion, no immersion, sprinkling, washing, trinitarian, unitarian, nondenomenational, Orthodox, Catholic, Moron, Jehova's Witnesses...

I probably shouldn't even dignify this post with a response, but I want to respond to you and ask that you never address me again for any reason. Thank you.

I completely missed that post. I'm a little tempted to open up a can of whoop.....uh...you know Tongue
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"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
— St. John Chrysostom
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