Author Topic: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?  (Read 3466 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,384
  • St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2012, 05:21:15 PM »
Worst: Arius or Thomas Aquinas, do I even need to mention why?

Yeah

I'm curious as well.

He tried to reduce God into a lousy deistic entity that could be entirely interpreted by the mere human mind even though God is much bigger than that and there are many things about him we will never be able to understand with our minds. Thomas Aquinas did not worship God but worshipped a philosophical idol of God inside of his mind.

Quite the judgmental young man we are.  Thomas Aquinas quit writing his treatise after seeing the uncreated light.

Whether or not he saw the uncreated light is unconfirmed. However, I guess I was being too judgmental.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline KBN1

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 888
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2012, 05:26:46 PM »
Worst: Arius or Thomas Aquinas, do I even need to mention why?

Yeah

I'm curious as well.

He tried to reduce God into a lousy deistic entity that could be entirely interpreted by the mere human mind even though God is much bigger than that and there are many things about him we will never be able to understand with our minds. Thomas Aquinas did not worship God but worshipped a philosophical idol of God inside of his mind.

Have you read his Summa Theologica?  It is an honest question so please don't read anything into it.  I haven't tackled the Summa.  Maybe I will.

A side question to those of you who know a bit about Thomas Aquinas:  Where should a guy start who isn't ready to take on 3000+ pages?

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,384
  • St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2012, 05:29:30 PM »
Have you read his Summa Theologica?  It is an honest question so please don't read anything into it.  I haven't tackled the Summa.  Maybe I will.

Yes and no. I read one of those selected-writings from the Summa Theologica books. I think penguin was the publisher. It was back when I was a Protestant going through this apologetics craze. I guess I was being too judgmental, but, it seems like from what I read, Thomas Aquinas was more of a philosopher than an actual theologian.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline theo philosopher

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 315
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2012, 02:40:58 AM »
Worst: Arius or Thomas Aquinas, do I even need to mention why?

Yeah

I'm curious as well.

He tried to reduce God into a lousy deistic entity that could be entirely interpreted by the mere human mind even though God is much bigger than that and there are many things about him we will never be able to understand with our minds. Thomas Aquinas did not worship God but worshipped a philosophical idol of God inside of his mind.

Have you read his Summa Theologica?  It is an honest question so please don't read anything into it.  I haven't tackled the Summa.  Maybe I will.

A side question to those of you who know a bit about Thomas Aquinas:  Where should a guy start who isn't ready to take on 3000+ pages?

Kreeft's "Summa of the Summa," or Kreeft's "An Even Shorter Summa of the Summa."
“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus

Offline KBN1

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 888
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2012, 10:38:14 PM »
Worst: Arius or Thomas Aquinas, do I even need to mention why?

Yeah

I'm curious as well.

He tried to reduce God into a lousy deistic entity that could be entirely interpreted by the mere human mind even though God is much bigger than that and there are many things about him we will never be able to understand with our minds. Thomas Aquinas did not worship God but worshipped a philosophical idol of God inside of his mind.

Have you read his Summa Theologica?  It is an honest question so please don't read anything into it.  I haven't tackled the Summa.  Maybe I will.

A side question to those of you who know a bit about Thomas Aquinas:  Where should a guy start who isn't ready to take on 3000+ pages?

Kreeft's "Summa of the Summa," or Kreeft's "An Even Shorter Summa of the Summa."

Thank you.  539 pages seems managable.

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2012, 01:46:43 AM »
Vladimir Lossky
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2012, 01:54:07 AM »
Quick question how Orthodox is Summa Theologica, even though its written by a Roman Catholic?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,746
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2012, 12:32:40 PM »
Worst: Arius or Thomas Aquinas, do I even need to mention why?

Yeah

I'm curious as well.


