OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 21, 2014, 12:40:10 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Do you believe that Jesus ate Kosher?  (Read 6341 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #90 on: May 11, 2011, 11:03:47 AM »

Yeshuaisiam, I am about to head to bed, but I have to say this:

Please, for your own spiritual benefit, STOP INTERPRETING THE SCRIPTURE ON YOUR OWN.

You are assessing Orthodoxy through the lens of your own interpretation of scripture. This is not only blatant protestantism, it is also very spiritually damaging, because you are basically defining the limits of truth and then seeking to find a faith that agrees with those limits you yourself have imposed. There is no spiritual growth without challenge, change of the mind and transformation of the heart.

I believe a Hindu guru said "when I am studying Christianity, I take down my images of the Hindu gods and put up images of the Christian saints". This means when examining a faith you have to take it on its own terms. You have to do this, because every single aspect of a faith is intertwined with every other aspect. You can't dissect Orthodox doctrine according to what you feel the scriptures say: you must meet it on its own terms.

Because you don't accept basic things that most of us here accept -- our Lord's Jewishness, Paul's authority, the ramifications of the Virgin being Theotokos -- it is basically impossible for us to lead you to the true Orthodox teaching on other matters, because all these things are intertwined.

I really think you are doing yourself a great disservice by refusing to engage with Orthodox teaching on its own terms. Just accept, as a mental exercise, that the four gospels are true, that Paul has teaching authority, that the Church is mystically the very body of Christ, that the Mosaic law does not apply to non-Jews. If you do that, we will be able to have a meaningful conversation on issues like "did Jesus eat kosher and should we?".

Once you have really immersed yourself in Orthodox teachings and met Orthodoxy on its own turf, so to speak, you can then decide to jettison all these things and to reject them. But, for your own sake, stop trying to force Orthodoxy into the box of your own preconceptions, because it probably isn't going to fit.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 6,046


When in doubt, say: "you lack the proper φρόνημα"


« Reply #91 on: May 11, 2011, 11:38:55 AM »

This is no secret, that EO & RC does wrong calling priests "Father", when God directly commanded "Do not call any man Father... Or Rabbi".  Priests are presbyters & teachers.  Through Paul, we call priests "father".

No matter what explanation or apologetics are given, this is directly DEFYING God.  God said "Do NOT CALL any man FATHER".   Period.
Fathers in Christ =/= Fathers of their own authority and prototypos.
So do all of you want to call an individual that murdered Christians in cold blood, then had an enlightening moment, then directly taught AGAINST what Yeshua taught us, to call men "father".  Is that a disciple?

I feel many times people take Paul as an apostle because that's what they've been told to think.  Not because they consider what he actually taught.
"Having always have done so" doesn't make it right.   Jesus said do not call men "fahter", and through Paul, we call men father.

So no, I wouldn't say Paul was an apostle.
Of course, history is written by the vicars, and the vicars made him one.  But God did not choose him while he was flesh on Earth.

Perhaps some would say I have deeper faith issues being extremely skeptical of anything Paul teaches.
You don't understand how to reconcile apparent contradictions, and so you erroneously declare one thing false and another true. This is a most illogical and close-minded way of thinking.  Undecided Your argument is of the same ilk as Christ Myth Theorists, 9/11 Truthers and Intelligent Design proponents.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 11:39:06 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,352


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #92 on: May 11, 2011, 11:40:03 AM »

Yeshuaisiam, I am about to head to bed, but I have to say this:

Please, for your own spiritual benefit, STOP INTERPRETING THE SCRIPTURE ON YOUR OWN.

You are assessing Orthodoxy through the lens of your own interpretation of scripture. This is not only blatant protestantism, it is also very spiritually damaging, because you are basically defining the limits of truth and then seeking to find a faith that agrees with those limits you yourself have imposed. There is no spiritual growth without challenge, change of the mind and transformation of the heart.

I believe a Hindu guru said "when I am studying Christianity, I take down my images of the Hindu gods and put up images of the Christian saints". This means when examining a faith you have to take it on its own terms. You have to do this, because every single aspect of a faith is intertwined with every other aspect. You can't dissect Orthodox doctrine according to what you feel the scriptures say: you must meet it on its own terms.

Because you don't accept basic things that most of us here accept -- our Lord's Jewishness, Paul's authority, the ramifications of the Virgin being Theotokos -- it is basically impossible for us to lead you to the true Orthodox teaching on other matters, because all these things are intertwined.

I really think you are doing yourself a great disservice by refusing to engage with Orthodox teaching on its own terms. Just accept, as a mental exercise, that the four gospels are true, that Paul has teaching authority, that the Church is mystically the very body of Christ, that the Mosaic law does not apply to non-Jews. If you do that, we will be able to have a meaningful conversation on issues like "did Jesus eat kosher and should we?".

