Topic: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?

[JamesR]

Worst: Arius or Thomas Aquinas, do I even need to mention why?

Yeah

I'm curious as well.

He tried to reduce God into a lousy deistic entity that could be entirely interpreted by the mere human mind even though God is much bigger than that and there are many things about him we will never be able to understand with our minds. Thomas Aquinas did not worship God but worshipped a philosophical idol of God inside of his mind.

Quite the judgmental young man we are.  Thomas Aquinas quit writing his treatise after seeing the uncreated light.

Whether or not he saw the uncreated light is unconfirmed. However, I guess I was being too judgmental.

[KBN1]

Worst: Arius or Thomas Aquinas, do I even need to mention why?

Yeah

I'm curious as well.

He tried to reduce God into a lousy deistic entity that could be entirely interpreted by the mere human mind even though God is much bigger than that and there are many things about him we will never be able to understand with our minds. Thomas Aquinas did not worship God but worshipped a philosophical idol of God inside of his mind.

Have you read his Summa Theologica?  It is an honest question so please don't read anything into it.  I haven't tackled the Summa.  Maybe I will.

A side question to those of you who know a bit about Thomas Aquinas:  Where should a guy start who isn't ready to take on 3000+ pages?

[JamesR]

Have you read his Summa Theologica?  It is an honest question so please don't read anything into it.  I haven't tackled the Summa.  Maybe I will.

Yes and no. I read one of those selected-writings from the Summa Theologica books. I think penguin was the publisher. It was back when I was a Protestant going through this apologetics craze. I guess I was being too judgmental, but, it seems like from what I read, Thomas Aquinas was more of a philosopher than an actual theologian.

[theo philosopher]

Worst: Arius or Thomas Aquinas, do I even need to mention why?

Yeah

I'm curious as well.

He tried to reduce God into a lousy deistic entity that could be entirely interpreted by the mere human mind even though God is much bigger than that and there are many things about him we will never be able to understand with our minds. Thomas Aquinas did not worship God but worshipped a philosophical idol of God inside of his mind.

Have you read his Summa Theologica?  It is an honest question so please don't read anything into it.  I haven't tackled the Summa.  Maybe I will.

A side question to those of you who know a bit about Thomas Aquinas:  Where should a guy start who isn't ready to take on 3000+ pages?

Kreeft's "Summa of the Summa," or Kreeft's "An Even Shorter Summa of the Summa."

[KBN1]

Worst: Arius or Thomas Aquinas, do I even need to mention why?

Yeah

I'm curious as well.

He tried to reduce God into a lousy deistic entity that could be entirely interpreted by the mere human mind even though God is much bigger than that and there are many things about him we will never be able to understand with our minds. Thomas Aquinas did not worship God but worshipped a philosophical idol of God inside of his mind.

Have you read his Summa Theologica?  It is an honest question so please don't read anything into it.  I haven't tackled the Summa.  Maybe I will.

A side question to those of you who know a bit about Thomas Aquinas:  Where should a guy start who isn't ready to take on 3000+ pages?

Kreeft's "Summa of the Summa," or Kreeft's "An Even Shorter Summa of the Summa."

Thank you.  539 pages seems managable.

[Shiny]

Vladimir Lossky

[Shiny]

Quick question how Orthodox is Summa Theologica, even though its written by a Roman Catholic?

[Papist]

Worst: Arius or Thomas Aquinas, do I even need to mention why?

Yeah

I'm curious as well.

He tried to reduce God into a lousy deistic entity that could be entirely interpreted by the mere human mind even though God is much bigger than that and there are many things about him we will never be able to understand with our minds. Thomas Aquinas did not worship God but worshipped a philosophical idol of God inside of his mind.

"For by it's immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa conta gentiles, book 1, chapter 14

[Melodist]

If the person you believe is the great theologian is not on the list. Just post their name.

This is how we got our feast day for the three hierarchs.

[JamesRottnek]

Once again, I say St. Isaac of Nineveh.

[Kerdy]

I don't know enough to provide a clear answer, but does there have to be a greatest?  Couldn't it just be most personally influential?  So far, for me, its Fr. Alexander Schmemman (spelling?).

Proper title added.

[Severian]

Most overrated infallible theologian: St. Athanasius

It's almost true, though. Has this great Saint ever taught something that was rejected by the Church?

[Asteriktos]

Most overrated infallible theologian: St. Athanasius

It's almost true, though. Has this great Saint ever taught something that was rejected by the Church?

He rejected Esther from his biblical canon

[Severian]

Most overrated infallible theologian: St. Athanasius

It's almost true, though. Has this great Saint ever taught something that was rejected by the Church?

He rejected Esther from his biblical canon

That's true. Did he ever teach any doctrinal errors, however?

[Alpo]

Most overrated infallible theologian: St. Athanasius

It's almost true, though. Has this great Saint ever taught something that was rejected by the Church?

He rejected Esther from his biblical canon

That's true. Did he ever teach any theological errors, however?

