Author Topic: If the pope became orthodox?  (Read 8611 times)

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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #90 on: May 11, 2011, 09:02:29 AM »
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Under the circumstances I think you would be much happier in Orthodoxy.  I don't see why you would even want to look back.

Mary

Offline Peter J

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #91 on: May 11, 2011, 10:15:07 AM »
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random).

That's another thing I'm not too worried about; but if that did somehow come to pass, it wouldn't make the pope a heretic.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Peter J

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #92 on: May 11, 2011, 10:20:45 AM »
Thanks for the reply,

I'm glad Benedict doesn't keep you up at night... really.

But that was a non-answer.

I didn't really know how to respond if you guys were expecting one after that.

I don't speak for the other Catholic posters, but I wasn't expecting a response. I was just stating a fact.

You've never looked into it. Well maybe you should.

To quote Alan Rickman, "Thank you, Mr. Cowboy, I'll take it under advisement." ;D

We know that falling into heresy doesn't make him magically cease to be Pope...

I wouldn't say "magically", but yes falling into heresy doesn't make him cease to be Pope.

what - does he just vanish or something?

No no, you're thinking of when he puts on the ring.

So please explain to me how it would function in a real-world situation that the Pope would cease to be Pope... Who among you could declare him to be wrong and who among you could overrule him?

I can't tell you that. (Have you already forgotten I said I never looked into it?)

To be a little blunt, sedevacantism has always seemed like kind of a joke to me (not meaning any uncharitableness toward those who adhere to it).
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #93 on: May 11, 2011, 10:25:04 AM »
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Under the circumstances I think you would be much happier in Orthodoxy.  I don't see why you would even want to look back.

Mary

The real answer to Mr. Dunbar's question is that the pope can be deposed by the Church if and when the Church decides that the pope has removed himself from the Church by his teachings and his actions.  If under those circumstances the pope refuses to vacate the office, he can be removed.

M.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #94 on: May 11, 2011, 10:27:59 AM »
Christos Voskrese!
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Under the circumstances I think you would be much happier in Orthodoxy.  I don't see why you would even want to look back.
The circumstances being, of course, that there is no mechanism-according to the Vatican-to tell the pope of Rome is a heretic, and that there have been "crazy popes."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #95 on: May 11, 2011, 10:29:53 AM »
Christos Voskrese!
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Under the circumstances I think you would be much happier in Orthodoxy.  I don't see why you would even want to look back.

The real answer to Mr. Dunbar's question is that the pope can be deposed by the Church if and when the Church decides that the pope has removed himself from the Church by his teachings and his actions.  If under those circumstances the pope refuses to vacate the office, he can be removed.
Care to quote a canon or two (from the Vatican's code, not the Pedalion. We know he can be deposed), or some other authority recognized by the Vatican on that?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #96 on: May 11, 2011, 10:39:37 AM »
Christos Voskrese!
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Under the circumstances I think you would be much happier in Orthodoxy.  I don't see why you would even want to look back.

The real answer to Mr. Dunbar's question is that the pope can be deposed by the Church if and when the Church decides that the pope has removed himself from the Church by his teachings and his actions.  If under those circumstances the pope refuses to vacate the office, he can be removed.
Care to quote a canon or two (from the Vatican's code, not the Pedalion. We know he can be deposed), or some other authority recognized by the Vatican on that?

Nope.  Nor do I care to quote a Canon saying that the pope can retire.  And he can.  Nor do I care to quote a canon that says that a pope can be deposed for reasons of ill health, mental or physical.  But he can be.

But the way is there in the canons and in the Holy Fathers.  It's why we have canon lawyers.  To tell us how to do these things.

Absence of direct evidence is never evidence of absence.

Stop trying to teach grand-ma how to suck eggs.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 10:40:32 AM by elijahmaria »

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #97 on: May 11, 2011, 11:09:07 AM »
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Pope Alexander Sixtus, I think, the Borgia one, is splendidly portrayed by Jeremy Irons, in all his decadence on Showtime.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #98 on: May 11, 2011, 11:43:30 AM »
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Pope Alexander Sixtus, I think, the Borgia one, is splendidly portrayed by Jeremy Irons, in all his decadence on Showtime.