Once you have really immersed yourself in Orthodox teachings and met Orthodoxy on its own turf, so to speak, you can then decide to jettison all these things and to reject them. But, for your own sake, stop trying to force Orthodoxy into the box of your own preconceptions, because it probably isn't going to fit.

I know my friend.  I completely hear you and understand.
I believe you are right.

So basically I'm going to have one of two choices.

1) To accept Orthodoxy.
2) To reject Orthodoxy.

Despite my issues or questions.
Wow.  I probably have a ton of praying to do.  I just don't know if I can stop thinking up stuff.
How can one directly just "Stop" in their tracks and how their mind works and just put a huge damper on it... and join in?

That will be the challenge of my life.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,352


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #93 on: May 11, 2011, 11:56:52 AM »

This is no secret, that EO & RC does wrong calling priests "Father", when God directly commanded "Do not call any man Father... Or Rabbi".  Priests are presbyters & teachers.  Through Paul, we call priests "father".

No matter what explanation or apologetics are given, this is directly DEFYING God.  God said "Do NOT CALL any man FATHER".   Period.
Fathers in Christ =/= Fathers of their own authority and prototypos.
So do all of you want to call an individual that murdered Christians in cold blood, then had an enlightening moment, then directly taught AGAINST what Yeshua taught us, to call men "father".  Is that a disciple?

I feel many times people take Paul as an apostle because that's what they've been told to think.  Not because they consider what he actually taught.
"Having always have done so" doesn't make it right.   Jesus said do not call men "fahter", and through Paul, we call men father.

So no, I wouldn't say Paul was an apostle.
Of course, history is written by the vicars, and the vicars made him one.  But God did not choose him while he was flesh on Earth.

Perhaps some would say I have deeper faith issues being extremely skeptical of anything Paul teaches.
You don't understand how to reconcile apparent contradictions, and so you erroneously declare one thing false and another true. This is a most illogical and close-minded way of thinking.  Undecided Your argument is of the same ilk as Christ Myth Theorists, 9/11 Truthers and Intelligent Design proponents.

I don't think that's fair and it sort of demogogues me & my point in hypotheticals you came up with.
Jesus said "call no man Father".
You say "because of this and this" we can call people "Father".

If you believe Jesus is God, do you believe "this and this", or obey God himself?

I have no issues dealing in contradictions so long as they make sense.

But I obviously have a ton of praying to do.  I seriously may be hopeless to become EO, but I'm trying.  Just know that I'm not trying to be personally "in your face", but many of these issues I ask about have brewed in me for years.

My wife and I once attended a protestant church (one time) because a family friend wanted us to come to their son's play afterwards.  We ended up in Sunday school.  A few minutes into it they started talking about "your own personal relationship with Jesus Christ"... My reply was "but even John the Baptist wasn't worthy of untying his sandals".... Later they started literally "praying for financial help", and I asked "how can we be praying for financial help when all of us are wearing the garments from the slave labor of children in sweat shops - we have it better than most of the world".

Anyway, I was asked to leave.

That's what led into a year of some study and we ended up at an Amish/Mennonite church because I felt like a hypocrite wearing sweat shop clothes.  They were a very honest bunch, very practicing in Christianity, but very "basic" is the way I'd describe it.   PLAIN.  no fluff. The issue there "who voted in the bible books"?.  They didn't know.  o...k....   I explained the EO / RC split and going back to the "Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church".  They were fine by that.  I asked "if they were wrong why do we use their Bible they voted"?  No answer.   Awesome people... I mean Awesome.  But no answer. 

If they did answer that God "wanted his word" untarnished and used them to deliver his message unscathed, then they'd be stuck saying the councils voted the will of the Holy Spirit.


So you see.  I've been through a rut, and trust me, I could bore you guys with my story. 
So that led in vast research and I watched Bishiops duking it out over Ecumenism and creating irony on the Canon.

I'm just seeking TRUTH.

Perhaps nobody will be able to explain.  I'm not sure.
But please pray for me, and I will pray for guidance too.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #94 on: May 11, 2011, 02:04:34 PM »

Paul is an Apostle because Christ Himself met Paul, after His death and resurrection, and after Pentecost.  Christ conferred the status of Apostle on Paul by directly ordaining him, much as he did for the 12 (if I am mistaken here, please someone correct me, it's been a while since I read Paul's account of his conversion).

As for Christ not taking his flesh from the Virgin, the Nestorian heresy was dealt with long ago, and perhaps you ought to consider yourself an Assyrian "Christian" instead of an Orthodox Christian.