Erring on biblical canon is not a theological error? 

[Severian]

Most overrated infallible theologian: St. Athanasius

It's almost true, though. Has this great Saint ever taught something that was rejected by the Church?

He rejected Esther from his biblical canon

That's true. Did he ever teach any theological errors, however?

Erring on biblical canon is not a theological error? 

Perhaps doctrinal would have been a better word to use. In any case, there are variances in Biblical canons even within the OO Communions and (AFAIK) EO Communions. The book of Enoch is canonical in the Ethiopian Church, but not in the Coptic Church. The Coptic canon is closer to that of RC's, whereas the Armenian canon is more like the Byzantine one.

[minasoliman]

Most overrated infallible theologian: St. Athanasius

It's almost true, though. Has this great Saint ever taught something that was rejected by the Church?

He rejected Esther from his biblical canon

That's true. Did he ever teach any theological errors, however?

Erring on biblical canon is not a theological error? 

No, that's not a theological error.

[Asteriktos]

I agree that specific scriptural canons are theologoumena when considered across the entirety of Christianity (and even within Orthodoxies), albeit a very important one that can't be ignored. But I wasn't asked to give a theological or doctrinal or dogmatic or [insert another term] mistake. The question was: "Has this great Saint ever taught something that was rejected by the Church?"  And the answer is yes, his scriptural canon was rejected by all Christian churches that I know of. 

[Severian]

^Haha, good point! Did he ever teach a doctrinal, dogmatic, or theological error, however?

[Asteriktos]

^Haha, good point! Did he ever teach a doctrinal, dogmatic, or theological error, however.

It's been a while since I read most of his writings (on CCEL), but I don't recall reading/hearing about any such error

[Shiny]

How reliable is stuff like CCEL?

[Asteriktos]

How reliable is stuff like CCEL?

Well, it's a Protestant site with Protestant source material (notes, introductions, etc.), but it's better than nothing. The past few years I've used newadvent's Church Fathers section just because it's easier to navigate and link to, but they don't have nearly as many notes or indexes. Unless you mean the translations, then I'm not sure. I have run into things that I wasn't sure about, like the phrase "semi-orthodox" in an oration of St. Gregory the Theologian.

[Shiny]

I ask that question because I wonder if Protestant theology would somehow distort the original text or the translation philosophy is to be more in line with Protestantism.

Nontheless I too think it's a very good site with alot of information.

[minasoliman]

I agree that specific scriptural canons are theologoumena when considered across the entirety of Christianity (and even within Orthodoxies), albeit a very important one that can't be ignored. But I wasn't asked to give a theological or doctrinal or dogmatic or [insert another term] mistake. The question was: "Has this great Saint ever taught something that was rejected by the Church?"  And the answer is yes, his scriptural canon was rejected by all Christian churches that I know of. 

Actually if anything, Esther wasn't rejected completely, but was considered pious reading, recommended by the Fathers for those "wishing to be instructed in the word of godliness".

[Shiny]

If I can add nothing to this discussion of St. Athansius' it would be I've had a few atheists confess that his On the Incarnation made them rethink about Christianity. It also made an impression on me when I was inquring into Orthodoxy and made me fall in love with the saint.

[Severian]

In which letter was it that he set forth the Biblical canon (excluding Esther)?

EDIT: Thank you Asteriktos.

[Asteriktos]

Letter 39 (from 367)

[RobS]

I sometimes wonder if St. John of Damascus was ever a true theologian.

[LivenotoneviL]

I think Saint Cyril of Alexandria is up there, from reading his commentary on the Gospel of John.

[Tzimis]

St. Maximos the confessor. He confessed. Read him if you want to gaze into the mysteries of god.

[Dominika]

I sometimes wonder if St. John of Damascus was ever a true theologian.

Why? 
He's my beloved (theologian) one.

[Iconodule]

I sometimes wonder if St. John of Damascus was ever a true theologian.

Why? 
He's my beloved (theologian) one.

Yeah, pretty odd thing to wonder about the author of the Paschal Canon.

[Jetavan]

Origenes Adamantius

[biro]

St. John The.

[LivenotoneviL]

St. John The.

+1

No theological work has been as inspiring to the Saints as this one.

[Tzimis]

Greeks couldn't decide so they made a feast day for the three Hierarchs. January 30.

[biro]

Very good.

[RaphaCam]

WPM and pasadi97

[Asteriktos]

WPM and pasadi97

"And the Lord said unto pasadi97, 'See, I have made thee a god to oc.net: and WPM thy brother shall be thy prophet." (Ex. 7:1)

[hecma925]

WPM and pasadi97

"And the Lord said unto pasadi97, 'See, I have made thee a god to oc.net: and WPM thy brother shall be thy prophet." (Ex. 7:1)

And GOD saw that the wickedness of OCnet was great in the local area, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

(OC Gen. 6:5)

[RobS]

I sometimes wonder if St. John of Damascus was ever a true theologian.

Why? 
He's my beloved (theologian) one.

