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Author Topic: Do you believe that Jesus ate Kosher?  (Read 5633 times) Average Rating: 0
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yeshuaisiam
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« on: May 08, 2011, 10:58:15 PM »

I've done much research into Messianic Jews, and one thing my family practices now is to eat Kosher.  Of course, this is not commonly practiced by Eastern Orthodox Christians.

I'm needing help to personally refute articles like the one below.
http://www.lightofmashiach.org/kosher.html

These refutations help me to become "more Orthodox" and to help perhaps "unlearn" some things I have come across.

Such as "What did Jews consider food".
or
Are there any examples of very early church fathers eating foods that were not Kosher?

Thanks & God Bless

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« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 03:07:57 PM by Fr. George » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2011, 11:15:03 PM »

Acts 15:7-30 (New King James Version)

And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

       ‘ After this I will return
      And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
      I will rebuild its ruins,
      And I will set it up;
      So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
      Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
      Says the LORD who does all these things.’

“Known to God from eternity are all His works. Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
  
Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.
They wrote this, letter by them:

   The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

   To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

   Greetings.

Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

    Farewell.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 11:18:29 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2011, 11:24:13 PM »

And yes, I believe Jesus did eat Kosher.
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2011, 09:56:16 AM »

And yes, I believe Jesus did eat Kosher.

The quote from the scriptures really didn't answer the question.  The last part in particular didn't include all sins.
The link I provided is dealing with the issue specifically and St. Paul's dream.
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2011, 10:04:47 AM »

The quote from the scriptures really didn't answer the question.  The last part in particular didn't include all sins.
The link I provided is dealing with the issue specifically and St. Paul's dream.

*Peter's
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2011, 10:11:38 AM »

The thing is this.

Noah laws applied to all normal people. Then Jews become people of God through circumcision and they obtained Old Law. They did not go 50%Noah law, 50% Moses Law or 70-30 or other combination. They went to 100 Old Law or Moses Law.

When Word of God came through baptism men become children of God. And they have obtained the NEW Law. Noah Law is not salvific neither Moses Law, thst is most people go to Hell even if respecting these laws. This is from wikipedia Sheol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

"Sheol (pronounced "Sheh-ol"), in Hebrew שְׁאוֹל (She'ol), is the "grave", or "pit" or "abyss".[1][2]

In Judaism She'ol[3] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish Scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go regardless of the moral choices made in life and where they are "removed from the light of God" (see the Book of Job).
"

So when people went to new law, as children of God you are supposed to follow 100% NEW LAW. Moses may have followed Noahide Law before he obtained Moses Law but afterward he went 100% with Moses Law.
After New Law, that is salvific, Christians follow 100% New Law. Why follow a Not salvific Law? TO get a change to go to Hell?

sad story is that Messianic Jews while are concerned with Kosher are not concerned with food for eternal life:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35988.0.html
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 10:18:18 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2011, 10:31:48 AM »

And yes, I believe Jesus did eat Kosher.

The quote from the scriptures really didn't answer the question.  The last part in particular didn't include all sins.
But it references the Law, and makes reference to what dietary restrictions gentiles are to follow.

And how they are less than what Jews had to follow.
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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2011, 10:57:34 AM »

!המשיח קם
I've done much research into Messianic Jews, and one thing my family practices now is to eat Kosher.  Of course, this is not commonly practiced by Eastern Orthodox Christians.

I'm needing help to personally refute articles like the one below.
http://www.lightofmashiach.org/kosher.html

These refutations help me to become "more Orthodox" and to help perhaps "unlearn" some things I have come across.

Such as "What did Jews consider food".
or
Are there any examples of very early church fathers eating foods that were not Kosher?

Thanks & God Bless
Unless you all are sons of Jacob, there's no reason for you to go Kosher.

As pointed out, all the gentile early Church Father ate non-kosher food.
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2011, 11:01:16 AM »

If you have become Children of God through baptism, there is no reason to eat Kosher that is for people of God aka under the children of God. Your team, your people at work are under your children, right?
JN 1:12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to

become God's children,

to those who believe in his name:

See Christians can call God Our Father, sons of Jacob not baptised can call God Master. There is a book that say not receiving Jesus is a sin, and people may not be able to be righteous after Jesus comming without accepting Jesus, that is Word of God. Not accepting Jesus even with eating Kosher might be a sin.