Was he a heretic?...or a quintessential sinner?   :D

Offline ialmisry

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #99 on: May 11, 2011, 12:53:13 PM »
Christos Voskrese!
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.
Under the circumstances I think you would be much happier in Orthodoxy.  I don't see why you would even want to look back.
The real answer to Mr. Dunbar's question is that the pope can be deposed by the Church if and when the Church decides that the pope has removed himself from the Church by his teachings and his actions.  If under those circumstances the pope refuses to vacate the office, he can be removed.
Care to quote a canon or two (from the Vatican's code, not the Pedalion. We know he can be deposed), or some other authority recognized by the Vatican on that?
Nope.  Nor do I care to quote a Canon saying that the pope can retire.  And he can.

And I can quote the caon:
Quote
CCL 332§2. If it happens that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that the resignation is made freely and properly manifested but not that it is accepted by anyone.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P16.HTM

Nor do I care to quote a canon that says that a pope can be deposed for reasons of ill health, mental or physical.
Because you cannot quote non-existent canons, nor invoke non-existent authority.
But he can be.
Because you say so?  Don't see that in the Vatican's rules.

But the way is there in the canons and in the Holy Fathers.  It's why we have canon lawyers.  To tell us how to do these things.
Ah, yest, that eternal monstrocity of a monument to clericalism, the Vatican's "magisterium."  They swallowed their tail and painted you in a corner I'm afraid:
Quote
Can. 335 When the Roman See is vacant or entirely impeded, nothing is to be altered in the governance of the universal Church; the special laws issued for these circumstances, however, are to be observed.

Absence of direct evidence is never evidence of absence.
But direct evidence means absence of an opposng argument.
Stop trying to teach grand-ma how to suck eggs.
just telling her don't want to smell the stench of the rotten egg she has laid.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Maria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #100 on: May 11, 2011, 01:07:15 PM »
This what if scenario is not going to happen, unless the Holy Spirit would intervene in a dramatic way.

As has been mentioned by others, if the Bishop of Rome would join the Orthodox Church, it could be only as an individual. I highly doubt that many of the Roman Catholic faithful would come along with him. His act of becoming Orthodox would most likely be labeled as schismatic by the Vatican.
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #101 on: May 11, 2011, 01:09:42 PM »
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Under the circumstances I think you would be much happier in Orthodoxy.  I don't see why you would even want to look back.

Mary
What do you mean by this?

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #102 on: May 11, 2011, 01:16:49 PM »
You are absolutely wrong on this one.   You do not know what you are talking about here and cannot prove I am wrong any more than I can prove that I am right save to say what I am telling you is a true understanding of the Catholic Church of my baptism.  It is what I have been taught by those with the authority to teach Catholic doctrine and law.

Blessings,

M.

Christos Voskrese!
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.
Under the circumstances I think you would be much happier in Orthodoxy.  I don't see why you would even want to look back.
The real answer to Mr. Dunbar's question is that the pope can be deposed by the Church if and when the Church decides that the pope has removed himself from the Church by his teachings and his actions.  If under those circumstances the pope refuses to vacate the office, he can be removed.
Care to quote a canon or two (from the Vatican's code, not the Pedalion. We know he can be deposed), or some other authority recognized by the Vatican on that?
Nope.  Nor do I care to quote a Canon saying that the pope can retire.  And he can.

And I can quote the caon:
Quote
CCL 332§2. If it happens that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that the resignation is made freely and properly manifested but not that it is accepted by anyone.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P16.HTM

Nor do I care to quote a canon that says that a pope can be deposed for reasons of ill health, mental or physical.
Because you cannot quote non-existent canons, nor invoke non-existent authority.
But he can be.
Because you say so?  Don't see that in the Vatican's rules.

But the way is there in the canons and in the Holy Fathers.  It's why we have canon lawyers.  To tell us how to do these things.
Ah, yest, that eternal monstrocity of a monument to clericalism, the Vatican's "magisterium."  They swallowed their tail and painted you in a corner I'm afraid:
Quote
Can. 335 When the Roman See is vacant or entirely impeded, nothing is to be altered in the governance of the universal Church; the special laws issued for these circumstances, however, are to be observed.

