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Author Topic: Wrestling with literalism  (Read 4827 times) Average Rating: 0
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minasoliman
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« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2011, 01:41:54 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

Wow, way to stereotype southerners...
I think he thinks we think that way.  Tongue

All I know about what you gentlemen think, is posted above. I'm surprised that neither of you seem to have heard the stereotype I laid out above, though? It is tossed around quite a bit in the current cultural scene. My grand parents are from Texas and Florida so I have nothing against the South.

I know about the stereotype, but I also am smart enough to know that such thoughts don't exist solely in the South.  I'm sure many have met people in undergrad that can give us an idea of the demographics of people's beliefs.  I remember many in Long Island (Muslims and Christians) who were Old Earth/Young Earth Creationists.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 01:43:32 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2011, 01:44:45 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

Wow, way to stereotype southerners...
I think he thinks we think that way.  Tongue

All I know about what you gentlemen think, is posted above. I'm surprised that neither of you seem to have heard the stereotype I laid out above, though? It is tossed around quite a bit in the current cultural scene. My grand parents are from Texas and Florida so I have nothing against the South.

I know about the stereotype, but I also am smart enough to know that such thoughts don't exist solely in the South.  I'm sure many have met people in undergrad that can give us an idea of the demographics of people's beliefs.  I remember many in Long Island (Muslims and Christians) who were Old Earth/Young Earth Creationists.

Well we can agree there. Plus I know you're smart enough to know thats not what I was saying.
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« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2011, 01:45:54 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

Wow, way to stereotype southerners...
I think he thinks we think that way.  Tongue

All I know about what you gentlemen think, is posted above. I'm surprised that neither of you seem to have heard the stereotype I laid out above, though? It is tossed around quite a bit in the current cultural scene. My grand parents are from Texas and Florida so I have nothing against the South.

I know, I was just kidding. :p
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« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2011, 01:47:35 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

thank you! Creationists usually are immediately stereotyped as being anti-science, which is just absurd. i've never met anyone who's actually anti-science.

Most of the Young Earth Creationists Ive met hate science, like to the point they think its evil. Those people drive me insane. O.o
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« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2011, 01:49:57 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

thank you! Creationists usually are immediately stereotyped as being anti-science, which is just absurd. i've never met anyone who's actually anti-science.

Most of the Young Earth Creationists Ive met hate science, like to the point they think its evil. Those people drive me insane. O.o

I've never met anyone who hates science. They just don't like that for the large majority science starts with the precedence that there is no God, which is evil.
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« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2011, 01:54:51 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

thank you! Creationists usually are immediately stereotyped as being anti-science, which is just absurd. i've never met anyone who's actually anti-science.

Most of the Young Earth Creationists Ive met hate science, like to the point they think its evil. Those people drive me insane. O.o

I've never met anyone who hates science. They just don't like that for the large majority science starts with the precedence that there is no God, which is evil.

These people told me what Im majoring in (Evolutionary Biology) is a sin. They also think that everything has to revolve around the earth, Im not kidding.

I'm not one to judge if you dont believe in evolution like I do, but there is a line that borders crazy, like saying the sun revolves around the earth, and the earth is flat, and that scientists are going to hell. Those people drive me insane!!
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« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2011, 02:09:00 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

thank you! Creationists usually are immediately stereotyped as being anti-science, which is just absurd. i've never met anyone who's actually anti-science.

Most of the Young Earth Creationists Ive met hate science, like to the point they think its evil. Those people drive me insane. O.o

I've never met anyone who hates science. They just don't like that for the large majority science starts with the precedence that there is no God, which is evil.

These people told me what Im majoring in (Evolutionary Biology) is a sin. They also think that everything has to revolve around the earth, Im not kidding.

I'm not one to judge if you dont believe in evolution like I do, but there is a line that borders crazy, like saying the sun revolves around the earth, and the earth is flat, and that scientists are going to hell. Those people drive me insane!!

Haha woooow. Now thats enough to drive anyone insane. Its hard to argue against something that everyone can see with their eyes haha. Good luck with that degree too! I dropped out halfway through my Biology BS.
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« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2011, 02:29:00 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

thank you! Creationists usually are immediately stereotyped as being anti-science, which is just absurd. i've never met anyone who's actually anti-science.

Most of the Young Earth Creationists Ive met hate science, like to the point they think its evil. Those people drive me insane. O.o

I've never met anyone who hates science. They just don't like that for the large majority science starts with the precedence that there is no God, which is evil.