He tried to reduce God into a lousy deistic entity that could be entirely interpreted by the mere human mind even though God is much bigger than that and there are many things about him we will never be able to understand with our minds. Thomas Aquinas did not worship God but worshipped a philosophical idol of God inside of his mind.
"For by it's immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa conta gentiles, book 1, chapter 14
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,523
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2012, 02:25:30 PM »
If the person you believe is the great theologian is not on the list. Just post their name. :)

This is how we got our feast day for the three hierarchs.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2012, 03:10:57 PM »
Once again, I say St. Isaac of Nineveh.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,802
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2012, 03:16:06 PM »
I don't know enough to provide a clear answer, but does there have to be a greatest?  Couldn't it just be most personally influential?  So far, for me, its Fr. Alexander Schmemman (spelling?).

Proper title added.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 03:25:33 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline Severian

  • Aspiring Allopathic Ankle Orthodontist
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,154
  • Saint Severus of Antioch - the Eloquent Mouth
    • St. Jacob Baradeus' Orthodox Christian Fellowship
  • Faith: Orthodox Christianity
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodoxy
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2012, 01:16:25 PM »

Most overrated infallible theologian: St. Athanasius

;)
It's almost true, though. Has this great Saint ever taught something that was rejected by the Church?
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

May the 21 new martyrs pray for us all.

Please, remember me in your prayers

Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.

Offline Justin Kissel

  • •|•|•
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 31,544
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2012, 01:20:03 PM »

Most overrated infallible theologian: St. Athanasius

;)
It's almost true, though. Has this great Saint ever taught something that was rejected by the Church?

He rejected Esther from his biblical canon ;)
We all have an El Guapo to face. Be brave, and fight like lions!

Form a 'brute squad' then!

Offline Severian

  • Aspiring Allopathic Ankle Orthodontist
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,154
  • Saint Severus of Antioch - the Eloquent Mouth
    • St. Jacob Baradeus' Orthodox Christian Fellowship
  • Faith: Orthodox Christianity
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodoxy
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2012, 01:23:58 PM »

Most overrated infallible theologian: St. Athanasius

;)
It's almost true, though. Has this great Saint ever taught something that was rejected by the Church?

He rejected Esther from his biblical canon ;)
That's true. Did he ever teach any doctrinal errors, however?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 01:34:02 PM by Severian »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

May the 21 new martyrs pray for us all.

Please, remember me in your prayers

Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,318
  • My borcht recipe is better than your borcht recipe
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2012, 01:27:44 PM »

Most overrated infallible theologian: St. Athanasius

;)
It's almost true, though. Has this great Saint ever taught something that was rejected by the Church?

He rejected Esther from his biblical canon ;)
That's true. Did he ever teach any theological errors, however?

Erring on biblical canon is not a theological error?  ???

Offline Severian

  • Aspiring Allopathic Ankle Orthodontist
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,154
  • Saint Severus of Antioch - the Eloquent Mouth
    • St. Jacob Baradeus' Orthodox Christian Fellowship
  • Faith: Orthodox Christianity
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodoxy
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2012, 01:37:02 PM »

Most overrated infallible theologian: St. Athanasius

;)
It's almost true, though. Has this great Saint ever taught something that was rejected by the Church?

He rejected Esther from his biblical canon ;)
That's true. Did he ever teach any theological errors, however?

Erring on biblical canon is not a theological error?  ???
Perhaps doctrinal would have been a better word to use. In any case, there are variances in Biblical canons even within the OO Communions and (AFAIK) EO Communions. The book of Enoch is canonical in the Ethiopian Church, but not in the Coptic Church. The Coptic canon is closer to that of RC's, whereas the Armenian canon is more like the Byzantine one.
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

May the 21 new martyrs pray for us all.

Please, remember me in your prayers

Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,471
  • Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2012, 10:21:14 PM »

Most overrated infallible theologian: St. Athanasius

;)
It's almost true, though. Has this great Saint ever taught something that was rejected by the Church?

He rejected Esther from his biblical canon ;)
That's true. Did he ever teach any theological errors, however?