In Heaven, the House of God go the Children of God. This is why King David and Adam and Abraham had to be baptised, to become children of God before entering Heaven.

Entire story here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35988.0.html

This is Jeremiah saying A NEW COVENANT, that probably is 100% NEW, that probably is without KOSHER:
JER 31:31 Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
JER 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh.
JER 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:
JER 31:34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahweh; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.


The thing is this.

Noah laws applied to all normal people. Then Jews become people of God through circumcision and they obtained Old Law. They did not go 50%Noah law, 50% Moses Law or 70-30 or other combination. They went to 100 Old Law or Moses Law.

When Word of God came through baptism men become children of God. And they have obtained the NEW Law. Noah Law is not salvific neither Moses Law, thst is most people go to Hell even if respecting these laws. This is from wikipedia Sheol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

"Sheol (pronounced "Sheh-ol"), in Hebrew שְׁאוֹל (She'ol), is the "grave", or "pit" or "abyss".[1][2]

In Judaism She'ol[3] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish Scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go regardless of the moral choices made in life and where they are "removed from the light of God" (see the Book of Job).
"

So when people went to new law, as children of God you are supposed to follow 100% NEW LAW. Moses may have followed Noahide Law before he obtained Moses Law but afterward he went 100% with Moses Law.
After New Law, that is salvific, Christians follow 100% New Law. Why follow a Not salvific Law? TO get a change to go to Hell?

sad story is that Messianic Jews while are concerned with Kosher are not concerned with food for eternal life:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35988.0.html
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 11:25:45 AM by pasadi97 » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2011, 11:39:18 AM »

Their insistence on using "hebrew/aramaic" words and phrases, not saying the word "God", and the entire fetishized anachronism, though done with the best of intentions, just seems like...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wngLcvB-8uM
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 11:39:28 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2011, 01:39:51 PM »

Biblical or rabbinical kosher?
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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2011, 02:28:19 PM »

Just an observation, the kosher laws were delivered on Mt Sinai when God set the Jews apart for Himself, and the apostles, under divine inspiration, abolished them as a requirement when the Church started receiving the gentiles. It seems those laws in particular had to do with dividing the Jews from the gentiles, and as soon as Jews and gentiles were united together in Christ, the laws that had previously divided them were no longer effective because the division that they maintained was united in Christ. With the division between Jew and gentile gone, the laws that divided them were no longer necessary and became contrary to Christian unity.

Yes, I believe that as a Jew fulfilling the Law, Jesus did eat Kosher.
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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2011, 02:41:50 PM »

!המשיח קם
I've done much research into Messianic Jews, and one thing my family practices now is to eat Kosher.  Of course, this is not commonly practiced by Eastern Orthodox Christians.

I'm needing help to personally refute articles like the one below.
http://www.lightofmashiach.org/kosher.html

These refutations help me to become "more Orthodox" and to help perhaps "unlearn" some things I have come across.

Such as "What did Jews consider food".
or
Are there any examples of very early church fathers eating foods that were not Kosher?

Thanks & God Bless
Unless you all are sons of Jacob, there's no reason for you to go Kosher.

As pointed out, all the gentile early Church Father ate non-kosher food.

Does that mean that I should start eating Kosher, being a Jew who converted?

I sure hope not.  Been there.

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« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2011, 02:46:32 PM »

Just an observation, the kosher laws were delivered on Mt Sinai when God set the Jews apart for Himself, and the apostles, under divine inspiration, abolished them as a requirement when the Church started receiving the gentiles. It seems those laws in particular had to do with dividing the Jews from the gentiles, and as soon as Jews and gentiles were united together in Christ, the laws that had previously divided them were no longer effective because the division that they maintained was united in Christ. With the division between Jew and gentile gone, the laws that divided them were no longer necessary and became contrary to Christian unity.

Yes, I believe that as a Jew fulfilling the Law, Jesus did eat Kosher.

Yes, it's pretty unlikely he would prefer unclean foods and not have it recorded.  His admonitions against the form of Phariseeism dominant in his time were still part of a well known minority viewpoint. Eating bad food would have been well beyond the pale. 

"I'll have the Lobster please and ummmmmmmmmmmm..and a fresh glass of goat milk."

I think not
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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2011, 02:48:52 PM »


I actually know a few Christians who celebrate the Jewish holidays - Passover, etc....