As for "call no man father" what do you call the man whose seed impregnated your mother?  Do you call him M.W.S.I.M.M. (an acronym of Man Whose Seed Impregnated My Mother)?  If you call him father, you are violating your own understanding of the Gospel.  If you call him dad, you are violating the spirit of your own understanding.  So what do you call him?  This is the problem with interpreting the Bible yourself and outside of Tradition, you interpret it however suits you.  When I was still a Protestant, earlier before I fell away from that falsehood, I had been extremely conservative and could justify each and every view I held with the Bible.  When I was closer to leaving, I was significantly more liberal, and could jsutify each and every view I held with the Bible.  When you interpret the Bible yourself, all you do is to transplant your own desires on to the words of the Apostles.  You do not interpret the Bible, but declare your own Gospel.  You create the Gospel of Me, and instead of 1 Peter and James, you have 1 Me, 2 Me, 3 Me, and so own (with one or two Epistles of I, and Letters of Myself).

There are countless reasons that you CAN call a priest father.  One example I have heard is that Christ was speaking in this passage of those false teachers who teach by their own authority and interpretation, essentially what you are doing.  So Christ is declaring that people that teach as you do are not to be called father or teacher.  However, when you teach on the authority of the Church, when you teach the Traditions of the Fathers, you have no reason to NOT be called father or teacher.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 13,271


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #95 on: May 11, 2011, 03:28:57 PM »

If we argue Jesus was born from Mary's flesh & genetics, then Jesus would be sinful, because of Original sin.
1. "Jewishness" is passed on through the maternal line.

2. He took his flesh from Mary. He had the Virgin Mary's genetic line. If you believe he came through Mary but did not take flesh from her, then you are denying the term Theotokos and denying the truth of the incarnation. Intercourse with the Holy Spirit was not necessary for Christ to have taken his flesh from Mary.

If we argue Jesus was born from Mary's flesh & genetics, then Jesus would be sinful, because of Original sin.
That's like saying a transplanted liver becomes sick in a new body because the previous liver was not healthy. Jesus healed man's Original Sin by BECOMING incarnate, suffering in the flesh, dying on the Cross, and Rising on the third day. Christ healed human nature by uniting it to his divine nature in one undivided Person, the same Person of the Son, Word and Wisdom of God.

Orthodox also do not believe that Adam and Eve's Original Sin transmits guilt for that sin to all humanity. It transmits death, corruption, spiritual blindness and a disposition to sin, but not sinfulness itself. The Roman Catholcs DO believe all these things, and that is why they invented the Immaculate Conception doctrine.

Theotokos means "mother of God".   I don't deny that.
But I stand that her egg wasn't fertilized from God.
A mother is much more than a fertilized egg.
The lineage did work out anyway as the birth giver of the messiah.

You also hit something on the head.  If Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox don't agree on something such as original sin, and there are 1 billion plus RC's and 300 million plus EO - Then who is right?

As you can see CHURCHES have damaged my faith.  They don't agree on squat.  There are huge power grabs.  That's why you see me peeling this apart to lowest levels and not jumping on board with anything.

Jesus was Fully God ... AND..... FULLY HUMAN.

That means he has all the attributes of the people he was born into. His Mother was a Jew ( you agree, right?) so he was a Jew. He took his human nature from her, blood, genetics, appearance etc. just like all Humans.. Fully Human means Fully.

I am sorry you feel so confused and so victimized. Some people like be victims as a way to navigate through life... Stop it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYLMTvxOaeE
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #96 on: May 11, 2011, 03:40:34 PM »

Yeshuaisiam, what do you think about the Council of Jerusalem bit? It seems to have been swallowed up in all the comments from different people throughout the thread, but it's been mentioned several times and is the critical evidence against the need for gentiles keeping Kosher.

I hope that you read the link I posted in the original.   I don't believe the council told people to stop eating Kosher.
"food" was not items that were not law.  For instance, a snake or hog was not food to the Jews at all.  Defiled "food" at idols, blood, was all obvious (of course except for the Eucharist).

The council of Jerusalem I also feels has some inconsistencies between Galations 2 and Acts.  I'm one who often challenges the writings of Luke, who obviously had an inconsistency of the thieves on the cross with the other synoptic gospels.  So in some ways I get sketchy with Acts.  This is important as those simple verses in Luke created a complex issue that we can be "saved on our death bed" which kind of circumvents Jacob's ladder.   The other gospels didn't speak of the thieves this way.  So which gospel do you believe?  Many say the Eastern Cross with the slanted bar reflects the story in the gospel of Luke, of course, it doesn't represent the other Gospels.  

Could the Eastern Orthodox cross itself be erroneous?  Matthew and Mark both said they insulted our Lord, yet Luke is pushed.  The Eastern Orthodox cross could represent that we think a thief who insulted Jesus went to heaven.