These people told me what Im majoring in (Evolutionary Biology) is a sin. They also think that everything has to revolve around the earth, Im not kidding.

I'm not one to judge if you dont believe in evolution like I do, but there is a line that borders crazy, like saying the sun revolves around the earth, and the earth is flat, and that scientists are going to hell. Those people drive me insane!!

that doesnt make them anti-science, it means they have different ideas about science than you, be they right or wrong. i wouldnt be thrilled if i found out one of my children were to major in evolutionary biology ...
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minasoliman
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« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2011, 03:07:33 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

thank you! Creationists usually are immediately stereotyped as being anti-science, which is just absurd. i've never met anyone who's actually anti-science.

Most of the Young Earth Creationists Ive met hate science, like to the point they think its evil. Those people drive me insane. O.o

I've never met anyone who hates science. They just don't like that for the large majority science starts with the precedence that there is no God, which is evil.

These people told me what Im majoring in (Evolutionary Biology) is a sin. They also think that everything has to revolve around the earth, Im not kidding.

I'm not one to judge if you dont believe in evolution like I do, but there is a line that borders crazy, like saying the sun revolves around the earth, and the earth is flat, and that scientists are going to hell. Those people drive me insane!!

Whenever you meet people like that, tell them that you are studying for the glory of God, that you hope one day your sacrifices in your studies may help achieve something for God's creation.
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« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2011, 03:48:33 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

thank you! Creationists usually are immediately stereotyped as being anti-science, which is just absurd. i've never met anyone who's actually anti-science.

Most of the Young Earth Creationists Ive met hate science, like to the point they think its evil. Those people drive me insane. O.o

I've never met anyone who hates science. They just don't like that for the large majority science starts with the precedence that there is no God, which is evil.

These people told me what Im majoring in (Evolutionary Biology) is a sin. They also think that everything has to revolve around the earth, Im not kidding.

I'm not one to judge if you dont believe in evolution like I do, but there is a line that borders crazy, like saying the sun revolves around the earth, and the earth is flat, and that scientists are going to hell. Those people drive me insane!!

that doesnt make them anti-science, it means they have different ideas about science than you, be they right or wrong. i wouldnt be thrilled if i found out one of my children were to major in evolutionary biology ...

So you'd tell youre kid they would go to hell for it? That would be anti-science, duh.

I am studying science to learn more about how God made our wonferful world, Im sorry that you dont like to be educated. :p
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« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2011, 03:49:40 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

thank you! Creationists usually are immediately stereotyped as being anti-science, which is just absurd. i've never met anyone who's actually anti-science.

Most of the Young Earth Creationists Ive met hate science, like to the point they think its evil. Those people drive me insane. O.o

I've never met anyone who hates science. They just don't like that for the large majority science starts with the precedence that there is no God, which is evil.

These people told me what Im majoring in (Evolutionary Biology) is a sin. They also think that everything has to revolve around the earth, Im not kidding.

I'm not one to judge if you dont believe in evolution like I do, but there is a line that borders crazy, like saying the sun revolves around the earth, and the earth is flat, and that scientists are going to hell. Those people drive me insane!!

Whenever you meet people like that, tell them that you are studying for the glory of God, that you hope one day your sacrifices in your studies may help achieve something for God's creation.

Exactly! I think science is helping to better understand God. Science in itself is not evil, its very neutral, but you can use it for good. Science and religion are really two ways of describing the same thing in most incidents.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 03:51:53 PM by celticfan1888 » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2011, 04:09:47 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

thank you! Creationists usually are immediately stereotyped as being anti-science, which is just absurd. i've never met anyone who's actually anti-science.

Most of the Young Earth Creationists Ive met hate science, like to the point they think its evil. Those people drive me insane. O.o

I've never met anyone who hates science. They just don't like that for the large majority science starts with the precedence that there is no God, which is evil.

These people told me what Im majoring in (Evolutionary Biology) is a sin. They also think that everything has to revolve around the earth, Im not kidding.

I'm not one to judge if you dont believe in evolution like I do, but there is a line that borders crazy, like saying the sun revolves around the earth, and the earth is flat, and that scientists are going to hell. Those people drive me insane!!

that doesnt make them anti-science, it means they have different ideas about science than you, be they right or wrong. i wouldnt be thrilled if i found out one of my children were to major in evolutionary biology ...

So you'd tell youre kid they would go to hell for it? That would be anti-science, duh.

