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Author Topic: If the pope became orthodox?  (Read 7962 times) Average Rating: 0
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lubeltri
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« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2011, 05:44:15 PM »

But my favorite has to be the Spanish "Pope Gregory XVII". My Knights of Columbus friends and I sometimes do a little (a lot?) drinking and watch this hilarious video showing him having "visions". We laugh so hard that our sides ache.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGUQqNgffUM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2011, 06:33:02 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

I think his point is that you don't speak for all Catholics, regardless of what you may think. Wink
No, the Pope does... LMAO!
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« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2011, 06:39:06 PM »

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
If the Pope ceased to believe in Catholic doctrine, he would no longer be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. Without occupying the Chair of Peter, he would lose his charism of infallibility when defining faith and morals.

But the pope can declare a new dogma in which he would cease to believe what the church believes that statement makes no sense

Clarify
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« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2011, 08:32:06 PM »

Christ is risen!
Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
If the Pope ceased to believe in Catholic doctrine, he would no longer be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. Without occupying the Chair of Peter, he would lose his charism of infallibility when defining faith and morals.
According to the Vatican's pronouncements, once the pope sits in St. Peter's throne it is stuck to his seat until and if he voluntarily and without coercion resigns.
The Pope must be Catholic. If he is not Catholic, then he is not the Pope. Simple as that.
According to Pastor Aeternus, he gets to say what is Catholic, and no one gets to contradict him. Simple as that.
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« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2011, 08:36:37 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.
Would he cease to be pope if he refused to go?  Who would remove him? How? By what authority?
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« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2011, 08:41:27 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?
The very fact he was renouncing such things would indicate he had apostatized and, as Papist has already stated, would cease to be Catholic. A non-Catholic cannot be Pope.
I have a feeling that we may, in fact, have to repeats this somewhere between 10 and 3,591 times in this thread.
no, all you have to do is explain how you would remove "a non-Catholic pope." Your Pastor Aeternus makes it clear that your supreme pontiff is judged by no one:
Quote
Since the Roman Pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole Church, we likewise teach and declare that he is the supreme judge of the faithful, and that in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment. The sentence of the Apostolic See (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon. And so they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecumenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman Pontiff.
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« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2011, 08:43:27 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

I think his point is that you don't speak for all Catholics, regardless of what you may think. Wink
Any Catholic who would follow a former Pope into schism is not a Catholic at all.
LOL. And yet you all did.
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« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2011, 08:46:59 PM »

Christus resurrexit!

Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.
I find your dime-store interpretations of Catholic councils highly entertaining. Keep them up!
Well, return the favor and entertain us. Tell us how you would tell an Orthodox Pope who renounced Ultramontanism that he was wrong,  And even more entertaining: how and who would remove him?
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« Reply #53 on: May 06, 2011, 09:54:14 PM »

Christus resurrexit!

Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.
I find your dime-store interpretations of Catholic councils highly entertaining. Keep them up!
Well, return the favor and entertain us. Tell us how you would tell an Orthodox Pope who renounced Ultramontanism that he was wrong,  And even more entertaining: how and who would remove him?
This is unanswerable since none of our Popes will embrace Eastern Orthodoxy nor have any of them been ultramontanists.
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« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2011, 11:46:17 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

Huh....? What does that have to do with what I was saying?
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« Reply #55 on: May 06, 2011, 11:58:11 PM »

Christus resurrexit!

Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.
I find your dime-store interpretations of Catholic councils highly entertaining. Keep them up!
Well, return the favor and entertain us. Tell us how you would tell an Orthodox Pope who renounced Ultramontanism that he was wrong,  And even more entertaining: how and who would remove him?
This is unanswerable since none of our Popes will embrace Eastern Orthodoxy nor have any of them been ultramontanists.
Evading the question, we see.  If Honorius I were the present pope, you wouldn't be able remove him either.  And your supreme pontiffs have been ultramontanists for some time, which is why they are outside of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2011, 12:00:22 AM »

"If the pope became orthodox?"

--Ice cream cake at my house!

 angel

Seriously. I know I would throw a party.  Smiley
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« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2011, 12:02:26 AM »

Christus resurrexit!

Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.
I find your dime-store interpretations of Catholic councils highly entertaining. Keep them up!
Well, return the favor and entertain us. Tell us how you would tell an Orthodox Pope who renounced Ultramontanism that he was wrong,  And even more entertaining: how and who would remove him?
This is unanswerable since none of our Popes will embrace Eastern Orthodoxy nor have any of them been ultramontanists.
Evading the question, we see.  If Honorius I were the present pope, you wouldn't be able remove him either.  And your supreme pontiffs have been ultramontanists for some time, which is why they are outside of Orthodoxy.
I won't deny that our Popes are outside of capital "o" Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2011, 12:11:42 AM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

I think his point is that you don't speak for all Catholics, regardless of what you may think. Wink
Any Catholic who would follow a former Pope into schism is not a Catholic at all.