None the less, "we call it a council", but did they?
Do we want to trust things that came from councils 325 years later and on held by a started by a world leader (Constantine)?

What about Nazarite Christians?

Did Jesus teach worship on the Sabbath, or the 1st Day?

Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was really raised from the dead on the third day after being crucified as the Son of God and the Messiah in fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets?

Yes, I believe that Yeshua of Nazareth rose from the dead on the 3rd day after being crucified.  I believe he is the son of God, and the Messiah.  I believe he fulfilled the law of the prophets.

Do you believe that He ascended into heaven and sits at the right of the Father and will return again to judge the living and the dead?
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 13,271


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #97 on: May 11, 2011, 04:27:04 PM »

In all seriousness, I think there is a problem with your basic approach. You are listing various factoids and making comparisons and taking opinions and then re-listing mixing in your personal preferences and pet theories.

It's like being locked inside a pharmacy all night. You take off the shelf a little of this and a little of that and brew up a medicine cocktail. You figure"its all medicine' without the training to put the ingredients together. Then you end up poisoned and wonder why  

I think you should be asking just one or two very basic questions. The most important is simply an historical one. Is this Church the exact same Church founded by Christ and the Apostles on the day of Pentecost? You will have limited choices. Then submit yourself to them so you can learn how to practice sacramental Christianity.

Then show up each week and be transformed. Eventually you will be better able to resolve questions you have wondered about. It is a chicken or egg sort of thing.

Or remain a dilettante and show up to all kinds of Churches and ask all kinds of nit picky questions and point out seeming contradictions and get all the attention you want.

So I think you need to change course. Study the history of the Chruch and accept the proposition that the Ancient Church has teaching authority and then start showing up.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 04:27:20 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,898


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #98 on: May 11, 2011, 05:01:29 PM »

The question to me exists that if our GOD Jesus ate Kosher, and pigs, shellfish, rabbit, etc. he would not eat, shouldn't we?

By that logic, circumcision should be mandatory for Christians because the Lord was circumcised.

I am not asking you this to be flippant or inflammatory (I believe you ask good questions), but are you having the same dilemma over circumcision?

I think if you can get past the circumcision issue and really understand why circumcision is not required for gentile Christians, your questions about other Jewish practices, including dietary practices, will also be answered.

Can one sit in church doubting certain things and be worthy of you being in him, and him in you?

No-one is worthy. That is why we pray at every liturgy to be counted worthy by God's mercy and grace. The best prayer is "I believe, Lord, help my unbelief!".

Yes, I believe all Christians should be circumcised.   Our Lord was.
Then give up your car, buy a pair of sandals, and walk everywhere you need to go, because that's what Jesus did.
Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,341


fleem
WWW
« Reply #99 on: May 11, 2011, 08:25:45 PM »

If the phrase "Call no man father" really means "never use the word father again," what are you supposed to call a male parent?  Huh Come on. That verse has been taken out of context so often, it almost has tracks. People who quote that verse inevitably skip the one where Jesus refers to "Father Abraham" (Avraham Avinu or 'Abraham our father' still being a term of respect to this day among Orthodox Jews in reference to the prophet Abraham).  Roll Eyes
Logged

Charlie Rose: "If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?"

Fran Lebowitz: "Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisified."

spcasuncoast.org
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #100 on: May 11, 2011, 08:28:41 PM »

If the phrase "Call no man father" really means "never use the word father again," what are you supposed to call a male parent?  Huh Come on. That verse has been taken out of context so often, it almost has tracks. People who quote that verse inevitably skip the one where Jesus refers to "Father Abraham" (Avraham Avinu or 'Abraham our father' still being a term of respect to this day among Orthodox Jews in reference to the prophet Abraham).  Roll Eyes

Or where Christ asks "Why do you call me good?".
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
jewish voice
High Elder
******
Online Online

Posts: 661



« Reply #101 on: November 14, 2014, 09:01:38 PM »

To me I still kinda keep kosher. What I mean by kosher is my food don't need the mark or rabbi. I don't eat pork or shell fish and only eat clean fish. I don't run around telling others to eat like me nor point fingers anymore Tongue. There are different ideas of kosher even in judaism. It's my personal eating habits that I choose for myself and doesn't save me. to me I find it keeps my walk close to God and my heritage of being Jewish. I look at it as the fasting the church does not really law but isn't harmful if one doesn't fast at least that's my understanding
Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,430


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #102 on: November 14, 2014, 09:42:41 PM »

Quote
I look at it as the fasting the church does not really law but isn't harmful if one doesn't fast at least that's my understanding

Ummm, this doesn't make sense. Could you please rewrite it more clearly?  Huh
Logged
jewish voice
High Elder
******
Online Online

Posts: 661



« Reply #103 on: November 14, 2014, 09:57:39 PM »

