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Author Topic: If the pope became orthodox?  (Read 8083 times) Average Rating: 0
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Rdunbar123
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« on: May 05, 2011, 06:45:25 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?
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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2011, 06:47:01 PM »

The pope is and has always been orthodox.
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2011, 06:49:04 PM »

Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2011, 06:57:32 PM »

The pope is and has always been orthodox.
Absolutely
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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2011, 07:03:54 PM »

The pope is and has always been orthodox.
Absolutely

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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2011, 07:58:54 PM »

I imagine there would have to be jurisdictional discussions due to overlaps.
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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2011, 09:06:51 PM »

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.
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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2011, 09:36:14 PM »


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.
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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2011, 01:47:04 AM »

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
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« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2011, 01:51:49 AM »


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
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« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2011, 04:23:28 AM »

I know there are many issues, but isnt this the reason the churches can't reunite? This issue of authority is central. If the bishop of Rome has primacy over all and the power to bind and loose, then the rest of chritianity is wrong. If not, then the RCC is false. This is why I am converting to Orthodoxy. All the other issues just define the differences and make interesting reading. IMO.
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« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2011, 09:57:08 AM »

I imagine there would have to be jurisdictional discussions due to overlaps.

At least here in America, I think that would be part of the process of becoming Orthodox.

But seriously, both sides would probably be happy with having multiple jurisdictions (at least here in America, don't know about other places). I doubt Rome would relinquish the jurisdictional authority that they have over their churches here, and I don't see Orthodoxy doing that either. While Orthodoxy is talking about uniting churches under one jurisdiction, allowing Rome to be that jurisdiction would be a shot in the foot if that reunion didn't last. From a RC perspective, they have Eastern Catholic churches here that (to the best of my knowledge, could be wrong about this one, apotheoun or elijahmaria might be able to correct me if so) fall under the jurisdictional authority of their respective patriarchs (Melkites in America would fall under their patriarch in Antioch), which is similar (not quite the same because we have no "Pope" as defined by RC) on a slightly smaller scale of the current situation with Orthodoxy here.
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« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2011, 11:45:21 AM »

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
If the Pope ceased to believe in Catholic doctrine, he would no longer be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. Without occupying the Chair of Peter, he would lose his charism of infallibility when defining faith and morals.
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« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2011, 11:46:13 AM »


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
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« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2011, 11:48:01 AM »


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.
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« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2011, 11:50:18 AM »

Christ is risen!
Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
If the Pope ceased to believe in Catholic doctrine, he would no longer be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. Without occupying the Chair of Peter, he would lose his charism of infallibility when defining faith and morals.
According to the Vatican's pronouncements, once the pope sits in St. Peter's throne it is stuck to his seat until and if he voluntarily and without coercion resigns.
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« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2011, 11:53:48 AM »


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
Alas for you! that definition came down in VI.  Maybe the Petite Église was right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petite_Eglise
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« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2011, 11:54:18 AM »

Christ is risen!
Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
If the Pope ceased to believe in Catholic doctrine, he would no longer be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. Without occupying the Chair of Peter, he would lose his charism of infallibility when defining faith and morals.
According to the Vatican's pronouncements, once the pope sits in St. Peter's throne it is stuck to his seat until and if he voluntarily and without coercion resigns.
The Pope must be Catholic. If he is not Catholic, then he is not the Pope. Simple as that.
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« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2011, 11:56:56 AM »

Christus resurrexit!
Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
Oh, the ironies! The Vatican would come back to Catholic unity with the Orthodox using a power that Orthodoxy says he doesn't have, while those who refuse to go along would be left to explain their disobedience to a power which they insist he has.
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« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2011, 12:53:33 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
Oh, the ironies! The Vatican would come back to Catholic unity with the Orthodox using a power that Orthodoxy says he doesn't have, while those who refuse to go along would be left to explain their disobedience to a power which they insist he has.

My head hurts.
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« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2011, 01:20:05 PM »

The pope is and has always been orthodox.



What about Pope Honorius the First?
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« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2011, 01:25:49 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
Oh, the ironies! The Vatican would come back to Catholic unity with the Orthodox using a power that Orthodoxy says he doesn't have, while those who refuse to go along would be left to explain their disobedience to a power which they insist he has.

My head hurts.

But Mommy, what IF the moon was made of cheese, what IF??? It could happen..... Wink Gosh, a topic for another scintillating thread.
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« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2011, 01:46:57 PM »

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
If the Pope ceased to believe in Catholic doctrine, he would no longer be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. Without occupying the Chair of Peter, he would lose his charism of infallibility when defining faith and morals.

I'm proposing he change Catholic doctrine and revert back to what was believed in the first millennium. If he can't do that without ceasing to be Pope then the Catholic Church is really in a pickle. Fortunately, I think the documents of VII combined with certain interpretations of VI give him every liberty back toward Orthodoxy - not all the way to radical concilliarism (my impression most EO's are looking for this) but at least back to the original limited papal powers.

And at the very least, since 1870 no one really has the power to depose him.  
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« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2011, 01:51:44 PM »

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
If the Pope ceased to believe in Catholic doctrine, he would no longer be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. Without occupying the Chair of Peter, he would lose his charism of infallibility when defining faith and morals.

I'm proposing he change Catholic doctrine and revert back to what was believed in the first millennium. If he can't do that without ceasing to be Pope then the Catholic Church is really in a pickle. Fortunately, I think the documents of VII combined with certain interpretations of VI give him every liberty back toward Orthodoxy - not all the way to radical concilliarism (my impression most EO's are looking for this) but at least back to the original limited papal powers.

And at the very least, since 1870 no one really has the power to depose him.  
That's a very interesting view that I did not expect from some one involved in the SSPX.
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« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2011, 02:02:51 PM »

I think the documents of VII combined with certain interpretations of VI give him every liberty back toward Orthodoxy - not all the way to radical concilliarism (my impression most EO's are looking for this) but at least back to the original limited papal powers.
But times have changed since the 5th Century. Imperial power shifted completely to Constantinople, which became the new center of Christianity in the empire. Constantinople remains the EO Primus Inter Pares, and Moscow has risen to a dominant position in practice following Constantinople's captivity. Today the see of Old Rome is no more than a small part of a city in a small country that was in disunity for several centuries.
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« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2011, 02:09:32 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
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« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2011, 02:11:17 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.
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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2011, 02:13:51 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?
The very fact he was renouncing such things would indicate he had apostatized and, as Papist has already stated, would cease to be Catholic. A non-Catholic cannot be Pope.
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« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2011, 02:15:14 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?
The very fact he was renouncing such things would indicate he had apostatized and, as Papist has already stated, would cease to be Catholic. A non-Catholic cannot be Pope.
I have a feeling that we may, in fact, have to repeats this somewhere between 10 and 3,591 times in this thread.
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« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2011, 02:15:59 PM »

As I said earlier, not much of a topic to discuss. How about trying 'what if the sky were bright green, would it still be the sky?' It is not even remotely probable, so this is a waste of time.
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« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2011, 02:21:44 PM »

I think the documents of VII combined with certain interpretations of VI give him every liberty back toward Orthodoxy - not all the way to radical concilliarism (my impression most EO's are looking for this) but at least back to the original limited papal powers.
But times have changed since the 5th Century. Imperial power shifted completely to Constantinople, which became the new center of Christianity in the empire. Constantinople remains the EO Primus Inter Pares, and Moscow has risen to a dominant position in practice following Constantinople's captivity. Today the see of Old Rome is no more than a small part of a city in a small country that was in disunity for several centuries.

Yes. I think that since the promulgation of Ut Unum Sint this view is the biggest obstacle to reunion.
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« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2011, 02:23:07 PM »

I believe a good number of the RC laity would follow the Roman pontiff, but sizable portion would remain. Considering the degree of disregard many of RC laity already have for papal authority, I can't see them following his presumed transition of communion.
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« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2011, 02:38:58 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
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« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2011, 02:59:56 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.
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« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2011, 03:19:22 PM »

"If the pope became orthodox?"

--Ice cream cake at my house!

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« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2011, 03:23:49 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

I think his point is that you don't speak for all Catholics, regardless of what you may think. Wink
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« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2011, 03:52:53 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

I think his point is that you don't speak for all Catholics, regardless of what you may think. Wink
Any Catholic who would follow a former Pope into schism is not a Catholic at all.
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« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2011, 04:22:33 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

I think his point is that you don't speak for all Catholics, regardless of what you may think. Wink
Any Catholic who would follow a former Pope into schism is not a Catholic at all.