I am studying science to learn more about how God made our wonferful world, Im sorry that you dont like to be educated. :p

i wouldnt say theyre going to Hell, not my call. but i would tell them theyre going down a wrong path.

but perhaps such people are just anti-evolution. there is science outside of evolution, shocking though that may be.
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« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2011, 04:13:20 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

thank you! Creationists usually are immediately stereotyped as being anti-science, which is just absurd. i've never met anyone who's actually anti-science.

Most of the Young Earth Creationists Ive met hate science, like to the point they think its evil. Those people drive me insane. O.o

I've never met anyone who hates science. They just don't like that for the large majority science starts with the precedence that there is no God, which is evil.

These people told me what Im majoring in (Evolutionary Biology) is a sin. They also think that everything has to revolve around the earth, Im not kidding.

I'm not one to judge if you dont believe in evolution like I do, but there is a line that borders crazy, like saying the sun revolves around the earth, and the earth is flat, and that scientists are going to hell. Those people drive me insane!!

that doesnt make them anti-science, it means they have different ideas about science than you, be they right or wrong. i wouldnt be thrilled if i found out one of my children were to major in evolutionary biology ...

So you'd tell youre kid they would go to hell for it? That would be anti-science, duh.

I am studying science to learn more about how God made our wonferful world, Im sorry that you dont like to be educated. :p

i wouldnt say theyre going to Hell, not my call. but i would tell them theyre going down a wrong path.

but perhaps such people are just anti-evolution. there is science outside of evolution, shocking though that may be.

I believe people who are anti-evolution are just ignoring reality. I dont know how on earth evolutionary study would lead you down the wrong path. I think ignoring factual evidence leads you down the wrong path, to be honest. I think evolutionary science, as well as many other sciences, helps to better understand God and the way he created life.

Really, you didnt read the earth being flat part did you? Or how about the Sun revolving around earth? I guess youre okay with believing that bologna too? Please read the entirety of what I say.
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« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2011, 06:03:14 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical?

No, it can't be, because an allegory is a story which didn't really happen but stands for something else. If something is literally true, that excludes it from being allegorical, but it can be both literally true and have a deeper meaning (or several) hiding under that literal truth.
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« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2011, 07:41:48 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical?

No, it can't be, because an allegory is a story which didn't really happen but stands for something else. If something is literally true, that excludes it from being allegorical, but it can be both literally true and have a deeper meaning (or several) hiding under that literal truth.

Pardon me, I had never come across anything stating it must specifically be fictional in order to be allegorical. My intention was to say it can be the true account of creation and still have lessons and meanings other than a narrative.
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« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2011, 07:44:24 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical?

No, it can't be, because an allegory is a story which didn't really happen but stands for something else. If something is literally true, that excludes it from being allegorical, but it can be both literally true and have a deeper meaning (or several) hiding under that literal truth.

Pardon me, I had never come across anything stating it must specifically be fictional in order to be allegorical. My intention was to say it can be the true account of creation and still have lessons and meanings other than a narrative.

But, it can also just be an allegory.
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« Reply #61 on: May 10, 2011, 07:50:50 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

thank you! Creationists usually are immediately stereotyped as being anti-science, which is just absurd. i've never met anyone who's actually anti-science.

Most of the Young Earth Creationists Ive met hate science, like to the point they think its evil. Those people drive me insane. O.o

I've never met anyone who hates science. They just don't like that for the large majority science starts with the precedence that there is no God, which is evil.

These people told me what Im majoring in (Evolutionary Biology) is a sin. They also think that everything has to revolve around the earth, Im not kidding.

I'm not one to judge if you dont believe in evolution like I do, but there is a line that borders crazy, like saying the sun revolves around the earth, and the earth is flat, and that scientists are going to hell. Those people drive me insane!!

that doesnt make them anti-science, it means they have different ideas about science than you, be they right or wrong. i wouldnt be thrilled if i found out one of my children were to major in evolutionary biology ...

So you'd tell youre kid they would go to hell for it? That would be anti-science, duh.

I am studying science to learn more about how God made our wonferful world, Im sorry that you dont like to be educated. :p

i wouldnt say theyre going to Hell, not my call. but i would tell them theyre going down a wrong path.

but perhaps such people are just anti-evolution. there is science outside of evolution, shocking though that may be.

I believe people who are anti-evolution are just ignoring reality. I dont know how on earth evolutionary study would lead you down the wrong path. I think ignoring factual evidence leads you down the wrong path, to be honest. I think evolutionary science, as well as many other sciences, helps to better understand God and the way he created life.

Really, you didnt read the earth being flat part did you? Or how about the Sun revolving around earth? I guess youre okay with believing that bologna too? Please read the entirety of what I say.