OK.....

But even if that's true, it's still essentially irrelevant to the original point. Those people are still essentially "registered" as Catholics and are included in the 1.1-1.3 billion figure. What this was originally in response to was the question of whether the number following the Pope to Orthodoxy would result in it being the largest Orthodox church. And given my estimate of the Russian Orthodox church constituting about 100 million people, that would only require 10% of those registered as Baptized Catholics to go along. Who you think it actually Catholic is rather irrelevant, as the Roman Orthodox church would still wind up being the largest.
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« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2011, 12:25:13 AM »

Christus resurrexit!

Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.
I find your dime-store interpretations of Catholic councils highly entertaining. Keep them up!
Well, return the favor and entertain us. Tell us how you would tell an Orthodox Pope who renounced Ultramontanism that he was wrong,  And even more entertaining: how and who would remove him?
This is unanswerable since none of our Popes will embrace Eastern Orthodoxy nor have any of them been ultramontanists.
Evading the question, we see.  If Honorius I were the present pope, you wouldn't be able remove him either.  And your supreme pontiffs have been ultramontanists for some time, which is why they are outside of Orthodoxy.
I won't deny that our Popes are outside of capital "o" Orthodoxy.
Not being orthodox, of course they are.
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« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2011, 01:05:24 AM »

Didn't they remove some popes of Old they didn't care for, By poisoning  them or suffacating them while they slept...... Grin I guess they can alway fall back on the old tried and true Methods ...... Grin
 stashko, stashko, stashko...had you limited your entire post to the first comment, we wouldn't have a problem.  But, since you felt the need to suggest that murder is a viable means of removing a heterodox bishop from his office, you are hereby put on a 45-day warning.  As always, appeal to Fr. George or Fr. Chris if you must.  -Schultz.
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« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2011, 01:43:44 AM »

Christ is risen!
Didn't they remove some popes of Old they didn't care for, By poisoning  them or suffacating them while they slept...... Grin I guess they can alway fall back on the old tried and true Methods ...... Grin
Ah..alas! Such cherished traditions have died out. police
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« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2011, 10:59:22 AM »

Hospodi pomiluj.  Enough already...we may as well speculate on a time when pigs could fly and how we would have to adapt our windshield wipers and umbrellas to the new reality.
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« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2011, 11:01:07 AM »

Hospodi pomiluj.  Enough already...we may as well speculate on a time when pigs could fly and how we would have to adapt our windshield wipers and umbrellas to the new reality.
I'm thinking that is more likely to happen. Wink
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« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2011, 12:15:14 PM »

Hospodi pomiluj.  Enough already...we may as well speculate on a time when pigs could fly and how we would have to adapt our windshield wipers and umbrellas to the new reality.
I'm thinking that is more likely to happen. Wink

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« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2011, 03:22:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.

Yes indeed, our distinctions and divisions are generally more deeply sociocultural, historical, and political than they are theological.  That being said, even if the Pope of Rome were to abolish the schism, and even if all the ranking Roman clergy were to be in agreeing sentiments, and even if the other jurisdictions of Orthodox further are in agreement amongst the ranking clergy, still, the people themselves harbor centuries of wounds and divides which can't be overcome by any top-down gestures.  The reunification of Our Churches must start from the bottom up, it comes from the people, from the laity, from the hearts of Christians themselves, and what the Bishops and clergy do is really more a kind of reaction than an instigation.

So unfortunately you are quite right, any top-down attempts at reunification would only further splinter and divide the Church, be it Roman Catholic, Orthodox, or otherwise Sad

We then need to pray in the Spirit of love that Christians began to heal these wounds that divide amongst ourselves.  We must learn to acknowledge the real causes of our divisions, and see them for what they are, rather than keep pushing them aside for to only further entrench them into the confusion of yet another generation..

Besides, even IF Constantinople and Rome were to formally unite, who on Earth could ever get not only all the us Orientals to jump on board Wink

stay blessed,
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« Reply #66 on: May 08, 2011, 09:15:50 AM »

Hi all, sorry I'm late to this thread.


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.

Iasmisry, your ignorance of sedevacantism is sad. I mean, have you even taken Sedevacantism 101?

Sorry, couldn't resist, but seriously, the standard Catholic position is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine: that a pope can cease to be pope in one of 3 ways. The first 2 ways are (obviously) death or voluntary resignation. The third way is by falling into heresy.