Absence of direct evidence is never evidence of absence.
But direct evidence means absence of an opposng argument.
Stop trying to teach grand-ma how to suck eggs.
just telling her don't want to smell the stench of the rotten egg she has laid.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #103 on: May 11, 2011, 03:27:08 PM »
Christos Voskrese!
You are absolutely wrong on this one.   You do not know what you are talking about here and cannot prove I am wrong any more than I can prove that I am right save to say what I am telling you is a true understanding of the Catholic Church of my baptism.  It is what I have been taught by those with the authority to teach Catholic doctrine and law.
Ah, the appeal to (unnamed and uncited) authority! How Ultramontanist, and worthy of the Vatican.

But such a poor argument, and  a great fallacy.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #104 on: May 11, 2011, 03:29:04 PM »
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Pope Alexander Sixtus, I think, the Borgia one, is splendidly portrayed by Jeremy Irons, in all his decadence on Showtime.

Was he a heretic?...or a quintessential sinner?   :D

In the end does it matter? His recorded sinfulness played a major role in the schisms and wars of the next centuries.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #105 on: May 11, 2011, 03:30:08 PM »
Christos Voskrese!
You are absolutely wrong on this one.   You do not know what you are talking about here and cannot prove I am wrong any more than I can prove that I am right save to say what I am telling you is a true understanding of the Catholic Church of my baptism.  It is what I have been taught by those with the authority to teach Catholic doctrine and law.
Ah, the appeal to (unnamed and uncited) authority! How Ultramontanist, and worthy of the Vatican.

But such a poor argument, and  a great fallacy.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Isa'nfallibility!!

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #106 on: May 11, 2011, 03:31:33 PM »
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Pope Alexander Sixtus, I think, the Borgia one, is splendidly portrayed by Jeremy Irons, in all his decadence on Showtime.

Was he a heretic?...or a quintessential sinner?   :D

In the end does it matter? His recorded sinfulness played a major role in the schisms and wars of the next centuries.

Since Christ came for sinners it matters indeed.  Did Jesus's own life on earth not leave a maelstrom behind?...yet he is the very essence of the good.


Offline ialmisry

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #107 on: May 11, 2011, 03:35:46 PM »
Christ is risen!
This what if scenario is not going to happen, unless the Holy Spirit would intervene in a dramatic way.

As has been mentioned by others, if the Bishop of Rome would join the Orthodox Church, it could be only as an individual. I highly doubt that many of the Roman Catholic faithful would come along with him. His act of becoming Orthodox would most likely be labeled as schismatic by the Vatican.
According to the Vatican, their pope is judged by no one.
Quote
Can. 331 The bishop of the Roman Church, in whom continues the office given by the Lord uniquely to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, is the head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the pastor of the universal Church on earth. By virtue of his office he possesses supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, which he is always able to exercise freely.

Can. 333 §1. By virtue of his office, the Roman Pontiff not only possesses power offer the universal Church but also obtains the primacy of ordinary power offer all particular churches and groups of them. Moreover, this primacy strengthens and protects the proper, ordinary, and immediate power which bishops possess in the particular churches entrusted to their care.

§2. In fulfilling the office of supreme pastor of the Church, the Roman Pontiff is always joined in communion with the other bishops and with the universal Church. He nevertheless has the right, according to the needs of the Church, to determine the manner, whether personal or collegial, of exercising this office.

§3. No appeal or recourse is permitted against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P16.HTM
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline celticfan1888

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #108 on: May 11, 2011, 03:38:23 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Forgive my sins.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #109 on: May 11, 2011, 03:42:15 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #110 on: May 11, 2011, 03:44:29 PM »
Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wyatt

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #111 on: May 11, 2011, 03:53:12 PM »
Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.
You seem to be confused. 1054 was the date when you all defected from Catholic unity.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #112 on: May 11, 2011, 03:54:14 PM »
Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.

At the very least in those days they followed him into schism and likely would do the same or beyond today.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2011, 03:58:19 PM »
Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.

At the very least in those days they followed him into schism and likely would do the same or beyond today.

You loose track of the fact that the east was seen as the schismatics, not the west.  So they went nowhere according to their own understandings at the time.

When the "true" Orthodox Churches split from the "untrue" Canonical ones...who believes that they are schismatics?  Is the offender schismatic or the one who takes offense?

Offline Peter J

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #114 on: May 11, 2011, 04:08:39 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!