Quote
I look at it as the fasting the church does not really law but isn't harmful if one doesn't fast at least that's my understanding

Ummm, this doesn't make sense. Could you please rewrite it more clearly?  Huh
it's my understanding that the fasting that the church does and hold to isn't law as one must do this for salvation. If one can't fast or doesn't fast we are not to judge and doesn't hurt ones salvation.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 09:58:22 PM by jewish voice » Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,430


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #104 on: November 14, 2014, 10:17:51 PM »

Quote
I look at it as the fasting the church does not really law but isn't harmful if one doesn't fast at least that's my understanding

Ummm, this doesn't make sense. Could you please rewrite it more clearly?  Huh
it's my understanding that the fasting that the church does and hold to isn't law as one must do this for salvation. If one can't fast or doesn't fast we are not to judge and doesn't hurt ones salvation.

While fasting or not fasting is ultimately something between the person and his or her priest or spiritual adviser, I recommend you look at the liturgical texts for Cheese-fare Week and Sunday, and the text of the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete, conducted during the first week of Great Lent.

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/cheese_week.htm
Logged
Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Anglican (Episcopal Church)
Posts: 143



« Reply #105 on: November 15, 2014, 02:59:40 PM »

I've done much research into Messianic Jews, and one thing my family practices now is to eat Kosher.  Of course, this is not commonly practiced by Eastern Orthodox Christians.

I'm needing help to personally refute articles like the one below.
http://www.lightofmashiach.org/kosher.html

These refutations help me to become "more Orthodox" and to help perhaps "unlearn" some things I have come across.

Such as "What did Jews consider food".
or
Are there any examples of very early church fathers eating foods that were not Kosher?

Thanks & God Bless

{Fixed thread title, nothing more - Fr. George, Global Mod}

"Kosher" strictly so-called did not exist in the days of the first Christians.  If E.P.
Sanders (http://www.amazon.com/Judaism-Practice-Belief-63-Bce-66/dp/1563380153)
is to be believed, the idea of not eating meat with cheese was only just beginning to take
hold in Herodian times.  The elaborate definitions of what constitute "milk" and "meat",
and the regulations for things like separate sets of dishes, were still in the future.

If by "kosher" you mean "not eating pork or shellfish", then I am sure that most
early Gentile Christians did not keep "kosher" in this sense.  Jews and some Jewish
Christians seem to have disagreed about whether to eat at the same table with Gentiles
(Galations 3.11ff.)  Was this because they feared they might accidentally ingest
forbidden food?  Was it because they were scrupulous to eat only food that had been
properly tithed?  Was it a habit formed in days when pagan Gentiles might offer
libations to their gods at their meals?  I don't know, but I think it reasonable to
assume that Christians in Judea, Jewish or Gentile, would have eaten what was
available in Judea, while Christians elsewhere would have eaten what was available
to them, Jews and Jewish Christians outside Judea having a diversity of approaches
ranging from ignoring the food laws on the one hand to various forms of proto-kashrut
on the other.

I myself would not trouble to refute such a silly article as the one you link to. 



Logged

Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,934



« Reply #106 on: November 15, 2014, 03:08:14 PM »

To me I still kinda keep kosher. What I mean by kosher is my food don't need the mark or rabbi. I don't eat pork or shell fish and only eat clean fish. I don't run around telling others to eat like me nor point fingers anymore Tongue. There are different ideas of kosher even in judaism. It's my personal eating habits that I choose for myself and doesn't save me. to me I find it keeps my walk close to God and my heritage of being Jewish. I look at it as the fasting the church does not really law but isn't harmful if one doesn't fast at least that's my understanding

I've always found that peculiar. People observing a religious custom despite not observing the religion.
Logged

jewish voice
High Elder
******
Online Online

Posts: 661



« Reply #107 on: November 15, 2014, 03:42:47 PM »

To me I still kinda keep kosher. What I mean by kosher is my food don't need the mark or rabbi. I don't eat pork or shell fish and only eat clean fish. I don't run around telling others to eat like me nor point fingers anymore Tongue. There are different ideas of kosher even in judaism. It's my personal eating habits that I choose for myself and doesn't save me. to me I find it keeps my walk close to God and my heritage of being Jewish. I look at it as the fasting the church does not really law but isn't harmful if one doesn't fast at least that's my understanding

I've always found that peculiar. People observing a religious custom despite not observing the religion.
like I said to me I find spiritual benefits in my personal walk. Plus health benefits
Logged
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,352


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #108 on: November 15, 2014, 07:56:20 PM »

To me I still kinda keep kosher. What I mean by kosher is my food don't need the mark or rabbi. I don't eat pork or shell fish and only eat clean fish. I don't run around telling others to eat like me nor point fingers anymore Tongue. There are different ideas of kosher even in judaism. It's my personal eating habits that I choose for myself and doesn't save me. to me I find it keeps my walk close to God and my heritage of being Jewish. I look at it as the fasting the church does not really law but isn't harmful if one doesn't fast at least that's my understanding

I've always found that peculiar. People observing a religious custom despite not observing the religion.
like I said to me I find spiritual benefits in my personal walk. Plus health benefits

I agree with you.  This is something that we do.  While I don't believe that "eating clean" is necessary for salvation and that "all foods are clean", I do believe we can choose to eat this way for health reasons and for the love of God.