So, really, the sedevacantist position is pretty logical.
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« Reply #67 on: May 08, 2011, 05:42:03 PM »

Hi all, sorry I'm late to this thread.


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.

Iasmisry, your ignorance of sedevacantism is sad. I mean, have you even taken Sedevacantism 101?

Sorry, couldn't resist, but seriously, the standard Catholic position is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine: that a pope can cease to be pope in one of 3 ways. The first 2 ways are (obviously) death or voluntary resignation. The third way is by falling into heresy.

So, really, the sedevacantist position is pretty logical.

Woooooooooooo...Now you've stepped in it.... Getting popcorn ready.
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« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2011, 05:47:21 PM »

Iasmisry, your ignorance of sedevacantism is sad. I mean, have you even taken Sedevacantism 101?

Sorry, couldn't resist, but seriously, the standard Catholic position is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine: that a pope can cease to be pope in one of 3 ways. The first 2 ways are (obviously) death or voluntary resignation. The third way is by falling into heresy.

So, really, the sedevacantist position is pretty logical.
He is not ignorant of anything. It's an act. He loves to be snarky whenever possible. From his point of view, we are all just mindless sheep who follow whatever our Supreme Pontiff tells us. God forbid he ever admit that even one of us has half a brain.  Angry
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« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2011, 08:14:12 PM »

Woooooooooooo...Now you've stepped in it.... Getting popcorn ready.

Oh man, don't tell me I stepped in butter again.
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« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2011, 09:25:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.

Yes indeed, our distinctions and divisions are generally more deeply sociocultural, historical, and political than they are theological.  That being said, even if the Pope of Rome were to abolish the schism, and even if all the ranking Roman clergy were to be in agreeing sentiments, and even if the other jurisdictions of Orthodox further are in agreement amongst the ranking clergy, still, the people themselves harbor centuries of wounds and divides which can't be overcome by any top-down gestures.  The reunification of Our Churches must start from the bottom up, it comes from the people, from the laity, from the hearts of Christians themselves, and what the Bishops and clergy do is really more a kind of reaction than an instigation.

So unfortunately you are quite right, any top-down attempts at reunification would only further splinter and divide the Church, be it Roman Catholic, Orthodox, or otherwise Sad

We then need to pray in the Spirit of love that Christians began to heal these wounds that divide amongst ourselves.  We must learn to acknowledge the real causes of our divisions, and see them for what they are, rather than keep pushing them aside for to only further entrench them into the confusion of yet another generation..

Besides, even IF Constantinople and Rome were to formally unite, who on Earth could ever get not only all the us Orientals to jump on board Wink

stay blessed,
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« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2011, 03:15:54 AM »

Hi all, sorry I'm late to this thread.


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.

Iasmisry, your ignorance of sedevacantism is sad. I mean, have you even taken Sedevacantism 101?

Sorry, couldn't resist, but seriously, the standard Catholic position is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine: that a pope can cease to be pope in one of 3 ways. The first 2 ways are (obviously) death or voluntary resignation. The third way is by falling into heresy.

So, really, the sedevacantist position is pretty logical.

Sedes aren't really recognized as full fledged Catholics anyway, so you have to take their rantings with a grain of salt. 
Plus, St. Robert Bellarmine was just a man, and not the Church unto himself.  His theories are just theological speculations and have no force of law in the RCC whatsoever.  Truth is, only an Ecumenical Council of the RCC can depose the Pope from his office.
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« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2011, 07:20:44 AM »

This is unanswerable since none of our Popes will embrace Eastern Orthodoxy nor have any of them been ultramontanists.

Forgive me for going off-topic, but you're saying that no pope has ever been ultramontanist?
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« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2011, 09:14:40 AM »

I am the OP and actually asked this question to make a point infallibility is infallibility. Reading on this and RC websites and a few books on the councils(not claiming to be an expert) there is little doubt that the bishop of Rome was sometimes called upon to settle disputes or agree with some council ruling or mediate. However ther is a hugh difference between this and single handedly pronouncing doctrine, a practice for which I can find no support. The other point is that even if the pope wanted to reunite, the orthodox wouldn't let him. On this site, which is very informative there is some small minded bickering especially between the Russian church and the Greek over who should be first. If even half of the RCC became orthodox the fight would be over because they would represent the real Rome and be the largest. Having said that I am about 80 percent sure that I am going to become a catechumen in a WRO church, largely base on the shared authority in the OC vs one man rule. I do love the western rite service no guitars!
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« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2011, 09:14:48 AM »

I think the R.C. position here is glaringly circular and self-defeating.