So people who don't agree with you are ignorant because they refuse to accept the premises you accept? Show me your facts and I'll show you a scientist who cares more about advancing his agenda then supplying the truth. You act as though researching science automatically makes one unbiased. Have you heard of anthropogenic global warming? How can one truly research science without accepting the God who 'wrote' those laws and relationships? You think your godless professor don't have an agenda? You don't think they want to make sure you leave doubting God?  
And you don't know how evolution would lead you down the wrong path? Read Hitler or Marx or even some Nietzsche.
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« Reply #62 on: May 10, 2011, 07:57:59 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

thank you! Creationists usually are immediately stereotyped as being anti-science, which is just absurd. i've never met anyone who's actually anti-science.

Most of the Young Earth Creationists Ive met hate science, like to the point they think its evil. Those people drive me insane. O.o

I've never met anyone who hates science. They just don't like that for the large majority science starts with the precedence that there is no God, which is evil.

These people told me what Im majoring in (Evolutionary Biology) is a sin. They also think that everything has to revolve around the earth, Im not kidding.

I'm not one to judge if you dont believe in evolution like I do, but there is a line that borders crazy, like saying the sun revolves around the earth, and the earth is flat, and that scientists are going to hell. Those people drive me insane!!

that doesnt make them anti-science, it means they have different ideas about science than you, be they right or wrong. i wouldnt be thrilled if i found out one of my children were to major in evolutionary biology ...

So you'd tell youre kid they would go to hell for it? That would be anti-science, duh.

I am studying science to learn more about how God made our wonferful world, Im sorry that you dont like to be educated. :p

i wouldnt say theyre going to Hell, not my call. but i would tell them theyre going down a wrong path.

but perhaps such people are just anti-evolution. there is science outside of evolution, shocking though that may be.

I believe people who are anti-evolution are just ignoring reality. I dont know how on earth evolutionary study would lead you down the wrong path. I think ignoring factual evidence leads you down the wrong path, to be honest. I think evolutionary science, as well as many other sciences, helps to better understand God and the way he created life.

Really, you didnt read the earth being flat part did you? Or how about the Sun revolving around earth? I guess youre okay with believing that bologna too? Please read the entirety of what I say.

So people who don't agree with you are ignorant because they refuse to accept the premises you accept? Show me your facts and I'll show you a scientist who cares more about advancing his agenda then supplying the truth. You act as though researching science automatically makes one unbiased. Have you heard of anthropogenic global warming? How can one truly research science without accepting the God who 'wrote' those laws and relationships? You think your godless professor don't have an agenda? You don't think they want to make sure you leave doubting God? 
And you don't know how evolution would lead you down the wrong path? Read Hitler or Marx or even some Nietzsche.

I'll bring you on a fossil dig and it'll make a lot more sense to you.

Im not saying there are not bad scientists, but science in its purist form is not evil. A good scientist wouldnt say God is definitively not real, as there is no proof saying he is not.

Wow, some bad people that believed in evolution, that proves nothing. I can name some bad christians as well, does that mean christianity is wrong?

You obviously dont know a bloody thing about evolutionary science if you thinks it anything more or less than neutral science. I study evolution to better understand how God does things, if you dont appreciate and/or see the beautiful way God made it work, than Im sorry.

Im not saying you have to believe in evolution, but dont you dare tell me Im going down the wrong path. You insult me saying that.
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« Reply #63 on: May 10, 2011, 08:03:28 PM »

i dont understand why evolutionists on this forum can't manage to critique Creationists without sarcasm, insults, and polemics.
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« Reply #64 on: May 10, 2011, 08:05:13 PM »

i dont understand why evolutionists on this forum can't manage to critique Creationists without sarcasm, insults, and polemics.

Because the Creationists use all of those to us...
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« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2011, 08:08:53 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

thank you! Creationists usually are immediately stereotyped as being anti-science, which is just absurd. i've never met anyone who's actually anti-science.

Most of the Young Earth Creationists Ive met hate science, like to the point they think its evil. Those people drive me insane. O.o

I've never met anyone who hates science. They just don't like that for the large majority science starts with the precedence that there is no God, which is evil.

These people told me what Im majoring in (Evolutionary Biology) is a sin. They also think that everything has to revolve around the earth, Im not kidding.

I'm not one to judge if you dont believe in evolution like I do, but there is a line that borders crazy, like saying the sun revolves around the earth, and the earth is flat, and that scientists are going to hell. Those people drive me insane!!

that doesnt make them anti-science, it means they have different ideas about science than you, be they right or wrong. i wouldnt be thrilled if i found out one of my children were to major in evolutionary biology ...