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« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2011, 03:09:33 PM »

Jesus might have ate his meals with prostitutes, accessories to murder, and all sorts of other sinners, but ain't no way he didn't keep kosher!  Wink  Not saying that the question of the conduct of Christians as it relates to dietary rules doesn't have some validity, I'm just not totally sure how it fits into the overall message and life Jesus led, and the message the Apostles preached... then again, there are certainly dietary customs in the Church still...
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« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2011, 04:24:17 PM »

Just out of curiosity,

If our God and Savior Jesus Christ ate Kosher as a man here on Earth, and he is our example, wouldn't we want to follow that?

I suppose in sheer wonder if it's right to change this entire law over a dream of St. PETER.  I understand dreams can be inspired by God, but if God himself ate Kosher do we allow a dream to change this?
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« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2011, 04:38:34 PM »

In the BIBLE it is written that the dread was from GOD. Isn't that enough for you or are Acts not enough kosher to you?
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« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2011, 04:38:45 PM »

Just out of curiosity,

If our God and Savior Jesus Christ ate Kosher as a man here on Earth, and he is our example, wouldn't we want to follow that?

I suppose in sheer wonder if it's right to change this entire law over a dream of St. PETER.  I understand dreams can be inspired by God, but if God himself ate Kosher do we allow a dream to change this?

If our God and Savior Jesus Christ ate Kosher as a man here on Earth, and he is our example, wouldn't we want to follow that?

Nope..

I don't wear sandals or sack cloth either. Nor do I go to Synagogue or ritually wash my hands before eating. I also observe Sunday as my day of worship rather than Saturday..
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« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2011, 06:08:15 PM »

Yeshuaisiam,

If Jewish dietary practice is important to Christian life, why are we not lobbying the government to rebuild the Temple so we can immediately commence animal sacrifices?

Are we are bound by the old covenant or we are not? It's a big theological question that will answer your much smaller question re Jewish dietary law if you're able to answer it.
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« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2011, 06:24:31 PM »

I suppose in sheer wonder if it's right to change this entire law over a dream of St. PETER.  I understand dreams can be inspired by God, but if God himself ate Kosher do we allow a dream to change this?
The Council of Jerusalem was not Peter's dream.
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« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2011, 06:55:35 PM »

I suppose in sheer wonder if it's right to change this entire law over a dream of St. PETER.  I understand dreams can be inspired by God, but if God himself ate Kosher do we allow a dream to change this?
The Council of Jerusalem was not Peter's dream.

Yeah. The Church collectively decided to end the kosher rules.

And the dream was not really about eating kosher anyway. The dream was to get St Peter to stop judging the Gentiles.
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« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2011, 07:37:05 PM »

I suppose in sheer wonder if it's right to change this entire law over a dream of St. PETER.  I understand dreams can be inspired by God, but if God himself ate Kosher do we allow a dream to change this?
The Council of Jerusalem was not Peter's dream.

Yeah. The Church collectively decided to end the kosher rules.

And the dream was not really about eating kosher anyway. The dream was to get St Peter to stop judging the Gentiles.

I'm not sure how theologically correct this opinion is, but I'm of the view that, although the council of Jerusalem settled the manner definitively, Christ himself put an end to the kosher laws when he said "drink from this, all of you, this is my blood of the new covenant".

The old covenant was not given to those of us who are gentiles. Our relationship with God springs from Christ's shed blood, not the promises of Abraham and the Law of Moses.

While saying nothing of whether the old covenant continues in force for Jews, I would argue that gentile Christians are certainly not bound by its terms.
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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2011, 08:20:28 PM »

Jesus probably ate kosher, but as pointed out, by commanding us to eat his body and drink his blood that went right out the window.


I seem to recall a verse, and I forget it right now, so take this with a grain of salt, which says not to follow those who tell you what to eat.
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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2011, 09:46:05 PM »

I suppose in sheer wonder if it's right to change this entire law over a dream of St. PETER.  I understand dreams can be inspired by God, but if God himself ate Kosher do we allow a dream to change this?
The Council of Jerusalem was not Peter's dream.

Yeah. The Church collectively decided to end the kosher rules.

And the dream was not really about eating kosher anyway. The dream was to get St Peter to stop judging the Gentiles.

I'm not sure how theologically correct this opinion is, but I'm of the view that, although the council of Jerusalem settled the manner definitively, Christ himself put an end to the kosher laws when he said "drink from this, all of you, this is my blood of the new covenant".

