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Author Topic: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question  (Read 4146 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2011, 12:31:33 AM »

"The designation "Oriental Orthodox" itself clearly illustrates the ecumenistic tendency to obfuscate essential theological differences with euphemisms. "

I agree.
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« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2011, 12:32:46 AM »

Isn't it, in fact, a good sign, revealing that the two churches share a commitment to avoid false union at all costs?

They don't. Not if you mean the people of the two traditions overall. There are only some on each side who are truly committed to avoiding false union at all costs.
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« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2011, 01:03:21 AM »

Isn't it, in fact, a good sign, revealing that the two churches share a commitment to avoid false union at all costs?

They don't. Not if you mean the people of the two traditions overall. There are only some on each side who are truly committed to avoiding false union at all costs.
And I view those small factions as a healthy part of Orthodoxy, even if they get a bad rap.

Have you ever explicitly outlined your issues with EO Christology in a thread here? I've been looking forward to picking your brain regarding this, you allude to it often.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 01:04:24 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2011, 01:11:29 AM »

Isn't it, in fact, a good sign, revealing that the two churches share a commitment to avoid false union at all costs?

They don't. Not if you mean the people of the two traditions overall. There are only some on each side who are truly committed to avoiding false union at all costs.
And I view those small factions as a healthy part of Orthodoxy, even if they get a bad rap.

Have you ever explicitly outlined your issues with EO Christology in a thread here? I've been looking forward to picking your brain regarding this, you allude to it often.

I sent you a PM. I've discussed this issue in a few threads, but unfortunately I don't really trust the intellectual honesty of some who would likely bombard that thread (interestingly enough from the OO side) with nonsense, so I doubt starting another thread would be all that helpful.
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« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2011, 04:24:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Personally, I would feel comfortable attending Liturgy at an OO temple, but would not receive Sacraments unless I was in situations similar to those previously mentioned and I had the blessing of my spiritual father and bishop.

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Andrew

That is the more perfect definition of Orthodox living, thank you.  If all of us across all jurisdictions prayerfully adjusted to that format instead of reading law books and canons aside from the influence of prayer and the discernment of our spiritual Fathers, the Church perhaps would have less distinctions.  A priest once told me that the laity should wait twenty years before ever even touching a law book or a canon, that they could base their interpretation of not on the letter but the spirit through the wisdom gained in experience actually living Orthodoxy.

As much as I adore reading, and as much as I as an educator promote literacy as a paramount goal, I must admit that the casual reading of Church literature has brought about a lot of sectarianism and schismatics in the past 500 years.  I am not so convinced that literacy always translates into better Christianity, which is why I agree sincerely with the spirit of the above priest's suggestion.  We should read the Gospels and our prayer books, and leave commentaries, canons, and legalities well alone for those whose business God has better suited and entrusted other professionals.

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie
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« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2011, 04:57:46 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Personally, I would feel comfortable attending Liturgy at an OO temple, but would not receive Sacraments unless I was in situations similar to those previously mentioned and I had the blessing of my spiritual father and bishop.

In Christ,
Andrew

That is the more perfect definition of Orthodox living, thank you.  If all of us across all jurisdictions prayerfully adjusted to that format instead of reading law books and canons aside from the influence of prayer and the discernment of our spiritual Fathers, the Church perhaps would have less distinctions.  A priest once told me that the laity should wait twenty years before ever even touching a law book or a canon, that they could base their interpretation of not on the letter but the spirit through the wisdom gained in experience actually living Orthodoxy.

As much as I adore reading, and as much as I as an educator promote literacy as a paramount goal, I must admit that the casual reading of Church literature has brought about a lot of sectarianism and schismatics in the past 500 years.  I am not so convinced that literacy always translates into better Christianity, which is why I agree sincerely with the spirit of the above priest's suggestion.  We should read the Gospels and our prayer books, and leave commentaries, canons, and legalities well alone for those whose business God has better suited and entrusted other professionals.