So you'd tell youre kid they would go to hell for it? That would be anti-science, duh.

I am studying science to learn more about how God made our wonferful world, Im sorry that you dont like to be educated. :p

i wouldnt say theyre going to Hell, not my call. but i would tell them theyre going down a wrong path.

but perhaps such people are just anti-evolution. there is science outside of evolution, shocking though that may be.

I believe people who are anti-evolution are just ignoring reality. I dont know how on earth evolutionary study would lead you down the wrong path. I think ignoring factual evidence leads you down the wrong path, to be honest. I think evolutionary science, as well as many other sciences, helps to better understand God and the way he created life.

Really, you didnt read the earth being flat part did you? Or how about the Sun revolving around earth? I guess youre okay with believing that bologna too? Please read the entirety of what I say.

So people who don't agree with you are ignorant because they refuse to accept the premises you accept? Show me your facts and I'll show you a scientist who cares more about advancing his agenda then supplying the truth. You act as though researching science automatically makes one unbiased. Have you heard of anthropogenic global warming? How can one truly research science without accepting the God who 'wrote' those laws and relationships? You think your godless professor don't have an agenda? You don't think they want to make sure you leave doubting God?  
And you don't know how evolution would lead you down the wrong path? Read Hitler or Marx or even some Nietzsche.

Im not saying there are not bad scientists, but science in its purist form is not evil.

Wow, some bad people that believed in evolution, that proves nothing. I can name some bad christians as well, does that mean christianity is wrong?

You obviously dont know a bloody thing about evolutionary science if you thinks it anything more or less than neutral science. I study evolution to better understand how God does things, if you dont appreciate and/or see the beautiful way God made it work, than Im sorry.

You missed the point. You said "I dont know how on earth evolutionary study would lead you down the wrong path." I supplied three examples of people being led down the wrong path due to evolutionary theory and playing it out to it's natural conclusions.
I don't claim to know much about it, but it's hilarious that you think it is 100% neutral. I do see beauty in God's work, I just don't think I have all the answers for it. And no one ever said studying science is evil. It can be used for evil just like every other good thing. Its the mindset that you seem to promote that jckstraw and myself take issue with. That just because a text book says its true, you believe it.
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« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2011, 08:12:44 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical? Don't let others convince you that you can't be a young earth, genesis narrative believer without being a science hating, gun toting, southerner.

thank you! Creationists usually are immediately stereotyped as being anti-science, which is just absurd. i've never met anyone who's actually anti-science.

Most of the Young Earth Creationists Ive met hate science, like to the point they think its evil. Those people drive me insane. O.o

I've never met anyone who hates science. They just don't like that for the large majority science starts with the precedence that there is no God, which is evil.

These people told me what Im majoring in (Evolutionary Biology) is a sin. They also think that everything has to revolve around the earth, Im not kidding.

I'm not one to judge if you dont believe in evolution like I do, but there is a line that borders crazy, like saying the sun revolves around the earth, and the earth is flat, and that scientists are going to hell. Those people drive me insane!!

that doesnt make them anti-science, it means they have different ideas about science than you, be they right or wrong. i wouldnt be thrilled if i found out one of my children were to major in evolutionary biology ...

So you'd tell youre kid they would go to hell for it? That would be anti-science, duh.

I am studying science to learn more about how God made our wonferful world, Im sorry that you dont like to be educated. :p

i wouldnt say theyre going to Hell, not my call. but i would tell them theyre going down a wrong path.

but perhaps such people are just anti-evolution. there is science outside of evolution, shocking though that may be.

I believe people who are anti-evolution are just ignoring reality. I dont know how on earth evolutionary study would lead you down the wrong path. I think ignoring factual evidence leads you down the wrong path, to be honest. I think evolutionary science, as well as many other sciences, helps to better understand God and the way he created life.

Really, you didnt read the earth being flat part did you? Or how about the Sun revolving around earth? I guess youre okay with believing that bologna too? Please read the entirety of what I say.

So people who don't agree with you are ignorant because they refuse to accept the premises you accept? Show me your facts and I'll show you a scientist who cares more about advancing his agenda then supplying the truth. You act as though researching science automatically makes one unbiased. Have you heard of anthropogenic global warming? How can one truly research science without accepting the God who 'wrote' those laws and relationships? You think your godless professor don't have an agenda? You don't think they want to make sure you leave doubting God? 
And you don't know how evolution would lead you down the wrong path? Read Hitler or Marx or even some Nietzsche.