The old covenant was not given to those of us who are gentiles. Our relationship with God springs from Christ's shed blood, not the promises of Abraham and the Law of Moses.

While saying nothing of whether the old covenant continues in force for Jews, I would argue that gentile Christians are certainly not bound by its terms.

I understand exactly what you are saying Akimori Makoto.   But that brings up confusion back to the Eucharist thread the other day where you gave me EXCELLENT references to church fathers.

"drink from this, all of you, this is my blood of the new covenant"
and
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

So if the Eucharist is blood, we are also told in acts to not drink blood, and blood is of course against Kosher.
But obviously the church fathers believed drinking the blood of Christ is okay.

Of course I understand God could have an exemption to the Eucharist. (Is this proper Orthodox think?)

Arg, I'm confused.
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« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2011, 10:01:34 PM »

Arg, I'm confused.

If the retention of Jewish law was required for salvation (and remember eating Kosher is only a small part of that), then the true Church died out long ago. There have been Christians attracted to Jewish practices for almost all of the history of the Church. It is why St. John Chrysostom forbade living by Jewish law, it leads to confussion.

The Messianic Jews themselves are part of a 40 year old movement. They have grown out of syncratism between the modern varient of Pharisitic Judaism, and Protestant Christianity. They have no claims to the legitimacy of early Christianity or the Judaism that preceeded it.
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« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2011, 10:03:04 PM »

In the BIBLE it is written that the dread was from GOD. Isn't that enough for you or are Acts not enough kosher to you?

The book of Acts was written by St. Luke, who was a follower of St. Paul, who also was the only NT author that had a different story of the thieves next to our Lord and Savior.  His version spoke of the one thief "being saved".   The other books just say the thieves insulted him.  

So yes, I believe that there can be inconsistencies in the bible.  

However, I do believe that Luke is genuine (slang of Kosher) as well as Acts.  They are genuine books and I consider them 99.9% right.  But the quote from Acts 15:29 (I posted above) "seems" to create a confusing paradox with the Eucharist.  Our God tells us to "drink his blood" in many places, but Acts 15:29 says not to drink blood.  

It's confusing me because "food to a Jew" that was "made clean" would not be things like shellfish or bugs, because they are not considered food to a Jew.
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« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2011, 10:14:54 PM »

So if the Eucharist is blood, we are also told in acts to not drink blood, and blood is of course against Kosher.
But obviously the church fathers believed drinking the blood of Christ is okay.

Of course I understand God could have an exemption to the Eucharist. (Is this proper Orthodox think?)

Arg, I'm confused.

Obviously, I do not know the mind of God, but just recall what happened in the sixth chapter of John's gospel: the Jews were horrified at the idea of drinking the Lord's blood, probably because drinking blood was so strongly condemned in the Hebrew scriptures. Nevertheless, the Lord didn't tell them he was speaking symbolically -- he told them to get over it and drink his blood already.

So, whatever we are meant to observe about drinking blood generally (I'm not bold enough to say I have the answers!), this much is certain -- the Eucharist is exceptional.
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« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2011, 10:17:29 PM »

Arg, I'm confused.

If the retention of Jewish law was required for salvation (and remember eating Kosher is only a small part of that), then the true Church died out long ago. There have been Christians attracted to Jewish practices for almost all of the history of the Church. It is why St. John Chrysostom forbade living by Jewish law, it leads to confussion.

The Messianic Jews themselves are part of a 40 year old movement. They have grown out of syncratism between the modern varient of Pharisitic Judaism, and Protestant Christianity. They have no claims to the legitimacy of early Christianity or the Judaism that preceeded it.

The history of Messianic Jews does matter, however, their time may be short but does this make somebody wrong?  If we can't overly prove the errors of their specific arguments I wouldn't see their history as important as what they are saying.

The question to me exists that if our GOD Jesus ate Kosher, and pigs, shellfish, rabbit, etc. he would not eat, shouldn't we?
I can't find one place where an EARLY church father at non-Kosher.

John the Baptist at Locusts and Honey.  Locusts being the only invertebrate that is Kosher.  