Yes, and there are a bunch of sedevecantists who would agree with you that you're a schismatic. Wink
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« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2011, 04:26:36 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

I think his point is that you don't speak for all Catholics, regardless of what you may think. Wink
Any Catholic who would follow a former Pope into schism is not a Catholic at all.

Yes, and there are a bunch of sedevecantists who would agree with you that you're a schismatic. Wink
Oh well. They are not Catholics either.
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« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2011, 04:31:09 PM »

I find your dime-store interpretations of Catholic councils highly entertaining. Keep them up!


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.
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« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2011, 04:46:31 PM »

Big-time food for thought:

"Certainly, no one who claims allegiance to Catholic theology can simply declare the doctrine of primacy null and void, especially not if he seeks to understand the objections and evaluates with an open mind the relative weight of what can be determined historically. Nor is it possible, on the other hand, for him to regard as the only possible form and, consequently, as binding on all Christians the form this primacy has taken in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. The symbolic gestures of Pope Paul VI and, in particular, his kneeling before the representative of the Ecumenical Patriarch were an attempt to express precisely this and, by such signs, to point the way out of the historical impasse. Although it is not given us to halt the flight of history, to change the course of centuries, we may say, nevertheless, that what was possible for a thousand years is not impossible for Christians today. After all, Cardinal Humbert of Silva Candida, in the same bull in which he excommunicated the Patriarch Michael Cerularius and thus inaugurated the schism between East and West, designated the Emperor and people of Constantinople as “very Christian and orthodox”, although their concept of the Roman primacy was certainly far less different from that of Cerularius than from that, let us say, of the First Vatican Council. In other words, Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium. When the Patriarch Athenagoras, on July 25, 1967, on the occasion of the Pope’s visit to Phanar, designated him as the successor of St. Peter, as the most esteemed among us, as one also presides in charity, this great Church leader was expressing the essential content of the doctrine of primacy as it was known in the first millennium. Rome need not ask for more. Reunion could take place in this context if, on the one hand, the East would cease to oppose as heretical the developments that took place in the West in the second millennium and would accept the Catholic Church as legitimate and orthodox in the form she had acquired in the course of that development, while, on the other hand, the West would recognize the Church of the East as orthodox and legitimate in the form she has always had.

"Such a mutual act of acceptance and recognition, in the Catholicity that is common to and still possessed by each side, is assuredly no light matter. It is an act of self-conquest, of self-denunciation and, certainly, also of self-discovery. It is an act that cannot be brought about by diplomacy but must be a spiritual undertaking of the whole Church in both East and West. If what is theologically possible is also to be actually possible in the Church, the theological aspect must be spiritually prepared and spiritually accepted. My diagnosis of the relationship between East and West in the Church is as follows: from a theological perspective, the union of the Churches of East and West is fundamentally possible, but the spiritual preparation is not yet sufficiently far advanced and, therefore, not yet ready in practice. When I say it is fundamentally possible from a theological perspective, I do not overlook the fact that, on closer inspection, a number of obstacles still exist with respect to the theological possibility: from the Filioque to the question of the indissolubility of marriage. Despite these difficulties, some of which are present more strongly in the West, some in the East, we must learn that unity, for its part, is a Christian truth, an essentially Christian concept, of so high a rank that it can be sacrificed only to safeguard what is most fundamental, not where the way to it is obstructed by formulations and practices that, however important they may be, do not destroy community in the faith of the Fathers and in the basic form of the Church as they saw her."

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology: Building Stones for a Fundamental Theology (San Francisco, CA: Ignatius Press, 1987), pp. 198-199.

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« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2011, 05:03:31 PM »

Incidentally, creepy sedevacantists point to this passage as one of the proofs that "antipope Benedict-Ratzinger" (as they call him) is not the Supreme Pontiff but some scraggly Greek heretic-loving Modernist. So, yes, it's safe to say that they would not follow the Pope were he to effect union with some or all of the Orthodox churches.

My theory is that these types are those ultramontanists who were angry that Vatican I didn't go far enough and for whom Vatican II was the last straw. So they gave up their wider ultramontanist project and appointed themselves über-infallible little popes. A very interesting if very small brand of Protestantism, I must say.
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« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2011, 05:09:46 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

I think his point is that you don't speak for all Catholics, regardless of what you may think. Wink
Any Catholic who would follow a former Pope into schism is not a Catholic at all.

Yes, and there are a bunch of sedevecantists who would agree with you that you're a schismatic. Wink
Oh well. They are not Catholics either.

Says you.  They say otherwise.   angel
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« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2011, 05:31:47 PM »

Technically sedevacantists who have elected a new "pope" are no longer sedevacantists but conclavists.

One of my favorites is "Pope" Michael I, who holds court in Kansas. All hail His Americanness!


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« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2011, 05:41:00 PM »

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
If the Pope ceased to believe in Catholic doctrine, he would no longer be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. Without occupying the Chair of Peter, he would lose his charism of infallibility when defining faith and morals.

But the pope can declare a new dogma in which he would cease to believe what the church believes that statement makes no sense
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« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2011, 05:44:15 PM »

But my favorite has to be the Spanish "Pope Gregory XVII". My Knights of Columbus friends and I sometimes do a little (a lot?) drinking and watch this hilarious video showing him having "visions". We laugh so hard that our sides ache.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGUQqNgffUM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2011, 06:33:02 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

I think his point is that you don't speak for all Catholics, regardless of what you may think. Wink
No, the Pope does... LMAO!
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« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2011, 06:39:06 PM »

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
If the Pope ceased to believe in Catholic doctrine, he would no longer be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. Without occupying the Chair of Peter, he would lose his charism of infallibility when defining faith and morals.

But the pope can declare a new dogma in which he would cease to believe what the church believes that statement makes no sense

Clarify
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« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2011, 08:32:06 PM »

Christ is risen!
Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
If the Pope ceased to believe in Catholic doctrine, he would no longer be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. Without occupying the Chair of Peter, he would lose his charism of infallibility when defining faith and morals.
According to the Vatican's pronouncements, once the pope sits in St. Peter's throne it is stuck to his seat until and if he voluntarily and without coercion resigns.
The Pope must be Catholic. If he is not Catholic, then he is not the Pope. Simple as that.
According to Pastor Aeternus, he gets to say what is Catholic, and no one gets to contradict him. Simple as that.
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« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2011, 08:36:37 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.
Would he cease to be pope if he refused to go?  Who would remove him? How? By what authority?
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« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2011, 08:41:27 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?
The very fact he was renouncing such things would indicate he had apostatized and, as Papist has already stated, would cease to be Catholic. A non-Catholic cannot be Pope.
I have a feeling that we may, in fact, have to repeats this somewhere between 10 and 3,591 times in this thread.
no, all you have to do is explain how you would remove "a non-Catholic pope." Your Pastor Aeternus makes it clear that your supreme pontiff is judged by no one:
Quote
Since the Roman Pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole Church, we likewise teach and declare that he is the supreme judge of the faithful, and that in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment. The sentence of the Apostolic See (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon. And so they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecumenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman Pontiff.
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« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2011, 08:43:27 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

I think his point is that you don't speak for all Catholics, regardless of what you may think. Wink
Any Catholic who would follow a former Pope into schism is not a Catholic at all.
LOL. And yet you all did.
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« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2011, 08:46:59 PM »

Christus resurrexit!

Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.
I find your dime-store interpretations of Catholic councils highly entertaining. Keep them up!
Well, return the favor and entertain us. Tell us how you would tell an Orthodox Pope who renounced Ultramontanism that he was wrong,  And even more entertaining: how and who would remove him?
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« Reply #53 on: May 06, 2011, 09:54:14 PM »

Christus resurrexit!

Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.
I find your dime-store interpretations of Catholic councils highly entertaining. Keep them up!
Well, return the favor and entertain us. Tell us how you would tell an Orthodox Pope who renounced Ultramontanism that he was wrong,  And even more entertaining: how and who would remove him?
This is unanswerable since none of our Popes will embrace Eastern Orthodoxy nor have any of them been ultramontanists.
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« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2011, 11:46:17 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

Huh....? What does that have to do with what I was saying?
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« Reply #55 on: May 06, 2011, 11:58:11 PM »

Christus resurrexit!

Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.
I find your dime-store interpretations of Catholic councils highly entertaining. Keep them up!
Well, return the favor and entertain us. Tell us how you would tell an Orthodox Pope who renounced Ultramontanism that he was wrong,  And even more entertaining: how and who would remove him?
This is unanswerable since none of our Popes will embrace Eastern Orthodoxy nor have any of them been ultramontanists.
Evading the question, we see.  If Honorius I were the present pope, you wouldn't be able remove him either.  And your supreme pontiffs have been ultramontanists for some time, which is why they are outside of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2011, 12:00:22 AM »

"If the pope became orthodox?"

--Ice cream cake at my house!

 angel

Seriously. I know I would throw a party.  Smiley
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« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2011, 12:02:26 AM »

Christus resurrexit!

Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.
I find your dime-store interpretations of Catholic councils highly entertaining. Keep them up!
Well, return the favor and entertain us. Tell us how you would tell an Orthodox Pope who renounced Ultramontanism that he was wrong,  And even more entertaining: how and who would remove him?
This is unanswerable since none of our Popes will embrace Eastern Orthodoxy nor have any of them been ultramontanists.
Evading the question, we see.  If Honorius I were the present pope, you wouldn't be able remove him either.  And your supreme pontiffs have been ultramontanists for some time, which is why they are outside of Orthodoxy.
I won't deny that our Popes are outside of capital "o" Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2011, 12:11:42 AM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

I think his point is that you don't speak for all Catholics, regardless of what you may think. Wink
Any Catholic who would follow a former Pope into schism is not a Catholic at all.

OK.....

But even if that's true, it's still essentially irrelevant to the original point. Those people are still essentially "registered" as Catholics and are included in the 1.1-1.3 billion figure. What this was originally in response to was the question of whether the number following the Pope to Orthodoxy would result in it being the largest Orthodox church. And given my estimate of the Russian Orthodox church constituting about 100 million people, that would only require 10% of those registered as Baptized Catholics to go along. Who you think it actually Catholic is rather irrelevant, as the Roman Orthodox church would still wind up being the largest.
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« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2011, 12:25:13 AM »

Christus resurrexit!

Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.
I find your dime-store interpretations of Catholic councils highly entertaining. Keep them up!
Well, return the favor and entertain us. Tell us how you would tell an Orthodox Pope who renounced Ultramontanism that he was wrong,  And even more entertaining: how and who would remove him?
This is unanswerable since none of our Popes will embrace Eastern Orthodoxy nor have any of them been ultramontanists.
Evading the question, we see.  If Honorius I were the present pope, you wouldn't be able remove him either.  And your supreme pontiffs have been ultramontanists for some time, which is why they are outside of Orthodoxy.
I won't deny that our Popes are outside of capital "o" Orthodoxy.
Not being orthodox, of course they are.
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« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2011, 01:05:24 AM »

Didn't they remove some popes of Old they didn't care for, By poisoning  them or suffacating them while they slept...... Grin I guess they can alway fall back on the old tried and true Methods ...... Grin
 stashko, stashko, stashko...had you limited your entire post to the first comment, we wouldn't have a problem.  But, since you felt the need to suggest that murder is a viable means of removing a heterodox bishop from his office, you are hereby put on a 45-day warning.  As always, appeal to Fr. George or Fr. Chris if you must.  -Schultz.
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« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2011, 01:43:44 AM »

Christ is risen!
Didn't they remove some popes of Old they didn't care for, By poisoning  them or suffacating them while they slept...... Grin I guess they can alway fall back on the old tried and true Methods ...... Grin
Ah..alas! Such cherished traditions have died out. police
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« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2011, 10:59:22 AM »

Hospodi pomiluj.  Enough already...we may as well speculate on a time when pigs could fly and how we would have to adapt our windshield wipers and umbrellas to the new reality.
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« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2011, 11:01:07 AM »

Hospodi pomiluj.  Enough already...we may as well speculate on a time when pigs could fly and how we would have to adapt our windshield wipers and umbrellas to the new reality.
I'm thinking that is more likely to happen. Wink
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« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2011, 12:15:14 PM »

Hospodi pomiluj.  Enough already...we may as well speculate on a time when pigs could fly and how we would have to adapt our windshield wipers and umbrellas to the new reality.
I'm thinking that is more likely to happen. Wink

Reunion can be acheived at the Council of Cincinnati.
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« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2011, 03:22:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.

Yes indeed, our distinctions and divisions are generally more deeply sociocultural, historical, and political than they are theological.  That being said, even if the Pope of Rome were to abolish the schism, and even if all the ranking Roman clergy were to be in agreeing sentiments, and even if the other jurisdictions of Orthodox further are in agreement amongst the ranking clergy, still, the people themselves harbor centuries of wounds and divides which can't be overcome by any top-down gestures.  The reunification of Our Churches must start from the bottom up, it comes from the people, from the laity, from the hearts of Christians themselves, and what the Bishops and clergy do is really more a kind of reaction than an instigation.

So unfortunately you are quite right, any top-down attempts at reunification would only further splinter and divide the Church, be it Roman Catholic, Orthodox, or otherwise Sad

We then need to pray in the Spirit of love that Christians began to heal these wounds that divide amongst ourselves.  We must learn to acknowledge the real causes of our divisions, and see them for what they are, rather than keep pushing them aside for to only further entrench them into the confusion of yet another generation..

Besides, even IF Constantinople and Rome were to formally unite, who on Earth could ever get not only all the us Orientals to jump on board Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #66 on: May 08, 2011, 09:15:50 AM »

Hi all, sorry I'm late to this thread.


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.

Iasmisry, your ignorance of sedevacantism is sad. I mean, have you even taken Sedevacantism 101?

Sorry, couldn't resist, but seriously, the standard Catholic position is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine: that a pope can cease to be pope in one of 3 ways. The first 2 ways are (obviously) death or voluntary resignation. The third way is by falling into heresy.

So, really, the sedevacantist position is pretty logical.
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« Reply #67 on: May 08, 2011, 05:42:03 PM »

Hi all, sorry I'm late to this thread.


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.

Iasmisry, your ignorance of sedevacantism is sad. I mean, have you even taken Sedevacantism 101?

Sorry, couldn't resist, but seriously, the standard Catholic position is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine: that a pope can cease to be pope in one of 3 ways. The first 2 ways are (obviously) death or voluntary resignation. The third way is by falling into heresy.

So, really, the sedevacantist position is pretty logical.

Woooooooooooo...Now you've stepped in it.... Getting popcorn ready.
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« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2011, 05:47:21 PM »

Iasmisry, your ignorance of sedevacantism is sad. I mean, have you even taken Sedevacantism 101?

Sorry, couldn't resist, but seriously, the standard Catholic position is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine: that a pope can cease to be pope in one of 3 ways. The first 2 ways are (obviously) death or voluntary resignation. The third way is by falling into heresy.

So, really, the sedevacantist position is pretty logical.
He is not ignorant of anything. It's an act. He loves to be snarky whenever possible. From his point of view, we are all just mindless sheep who follow whatever our Supreme Pontiff tells us. God forbid he ever admit that even one of us has half a brain.  Angry
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« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2011, 08:14:12 PM »

Woooooooooooo...Now you've stepped in it.... Getting popcorn ready.

Oh man, don't tell me I stepped in butter again.
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« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2011, 09:25:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.

Yes indeed, our distinctions and divisions are generally more deeply sociocultural, historical, and political than they are theological.  That being said, even if the Pope of Rome were to abolish the schism, and even if all the ranking Roman clergy were to be in agreeing sentiments, and even if the other jurisdictions of Orthodox further are in agreement amongst the ranking clergy, still, the people themselves harbor centuries of wounds and divides which can't be overcome by any top-down gestures.  The reunification of Our Churches must start from the bottom up, it comes from the people, from the laity, from the hearts of Christians themselves, and what the Bishops and clergy do is really more a kind of reaction than an instigation.

So unfortunately you are quite right, any top-down attempts at reunification would only further splinter and divide the Church, be it Roman Catholic, Orthodox, or otherwise Sad

We then need to pray in the Spirit of love that Christians began to heal these wounds that divide amongst ourselves.  We must learn to acknowledge the real causes of our divisions, and see them for what they are, rather than keep pushing them aside for to only further entrench them into the confusion of yet another generation..

Besides, even IF Constantinople and Rome were to formally unite, who on Earth could ever get not only all the us Orientals to jump on board Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Very perceptive. Thank you.
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« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2011, 03:15:54 AM »

Hi all, sorry I'm late to this thread.


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.

Iasmisry, your ignorance of sedevacantism is sad. I mean, have you even taken Sedevacantism 101?