Im not saying there are not bad scientists, but science in its purist form is not evil.

Wow, some bad people that believed in evolution, that proves nothing. I can name some bad christians as well, does that mean christianity is wrong?

You obviously dont know a bloody thing about evolutionary science if you thinks it anything more or less than neutral science. I study evolution to better understand how God does things, if you dont appreciate and/or see the beautiful way God made it work, than Im sorry.

You missed the point. You said "I dont know how on earth evolutionary study would lead you down the wrong path." I supplied three examples of people being led down the wrong path due to evolutionary theory and playing it out to it's natural conclusions.
I don't claim to know much about it, but it's hilarious that you think it is 100% neutral. I do see beauty in God's work, I just don't think I have all the answers for it. And no one ever said studying science is evil. It can be used for evil just like every other good thing. Its the mindset that you seem to promote that jckstraw and myself take issue with. That just because a text book says its true, you believe it.

I can give an evil example of christians as well, saying these people believed in evolution and were bad is a silly argument.

Evolution is neutral, alot of the professors who teach it are not. But evolution is just nature man, get over it.

Uhm, Ive actually done my own research, and go out to learn things in the field...unlike you who probably does nothing all day but critisize things you know nothing about.

I have some different views on evolution in regards to some aspects of it. Dont you dare, in your life ever try to say I just listen to what my professors say and not research it on my own.

Im sorry to tell you buddy Im not an idiot, I know my crap.
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« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2011, 08:15:24 PM »


Wow, sorry. I had no idea how fired up you were; I didn't think we were there. Let's end this before it devolves even more.
Again I apologize.
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« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2011, 08:16:44 PM »

I should have known that an OP asking about literal vs. non-literal interpretations of the Bible would end in an evolution vs. evilution debate... it was only a matter of time  police
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« Reply #69 on: May 10, 2011, 08:18:02 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical?

No, it can't be, because an allegory is a story which didn't really happen but stands for something else. If something is literally true, that excludes it from being allegorical, but it can be both literally true and have a deeper meaning (or several) hiding under that literal truth.

Pardon me, I had never come across anything stating it must specifically be fictional in order to be allegorical. My intention was to say it can be the true account of creation and still have lessons and meanings other than a narrative.

I knew what you meant and it is a point well made -- I was just being a stickler about the meaning of the word "allegory", as Asteriktos was confused earlier in the thread about how the anti-allegorical School of Antioch was so ready to draw out "deeper" or "hidden" meanings from the scriptural text.

I apologise for causing any offence.
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« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2011, 08:19:24 PM »


Wow, sorry. I had no idea how fired up you were; I didn't think we were there. Let's end this before it devolves even more.
Again I apologize.

I apologize if I insulted you, I didnt mean to, I just got fired up.

I dont care if you dont agree with evolution, thats your free choice, but please dont say that it's evil just because some people use it for such purposes.

I have done a lot of research in my few years on this earth, and I consider evolution a beautiful work of God.


Once again, I apologize for offending you.
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« Reply #71 on: May 10, 2011, 08:20:00 PM »

Due to my Protestant upbringings, I have trouble wrestling with things in the Bible as allegorical. Where exactly is the line drawn? Am I at fault, on a scientific basis, to take everything in the Genesis account literally? How does one pick and choose what is real and what is allegory?

Can't it be both literal and allegorical?

No, it can't be, because an allegory is a story which didn't really happen but stands for something else. If something is literally true, that excludes it from being allegorical, but it can be both literally true and have a deeper meaning (or several) hiding under that literal truth.

Pardon me, I had never come across anything stating it must specifically be fictional in order to be allegorical. My intention was to say it can be the true account of creation and still have lessons and meanings other than a narrative.

I knew what you meant and it is a point well made -- I was just being a stickler about the meaning of the word "allegory", as Asteriktos was confused earlier in the thread about how the anti-allegorical School of Antioch was so ready to draw out "deeper" or "hidden" meanings from the scriptural text.

I apologise for causing any offence.

Oh no, no offence. I'd like to know for the future anyway!  
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« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2011, 08:21:47 PM »


Wow, sorry. I had no idea how fired up you were; I didn't think we were there. Let's end this before it devolves even more.
Again I apologize.

I apologize if I insulted you, I didnt mean to, I just got fired up.

I dont care if you dont agree with evolution, thats your free choice, but please dont say that it's evil just because some people use it for such purposes.