I'm just searching for examples of non-Kosher eating because I feel the Messianic Jews make a good point on the original post link that I listed.
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« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2011, 10:21:34 PM »

I am just guessing, but I think Jesus may have had a difficult time *not* eating kosher- he grew up in a Jewish environment. It's not like there were a lot of ham and cheese sandwiches at the corner stand.   Embarrassed
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« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2011, 10:22:20 PM »

So if the Eucharist is blood, we are also told in acts to not drink blood, and blood is of course against Kosher.
But obviously the church fathers believed drinking the blood of Christ is okay.

Of course I understand God could have an exemption to the Eucharist. (Is this proper Orthodox think?)

Arg, I'm confused.

Obviously, I do not know the mind of God, but just recall what happened in the sixth chapter of John's gospel: the Jews were horrified at the idea of drinking the Lord's blood, probably because drinking blood was so strongly condemned in the Hebrew scriptures. Nevertheless, the Lord didn't tell them he was speaking symbolically -- he told them to get over it and drink his blood already.

So, whatever we are meant to observe about drinking blood generally (I'm not bold enough to say I have the answers!), this much is certain -- the Eucharist is exceptional.

Thanks.  I agree it must be exceptional.  I mean its is "exceptional"  Wink.   Also his flesh, and people of course aren't Kosher.

Sometimes I wonder if I should just try to stop making "logic" out of all of it, hope the church got it right through all these years and just accept it.  It's blind and I may never know the truth about everything or everything may not make sense...  I don't know if I'm worthy of his flesh or blood.

Can one sit in church doubting certain things and be worthy of you being in him, and him in you?
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« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2011, 10:24:49 PM »

I am just guessing, but I think Jesus may have had a difficult time *not* eating kosher- he grew up in a Jewish environment. It's not like there were a lot of ham and cheese sandwiches at the corner stand.   Embarrassed

LOL.   Grin

Well of course there were bugs, snakes, rabbits, varmits etc.   LOL, but I know what you mean.  Not many Rabbinical oyster bars in the neighborhood.  Plus people watching/judging? - I assume.
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« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2011, 10:26:01 PM »

The question to me exists that if our GOD Jesus ate Kosher, and pigs, shellfish, rabbit, etc. he would not eat, shouldn't we?

By that logic, circumcision should be mandatory for Christians because the Lord was circumcised.

I am not asking you this to be flippant or inflammatory (I believe you ask good questions), but are you having the same dilemma over circumcision?

I think if you can get past the circumcision issue and really understand why circumcision is not required for gentile Christians, your questions about other Jewish practices, including dietary practices, will also be answered.

Can one sit in church doubting certain things and be worthy of you being in him, and him in you?

No-one is worthy. That is why we pray at every liturgy to be counted worthy by God's mercy and grace. The best prayer is "I believe, Lord, help my unbelief!".
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« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2011, 11:18:27 PM »

The question to me exists that if our GOD Jesus ate Kosher, and pigs, shellfish, rabbit, etc. he would not eat, shouldn't we?

By that logic, circumcision should be mandatory for Christians because the Lord was circumcised.

I am not asking you this to be flippant or inflammatory (I believe you ask good questions), but are you having the same dilemma over circumcision?

I think if you can get past the circumcision issue and really understand why circumcision is not required for gentile Christians, your questions about other Jewish practices, including dietary practices, will also be answered.

Can one sit in church doubting certain things and be worthy of you being in him, and him in you?

No-one is worthy. That is why we pray at every liturgy to be counted worthy by God's mercy and grace. The best prayer is "I believe, Lord, help my unbelief!".

Yes, I believe all Christians should be circumcised.   Our Lord was.
I wonder if this is part of "taking up our crosses and following him".
I may not get my head around all this, but may just have to "accept it".

Thanks for your great responses Akimori Makoto
 
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« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2011, 11:26:25 PM »

Circumcision = flesh belongs to God.
Baptism= flesh plus soul belongs to God.

JER 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts,

and in their heart will I write it;

and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

see, the law will be written in heart that connects body and soul so it will affect soul => flesh plus soul belongs to God.

Moses respected Nohide laws before receiving Old Law or Moses Law. after that nobody was interested about Noahide laws. same here. You become child of God with everything of New Law.

There are 3 categories of people:
Normal people obeying Noahide laws. They go probably to Hell.
People of God obeying Laws of Moses.They go probably to Hell.
Children of God obeying laws of New Law. They can go to Heaven.

People not understanding not having the abc of eternal life and picking from one or another law as they see fit. Hopefully they will pick most from New Law.