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie

The importance of "legalities" and "canon law" is being strongly exaggerated here. One can come to the understanding that one should not receive the ordinances of those in other religious traditions while having absolute no knowledge of canon law. Much of this thought is simply derived from ecclesiastical doctrine than canon law.
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« Reply #51 on: May 05, 2011, 05:01:44 PM »

You are assuming that the EO and OO are different traditions. This is not borne out by the practice of the Church over 1500 years.
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« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2011, 03:42:34 AM »

No i wouldn't seek them out to attend, any of the Oriental Orthodox Churches....Though I would like to see us united eventually, and i recognize them As Orthodox , Other than the Armenian  Church....There is a Indian Orthodox Church In Waukegan, on Glen Flora Ave, A former Greek Orthodox Church, Greeks opened a New Bigger Orthodox Church on O'Plain Rd. Between Buckley Rd. and Belvedere Rd...Never was interested to pay a visit to the Indian Orthodox Church Even though I pass by it ,On my Way to New Gracanica Most Holy Mother Of God Monastery..... I watched Indian Orthodox liturgies on u=tube and the other Oriental Churches  I can't get used to the way they hold there services ,or there form of chanting or the way there Clergy vest or the hood 's they wear.....It's just different and I'm not used to it.....For Me I'll stick with The Eastern Orthodox  Way of Doing things..... If there Wasn't a Eastern Orthodox Church Near by ,I still wouldn't Go to them...I would stay in bed sleep late as i can.....  police
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« Reply #53 on: May 06, 2011, 07:31:23 AM »

For a number of years my family lived pretty far from the nearest OO Church and we would attend the local OCA Church. I treasured the time we've spend there and always felt so welcomed. We never communed there because we were able travel to a Coptic Church every few weeks or so and spend the day or weekend with family.

We knew it'd be a temporary situation so we never tried to get permission to receive the Holy Sacraments but probably would've if it weren't possible to attend an OO Church. There never was a thought of "converting". To us, they were Orthodox Russians and we were Orthodox Egyptians albeit from different communions. You can criticize that now, but that's how we thought at the time and I'm very grateful for it.

But I must say after joining this forum, I'm quite hesitant to even enter an EO Church now.
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« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2011, 08:22:57 AM »

But I must say after joining this forum, I'm quite hesitant to even enter an EO Church now.

Interesting. Can you tell us more, please?
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« Reply #55 on: May 06, 2011, 10:49:54 AM »

Not sure what you mean by examples.

Lay communion of members of the other Orthodox community happens very widely.

The trouble exists in this as in Ecumenism.

The Eastern Orthodox church is EITHER the one true church of Jesus Christ, OR it is not.

If it IS the one true church, then the one true church is the only one that should have true transmuted Eucharist.
If it is NOT the one true church, then the Eastern Orthodox church is phony.

By Eastern Orthodox understanding, it is the one true church and all considered in schism and not in communion with the church does not have a valid communion or "grace".

Inter communion does not work because it is pointless and truly against the Canon of the Holy Apostles.

It either IS or IS NOT the one true church with grace.  This is why EO are not in communion with the OO churches.

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« Reply #56 on: May 06, 2011, 11:09:23 AM »

The premises of your argument are proved manifestly false by church history therefore your whole argument collapses.

When the Greek Church of Alexandria was going to enter into union with the Coptic Orthodox Church in the 50's and the Greek Patriarch was going to become a Metropolitan in the united Church there was clearly no acceptance of the view you propose as being Orthodox.

Likewise even during the most severe periods of persecution by the Byzantines the Orthodox always insisted that the sacraments of the Byzantines were real and never baptised, chrismated or ordained any who joined the Church.

So your insistence that grace is not present in the other communion is both false and un-Orthodox.
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« Reply #57 on: May 06, 2011, 11:43:16 AM »

Likewise even during the most severe periods of persecution by the Byzantines the Orthodox always insisted that the sacraments of the Byzantines were real and never baptised, chrismated or ordained any who joined the Church.
Father, I'm curious, do you know where I can read about the history of these persecutions? I apologize if it's a bit off topic.
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« Reply #58 on: May 06, 2011, 11:46:21 AM »

the Orthodox always insisted that the sacraments of the Byzantines were real and never baptised, chrismated or ordained any who joined the Church.

Is it just us or does that apply also to the RCC, Old Catholics etc. groups?
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« Reply #59 on: May 06, 2011, 11:51:35 AM »

But I must say after joining this forum, I'm quite hesitant to even enter an EO Church now.

Interesting. Can you tell us more, please?

Because I now know what many EO really think of us & have no interest in causing scandel to anyone.
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« Reply #60 on: May 06, 2011, 11:59:08 AM »

Bi-'Khristos af-don-f.
the Orthodox always insisted that the sacraments of the Byzantines were real and never baptised, chrismated or ordained any who joined the Church.