I have done a lot of research in my few years on this earth, and I consider evolution a beautiful work of God.


Once again, I apologize for offending you.

No offence my friend  Smiley
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« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2011, 08:27:36 PM »


Wow, sorry. I had no idea how fired up you were; I didn't think we were there. Let's end this before it devolves even more.
Again I apologize.

I apologize if I insulted you, I didnt mean to, I just got fired up.

I dont care if you dont agree with evolution, thats your free choice, but please dont say that it's evil just because some people use it for such purposes.

I have done a lot of research in my few years on this earth, and I consider evolution a beautiful work of God.


Once again, I apologize for offending you.

No offence my friend  Smiley

 Smiley
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« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2011, 03:26:39 PM »

We've had some time to cool down. So, let me pose a few questions to the evolutionists:

At what point did humanity start? If we evolved from other forms of life when was the cut off that humans became, well, human? (Since we can clearly see from scripture that a human is a being different and above that of an animal.)
Was Adam a homosapien? Were his parents not humans but then he tipped the scales and thus was the first human? Did other humanoids live in the garden before Adam? Could the not-fully-humans sin? Or did they live sinless before the first sin with Eve?
Are Adam's parent's (he must have biological parents if he evolved) delt with like animals in concern to questions of salvation?
Was Eve indeed formed from Adam's rib or is that a metaphor? What did Adam have that made him human, the first human, that the beings before him did not have?
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« Reply #75 on: May 14, 2011, 01:44:47 AM »

At what point did humanity start? If we evolved from other forms of life when was the cut off that humans became, well, human? When we obtained a human soul, when God knew his creation was perfect.

Was Adam a homosapien? He had to be human, yes.

Were his parents not humans but then he tipped the scales and thus was the first human? That would be the only way.

Did other humanoids live in the garden before Adam? Maybe, maybe not.

Could the not-fully-humans sin? Or did they live sinless before the first sin with Eve? That's a question science cant answer.

Are Adam's parent's delt with like animals in concern to questions of salvation? Like animals if they were indeed primative ape.

Was Eve indeed formed from Adam's rib or is that a metaphor? It could be, but it couldve also been literal.

What did Adam have that made him human, the first human, that the beings before him did not have? A Human Soul

These answers are from the view point that humans evolved from apes and became fully human due to God's devine plan, and obtaining souls from God, although their body is from biological means. You could say that Adam being made from dust is representing humans being of the earth.

Another viewpoint is saying that while all creatures of their earth had a common ancestor through evolutionary means, man came about as a seperate "hands on" creation by God, as we were his most important creation. That God made Adam from literal dust and made Eve from the literal rib of Adam when the Earth was ready for man's arrival, but evolution among animals existed.

Also, you could argue that Adam and Eve were not real characters and the whole genesis story is an allegory. As Adam in Hebrew means "mankind" and Eve (which is the anglicanized version of the Hebrew name Hawwa) means "living one" it could indeed be considered that Adam and Eve were two characters created to represent a story of early humanity in general and not two literal people.
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« Reply #76 on: May 14, 2011, 01:50:42 AM »

I ain't no monkey, plain as that.
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« Reply #77 on: May 14, 2011, 02:09:24 AM »

I ain't no monkey, plain as that.

Well you sure as hell act like one.
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« Reply #78 on: May 14, 2011, 02:22:25 AM »

I ain't no monkey, plain as that.

Well you sure as hell act like one.


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« Reply #79 on: May 14, 2011, 02:34:29 AM »


Um...lol
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« Reply #80 on: May 14, 2011, 10:40:24 AM »

Picture too small, I can barely see it...
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« Reply #81 on: May 14, 2011, 10:41:00 AM »

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« Reply #82 on: May 14, 2011, 10:43:40 AM »

I ain't no monkey, plain as that.

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« Reply #83 on: May 14, 2011, 12:50:03 PM »

We've had some time to cool down. So, let me pose a few questions to the evolutionists:

At what point did humanity start? If we evolved from other forms of life when was the cut off that humans became, well, human? (Since we can clearly see from scripture that a human is a being different and above that of an animal.)
Was Adam a homosapien? Were his parents not humans but then he tipped the scales and thus was the first human? Did other humanoids live in the garden before Adam? Could the not-fully-humans sin? Or did they live sinless before the first sin with Eve?
Are Adam's parent's (he must have biological parents if he evolved) delt with like animals in concern to questions of salvation?
Was Eve indeed formed from Adam's rib or is that a metaphor? What did Adam have that made him human, the first human, that the beings before him did not have?