I guess it would depend on what the heresy was.
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Offline Papist

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #115 on: May 11, 2011, 04:29:09 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #116 on: May 11, 2011, 04:37:45 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

That is...as they say...a no-brainer!! ..... :angel:

In fact our ignorance is worse, to these worldly eyes, than our heresy.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 04:38:36 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline Peter J

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #117 on: May 11, 2011, 04:38:40 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

Well, I guess in the way that Catholics are stupid to the SSPV. (That made sense, right?)
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #118 on: May 11, 2011, 04:45:34 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

Well, I guess in the way that Catholics are stupid to the SSPV. (That made sense, right?)

Yes.  Or the way in that I am stupid in your own eyes. 

So the question remains who is really in the wrong. 

The offender or the one who takes offense?

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #119 on: May 11, 2011, 04:53:15 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!

I guess it would depend on what the heresy was.

How about Papal Infaliability?
How about the Immaculate Conception?
How about the Assumption of the Theotokos without her Dying?
How about the filioque?
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #120 on: May 11, 2011, 04:56:27 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!

I guess it would depend on what the heresy was.

How about Papal Infaliability?
How about the Immaculate Conception?
How about the Assumption of the Theotokos without her Dying?
How about the filioque?


The third one is not taught by my Church and the other three are not heretical.

Offline Maria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #121 on: May 11, 2011, 04:57:45 PM »

How about Papal Infaliability?
How about the Immaculate Conception?
How about the Assumption of the Theotokos without her Dying?
How about the filioque?


What about Papal Supremacy? How could the Vatican give up those powers?

BTW, what happened with Pope John Paul I?
Was he killed? And what is to prevent a "rogue" pope from being murdered?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 04:59:17 PM by Maria »
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #122 on: May 11, 2011, 05:04:40 PM »
Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.

At the very least in those days they followed him into schism and likely would do the same or beyond today.

You loose track of the fact that the east was seen as the schismatics, not the west.  So they went nowhere according to their own understandings at the time.

When the "true" Orthodox Churches split from the "untrue" Canonical ones...who believes that they are schismatics?  Is the offender schismatic or the one who takes offense?

Well, I think that whether the east perceived the west as being in schism or vice versa certainly depends upon which side of the mountain one is standing on?

Frankly, after leaving the Greek Catholic Church as a matter of conscience, when my grandparents were called 'schizmatik!' by their neighbors and relatives, I suspect that although it hurt, on one level they felt a bit of 'pride' in being so labelled.


Offline ialmisry

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #123 on: May 11, 2011, 05:05:09 PM »
Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.
You seem to be confused. 1054 was the date when you all defected from Catholic unity.
Since you all are inventive when it comes to theology, do be more inventive in your retorts. You who decided to uphold the excommunication of a papal legate from a dead pope.  You seem even confused on what the Vatican teaches, let alone the Orthodox teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #124 on: May 11, 2011, 05:17:37 PM »
Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.
You seem to be confused. 1054 was the date when you all defected from Catholic unity.
Since you all are inventive when it comes to theology, do be more inventive in your retorts. You who decided to uphold the excommunication of a papal legate from a dead pope.  You seem even confused on what the Vatican teaches, let alone the Orthodox teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
I think you're the one who is confused. ;)

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #125 on: May 11, 2011, 05:23:47 PM »
Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.
You seem to be confused. 1054 was the date when you all defected from Catholic unity.
Since you all are inventive when it comes to theology, do be more inventive in your retorts. You who decided to uphold the excommunication of a papal legate from a dead pope.  You seem even confused on what the Vatican teaches, let alone the Orthodox teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Until the proverbial cows come home, Roman Catholic apologists will no doubt say we Orthodox left the unity of the Church in 1054 although the final separation and schism was not universally in force for at least another 200 years. Likewise, the Orthodox will not doubt reply, no we didn't leave - you did.

This is however an Orthodox board, and I think that it is safe to assume that all of our little band of 'hopelessly divided and leaderless schismatics'  ;)  accept the latter position as our starting and end point! We hold as a tenet of our Faith that Orthodoxy is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and for some of us, we sadly lament the schism of the Church of Rome and her separation by choice from the Pentarchy. Others do not so lament the current state of affairs.

For us, in order for the Pope of Rome to become Orthodox, he and the Church of Rome, would have to accept their place within a restored Pentarchy and renounce those actions which led them to heterodoxy.

Were that to happen, there surely would be those followers of both the Roman Church and of the Orthodox who would reject such an event and additional schism would be the result. It is pointless to speculate on numbers or percentages. If a Pope of Rome left without his Church, well I suspect that Rome would find a rule and chose a new Pope.