Yeshuisiam I like your name.
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« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2011, 11:33:47 PM »

Thanks for your great responses Akimori Makoto

No worries, my friend.

I think you've opened a can of worms with that statement on circumcision, hahah.

I also like your name a lot.
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« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2011, 01:14:55 AM »

There is no such thing as a 'Gentile' Christian.

There is Israel - which is the Church.

There are 'Jews' - which reject the Church.

It seems to me that 'Gentiles' is something of a made-up word... which originally meant simply 'nations', sometimes referring to those nations which did not know the One True God; the God of all Israel, Who we know is Jesus Christ.

So a Christian cannot be a 'Gentile'.

~~~ ~~~ ~~~

As for 'Kosher'...

What is 'Kosher'? Where can I find 'Kosher' in the Bible?

Through influence in the media the word 'Kosher' has become part of everyday American vocabulary.

In using the word now, it is used as the Jews use it... as if it signifies a good thing.

But if to keep Kosher means to attempt to keep the Law... then from a Christian point of view it's not a good thing because the law is death.

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« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2011, 01:38:36 AM »

So if the Eucharist is blood, we are also told in acts to not drink blood, and blood is of course against Kosher.
But obviously the church fathers believed drinking the blood of Christ is okay.

Of course I understand God could have an exemption to the Eucharist. (Is this proper Orthodox think?)

Arg, I'm confused.

From the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:

Quote
Accept our supplications, O God; make us worthy to offer unto thee prayers and supplications, and unbloody sacrifices for all thy people.

Quote
Again we offer unto thee this rational [noetic?] and unbloody worship, and we call upon thee and pray thee, and supplicate thee: send down thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth...

And make this bread the precious Body of thy Christ.
Amen.
And again the deacon: Bless, Father, the holy cup. And the priest blessing, says:
Amen.
And that which is in this cup the precious Blood of thy Christ.
Amen.

Did that make it more confusing, or more clear?  Cheesy

Yes, I believe all Christians should be circumcised.   Our Lord was.
But this directly contradicts the conciliar Decree of the Apostles at the Council of Jerusalem.
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« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2011, 02:04:48 AM »

Just out of curiosity,

If our God and Savior Jesus Christ ate Kosher as a man here on Earth, and he is our example, wouldn't we want to follow that?

I suppose in sheer wonder if it's right to change this entire law over a dream of St. PETER.  I understand dreams can be inspired by God, but if God himself ate Kosher do we allow a dream to change this?


Peter's dream was a revelation that Gentiles would also be included in the New Covenant. Yes, it was also a revelation that salvation is not predicated upon what we eat or drink. However, as Christians, we have a moral repsonsibility to respect our earth, to respect our bodies, to respect God's creatures, and to love our neighbors. Therefore, we should consider the physical, social, moral, and spiritual consequences of what we eat. It may be permissable to eat animals, but it is not permissable to torture them. So I would argue that a Kosher diet may be more Christian than a non-Kosher diet. Of course, I would also argue that a vegetarian diet is preferable to a Kosher diet.

Just my opinion.


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« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2011, 04:52:14 AM »

Did Jesus eat Kosher food?

The answer to this question is the same as the answer given to the following question:

Was Jesus circumcised?
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« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2011, 07:50:33 AM »

I suppose in sheer wonder if it's right to change this entire law over a dream of St. PETER.  I understand dreams can be inspired by God, but if God himself ate Kosher do we allow a dream to change this?
The Council of Jerusalem was not Peter's dream.

Yeah. The Church collectively decided to end the kosher rules.

And the dream was not really about eating kosher anyway. The dream was to get St Peter to stop judging the Gentiles.

I'm not sure how theologically correct this opinion is, but I'm of the view that, although the council of Jerusalem settled the manner definitively, Christ himself put an end to the kosher laws when he said "drink from this, all of you, this is my blood of the new covenant".

The old covenant was not given to those of us who are gentiles. Our relationship with God springs from Christ's shed blood, not the promises of Abraham and the Law of Moses.

While saying nothing of whether the old covenant continues in force for Jews, I would argue that gentile Christians are certainly not bound by its terms.

I understand exactly what you are saying Akimori Makoto.   But that brings up confusion back to the Eucharist thread the other day where you gave me EXCELLENT references to church fathers.

"drink from this, all of you, this is my blood of the new covenant"
and
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