I see nothing wrong with obeying Torah law with food as a excellent guide to healthy eating.  Blood drained from animals and avoiding birds of prey, pork, catfish, rabbit, etc.  Many non-clean animals are poop eaters.  (catfish, pork, dog, rabbits, shrimp, etc.)

Pork is one of the most parasitic filled meats that exist.  It's loaded with fat.  I shoot them all the time on the farm.  I once shot one with a half swallowed cow patty in its mouth (a long while back).

HOWEVER, I do not see a biblical reason to condemn others (and I may have made this mistake here on oc.net before) for eating what Torah would call "unclean".   We choose to do this for health reasons and a good feeling to "link back" to the way Jesus would have eaten.

The New Testament fully supports Christians eating "clean" and respecting others who don't and not casting judgment on one another.

Romans 14:13-14 - 13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

I don't entirely esteem pork to be biblically unclean, but I esteem it to be nasty, which some could call unclean.  We don't eat it.  We don't judge others for eating it.  It's not what we do.

You know... Really... Sometimes I do admit I wonder why folks don't go to the pound to get some free dog meat.  Lot's of good eating right there.  Undecided
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
jewish voice
High Elder
******
Online Online

Posts: 661



« Reply #109 on: November 15, 2014, 10:58:28 PM »

To me I still kinda keep kosher. What I mean by kosher is my food don't need the mark or rabbi. I don't eat pork or shell fish and only eat clean fish. I don't run around telling others to eat like me nor point fingers anymore Tongue. There are different ideas of kosher even in judaism. It's my personal eating habits that I choose for myself and doesn't save me. to me I find it keeps my walk close to God and my heritage of being Jewish. I look at it as the fasting the church does not really law but isn't harmful if one doesn't fast at least that's my understanding

I've always found that peculiar. People observing a religious custom despite not observing the religion.
like I said to me I find spiritual benefits in my personal walk. Plus health benefits

I agree with you.  This is something that we do.  While I don't believe that "eating clean" is necessary for salvation and that "all foods are clean", I do believe we can choose to eat this way for health reasons and for the love of God.

I see nothing wrong with obeying Torah law with food as a excellent guide to healthy eating.  Blood drained from animals and avoiding birds of prey, pork, catfish, rabbit, etc.  Many non-clean animals are poop eaters.  (catfish, pork, dog, rabbits, shrimp, etc.)

Pork is one of the most parasitic filled meats that exist.  It's loaded with fat.  I shoot them all the time on the farm.  I once shot one with a half swallowed cow patty in its mouth (a long while back).

HOWEVER, I do not see a biblical reason to condemn others (and I may have made this mistake here on oc.net before) for eating what Torah would call "unclean".   We choose to do this for health reasons and a good feeling to "link back" to the way Jesus would have eaten.

The New Testament fully supports Christians eating "clean" and respecting others who don't and not casting judgment on one another.

Romans 14:13-14 - 13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

I don't entirely esteem pork to be biblically unclean, but I esteem it to be nasty, which some could call unclean.  We don't eat it.  We don't judge others for eating it.  It's not what we do.

You know... Really... Sometimes I do admit I wonder why folks don't go to the pound to get some free dog meat.  Lot's of good eating right there.  Undecided
you found the bible verses I was looking for earlier. Now how a priest or bishop in orthodoxy would say on this topic I'm not sure. To me Paul would see no fault in me for eating the way I do. Not like I'd go into church telling everyone how I eat. If someone offers me pork I'd nicely say no thank you I'm not hungry or something a long those lines
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 11:01:21 PM by jewish voice » Logged
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,805


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #110 on: November 16, 2014, 01:25:30 AM »

You know... Really... Sometimes I do admit I wonder why folks don't go to the pound to get some free dog meat.  Lot's of good eating right there.  Undecided

No dog pound is going to let you have a dog if they know you want to consume it.
Logged

biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,341


fleem
WWW
« Reply #111 on: November 16, 2014, 02:55:16 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
You know... Really... Sometimes I do admit I wonder why folks don't go to the pound to get some free dog meat.  Lot's of good eating right there.  Undecided

One, it's not free. Two, that's not what the dog pound is for.  Angry
Logged

Charlie Rose: "If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?"