Sorry, couldn't resist, but seriously, the standard Catholic position is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine: that a pope can cease to be pope in one of 3 ways. The first 2 ways are (obviously) death or voluntary resignation. The third way is by falling into heresy.

So, really, the sedevacantist position is pretty logical.

Sedes aren't really recognized as full fledged Catholics anyway, so you have to take their rantings with a grain of salt. 
Plus, St. Robert Bellarmine was just a man, and not the Church unto himself.  His theories are just theological speculations and have no force of law in the RCC whatsoever.  Truth is, only an Ecumenical Council of the RCC can depose the Pope from his office.
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« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2011, 07:20:44 AM »

This is unanswerable since none of our Popes will embrace Eastern Orthodoxy nor have any of them been ultramontanists.

Forgive me for going off-topic, but you're saying that no pope has ever been ultramontanist?
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« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2011, 09:14:40 AM »

I am the OP and actually asked this question to make a point infallibility is infallibility. Reading on this and RC websites and a few books on the councils(not claiming to be an expert) there is little doubt that the bishop of Rome was sometimes called upon to settle disputes or agree with some council ruling or mediate. However ther is a hugh difference between this and single handedly pronouncing doctrine, a practice for which I can find no support. The other point is that even if the pope wanted to reunite, the orthodox wouldn't let him. On this site, which is very informative there is some small minded bickering especially between the Russian church and the Greek over who should be first. If even half of the RCC became orthodox the fight would be over because they would represent the real Rome and be the largest. Having said that I am about 80 percent sure that I am going to become a catechumen in a WRO church, largely base on the shared authority in the OC vs one man rule. I do love the western rite service no guitars!
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« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2011, 09:14:48 AM »

I think the R.C. position here is glaringly circular and self-defeating.

The Pope alone sits in 'Peter's Chair' and is infallible, and all good Catholics must follow him as their shepherd; as the Vicar of Christ... unless he says something you disagree with?

The argument is that the Pope cannot become Orthodox because by doing so he would cease to be Pope?

But the Pope was Orthodox in the beginning! If the Pope was able to lead the flock away from Orthodoxy - then there is no valid reason why he can't lead them back to where they came from.

And... if the Pope somehow automatically ceases to be Pope upon entering into heresy then he has (IMO at least) already ceased to be Pope generations; long and ever ago, hasn't he?

Even stranger to me are the ones who claim to be Roman Catholic and say that good Catholics must follow the Pope... and then they tell you that the Pope actually isn't the Pope... and when you ask them just who the Pope is - they can't even tell you who the Pope is!

They say he's hiding!

Then in the next breath, they call Orthodox Christians 'schismatics' because they're not in communion w/ the Pope.

??



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« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2011, 09:38:18 AM »

I think the R.C. position here is glaringly circular and self-defeating.

The Pope alone sits in 'Peter's Chair' and is infallible, and all good Catholics must follow him as their shepherd; as the Vicar of Christ... unless he says something you disagree with?

Where did you get that from?
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« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2011, 09:40:41 AM »

The other point is that even if the pope wanted to reunite, the orthodox wouldn't let him.

I don't know what you mean by "even if the pope wanted to reunite". The pope does want to reunite. The problem is that you apparently understand that to mean that he would convert to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #77 on: May 09, 2011, 10:23:37 AM »

The other point is that even if the pope wanted to reunite, the orthodox wouldn't let him.

I don't know what you mean by "even if the pope wanted to reunite". The pope does want to reunite. The problem is that you apparently understand that to mean that he would convert to Orthodoxy.

I think, based on Rome's policy concerning communing Orthodox, this is already the case. The only practical step would be for Orthodox churches to reciprocate this gesture. That being said, I don't see it happening on a widespread official scale anytime soon, at least not until our disagreements are resolved.
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« Reply #78 on: May 09, 2011, 12:16:59 PM »

This is unanswerable since none of our Popes will embrace Eastern Orthodoxy nor have any of them been ultramontanists.

Forgive me for going off-topic, but you're saying that no pope has ever been ultramontanist?
Do you have some in mind that has been? If so, who and why?
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« Reply #79 on: May 09, 2011, 12:23:40 PM »

The other point is that even if the pope wanted to reunite, the orthodox wouldn't let him.

I don't know what you mean by "even if the pope wanted to reunite". The pope does want to reunite. The problem is that you apparently understand that to mean that he would convert to Orthodoxy.

I think, based on Rome's policy concerning communing Orthodox, this is already the case.

I would disagree, in a way, with your logic, because I believe that he also wants to reunite with Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. who aren't normally admitted to communion.
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« Reply #80 on: May 09, 2011, 01:12:40 PM »

The other point is that even if the pope wanted to reunite, the orthodox wouldn't let him.

I don't know what you mean by "even if the pope wanted to reunite". The pope does want to reunite. The problem is that you apparently understand that to mean that he would convert to Orthodoxy.

I think, based on Rome's policy concerning communing Orthodox, this is already the case.

I would disagree, in a way, with your logic, because I believe that he also wants to reunite with Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. who aren't normally admitted to communion.

Yes, but if, for example, I was to approach the chalice in a RC church, the priest would have to (according to your canon law) admit me as long as I am properly prepared. This is not the case with Anglicans, Lutherans, etc.
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« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2011, 12:37:11 PM »

The other point is that even if the pope wanted to reunite, the orthodox wouldn't let him.

I don't know what you mean by "even if the pope wanted to reunite". The pope does want to reunite. The problem is that you apparently understand that to mean that he would convert to Orthodoxy.

I think, based on Rome's policy concerning communing Orthodox, this is already the case.

I would disagree, in a way, with your logic, because I believe that he also wants to reunite with Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. who aren't normally admitted to communion.

Yes, but if, for example, I was to approach the chalice in a RC church, the priest would have to (according to your canon law) admit me as long as I am properly prepared. This is not the case with Anglicans, Lutherans, etc.
That is due to our beliefs about Apostolic Succession. We believe you (the Orthodox Church) has it as well as the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East. It does not mean we are fully united or that we value unity less with the Protestant sects. We acknowledge that we are much closer to unity with the Orthodox than with groups without Holy Orders.
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« Reply #82 on: May 10, 2011, 02:09:57 PM »

Christ is risen!
Hi all, sorry I'm late to this thread.


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.

Iasmisry, your ignorance of sedevacantism is sad. I mean, have you even taken Sedevacantism 101?

Sorry, couldn't resist, but seriously, the standard Catholic position is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine: that a pope can cease to be pope in one of 3 ways. The first 2 ways are (obviously) death or voluntary resignation. The third way is by falling into heresy.

So, really, the sedevacantist position is pretty logical.
Just making a mental note, penciling this post in for a response.
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« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2011, 05:37:08 PM »

Thanks for the reply.

I think the R.C. position here is glaringly circular and self-defeating.

The Pope alone sits in 'Peter's Chair' and is infallible, and all good Catholics must follow him as their shepherd; as the Vicar of Christ... unless he says something you disagree with?

Where did you get that from?


(...)

Sorry, couldn't resist, but seriously, the standard Catholic position is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine: that a pope can cease to be pope in one of 3 ways. The first 2 ways are (obviously) death or voluntary resignation. The third way is by falling into heresy.

 

Who (within the R.C. ranks) can declare that the Pope has 'fallen into heresy'?

†IC XC†
†NI KA†
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« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2011, 05:55:19 PM »

I think the R.C. position here is glaringly circular and self-defeating.

The Pope alone sits in 'Peter's Chair' and is infallible, and all good Catholics must follow him as their shepherd; as the Vicar of Christ... unless he says something you disagree with?

Where did you get that from?

He got that from good ole' Roman Catholic teaching, mate.
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« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2011, 10:28:50 PM »

This is unanswerable since none of our Popes will embrace Eastern Orthodoxy nor have any of them been ultramontanists.

Forgive me for going off-topic, but you're saying that no pope has ever been ultramontanist?
Do you have some in mind that has been? If so, who and why?

My thinking was a little more general.

I find that there isn't a strict consensus among Catholics concerning ultramontanism. But, even so, I think it's rare to hear someone claim that there has never been an ultramontanist pope.
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« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2011, 10:38:39 PM »

Thanks for the reply.

I think the R.C. position here is glaringly circular and self-defeating.

The Pope alone sits in 'Peter's Chair' and is infallible, and all good Catholics must follow him as their shepherd; as the Vicar of Christ... unless he says something you disagree with?

Where did you get that from?


(...)

Sorry, couldn't resist, but seriously, the standard Catholic position is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine: that a pope can cease to be pope in one of 3 ways. The first 2 ways are (obviously) death or voluntary resignation. The third way is by falling into heresy.