Is it just us or does that apply also to the RCC, Old Catholics etc. groups?
For the Copts, despite Mardukm's attempts to finesse around it, just us.
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« Reply #61 on: May 06, 2011, 12:01:32 PM »

Bi-'Khristos af-don-f.
the Orthodox always insisted that the sacraments of the Byzantines were real and never baptised, chrismated or ordained any who joined the Church.

Is it just us or does that apply also to the RCC, Old Catholics etc. groups?
For the Copts, despite Mardukm's attempts to finesse around it, just us.

And what is the other Oriental churches' stance?

Because I now know what many EO really think of us

I don't think that this is a good source for obtaining that kind of information. Internet tends to make people's views harsher than they really are.
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« Reply #62 on: May 06, 2011, 12:24:25 PM »

Fwiw, I've attended two Antiochian parishes in which Oriental Orthodox not only attended, but also became part of the parish and communed and confessed and whatnot.
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« Reply #63 on: May 06, 2011, 12:25:18 PM »

To us, they were Orthodox Russians and we were Orthodox Egyptians albeit from different communions. You can criticize that now, but that's how we thought at the time and I'm very grateful for it.

I won't criticize, because I agree. I consider the Copts my Orthodox brethen, as well as the Indian, Syriac, Armenian, etc.

I believe there are a few historical issues to work out still before full communion is restored, but we share the same Orthodox faith. If I were stranded away from an EO church, I would definitely attend an OO parish. If this were to be a long-term problem, chances are I would ask for a blessing to commune there as well.

Even having an EO parish nearby, if there were also an OO parish, I would probably want to have friends there, would enjoy getting to know the priest, and would want to attend their major events.


But I must say after joining this forum, I'm quite hesitant to even enter an EO Church now.

I highly doubt you would scandalize EOs by attending their parish. We've had a few OOs come through our doors, and we've always been welcoming. A lot of us are just curious to hear their perspective and learn more about the rich and apostolic liturgical tradition from which they come!
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« Reply #64 on: May 06, 2011, 12:49:49 PM »

Some Ethiopians and Indians commune at the EO parish where I live.

I'm not sure what to make of it. If the differences are really so inconsequential and they're both Orthodox, why was there a schism in the first place? And how can there be TWO true Churches outside of communion with one another?
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« Reply #65 on: May 06, 2011, 01:37:55 PM »

Likewise even during the most severe periods of persecution by the Byzantines the Orthodox always insisted that the sacraments of the Byzantines were real and never baptised, chrismated or ordained any who joined the Church.

Father, I'm curious, do you know where I can read about the history of these persecutions? I apologize if it's a bit off topic.
You can read about the life of St. Dioscorus Patriarch of Alexandria and St. Severus Patriarch of Antioch and get an idea of the Byzantine persecutions.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Severus_of_Antioch
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Dioscorus_of_Alexandria
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« Reply #66 on: May 06, 2011, 01:39:25 PM »

And how can there be TWO true Churches outside of communion with one another?

There can't. Who says otherwise is, IMHO, an adherent of the Anglican "Branch theory."
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« Reply #67 on: May 06, 2011, 01:43:01 PM »

Likewise even during the most severe periods of persecution by the Byzantines the Orthodox always insisted that the sacraments of the Byzantines were real and never baptised, chrismated or ordained any who joined the Church.

Father, I'm curious, do you know where I can read about the history of these persecutions? I apologize if it's a bit off topic.
You can read about the life of St. Dioscorus Patriarch of Alexandria and St. Severus Patriarch of Antioch and get an idea of the Byzantine persecutions.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Severus_of_Antioch
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Dioscorus_of_Alexandria
I was thinking more about "primary" sources, the written histories of the time, imperial letters, declarations, etc. Like how one studies Eusebius's Historia Ecclesiastica to learn about the Diocletianic Persecutions.
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« Reply #68 on: May 06, 2011, 01:44:27 PM »

But I must say after joining this forum, I'm quite hesitant to even enter an EO Church now.

Interesting. Can you tell us more, please?

Because I now know what many EO really think of us & have no interest in causing scandel to anyone.

Yes -- many EOs think that you aren't members of the One True Church, but they also take absolutely no offence in you thinking the same about them. It's completely natural and normal for an OO, EO, Catholic or Assyrian to think that his/her Church is the only one founded by Christ Himself.
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« Reply #69 on: May 06, 2011, 01:56:09 PM »




Continued......

I didn't care for the step Altars ,or the Elevated Stage Altar area, and the one piece altar Curtain they use,  shouldn't it be split in the middle that curtain....