The Pope alone sits in 'Peter's Chair' and is infallible, and all good Catholics must follow him as their shepherd; as the Vicar of Christ... unless he says something you disagree with?

The argument is that the Pope cannot become Orthodox because by doing so he would cease to be Pope?

But the Pope was Orthodox in the beginning! If the Pope was able to lead the flock away from Orthodoxy - then there is no valid reason why he can't lead them back to where they came from.

And... if the Pope somehow automatically ceases to be Pope upon entering into heresy then he has (IMO at least) already ceased to be Pope generations; long and ever ago, hasn't he?

Even stranger to me are the ones who claim to be Roman Catholic and say that good Catholics must follow the Pope... and then they tell you that the Pope actually isn't the Pope... and when you ask them just who the Pope is - they can't even tell you who the Pope is!

They say he's hiding!

Then in the next breath, they call Orthodox Christians 'schismatics' because they're not in communion w/ the Pope.

??



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« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2011, 09:38:18 AM »

I think the R.C. position here is glaringly circular and self-defeating.

The Pope alone sits in 'Peter's Chair' and is infallible, and all good Catholics must follow him as their shepherd; as the Vicar of Christ... unless he says something you disagree with?

Where did you get that from?
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« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2011, 09:40:41 AM »

The other point is that even if the pope wanted to reunite, the orthodox wouldn't let him.

I don't know what you mean by "even if the pope wanted to reunite". The pope does want to reunite. The problem is that you apparently understand that to mean that he would convert to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #77 on: May 09, 2011, 10:23:37 AM »

The other point is that even if the pope wanted to reunite, the orthodox wouldn't let him.

I don't know what you mean by "even if the pope wanted to reunite". The pope does want to reunite. The problem is that you apparently understand that to mean that he would convert to Orthodoxy.

I think, based on Rome's policy concerning communing Orthodox, this is already the case. The only practical step would be for Orthodox churches to reciprocate this gesture. That being said, I don't see it happening on a widespread official scale anytime soon, at least not until our disagreements are resolved.
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« Reply #78 on: May 09, 2011, 12:16:59 PM »

This is unanswerable since none of our Popes will embrace Eastern Orthodoxy nor have any of them been ultramontanists.

Forgive me for going off-topic, but you're saying that no pope has ever been ultramontanist?
Do you have some in mind that has been? If so, who and why?
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« Reply #79 on: May 09, 2011, 12:23:40 PM »

The other point is that even if the pope wanted to reunite, the orthodox wouldn't let him.

I don't know what you mean by "even if the pope wanted to reunite". The pope does want to reunite. The problem is that you apparently understand that to mean that he would convert to Orthodoxy.

I think, based on Rome's policy concerning communing Orthodox, this is already the case.

I would disagree, in a way, with your logic, because I believe that he also wants to reunite with Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. who aren't normally admitted to communion.
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« Reply #80 on: May 09, 2011, 01:12:40 PM »

The other point is that even if the pope wanted to reunite, the orthodox wouldn't let him.

I don't know what you mean by "even if the pope wanted to reunite". The pope does want to reunite. The problem is that you apparently understand that to mean that he would convert to Orthodoxy.

I think, based on Rome's policy concerning communing Orthodox, this is already the case.

I would disagree, in a way, with your logic, because I believe that he also wants to reunite with Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. who aren't normally admitted to communion.

Yes, but if, for example, I was to approach the chalice in a RC church, the priest would have to (according to your canon law) admit me as long as I am properly prepared. This is not the case with Anglicans, Lutherans, etc.
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« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2011, 12:37:11 PM »

The other point is that even if the pope wanted to reunite, the orthodox wouldn't let him.

I don't know what you mean by "even if the pope wanted to reunite". The pope does want to reunite. The problem is that you apparently understand that to mean that he would convert to Orthodoxy.

I think, based on Rome's policy concerning communing Orthodox, this is already the case.

I would disagree, in a way, with your logic, because I believe that he also wants to reunite with Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. who aren't normally admitted to communion.

Yes, but if, for example, I was to approach the chalice in a RC church, the priest would have to (according to your canon law) admit me as long as I am properly prepared. This is not the case with Anglicans, Lutherans, etc.
That is due to our beliefs about Apostolic Succession. We believe you (the Orthodox Church) has it as well as the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East. It does not mean we are fully united or that we value unity less with the Protestant sects. We acknowledge that we are much closer to unity with the Orthodox than with groups without Holy Orders.
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« Reply #82 on: May 10, 2011, 02:09:57 PM »

Christ is risen!
Hi all, sorry I'm late to this thread.


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.