 

Who (within the R.C. ranks) can declare that the Pope has 'fallen into heresy'?

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

I guess I've never really looked into that (or even felt a need to look into it). It's enough for me to know that, if a pope did actually fall into heresy, he would cease to be pope (according to Bellarmine, that is).

You realize, I trust, that I don't exactly lie awake at night worrying that I might arise in the morning to find that Benedict has fallen into heresy.
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« Reply #87 on: May 11, 2011, 05:21:46 AM »

Thanks for the reply.

I think the R.C. position here is glaringly circular and self-defeating.

The Pope alone sits in 'Peter's Chair' and is infallible, and all good Catholics must follow him as their shepherd; as the Vicar of Christ... unless he says something you disagree with?

I guess I wonder how this would make the Pope a heretic since we allow the orthodox to take communion with us and not vice-versa.
Where did you get that from?


(...)

Sorry, couldn't resist, but seriously, the standard Catholic position is the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine: that a pope can cease to be pope in one of 3 ways. The first 2 ways are (obviously) death or voluntary resignation. The third way is by falling into heresy.

 

Who (within the R.C. ranks) can declare that the Pope has 'fallen into heresy'?

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

I guess I've never really looked into that (or even felt a need to look into it). It's enough for me to know that, if a pope did actually fall into heresy, he would cease to be pope (according to Bellarmine, that is).

You realize, I trust, that I don't exactly lie awake at night worrying that I might arise in the morning to find that Benedict has fallen into heresy.
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« Reply #88 on: May 11, 2011, 07:10:55 AM »

Thanks for the reply,

I'm glad Benedict doesn't keep you up at night... really.

But that was a non-answer.

I didn't really know how to respond if you guys were expecting one after that.

You've never looked into it. Well maybe you should.

We know that falling into heresy doesn't make him magically cease to be Pope... what - does he just vanish or something? We know that Popes in the past who promulgated heresies indeed remained Pope afterwards.

Who instituted the insertion of the filioque, etc?

So please explain to me how it would function in a real-world situation that the Pope would cease to be Pope... Who among you could declare him to be wrong and who among you could overrule him?

Thanks,

†IC XC†
†NI KA†




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« Reply #89 on: May 11, 2011, 07:39:26 AM »

This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.
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« Reply #90 on: May 11, 2011, 09:02:29 AM »

This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Under the circumstances I think you would be much happier in Orthodoxy.  I don't see why you would even want to look back.

Mary
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« Reply #91 on: May 11, 2011, 10:15:07 AM »

This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random).

That's another thing I'm not too worried about; but if that did somehow come to pass, it wouldn't make the pope a heretic.
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« Reply #92 on: May 11, 2011, 10:20:45 AM »

Thanks for the reply,

I'm glad Benedict doesn't keep you up at night... really.

But that was a non-answer.

I didn't really know how to respond if you guys were expecting one after that.

I don't speak for the other Catholic posters, but I wasn't expecting a response. I was just stating a fact.

You've never looked into it. Well maybe you should.

To quote Alan Rickman, "Thank you, Mr. Cowboy, I'll take it under advisement." Grin

We know that falling into heresy doesn't make him magically cease to be Pope...

I wouldn't say "magically", but yes falling into heresy doesn't make him cease to be Pope.

what - does he just vanish or something?

No no, you're thinking of when he puts on the ring.

So please explain to me how it would function in a real-world situation that the Pope would cease to be Pope... Who among you could declare him to be wrong and who among you could overrule him?

I can't tell you that. (Have you already forgotten I said I never looked into it?)

To be a little blunt, sedevacantism has always seemed like kind of a joke to me (not meaning any uncharitableness toward those who adhere to it).
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« Reply #93 on: May 11, 2011, 10:25:04 AM »

This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Under the circumstances I think you would be much happier in Orthodoxy.  I don't see why you would even want to look back.

Mary

The real answer to Mr. Dunbar's question is that the pope can be deposed by the Church if and when the Church decides that the pope has removed himself from the Church by his teachings and his actions.  If under those circumstances the pope refuses to vacate the office, he can be removed.

M.
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« Reply #94 on: May 11, 2011, 10:27:59 AM »

Christos Voskrese!
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Under the circumstances I think you would be much happier in Orthodoxy.  I don't see why you would even want to look back.
The circumstances being, of course, that there is no mechanism-according to the Vatican-to tell the pope of Rome is a heretic, and that there have been "crazy popes."
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« Reply #95 on: May 11, 2011, 10:29:53 AM »

Christos Voskrese!
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Under the circumstances I think you would be much happier in Orthodoxy.  I don't see why you would even want to look back.

The real answer to Mr. Dunbar's question is that the pope can be deposed by the Church if and when the Church decides that the pope has removed himself from the Church by his teachings and his actions.  If under those circumstances the pope refuses to vacate the office, he can be removed.
Care to quote a canon or two (from the Vatican's code, not the Pedalion. We know he can be deposed), or some other authority recognized by the Vatican on that?
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« Reply #96 on: May 11, 2011, 10:39:37 AM »

Christos Voskrese!
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Under the circumstances I think you would be much happier in Orthodoxy.  I don't see why you would even want to look back.

The real answer to Mr. Dunbar's question is that the pope can be deposed by the Church if and when the Church decides that the pope has removed himself from the Church by his teachings and his actions.  If under those circumstances the pope refuses to vacate the office, he can be removed.
Care to quote a canon or two (from the Vatican's code, not the Pedalion. We know he can be deposed), or some other authority recognized by the Vatican on that?

Nope.  Nor do I care to quote a Canon saying that the pope can retire.  And he can.  Nor do I care to quote a canon that says that a pope can be deposed for reasons of ill health, mental or physical.  But he can be.

But the way is there in the canons and in the Holy Fathers.  It's why we have canon lawyers.  To tell us how to do these things.

Absence of direct evidence is never evidence of absence.

Stop trying to teach grand-ma how to suck eggs.
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« Reply #97 on: May 11, 2011, 11:09:07 AM »

This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Pope Alexander Sixtus, I think, the Borgia one, is splendidly portrayed by Jeremy Irons, in all his decadence on Showtime.
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« Reply #98 on: May 11, 2011, 11:43:30 AM »

This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Pope Alexander Sixtus, I think, the Borgia one, is splendidly portrayed by Jeremy Irons, in all his decadence on Showtime.

Was he a heretic?...or a quintessential sinner?   Cheesy
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« Reply #99 on: May 11, 2011, 12:53:13 PM »

Christos Voskrese!
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.
Under the circumstances I think you would be much happier in Orthodoxy.  I don't see why you would even want to look back.
The real answer to Mr. Dunbar's question is that the pope can be deposed by the Church if and when the Church decides that the pope has removed himself from the Church by his teachings and his actions.  If under those circumstances the pope refuses to vacate the office, he can be removed.
Care to quote a canon or two (from the Vatican's code, not the Pedalion. We know he can be deposed), or some other authority recognized by the Vatican on that?
Nope.  Nor do I care to quote a Canon saying that the pope can retire.  And he can.

And I can quote the caon:
Quote
CCL 332§2. If it happens that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that the resignation is made freely and properly manifested but not that it is accepted by anyone.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P16.HTM

Nor do I care to quote a canon that says that a pope can be deposed for reasons of ill health, mental or physical.
Because you cannot quote non-existent canons, nor invoke non-existent authority.
But he can be.
Because you say so?  Don't see that in the Vatican's rules.

But the way is there in the canons and in the Holy Fathers.  It's why we have canon lawyers.  To tell us how to do these things.
Ah, yest, that eternal monstrocity of a monument to clericalism, the Vatican's "magisterium."  They swallowed their tail and painted you in a corner I'm afraid:
Quote
Can. 335 When the Roman See is vacant or entirely impeded, nothing is to be altered in the governance of the universal Church; the special laws issued for these circumstances, however, are to be observed.

Absence of direct evidence is never evidence of absence.
But direct evidence means absence of an opposng argument.
Stop trying to teach grand-ma how to suck eggs.
just telling her don't want to smell the stench of the rotten egg she has laid.
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« Reply #100 on: May 11, 2011, 01:07:15 PM »

This what if scenario is not going to happen, unless the Holy Spirit would intervene in a dramatic way.