Of All the Oriental Orthodox Churches ,the Copts seem to be closer to us eastern orthodox in doing things ,Also they have a Ikonastasis ,also I've seen  in some Ethiopian Orthodox Churches on U= tube......These two churches i may reconsider and pay a visit to...There a Coptic Orthodox Monastery In kenosha or Racine Wisconsin,  i Passed awhile back may pay them a visit one day...... police







No i wouldn't seek them out to attend, any of the Oriental Orthodox Churches....Though I would like to see us united eventually, and i recognize them As Orthodox , Other than the Armenian  Church....There is a Indian Orthodox Church In Waukegan, on Glen Flora Ave, A former Greek Orthodox Church, Greeks opened a New Bigger Orthodox Church on O'Plain Rd. Between Buckley Rd. and Belvedere Rd...Never was interested to pay a visit to the Indian Orthodox Church Even though I pass by it ,On my Way to New Gracanica Most Holy Mother Of God Monastery..... I watched Indian Orthodox liturgies on u=tube and the other Oriental Churches  I can't get used to the way they hold there services ,or there form of chanting or the way there Clergy vest or the hood 's they wear.....It's just different and I'm not used to it.....For Me I'll stick with The Eastern Orthodox  Way of Doing things..... If there Wasn't a Eastern Orthodox Church Near by ,I still wouldn't Go to them...I would stay in bed sleep late as i can.....  police
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« Reply #70 on: May 06, 2011, 02:19:29 PM »

Of All the Oriental Orthodox Churches ,the Copts seem to be closer to us eastern orthodox in doing things . . .

The British Orthodox Church (Coptic Patriarchate) seems to be heavily byzantanized:

Note the icon placed for veneration in the middle of the nave. I don't think it's done in any other OO Church.
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« Reply #71 on: May 06, 2011, 02:29:46 PM »

Not sure what you mean by examples.

Lay communion of members of the other Orthodox community happens very widely.

The trouble exists in this as in Ecumenism.

The Eastern Orthodox church is EITHER the one true church of Jesus Christ, OR it is not.

If it IS the one true church, then the one true church is the only one that should have true transmuted Eucharist.
If it is NOT the one true church, then the Eastern Orthodox church is phony.

By Eastern Orthodox understanding, it is the one true church and all considered in schism and not in communion with the church does not have a valid communion or "grace".

Inter communion does not work because it is pointless and truly against the Canon of the Holy Apostles.

It either IS or IS NOT the one true church with grace.  This is why EO are not in communion with the OO churches.



Hear hear!
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« Reply #72 on: May 06, 2011, 02:32:30 PM »

I'm not sure what to make of it. If the differences are really so inconsequential and they're both Orthodox, why was there a schism in the first place?

Supposedly just because of misunderstanding.

And how can there be TWO true Churches outside of communion with one another?

There can't.
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« Reply #73 on: May 06, 2011, 02:33:02 PM »

And how can there be TWO true Churches outside of communion with one another?

There can't. Who says otherwise is, IMHO, an adherent of the Anglican "Branch theory."

Agreed!
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« Reply #74 on: May 06, 2011, 02:34:14 PM »


Nice......

Now all they Have to Change , is the way they cross themselfs ,Instead of left to right ,To right to left and It would Be Perfect...... police



Of All the Oriental Orthodox Churches ,the Copts seem to be closer to us eastern orthodox in doing things . . .

The British Orthodox Church (Coptic Patriarchate) seems to be heavily byzantanized:

Note the icon placed for veneration in the middle of the nave. I don't think it's done in any other OO Church.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 02:36:54 PM by stashko » Logged

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« Reply #75 on: May 06, 2011, 02:34:56 PM »

but they also take absolutely no offence in you thinking the same about them.

That's the problem: they don't. Many OO are now ecumenist heretics.

It's completely natural and normal for an OO, EO, Catholic or Assyrian to think that his/her Church is the only one founded by Christ Himself.

Try telling them that. Then you get people like Father Peter ranting about how un-Orthodox one supposedly is.   Roll Eyes
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HabteSelassie
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« Reply #76 on: May 06, 2011, 02:36:06 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

If it is NOT the one true church, then the Eastern Orthodox church is phony.

It either IS or IS NOT the one true church with grace.  
This is why EO are not in communion with the OO churches.