Surely however, if this did occur as the will of God, a good Roman Catholic and a good Orthodox Christian would be hard pressed to view the same as heresy. Figuring that part out is the tricky part!

Offline Peter J

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #126 on: May 11, 2011, 05:26:05 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

Well, I guess in the way that Catholics are stupid to the SSPV. (That made sense, right?)

Yes.  Or the way in that I am stupid in your own eyes. 

Papist and elijahmaria,

At the risk of sounding cliche, I think you both need to get over yourselves a little bit. Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they consider you to be stupid.
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #127 on: May 11, 2011, 05:29:53 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

Well, I guess in the way that Catholics are stupid to the SSPV. (That made sense, right?)

Yes.  Or the way in that I am stupid in your own eyes. 

Papist and elijahmaria,

At the risk of sounding cliche, I think you both need to get over yourselves a little bit. Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they consider you to be stupid.

 :laugh:  Oh I don't think you think I am stupid because you disagree with me.  I think you think I am stupid because I don't fight with you when you come here to bait me for no apparent reason.   :laugh:

Christ is Risen!

Offline Peter J

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #128 on: May 11, 2011, 05:32:58 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

Well, I guess in the way that Catholics are stupid to the SSPV. (That made sense, right?)

Yes.  Or the way in that I am stupid in your own eyes. 

Papist and elijahmaria,

At the risk of sounding cliche, I think you both need to get over yourselves a little bit. Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they consider you to be stupid.

 :laugh:  Oh I don't think you think I am stupid because you disagree with me.  I think you think I am stupid because I don't fight with you when you come here to bait me for no apparent reason.   :laugh:

Christ is Risen!

Are you serious?
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Offline celticfan1888

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #129 on: May 11, 2011, 05:33:58 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.

A. Irregardless - an informal term commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective. Hm, Ive never met anyone who's never heard of that word, maybe you just live under a rock.

B. From your point of view I guess he wouldnt. Let me just say that most RC that I deal with dont even properly believe/follow their faith, so they would follow a "heretical" Pope.
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #130 on: May 11, 2011, 05:35:30 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

Well, I guess in the way that Catholics are stupid to the SSPV. (That made sense, right?)

Yes.  Or the way in that I am stupid in your own eyes. 

Papist and elijahmaria,

At the risk of sounding cliche, I think you both need to get over yourselves a little bit. Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they consider you to be stupid.

 :laugh:  Oh I don't think you think I am stupid because you disagree with me.  I think you think I am stupid because I don't fight with you when you come here to bait me for no apparent reason.   :laugh:

Christ is Risen!

Are you serious?

No.  I am Vega...

 :D :D :D

Offline celticfan1888

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #131 on: May 11, 2011, 05:35:44 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

No, it's just that I grew up Roman Catholic, so I kind of know you're side of the world.  8)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 05:36:37 PM by celticfan1888 »
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #132 on: May 11, 2011, 05:40:57 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

No, it's just that I grew up Roman Catholic, so I kind of know you're side of the world.  8)

Well I'm still on that side of the world and your view looks pretty skewed to me...

Also you look pretty young so did you grow up in parishes with 80 families or 500 or more families. 

Makes a difference in how we get to "see" each other.

Offline Maria

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #133 on: May 11, 2011, 05:42:13 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

No, it's just that I grew up Roman Catholic, so I kind of know you're side of the world.  8)

I was born and raised a Catholic.
I also studied at two Catholic universities, and was a Dominican Tertiary.
And yes, if the Vatican can find a way to dispatch of a rogue Pope, they will.
Most likely, he will be asked to resign.
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Offline celticfan1888

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Re: If the pope became orthodox?
« Reply #134 on: May 11, 2011, 05:45:59 PM »
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

No, it's just that I grew up Roman Catholic, so I kind of know you're side of the world.  8)

Well I'm still on that side of the world and your view looks pretty skewed to me...

Also you look pretty young so did you grow up in parishes with 80 families or 500 or more families. 

Makes a difference in how we get to "see" each other.

Buddy, I grew up in one of the most highly Catholic parts of America. I used to be a HARDCORE Catholic, like I got my apologetics on against any non-Roman Catholic.

I guess if youre young you must be ignorant, eh?  8)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 05:48:49 PM by celticfan1888 »
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