Actually I've been thinking a lot about what makes a theologian...well a theologian? The more I read, the less I'm clear on that. Even the Church has given the title to only 3 saints.

St. John is my patron saint, after all, but even in his Fount...it's much more summary than it is theology. Or maybe my understanding of theology is too narrow. I dunno, I'm not dogmatic about any of my opinions...

[Dominika]

I sometimes wonder if St. John of Damascus was ever a true theologian.

Why? 
He's my beloved (theologian) one.

Actually I've been thinking a lot about what makes a theologian...well a theologian? The more I read, the less I'm clear on that. Even the Church has given the title to only 3 saints.

St. John is my patron saint, after all, but even in his Fount...it's much more summary than it is theology. Or maybe my understanding of theology is too narrow. I dunno, I'm not dogmatic about any of my opinions...

Quite funny, but on one of Coptic sites I've seen "theologian" being attributed to st. John Damascene.
Anyway, the Fountain of Knowledge is quite specific thing: the first part just gives and describes the tools for deduction, the second part is rejection of wrong deductions and the third part is explaing right deduction

Every Christian should be a theologian, see (that's an English translation from Arabic) this text written by metropolitan Paul of Aleppo: Who is the theologian?

[Ainnir]

Every Christian should be a theologian, see (that's an English translation from Arabic) this text written by metropolitan Paul of Aleppo: Who is the theologian?

Great article!

[WPM]

Thomas Aquinas helpful for understanding Catholics

[Alpha60]

There are three persons formally venerated Theologians within the EO church, from what I understand, two of whom are also venerated in the OO communion: St. John the Apostle, and St. Gregory Nazianzus.   I see no reason for the Oriental church to not venerate St. Symeon the New.  These individuals are specifically venerated as theologians due to having left a written record detailing direct personal contact with God, but obviously these three people are not by any means the only theologians; I believe fervently in the adage “he who prays is a theologian”, and to the extent I am not a theologian, for example, it is due to sloth and irresponsibility in my personal prayer life.  All of the saints are in this respect theologians.

Now if we use a Western definition and describe a theologian as a scholar of the Christian religion, I can easily list my favorite “scholars of theology” as I prefer to call them in that context, if they are Orthodox, and then for comparative purposes, my favorite “scholars of religion” among the heterodox.  The scholars of theology could also be called church fathers, and some of the scholars of religion can also be called heresiarchs.   There are also a few edge cases, where I believe we wrongly anathematized someone.

My favorite Orthodox scholars of religion/Church Fathers:

1. St. Athanasius
2. St. Irenaeus of Lyons and St. (Psuedo) Dionysius the Aeropagite
3. St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Cyril of Alexandria and St. John Chrysostom (tie)
4. St. Epiphanius of Salamis and St. Maximos the Confessor (tie)
5. St. Jacob of Sarugh and St. Ephrem the Syrian (tie)
6. St. Basil the Great and Gregory the Theologian (tie)
7. St. Severus and St. Hippolytus (tie)
8. St. Gregory of Nyssa and John of Damascus (tie)
9. St. Ambrose of Milan and St. Gregory Diologos (tie)
10. St. Ignatius Brianchaninov and St. Cyril of Jerusalem (tie)
11. Sts. Macarius and Nicodemus of Athos
12. St. Nikitas Stithatos, St. Gregory of Palamas and St. Symeon the New (tie)
13. St. Gregorios bar Hebraeus
14. Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky
15. St. Dionysius bar Salibi

Honorable Mentions: St. Augustine, St. Justin Martyr, St. Peter Fullo, St. John of Kronstadt, St. Photius the Great, St. Mark of Ephesus, St. Pope Cyril IV

Edge cases:
Origen and Theodore of Mopsuestia
Jan Hus**

My favorite philosophers and scholars of religion (not canonical members of the Orthodox Church)

1. Dom Gregory Dix
2. Fr. Percy Dearmer
3. John Wesley*
4. John Hunter
5. Cardinal Ximenes and Carlos Borromeos (tie)
6. Thomas Aquinas
7. Soren Kierkegaard
8. Plato
9.  Maimonides
10.  Martin Luther
11.  Archbishop Cranmer
12. Eusebius of Caesarea
13.  John Calvin
14. Valentinian
15.  Zoroaster


Honorble mentions: Laozi, George Fox,  Certain assorted Sufi mystics connected with the Alevi, Bektasi and Mevlevi orders

* Actually he may have been a member; this depends on how one interprets his irregular ordination to the episcopate by Bishop Erasmus of Arcadia in 1763).
** I recall reading the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia is glorifying him; if so, splendid news

Finally, among living Orthodox scholars of theology:

1. Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
2. Fr. Lazarus el-Antony and Fr. John Behr (tie)
3. Fr. Peter Farrington and Archpriest Andrew S. Damick (tie)

And among living non-Orthodox scholars:

1. Pope Benedict XVI
2. Fr. Peter Owen Jones
3. Archbishop Rowan Williams (retired)