I'm sorry to say but that is a rather historically inaccurate, shallow, and disingenuous analysis.  Of course it has already been point out kindly to you

The premises of your argument are proved manifestly false by church history therefore your whole argument collapses.

Likewise even during the most severe periods of persecution by the Byzantines the Orthodox always insisted that the sacraments of the Byzantines were real and never baptised, chrismated or ordained any who joined the Church.
So your insistence that grace is not present in the other communion is both false and un-Orthodox.

The Churches do not disrespect the sanctity of each other as sisters, the issues with closed communion are often largely more about sociopolitical issues more so than any kind of historic or theological grounding.  Most Churches mutual respect the disciplines of each other in regards to all Divine Mysteries (including weddings and even baptisms) without exactly disregarding each other.  
That's the problem: they don't. Many OO are now ecumenist heretics.

Easy with all that mama-grizzly style fire and brimstone Wink

There are two things wrong with that statement

a) You have it backwards, OO tend to be the ones who resist reunification, even when seemingly cooperating in the past 45 years of good dialogue, clearly since the 600s its we OO who have all the grievances and therefore continually decide to stay separate despite hundreds of invitations

b) I don't quite like the spirit of your attitude, it seems a bit to hostile and that is unfortunate, as we are all Christians here.

And further, I'm a bit baffled at how Ecumenism has become such a four letter word on this forum, since when was the concept of Christian love and unity such a negative thing? In time shouldn't we in God's Grace be happy to work towards open reunification of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church?  This whole drawing lines in the sand thing has gotten exceptionally cliched..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 02:39:49 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #77 on: May 06, 2011, 02:44:18 PM »

Please, return to the informative discussions or dots will rain. You want to 'discuss' which Church is right and why - do it in the Private Forums.
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« Reply #78 on: May 06, 2011, 02:45:35 PM »

but they also take absolutely no offence in you thinking the same about them.

That's the problem: they don't. Many OO are now ecumenist heretics.

It's completely natural and normal for an OO, EO, Catholic or Assyrian to think that his/her Church is the only one founded by Christ Himself.

Try telling them that. Then you get people like Father Peter ranting about how un-Orthodox one supposedly is.   Roll Eyes
You're probably my favorite heretic.  Wink
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dhinuus
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« Reply #79 on: May 06, 2011, 11:34:50 PM »

Continued......

I didn't care for the step Altars ,or the Elevated Stage Altar area, and the one piece altar Curtain they use,  shouldn't it be split in the middle that curtain....

Of All the Oriental Orthodox Churches ,the Copts seem to be closer to us eastern orthodox in doing things ,Also they have a Ikonastasis ,also I've seen  in some Ethiopian Orthodox Churches on U= tube......These two churches i may reconsider and pay a visit to...There a Coptic Orthodox Monastery In kenosha or Racine Wisconsin,  i Passed awhile back may pay them a visit one day...... police

No i wouldn't seek them out to attend, any of the Oriental Orthodox Churches....Though I would like to see us united eventually, and i recognize them As Orthodox , Other than the Armenian  Church....There is a Indian Orthodox Church In Waukegan, on Glen Flora Ave, A former Greek Orthodox Church, Greeks opened a New Bigger Orthodox Church on O'Plain Rd. Between Buckley Rd. and Belvedere Rd...Never was interested to pay a visit to the Indian Orthodox Church Even though I pass by it ,On my Way to New Gracanica Most Holy Mother Of God Monastery..... I watched Indian Orthodox liturgies on u=tube and the other Oriental Churches  I can't get used to the way they hold there services ,or there form of chanting or the way there Clergy vest or the hood 's they wear.....It's just different and I'm not used to it.....For Me I'll stick with The Eastern Orthodox  Way of Doing things..... If there Wasn't a Eastern Orthodox Church Near by ,I still wouldn't Go to them...I would stay in bed sleep late as i can.....  police
Dear stashko, If you are so uninterested in the Oriental Orthodox Church, why do you have to waste your time reading the Oriental Orthodox discussion forum and posting here stating that you dont really care for what we do. Mathew G M
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 11:42:03 PM by dhinuus » Logged

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« Reply #80 on: May 07, 2011, 02:10:18 AM »

Dear stashko, If you are so uninterested in the Oriental Orthodox Church, why do you have to waste your time reading the Oriental Orthodox discussion forum and posting here stating that you dont really care for what we do. Mathew G M
I am sorry, I somehow thought this was the oriental orthodox discussion board, didnt realize it was the faith issues board.
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