Fran Lebowitz: "Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisified."

spcasuncoast.org
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 18,279


"Do not be afraid, Zechariah..."


WWW
« Reply #112 on: November 16, 2014, 03:45:13 PM »

You know... Really... Sometimes I do admit I wonder why folks don't go to the pound to get some free dog meat.  Lot's of good eating right there.  Undecided

Or you could just go to this restaurant...
Logged

The New World Order (1943 to present):

Jesuit Provincial > Jesuit Order > Jesuit Superior > Mor < Roman Pontiff < Illuminati Families < Holy See < UN
TheMathematician
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: American
Posts: 1,540


Formerly known as Montalo


« Reply #113 on: November 16, 2014, 03:47:11 PM »

It's interesting the value we place on animals and the difference. In general, people would not think twice about eating beef, chicken, turkey(and most people, pork as well), but when it comes to other animals, such as dogs, cats, horses, people refuse to eat them and find it despeciable, even though there is no difference(beisdes flavour, of course) between killing a dog for food and killing a turkey to eat.
Logged
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,299



« Reply #114 on: November 16, 2014, 04:29:21 PM »

Christ also wore sandals and slept the wilderness. Why stop at kosher diets?

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,341


fleem
WWW
« Reply #115 on: November 16, 2014, 04:40:32 PM »

Christ also wore sandals and slept the wilderness. Why stop at kosher diets?

In Christ,
Andrew

Because that wouldn't josh with his narrative. Too much work.

Logged

Charlie Rose: "If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?"

Fran Lebowitz: "Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisified."

spcasuncoast.org
jewish voice
High Elder
******
Online Online

Posts: 661



« Reply #116 on: November 16, 2014, 04:50:42 PM »

Christ also wore sandals and slept the wilderness. Why stop at kosher diets?

In Christ,
Andrew
are you making fun of saints and monks who give up such worldly things. Just wondering
Logged
Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Anglican (Episcopal Church)
Posts: 143



« Reply #117 on: November 16, 2014, 05:10:17 PM »

Are there any examples of very early church fathers eating foods that were not Kosher?
St. Paul advised the Corinthians,
Quote from: 1 Corinthians 10.27
If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience.
The "ground of conscience" here was whether the food had earlier been offered to pagan Gods.  The point was that as long as the believers did not take part in the sacrifices themselves (1 Cor. 10.14ff) the food itself was conscionable.  No question is raised about the species of flesh that will be eaten, and in a seaport town like Corinth there would presumably be shellfish on offer.

In the 4th century, the church father Aphrahat wrote his Demonstration 15 "On Making Distinctions among Foods".  A translation can be found at

http://books.google.com/books?id=3X8eAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA51

Aphrahat begins

Quote from: Aphrahat
Greatly vexed are the minds of simple and ordinary folk concerning things which go into the mouth, which are unable to defile man.  So say those who are perplexed by these matters:  God distinguished and explained to Moses his servant concerning unclean and clean foods.  He admonished Moses, These are appropriate to eat and these are worthy of being declared unclean.  And he commanded him concerning the living things, birds and fish which are in the sea, according to their species.  Concerning these things, my beloved, as best as I am able, I shall give you a little instruction, that foods in no way avail those who keep them, also in no way injure those who make use of them.

That some were "greatly vexed" suggests that questions similar to yours arose at that time and place also.  That Aphrahat replies by repeating Paul's teaching that no species is inherently unclean suggests that this church father, at least, saw nothing inherently wrong with eating pork of shellfish if and when they were available and his monastic rule allowed it.

I see nothing wrong with you adopting a custom of pork-avoidance within your own house as an act of devotion.  Swine are highly intelligent animals, the cousins of mammalian dolphins, and for this reason, it may be that in time we will come to see the eating of their flesh to be as repellent as eating the flesh of dogs or cats would be to many of us.  (This argument doesn't work for shellfish-avoidance, however.)  Examples of factors that would weigh against adopting such a form of piety would be (a) if it would weigh to heavily on the family budget; (b) if it would place to heavy a burden on those who prepare food in your household. 

Full disclosure:  I myself have a habit of pork-avoidance on account of having lived for many yours as part of a Jewish family (though never Jewish myself).  When shopping for my own pantry, I seldom buy pork.  On the other hand, it's not a matter of strict conscience:  I had ham in my soup for lunch today.
Logged

Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,299



« Reply #118 on: November 16, 2014, 05:50:28 PM »

Christ also wore sandals and slept the wilderness. Why stop at kosher diets?

In Christ,
Andrew
are you making fun of saints and monks who give up such worldly things. Just wondering
Nope. Just YiM's cherry picking and of various judaizing that justify his prelest.