As has been mentioned by others, if the Bishop of Rome would join the Orthodox Church, it could be only as an individual. I highly doubt that many of the Roman Catholic faithful would come along with him. His act of becoming Orthodox would most likely be labeled as schismatic by the Vatican.
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« Reply #101 on: May 11, 2011, 01:09:42 PM »

This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Under the circumstances I think you would be much happier in Orthodoxy.  I don't see why you would even want to look back.

Mary
What do you mean by this?
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« Reply #102 on: May 11, 2011, 01:16:49 PM »

You are absolutely wrong on this one.   You do not know what you are talking about here and cannot prove I am wrong any more than I can prove that I am right save to say what I am telling you is a true understanding of the Catholic Church of my baptism.  It is what I have been taught by those with the authority to teach Catholic doctrine and law.

Blessings,

M.

Christos Voskrese!
This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.
Under the circumstances I think you would be much happier in Orthodoxy.  I don't see why you would even want to look back.
The real answer to Mr. Dunbar's question is that the pope can be deposed by the Church if and when the Church decides that the pope has removed himself from the Church by his teachings and his actions.  If under those circumstances the pope refuses to vacate the office, he can be removed.
Care to quote a canon or two (from the Vatican's code, not the Pedalion. We know he can be deposed), or some other authority recognized by the Vatican on that?
Nope.  Nor do I care to quote a Canon saying that the pope can retire.  And he can.

And I can quote the caon:
Quote
CCL 332§2. If it happens that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that the resignation is made freely and properly manifested but not that it is accepted by anyone.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P16.HTM

Nor do I care to quote a canon that says that a pope can be deposed for reasons of ill health, mental or physical.
Because you cannot quote non-existent canons, nor invoke non-existent authority.
But he can be.
Because you say so?  Don't see that in the Vatican's rules.

But the way is there in the canons and in the Holy Fathers.  It's why we have canon lawyers.  To tell us how to do these things.
Ah, yest, that eternal monstrocity of a monument to clericalism, the Vatican's "magisterium."  They swallowed their tail and painted you in a corner I'm afraid:
Quote
Can. 335 When the Roman See is vacant or entirely impeded, nothing is to be altered in the governance of the universal Church; the special laws issued for these circumstances, however, are to be observed.

Absence of direct evidence is never evidence of absence.
But direct evidence means absence of an opposng argument.
Stop trying to teach grand-ma how to suck eggs.
just telling her don't want to smell the stench of the rotten egg she has laid.
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« Reply #103 on: May 11, 2011, 03:27:08 PM »

Christos Voskrese!
You are absolutely wrong on this one.   You do not know what you are talking about here and cannot prove I am wrong any more than I can prove that I am right save to say what I am telling you is a true understanding of the Catholic Church of my baptism.  It is what I have been taught by those with the authority to teach Catholic doctrine and law.
Ah, the appeal to (unnamed and uncited) authority! How Ultramontanist, and worthy of the Vatican.

But such a poor argument, and  a great fallacy.
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« Reply #104 on: May 11, 2011, 03:29:04 PM »

This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Pope Alexander Sixtus, I think, the Borgia one, is splendidly portrayed by Jeremy Irons, in all his decadence on Showtime.

Was he a heretic?...or a quintessential sinner?   Cheesy

In the end does it matter? His recorded sinfulness played a major role in the schisms and wars of the next centuries.
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« Reply #105 on: May 11, 2011, 03:30:08 PM »

Christos Voskrese!
You are absolutely wrong on this one.   You do not know what you are talking about here and cannot prove I am wrong any more than I can prove that I am right save to say what I am telling you is a true understanding of the Catholic Church of my baptism.  It is what I have been taught by those with the authority to teach Catholic doctrine and law.
Ah, the appeal to (unnamed and uncited) authority! How Ultramontanist, and worthy of the Vatican.

But such a poor argument, and  a great fallacy.

 laugh laugh laugh laugh

Isa'nfallibility!!
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« Reply #106 on: May 11, 2011, 03:31:33 PM »

This is the heart of the problem and the reason I am inquiring into Orthodoxy. Indeed, who can tell the Pope he is heretic if he does something like declaring open communion with Lutherns(not a slam, just picked at random). Surely there is a mechanism? Maybe a better informed RC could chime in. Please don't tell me there have been no crazy popes,there have been Neo-pagan popes.

Pope Alexander Sixtus, I think, the Borgia one, is splendidly portrayed by Jeremy Irons, in all his decadence on Showtime.

Was he a heretic?...or a quintessential sinner?   Cheesy

In the end does it matter? His recorded sinfulness played a major role in the schisms and wars of the next centuries.

Since Christ came for sinners it matters indeed.  Did Jesus's own life on earth not leave a maelstrom behind?...yet he is the very essence of the good.

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« Reply #107 on: May 11, 2011, 03:35:46 PM »

Christ is risen!
This what if scenario is not going to happen, unless the Holy Spirit would intervene in a dramatic way.

As has been mentioned by others, if the Bishop of Rome would join the Orthodox Church, it could be only as an individual. I highly doubt that many of the Roman Catholic faithful would come along with him. His act of becoming Orthodox would most likely be labeled as schismatic by the Vatican.
According to the Vatican, their pope is judged by no one.
Quote
Can. 331 The bishop of the Roman Church, in whom continues the office given by the Lord uniquely to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, is the head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the pastor of the universal Church on earth. By virtue of his office he possesses supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, which he is always able to exercise freely.

Can. 333 §1. By virtue of his office, the Roman Pontiff not only possesses power offer the universal Church but also obtains the primacy of ordinary power offer all particular churches and groups of them. Moreover, this primacy strengthens and protects the proper, ordinary, and immediate power which bishops possess in the particular churches entrusted to their care.

§2. In fulfilling the office of supreme pastor of the Church, the Roman Pontiff is always joined in communion with the other bishops and with the universal Church. He nevertheless has the right, according to the needs of the Church, to determine the manner, whether personal or collegial, of exercising this office.

§3. No appeal or recourse is permitted against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P16.HTM
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« Reply #108 on: May 11, 2011, 03:38:23 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
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« Reply #109 on: May 11, 2011, 03:42:15 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
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« Reply #110 on: May 11, 2011, 03:44:29 PM »

Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.
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« Reply #111 on: May 11, 2011, 03:53:12 PM »

Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.
You seem to be confused. 1054 was the date when you all defected from Catholic unity.
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« Reply #112 on: May 11, 2011, 03:54:14 PM »

Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.

At the very least in those days they followed him into schism and likely would do the same or beyond today.
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« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2011, 03:58:19 PM »

Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.

At the very least in those days they followed him into schism and likely would do the same or beyond today.

You loose track of the fact that the east was seen as the schismatics, not the west.  So they went nowhere according to their own understandings at the time.

When the "true" Orthodox Churches split from the "untrue" Canonical ones...who believes that they are schismatics?  Is the offender schismatic or the one who takes offense?
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« Reply #114 on: May 11, 2011, 04:08:39 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!

I guess it would depend on what the heresy was.
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« Reply #115 on: May 11, 2011, 04:29:09 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.
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« Reply #116 on: May 11, 2011, 04:37:45 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

That is...as they say...a no-brainer!! ..... angel

In fact our ignorance is worse, to these worldly eyes, than our heresy.
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« Reply #117 on: May 11, 2011, 04:38:40 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

Well, I guess in the way that Catholics are stupid to the SSPV. (That made sense, right?)
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« Reply #118 on: May 11, 2011, 04:45:34 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

Well, I guess in the way that Catholics are stupid to the SSPV. (That made sense, right?)

Yes.  Or the way in that I am stupid in your own eyes. 

So the question remains who is really in the wrong. 

The offender or the one who takes offense?
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« Reply #119 on: May 11, 2011, 04:53:15 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!

I guess it would depend on what the heresy was.

How about Papal Infaliability?
How about the Immaculate Conception?
How about the Assumption of the Theotokos without her Dying?
How about the filioque?
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« Reply #120 on: May 11, 2011, 04:56:27 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!

I guess it would depend on what the heresy was.

How about Papal Infaliability?
How about the Immaculate Conception?
How about the Assumption of the Theotokos without her Dying?
How about the filioque?


The third one is not taught by my Church and the other three are not heretical.
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« Reply #121 on: May 11, 2011, 04:57:45 PM »


How about Papal Infaliability?
How about the Immaculate Conception?
How about the Assumption of the Theotokos without her Dying?
How about the filioque?


What about Papal Supremacy? How could the Vatican give up those powers?

BTW, what happened with Pope John Paul I?
Was he killed? And what is to prevent a "rogue" pope from being murdered?
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« Reply #122 on: May 11, 2011, 05:04:40 PM »

Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.