According to Scripture, humanity and animals share qualities that make them both made from the dust of the earth.  The difference is "God breathed" directly into us.  We received the Image as part of our nature, and that's when this animal body became "human."

Everything else is mere vain speculation.  The church fathers believed that Adam and Eve were taken in their "innocence" and "childish" times, into the Paradise of Joy.  Whether other humanoids lived at the time or not doesn't matter.  Maybe Adam and Eve represented two people who can bring back hope that all other humanity can share, or maybe a group of humans were in Paradise, but as soon as one falls, all falls.  Whatever the case may be, they were given some commandment, and they disobeyed it, seeking after things they were not ready to have yet in their immaturity.

Now, if the first 300 years worth of Church fathers can believe that humanity can copulate with angels, then I don't see the problem with thinking that perhaps Adam and Eve's children did not copulate with each other to give forth the offspring there is today.  The question is about salvation.  What is necessary for our salvation?  If we understand that there was a Fall, and that Christ came to redeem us from the Fall and even more now (to receive what Adam and Eve were not ready to receive at the time), then for sure everything else seems superfluous.  I understand the importance of the Fall in the theology of the Church, and I understand the importance of genealogy, all of which I feel can still be kept without violating the science of evolution.  Adam and Eve could be the prime example of humanity God chose, but he blew it.

Now, your final question:  the rib.  I believe this was metaphor.  I see a pattern that Church Fathers find this part of the story a prophecy or a shadow to the formation of the Church out of the side of Christ at the Cross (when the Centurion stabbed Christ, and water and blood gushed into the floor, that's when the Church was born).  This metaphor is a very powerful example of seeing the New Testament in the Old, an important part of Christian teaching when looking at the OT, and it can't be done unless one really believes in an Alexandrian exegetical way of looking at the OT, rather than the mere face value of it, which borders on "letter of the law" ideas rather than the "spirit of the law."  Now, I'm not going to stand and pretend the Church fathers didn't take this particular part of the story literally (although I have reservations about the word "rib" because the original verse seems to just say "side"), but I'm going to contend they had no other reason not to at the time, not because it was a necessary dogma to believe in.  But the spirit of this story was Christ and the Church, and that's what matters.  That's what makes this story "true" in that deep spiritual sense.

I really like this quote by CS Lewis I read off of Dr. Francis Collin's book:

Here's a quote I read from Francis Collin's book, "The Language of God".  I must admit though, I haven't read C.S. Lewis' book where he got this from:

Quote
For long centuries, God perfected the animal form which was to become the vehicle of humanity and the image of Himself. he gave it hands whose thumb could be applied to each of the fingers, and jaws and teeth and throat capable of articulation, and a brain sufficiently complex to execute all of the material motions whereby rational thought is incarnated. The creature may have existed in this state for ages before it became man: it may even have been clever enough to make things which a modern archaeologist would accept as proof of its humanity. But it was only an animal because all its physical and psychical processes were directed to purely material and natural ends. Then, in the fullness of time, God caused to descend upon this organism, both on its psychology and physiology, a new kind of consciousness which could say "I" and "me," which could look upon itself as an object, which knew God, which could make judgments of truth, beauty and goodness, and which was so far above time that it could perceive time flowing past.... We do not know how many of these creatures God made, nor how long they continued in the Paradisal state. But sooner or later they fell. Someone or something whispered that they could become as gods.... They wanted some corner in this universe of which they could say to God, "This is our business, not yours." But there is no such corner. They wanted to be nouns, but they were, and eternally must be, mere adjectives. We have no idea in what particular act, or series of acts, the self-contradictory, impossible wish found expression. For all I can see, it might have concerned the literal eating of a fruit, the the question is of no consequence. (C.S. Lewis, Problem of Pain, 68-71)

In some way, C.S. Lewis preserves the idea of "The Fall."  I think this is a very relevant quote, and something that aided me in my belief.

When the Church fathers were fighting against the Apollinarian heresy, they contended with Apollinarius that he did not allow salvation for humanity, rather salvation only for the animals.  Food for thought.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 12:55:28 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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Ask w/ tears, seek w/ obedience, knock w/ patience


« Reply #84 on: May 16, 2011, 11:20:29 AM »

Really interesting posts mina and celticfan. I'm just now looking at them and will have to unpack them a bit. Thank you though.
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Authentic zeal is not directed towards anything but union in Christ, or against anything but our own fallenness.

"Beardliness is next to Godliness."- Asteriktos
Tags: allegory 
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