In Christ,
Andrew
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 05:51:34 PM by Shlomlokh » Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,805


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #119 on: November 17, 2014, 11:33:41 AM »

It's interesting the value we place on animals and the difference. In general, people would not think twice about eating beef, chicken, turkey(and most people, pork as well), but when it comes to other animals, such as dogs, cats, horses, people refuse to eat them and find it despeciable, even though there is no difference(beisdes flavour, of course) between killing a dog for food and killing a turkey to eat.

There is no difference, it depends on what culture you're raised in and in what context.  I have eaten dog, cat, rat, and horse because I was in places where it's the norm.  There's a difference in going to a market in China to pick up dog meat (the dog being raised specifically for meat) or going to a pound in Boston, MA and ask the animal welfare officer if you can get a dog for dinner tonight.  Different cultures have different values when it comes to animals and consumption.

Yim's an American, so he knows what a stupid statement it is to advocate going to a pound for free dog meat.
Logged

yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,352


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #120 on: November 17, 2014, 09:48:15 PM »

It's interesting the value we place on animals and the difference. In general, people would not think twice about eating beef, chicken, turkey(and most people, pork as well), but when it comes to other animals, such as dogs, cats, horses, people refuse to eat them and find it despeciable, even though there is no difference(beisdes flavour, of course) between killing a dog for food and killing a turkey to eat.

There is no difference, it depends on what culture you're raised in and in what context.  I have eaten dog, cat, rat, and horse because I was in places where it's the norm.  There's a difference in going to a market in China to pick up dog meat (the dog being raised specifically for meat) or going to a pound in Boston, MA and ask the animal welfare officer if you can get a dog for dinner tonight.  Different cultures have different values when it comes to animals and consumption.

Yim's an American, so he knows what a stupid statement it is to advocate going to a pound for free dog meat.

Well, it's just a point I was making.

If all animals are clean except for what they believe to be unclean, then people obviously have standards that they'll eat and not eat.  If one things eating a dog, cat, or horse is disgusting (or unclean), those animals via the scripture should be unclean to them.

For me, pigs/hogs are this way (as are dogs, cats, and horses).  If you've never seen a pig farm, you'll know what I mean when you see it. (or a hog in the wild).  Any animal for me that purposely eats feces would be unclean (pig, dog, rabbit, catfish, crab, lobster).   Unclean in my own preference.  These things would be biblically unclean to me. 

Should the church over-rule peoples dietary preferences and biblical concern when they believe something to be unclean?

Also, though sarcastic, it is true that a $15 neuter fee will get you a 100+ pound dog from a pound around here.  I'm sure it could yield 20+ pounds of meat.  If it is clean to you, I'm sure you can find delicious recipes online.

Hogs that we shoot/butcher makes fantastic dog food.  If you clean a good size one and have a meat grinder, flour, and a bit of corn meal, you can make a year's supply of dog food. Smiley

(BTW for those who don't know, I live on a farm/land. Dealing with cleaning animals, animals being born, disposing of carcasses, butchering meat, shooting wild hogs and other pesty critters - is just common place.  I apologize if anybody is sensitive to this.)
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,805


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #121 on: November 17, 2014, 10:07:52 PM »

Do you keep Jewish dietary laws for yourself or because you want to follow the OT?
Logged

yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,352


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #122 on: November 17, 2014, 10:17:45 PM »

Do you keep Jewish dietary laws for yourself or because you want to follow the OT?

"Sort of".   I keep them in a sense for two reasons.   First, because I personally believe the animals (unclean as described in the OT) are pretty gross and live in disgusting conditions.  Secondly, I do it for the Love of God even though it's not necessary for salvation in any way. 

(I guess in the same way a monk becomes a monastic for the love of God, but it's not necessary for salvation).

It's like enjoying the way that Christ ate (I know, the palette is different).  Biblically I think it's supported pretty well, but I do sometimes wind up in situations where I do not want to cause offense and eat these things.   Hopefully that makes sense.

Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,805


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #123 on: November 17, 2014, 10:27:00 PM »

Do you keep Jewish dietary laws for yourself or because you want to follow the OT?

"Sort of".   I keep them in a sense for two reasons.   First, because I personally believe the animals (unclean as described in the OT) are pretty gross and live in disgusting conditions.  Secondly, I do it for the Love of God even though it's not necessary for salvation in any way. 

(I guess in the same way a monk becomes a monastic for the love of God, but it's not necessary for salvation).

It's like enjoying the way that Christ ate (I know, the palette is different).  Biblically I think it's supported pretty well, but I do sometimes wind up in situations where I do not want to cause offense and eat these things.   Hopefully that makes sense.

It makes some sense.  I disagree with you on the disgusting living conditions.  That is completely up to the farmer.
Logged

Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.148 seconds with 61 queries.