Erring on biblical canon is not a theological error?  ???
No, that's not a theological error.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Justin Kissel

  • •|•|•
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 31,544
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2012, 10:26:20 PM »
I agree that specific scriptural canons are theologoumena when considered across the entirety of Christianity (and even within Orthodoxies), albeit a very important one that can't be ignored. But I wasn't asked to give a theological or doctrinal or dogmatic or [insert another term] mistake. The question was: "Has this great Saint ever taught something that was rejected by the Church?"  And the answer is yes, his scriptural canon was rejected by all Christian churches that I know of.  :angel:
We all have an El Guapo to face. Be brave, and fight like lions!

Form a 'brute squad' then!

Offline Severian

  • Aspiring Allopathic Ankle Orthodontist
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,154
  • Saint Severus of Antioch - the Eloquent Mouth
    • St. Jacob Baradeus' Orthodox Christian Fellowship
  • Faith: Orthodox Christianity
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodoxy
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2012, 10:29:48 PM »
^Haha, good point! Did he ever teach a doctrinal, dogmatic, or theological error, however?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 10:49:49 PM by Severian »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

May the 21 new martyrs pray for us all.

Please, remember me in your prayers

Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.

Offline Justin Kissel

  • •|•|•
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 31,544
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2012, 10:33:43 PM »
^Haha, good point! Did he ever teach a doctrinal, dogmatic, or theological error, however.

It's been a while since I read most of his writings (on CCEL), but I don't recall reading/hearing about any such error :)
We all have an El Guapo to face. Be brave, and fight like lions!

Form a 'brute squad' then!

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2012, 10:34:33 PM »
How reliable is stuff like CCEL?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Justin Kissel

  • •|•|•
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 31,544
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2012, 10:37:01 PM »
How reliable is stuff like CCEL?

Well, it's a Protestant site with Protestant source material (notes, introductions, etc.), but it's better than nothing. The past few years I've used newadvent's Church Fathers section just because it's easier to navigate and link to, but they don't have nearly as many notes or indexes. Unless you mean the translations, then I'm not sure. I have run into things that I wasn't sure about, like the phrase "semi-orthodox" in an oration of St. Gregory the Theologian.
We all have an El Guapo to face. Be brave, and fight like lions!

Form a 'brute squad' then!

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2012, 10:44:36 PM »
I ask that question because I wonder if Protestant theology would somehow distort the original text or the translation philosophy is to be more in line with Protestantism.

Nontheless I too think it's a very good site with alot of information.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,471
  • Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2012, 10:50:19 PM »
I agree that specific scriptural canons are theologoumena when considered across the entirety of Christianity (and even within Orthodoxies), albeit a very important one that can't be ignored. But I wasn't asked to give a theological or doctrinal or dogmatic or [insert another term] mistake. The question was: "Has this great Saint ever taught something that was rejected by the Church?"  And the answer is yes, his scriptural canon was rejected by all Christian churches that I know of.  :angel:
Actually if anything, Esther wasn't rejected completely, but was considered pious reading, recommended by the Fathers for those "wishing to be instructed in the word of godliness".
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2012, 11:01:09 PM »
If I can add nothing to this discussion of St. Athansius' it would be I've had a few atheists confess that his On the Incarnation made them rethink about Christianity. It also made an impression on me when I was inquring into Orthodoxy and made me fall in love with the saint.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Severian

  • Aspiring Allopathic Ankle Orthodontist
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,154
  • Saint Severus of Antioch - the Eloquent Mouth
    • St. Jacob Baradeus' Orthodox Christian Fellowship
  • Faith: Orthodox Christianity
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodoxy
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2012, 11:11:24 PM »
In which letter was it that he set forth the Biblical canon (excluding Esther)?

EDIT: Thank you Asteriktos.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 11:21:28 PM by Severian »
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ

May the 21 new martyrs pray for us all.

Please, remember me in your prayers

Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.

Offline Justin Kissel

  • •|•|•
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 31,544
Re: Greatest Theologian in your opinion?
« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2012, 11:18:11 PM »
Letter 39 (from 367)
We all have an El Guapo to face. Be brave, and fight like lions!

Form a 'brute squad' then!