Iasmisry, your ignorance of sedevacantism is sad. I mean, have you even taken Sedevacantism 101?

Sorry, couldn't resist, but seriously, the standard Catholic position is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine: that a pope can cease to be pope in one of 3 ways. The first 2 ways are (obviously) death or voluntary resignation. The third way is by falling into heresy.

So, really, the sedevacantist position is pretty logical.
Just making a mental note, penciling this post in for a response.
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« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2011, 05:37:08 PM »

Thanks for the reply.

I think the R.C. position here is glaringly circular and self-defeating.

The Pope alone sits in 'Peter's Chair' and is infallible, and all good Catholics must follow him as their shepherd; as the Vicar of Christ... unless he says something you disagree with?

Where did you get that from?


(...)

Sorry, couldn't resist, but seriously, the standard Catholic position is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine: that a pope can cease to be pope in one of 3 ways. The first 2 ways are (obviously) death or voluntary resignation. The third way is by falling into heresy.

 

Who (within the R.C. ranks) can declare that the Pope has 'fallen into heresy'?

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« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2011, 05:55:19 PM »

I think the R.C. position here is glaringly circular and self-defeating.

The Pope alone sits in 'Peter's Chair' and is infallible, and all good Catholics must follow him as their shepherd; as the Vicar of Christ... unless he says something you disagree with?

Where did you get that from?

He got that from good ole' Roman Catholic teaching, mate.
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« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2011, 10:28:50 PM »

This is unanswerable since none of our Popes will embrace Eastern Orthodoxy nor have any of them been ultramontanists.

Forgive me for going off-topic, but you're saying that no pope has ever been ultramontanist?
Do you have some in mind that has been? If so, who and why?

My thinking was a little more general.

I find that there isn't a strict consensus among Catholics concerning ultramontanism. But, even so, I think it's rare to hear someone claim that there has never been an ultramontanist pope.
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« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2011, 10:38:39 PM »

Thanks for the reply.

I think the R.C. position here is glaringly circular and self-defeating.

The Pope alone sits in 'Peter's Chair' and is infallible, and all good Catholics must follow him as their shepherd; as the Vicar of Christ... unless he says something you disagree with?

Where did you get that from?


(...)

Sorry, couldn't resist, but seriously, the standard Catholic position is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine: that a pope can cease to be pope in one of 3 ways. The first 2 ways are (obviously) death or voluntary resignation. The third way is by falling into heresy.

 

Who (within the R.C. ranks) can declare that the Pope has 'fallen into heresy'?

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

I guess I've never really looked into that (or even felt a need to look into it). It's enough for me to know that, if a pope did actually fall into heresy, he would cease to be pope (according to Bellarmine, that is).

You realize, I trust, that I don't exactly lie awake at night worrying that I might arise in the morning to find that Benedict has fallen into heresy.
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« Reply #87 on: May 11, 2011, 05:21:46 AM »

Thanks for the reply.

I think the R.C. position here is glaringly circular and self-defeating.

The Pope alone sits in 'Peter's Chair' and is infallible, and all good Catholics must follow him as their shepherd; as the Vicar of Christ... unless he says something you disagree with?

I guess I wonder how this would make the Pope a heretic since we allow the orthodox to take communion with us and not vice-versa.
Where did you get that from?


(...)

Sorry, couldn't resist, but seriously, the standard Catholic position is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine: that a pope can cease to be pope in one of 3 ways. The first 2 ways are (obviously) death or voluntary resignation. The third way is by falling into heresy.

 

Who (within the R.C. ranks) can declare that the Pope has 'fallen into heresy'?

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

I guess I've never really looked into that (or even felt a need to look into it). It's enough for me to know that, if a pope did actually fall into heresy, he would cease to be pope (according to Bellarmine, that is).

You realize, I trust, that I don't exactly lie awake at night worrying that I might arise in the morning to find that Benedict has fallen into heresy.
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« Reply #88 on: May 11, 2011, 07:10:55 AM »

Thanks for the reply,

I'm glad Benedict doesn't keep you up at night... really.

But that was a non-answer.

I didn't really know how to respond if you guys were expecting one after that.

You've never looked into it. Well maybe you should.

We know that falling into heresy doesn't make him magically cease to be Pope... what - does he just vanish or something? We know that Popes in the past who promulgated heresies indeed remained Pope afterwards.

Who instituted the insertion of the filioque, etc?

So please explain to me how it would function in a real-world situation that the Pope would cease to be Pope... Who among you could declare him to be wrong and who among you could overrule him?

Thanks,

†IC XC†
†NI KA†




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« Reply #89 on: May 11, 2011, 07:39:26 AM »

This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.
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