So if the Eucharist is blood, we are also told in acts to not drink blood, and blood is of course against Kosher.
But obviously the church fathers believed drinking the blood of Christ is okay.

Of course I understand God could have an exemption to the Eucharist. (Is this proper Orthodox think?)

Arg, I'm confused.

Not exactly. They believed drinking blood in the form or wine was okay. .
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« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2011, 08:36:25 AM »

Just out of curiosity,

If our God and Savior Jesus Christ ate Kosher as a man here on Earth, and he is our example, wouldn't we want to follow that?

I suppose in sheer wonder if it's right to change this entire law over a dream of St. PETER.  I understand dreams can be inspired by God, but if God himself ate Kosher do we allow a dream to change this?

If our God and Savior Jesus Christ ate Kosher as a man here on Earth, and he is our example, wouldn't we want to follow that?

Nope..

I don't wear sandals or sack cloth either. Nor do I go to Synagogue or ritually wash my hands before eating. I also observe Sunday as my day of worship rather than Saturday..

Or for that matter observe the Jewish Passover.
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« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2011, 09:23:18 AM »

Just out of curiosity,

If our God and Savior Jesus Christ ate Kosher as a man here on Earth, and he is our example, wouldn't we want to follow that?

I suppose in sheer wonder if it's right to change this entire law over a dream of St. PETER.  I understand dreams can be inspired by God, but if God himself ate Kosher do we allow a dream to change this?


Peter's dream was a revelation that Gentiles would also be included in the New Covenant. Yes, it was also a revelation that salvation is not predicated upon what we eat or drink. However, as Christians, we have a moral repsonsibility to respect our earth, to respect our bodies, to respect God's creatures, and to love our neighbors. Therefore, we should consider the physical, social, moral, and spiritual consequences of what we eat. It may be permissable to eat animals, but it is not permissable to torture them. So I would argue that a Kosher diet may be more Christian than a non-Kosher diet. Of course, I would also argue that a vegetarian diet is preferable to a Kosher diet.
While meat eating is permitted, I read into the fasts not just fasting as a discipline, as a form of austerity, but see the dietary prescriptions as helping open us out to a new enhanced connection with God.  If we are not slaughtering animals we are being more compassionate, treading lighter on the planet, and compassion is always better than passion.
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« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2011, 09:43:46 AM »

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Just out of curiosity,

If our God and Savior Jesus Christ ate Kosher as a man here on Earth, and he is our example, wouldn't we want to follow that?

I suppose in sheer wonder if it's right to change this entire law over a dream of St. PETER.  I understand dreams can be inspired by God, but if God himself ate Kosher do we allow a dream to change this?
You have the problem that that dream is recorded in Scripture. That should settle the matter.  Then there is the Gospel where Christ says it is what passes out of a man that is unclean "thereby declaring all foods pure."

Christ was constantly violating the Sabbath and was crucified, literally, for that, but "the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."  He having fulfilled the Law, us holding to the Law to save in spite of that means to crucify Him again.
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« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2011, 09:57:07 AM »

!המשיח קם
Just out of curiosity,

If our God and Savior Jesus Christ ate Kosher as a man here on Earth, and he is our example, wouldn't we want to follow that?

I suppose in sheer wonder if it's right to change this entire law over a dream of St. PETER.  I understand dreams can be inspired by God, but if God himself ate Kosher do we allow a dream to change this?
You have the problem that that dream is recorded in Scripture. That should settle the matter.  Then there is the Gospel where Christ says it is what passes out of a man that is unclean "thereby declaring all foods pure."

Christ was constantly violating the Sabbath and was crucified, literally, for that, but "the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."  He having fulfilled the Law, us holding to the Law to save in spite of that means to crucify Him again.

Absolutely agreed!

It never ceases to amaze me how subjects that were, or should have been, taught to us in Basic Orthodox Catechisim come up over and over again from both 'cradles' and 'converts'. What is more interesting is that many seem to proclaim their own 'interpretations' of Scripture or the Holy Canons or Holy Tradition in ways that are at best inconsistent with the accepted teachings of Orthodoxy - be they 'world' or otherwise.

I keep reading a common response to questions which begin something like 'What is the teaching of Orthodoxy on this or that' and many seem to reply, 'well, we really don't have a definitive position like the Romans etc....' On most of the important doctrines and teachings of our Faith this is simply not true.

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