At the very least in those days they followed him into schism and likely would do the same or beyond today.

You loose track of the fact that the east was seen as the schismatics, not the west.  So they went nowhere according to their own understandings at the time.

When the "true" Orthodox Churches split from the "untrue" Canonical ones...who believes that they are schismatics?  Is the offender schismatic or the one who takes offense?

Well, I think that whether the east perceived the west as being in schism or vice versa certainly depends upon which side of the mountain one is standing on?

Frankly, after leaving the Greek Catholic Church as a matter of conscience, when my grandparents were called 'schizmatik!' by their neighbors and relatives, I suspect that although it hurt, on one level they felt a bit of 'pride' in being so labelled.

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« Reply #123 on: May 11, 2011, 05:05:09 PM »

Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.
You seem to be confused. 1054 was the date when you all defected from Catholic unity.
Since you all are inventive when it comes to theology, do be more inventive in your retorts. You who decided to uphold the excommunication of a papal legate from a dead pope.  You seem even confused on what the Vatican teaches, let alone the Orthodox teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
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« Reply #124 on: May 11, 2011, 05:17:37 PM »

Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.
You seem to be confused. 1054 was the date when you all defected from Catholic unity.
Since you all are inventive when it comes to theology, do be more inventive in your retorts. You who decided to uphold the excommunication of a papal legate from a dead pope.  You seem even confused on what the Vatican teaches, let alone the Orthodox teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
I think you're the one who is confused. Wink
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« Reply #125 on: May 11, 2011, 05:23:47 PM »

Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.
You seem to be confused. 1054 was the date when you all defected from Catholic unity.
Since you all are inventive when it comes to theology, do be more inventive in your retorts. You who decided to uphold the excommunication of a papal legate from a dead pope.  You seem even confused on what the Vatican teaches, let alone the Orthodox teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Until the proverbial cows come home, Roman Catholic apologists will no doubt say we Orthodox left the unity of the Church in 1054 although the final separation and schism was not universally in force for at least another 200 years. Likewise, the Orthodox will not doubt reply, no we didn't leave - you did.

This is however an Orthodox board, and I think that it is safe to assume that all of our little band of 'hopelessly divided and leaderless schismatics'  Wink  accept the latter position as our starting and end point! We hold as a tenet of our Faith that Orthodoxy is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and for some of us, we sadly lament the schism of the Church of Rome and her separation by choice from the Pentarchy. Others do not so lament the current state of affairs.

For us, in order for the Pope of Rome to become Orthodox, he and the Church of Rome, would have to accept their place within a restored Pentarchy and renounce those actions which led them to heterodoxy.

Were that to happen, there surely would be those followers of both the Roman Church and of the Orthodox who would reject such an event and additional schism would be the result. It is pointless to speculate on numbers or percentages. If a Pope of Rome left without his Church, well I suspect that Rome would find a rule and chose a new Pope.

Surely however, if this did occur as the will of God, a good Roman Catholic and a good Orthodox Christian would be hard pressed to view the same as heresy. Figuring that part out is the tricky part!
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« Reply #126 on: May 11, 2011, 05:26:05 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

Well, I guess in the way that Catholics are stupid to the SSPV. (That made sense, right?)

Yes.  Or the way in that I am stupid in your own eyes. 

Papist and elijahmaria,

At the risk of sounding cliche, I think you both need to get over yourselves a little bit. Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they consider you to be stupid.
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« Reply #127 on: May 11, 2011, 05:29:53 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

Well, I guess in the way that Catholics are stupid to the SSPV. (That made sense, right?)

Yes.  Or the way in that I am stupid in your own eyes. 

Papist and elijahmaria,

At the risk of sounding cliche, I think you both need to get over yourselves a little bit. Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they consider you to be stupid.

 laugh  Oh I don't think you think I am stupid because you disagree with me.  I think you think I am stupid because I don't fight with you when you come here to bait me for no apparent reason.   laugh

Christ is Risen!
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« Reply #128 on: May 11, 2011, 05:32:58 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

Well, I guess in the way that Catholics are stupid to the SSPV. (That made sense, right?)

Yes.  Or the way in that I am stupid in your own eyes. 

Papist and elijahmaria,

At the risk of sounding cliche, I think you both need to get over yourselves a little bit. Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they consider you to be stupid.

 laugh  Oh I don't think you think I am stupid because you disagree with me.  I think you think I am stupid because I don't fight with you when you come here to bait me for no apparent reason.   laugh

Christ is Risen!

Are you serious?
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« Reply #129 on: May 11, 2011, 05:33:58 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.

A. Irregardless - an informal term commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective. Hm, Ive never met anyone who's never heard of that word, maybe you just live under a rock.

B. From your point of view I guess he wouldnt. Let me just say that most RC that I deal with dont even properly believe/follow their faith, so they would follow a "heretical" Pope.
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« Reply #130 on: May 11, 2011, 05:35:30 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

Well, I guess in the way that Catholics are stupid to the SSPV. (That made sense, right?)

Yes.  Or the way in that I am stupid in your own eyes. 

Papist and elijahmaria,

At the risk of sounding cliche, I think you both need to get over yourselves a little bit. Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they consider you to be stupid.

 laugh  Oh I don't think you think I am stupid because you disagree with me.  I think you think I am stupid because I don't fight with you when you come here to bait me for no apparent reason.   laugh

Christ is Risen!

Are you serious?

No.  I am Vega...

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #131 on: May 11, 2011, 05:35:44 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

No, it's just that I grew up Roman Catholic, so I kind of know you're side of the world.  Cool
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« Reply #132 on: May 11, 2011, 05:40:57 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

No, it's just that I grew up Roman Catholic, so I kind of know you're side of the world.  Cool

Well I'm still on that side of the world and your view looks pretty skewed to me...

Also you look pretty young so did you grow up in parishes with 80 families or 500 or more families. 

Makes a difference in how we get to "see" each other.
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« Reply #133 on: May 11, 2011, 05:42:13 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

No, it's just that I grew up Roman Catholic, so I kind of know you're side of the world.  Cool

I was born and raised a Catholic.
I also studied at two Catholic universities, and was a Dominican Tertiary.
And yes, if the Vatican can find a way to dispatch of a rogue Pope, they will.
Most likely, he will be asked to resign.
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« Reply #134 on: May 11, 2011, 05:45:59 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

No, it's just that I grew up Roman Catholic, so I kind of know you're side of the world.  Cool

Well I'm still on that side of the world and your view looks pretty skewed to me...

Also you look pretty young so did you grow up in parishes with 80 families or 500 or more families. 

Makes a difference in how we get to "see" each other.

Buddy, I grew up in one of the most highly Catholic parts of America. I used to be a HARDCORE Catholic, like I got my apologetics on against any non-Roman Catholic.

I guess if youre young you must be ignorant, eh?  Cool
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« Reply #135 on: May 11, 2011, 05:47:37 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

No, it's just that I grew up Roman Catholic, so I kind of know you're side of the world.  Cool

I was born and raised a Catholic.
I also studied at two Catholic universities, and was a Dominican Tertiary.
And yes, if the Vatican can find a way to dispatch of a rogue Pope, they will.
Most likely, he will be asked to resign.

I guess it depends on how far he goes. There has to be a line somewhere, but it seems the RCC has gotten so liberal, I dont know how far left that line is.
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« Reply #136 on: May 11, 2011, 05:50:10 PM »


I guess if youre young you must be ignorant, eh?  Cool

Not always
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« Reply #137 on: May 11, 2011, 05:53:08 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.

A. Irregardless - an informal term commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective. Hm, Ive never met anyone who's never heard of that word, maybe you just live under a rock.

He didn't said he had never heard of it, but that it isn't a real word.

Actually, I was speaking with a conservative Latin Catholic priest just about 10 days ago, and he said "irregardless". (That's not really relevant, I just thought it was an interesting coincidence.)
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« Reply #138 on: May 11, 2011, 05:55:24 PM »

They will know we are Christians by our love.
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« Reply #139 on: May 11, 2011, 05:56:58 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.

A. Irregardless - an informal term commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective. Hm, Ive never met anyone who's never heard of that word, maybe you just live under a rock.

He didn't said he had never heard of it, but that it isn't a real word.

Actually, I was speaking with a conservative Latin Catholic priest just about 10 days ago, and he said "irregardless". (That's not really relevant, I just thought it was an interesting coincidence.)


Neither is Fair Dinkum, Bizzo, Jumbuck,or G'Day, but does it make me an idiot for saying them?
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« Reply #140 on: May 11, 2011, 05:57:49 PM »


I guess if youre young you must be ignorant, eh?  Cool

Not always

Only ones who disagree with you?
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« Reply #141 on: May 11, 2011, 06:00:36 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

No, it's just that I grew up Roman Catholic, so I kind of know you're side of the world.  Cool

Well I'm still on that side of the world and your view looks pretty skewed to me...

Also you look pretty young so did you grow up in parishes with 80 families or 500 or more families. 

Makes a difference in how we get to "see" each other.

Buddy, I grew up in one of the most highly Catholic parts of America. I used to be a HARDCORE Catholic,

Good for you. Sounds like you were a bit too HARDCORE, though...
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« Reply #142 on: May 11, 2011, 06:01:03 PM »


I guess if youre young you must be ignorant, eh?  Cool

Not always

Only ones who disagree with you?

Not always.
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« Reply #143 on: May 11, 2011, 06:02:13 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

No, it's just that I grew up Roman Catholic, so I kind of know you're side of the world.  Cool

Well I'm still on that side of the world and your view looks pretty skewed to me...

Also you look pretty young so did you grow up in parishes with 80 families or 500 or more families. 

Makes a difference in how we get to "see" each other.

Buddy, I grew up in one of the most highly Catholic parts of America. I used to be a HARDCORE Catholic,

Good for you. Sounds like you were a bit too HARDCORE, though...

LOL, how so? I wouldnt say hardcore as in too far, I guess I meant devoted to my faith.
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« Reply #144 on: May 11, 2011, 06:02:48 PM »


Just me?
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« Reply #145 on: May 11, 2011, 06:04:03 PM »

A. Irregardless - an informal term commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective. Hm, Ive never met anyone who's never heard of that word, maybe you just live under a rock.
Oh I've heard it, it's just incorrect English. Say "regardless."

B. From your point of view I guess he wouldnt. Let me just say that most RC that I deal with dont even properly believe/follow their faith, so they would follow a "heretical" Pope.
All that proves is that you know a lot of people who aren't very good Catholics. Congratulations. I'm sure there are Eastern Orthodox Christians out there that don't follow their faith very well too.
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« Reply #146 on: May 11, 2011, 06:06:11 PM »

A. Irregardless - an informal term commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective. Hm, Ive never met anyone who's never heard of that word, maybe you just live under a rock.
Oh I've heard it, it's just incorrect English. Say "regardless."

B. From your point of view I guess he wouldnt. Let me just say that most RC that I deal with dont even properly believe/follow their faith, so they would follow a "heretical" Pope.
All that proves is that you know a lot of people who aren't very good Catholics. Congratulations. I'm sure there are Eastern Orthodox Christians out there that don't follow their faith very well too.

Neither is Fair Dinkum, Bizzo, Jumbuck,or G'Day, but does it make me an idiot for saying them?

But Im pretty sure there are more RC who dont follow their dogmatic beliefs, atleast from what Ive seen and read. For the record, I live in a highly RC part of the US, so it isnt like I dont know many. My entire family is RC.
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« Reply #147 on: May 11, 2011, 06:07:00 PM »


Not really.  

Look at this sidebar on ignorance:  You started it:  I am trying to tell you I am not playing it with you.
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« Reply #148 on: May 11, 2011, 06:08:28 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.

A. Irregardless - an informal term commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective. Hm, Ive never met anyone who's never heard of that word, maybe you just live under a rock.

He didn't said he had never heard of it, but that it isn't a real word.

Actually, I was speaking with a conservative Latin Catholic priest just about 10 days ago, and he said "irregardless". (That's not really relevant, I just thought it was an interesting coincidence.)


Neither is Fair Dinkum, Bizzo, Jumbuck,or G'Day, but does it make me an idiot for saying them?

Please read:



Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

Well, I guess in the way that Catholics are stupid to the SSPV. (That made sense, right?)

Yes.  Or the way in that I am stupid in your own eyes.  

Papist and elijahmaria,

At the risk of sounding cliche, I think you both need to get over yourselves a little bit. Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they consider you to be stupid.
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« Reply #149 on: May 11, 2011, 06:11:21 PM »

Neither is Fair Dinkum, Bizzo, Jumbuck,or G'Day, but does it make me an idiot for saying them?
No...at the most it would only make you sound like one if you say these things outside of Australian borders since they are not familiar slang terms internationally.

But Im pretty sure there are more RC who dont follow their dogmatic beliefs, atleast from what Ive seen and read. For the record, I live in a highly RC part of the US, so it isnt like I dont know many. My entire family is RC.
Unfortunately there are many cultural Catholics and many cradle Catholics that are under the impression that they can just pick and choose which teachings they want to follow. Unfortunately this is untrue. We, as a Church, need to step up our catechesis efforts so that lifelong Catholics quit growing up with this notion.
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« Reply #150 on: May 11, 2011, 06:11:48 PM »


Not really. 

Look at this sidebar on ignorance:  You started it:  I am trying to tell you I am not playing it with you.

Mate, I didnt start crap. You're getting pissy over nothing. No need to get angry over a forum. Tongue
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« Reply #151 on: May 11, 2011, 06:13:06 PM »

Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
Hmmm. You must think we are quite stupid.

No, it's just that I grew up Roman Catholic, so I kind of know you're side of the world.  Cool

Well I'm still on that side of the world and your view looks pretty skewed to me...

Also you look pretty young so did you grow up in parishes with 80 families or 500 or more families. 

Makes a difference in how we get to "see" each other.

Buddy, I grew up in one of the most highly Catholic parts of America. I used to be a HARDCORE Catholic,

Good for you. Sounds like you were a bit too HARDCORE, though...

LOL, how so? I wouldnt say hardcore as in too far, I guess I meant devoted to my faith.

lubeltri, I have to admit that I too am curious why you think he was too hardcore.
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« Reply #152 on: May 11, 2011, 06:14:17 PM »

Neither is Fair Dinkum, Bizzo, Jumbuck,or G'Day, but does it make me an idiot for saying them?
No...at the most it would only make you sound like one if you say these things outside of Australian borders since they are not familiar slang terms internationally.

But Im pretty sure there are more RC who dont follow their dogmatic beliefs, atleast from what Ive seen and read. For the record, I live in a highly RC part of the US, so it isnt like I dont know many. My entire family is RC.
Unfortunately there are many cultural Catholics and many cradle Catholics that are under the impression that they can just pick and choose which teachings they want to follow. Unfortunately this is untrue. We, as a Church, need to step up our catechesis efforts so that lifelong Catholics quit growing up with this notion.

Kay, mate. What words should I use? Hillbilly slang?
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« Reply #153 on: May 11, 2011, 06:21:35 PM »


Not really. 

Look at this sidebar on ignorance:  You started it:  I am trying to tell you I am not playing it with you.

Mate, I didnt start crap. You're getting pissy over nothing. No need to get angry over a forum. Tongue

If my own exchange with elijahmaria a little earlier is anything to go by, it would seem that saying anything to anyone counts as starting something in her eyes.
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« Reply #154 on: May 11, 2011, 06:26:18 PM »


Not really. 

Look at this sidebar on ignorance:  You started it:  I am trying to tell you I am not playing it with you.

Mate, I didnt start crap. You're getting pissy over nothing. No need to get angry over a forum. Tongue

If my own exchange with elijahmaria a little earlier is anything to go by, it would seem that saying anything to anyone counts as starting something in her eyes.

You're right, I guess I just need to ignore her.  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #155 on: May 11, 2011, 06:45:25 PM »


Not really.  

Look at this sidebar on ignorance:  You started it:  I am trying to tell you I am not playing it with you.

Mate, I didnt start crap. You're getting pissy over nothing. No need to get angry over a forum. Tongue

If my own exchange with elijahmaria a little earlier is anything to go by, it would seem that saying anything to anyone counts as starting something in her eyes.

You're right, I guess I just need to ignore her.  Lips Sealed

I can't exactly say that I advocate ignoring, but I know that sometimes its hard to know what else to do.

P.S. On the other hand, ignoring may not be the best policy when someone is throwing around comments like

laugh  Oh I don't think you think I am stupid because you disagree with me.  I think you think I am stupid because I don't fight with you when you come here to bait me for no apparent reason.   laugh
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« Reply #156 on: May 11, 2011, 06:48:05 PM »

Quote from: celticfan1888
Kay, mate. What words should I use? Hillbilly slang?

Out of the frying pan...  Roll Eyes  Tongue
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« Reply #157 on: May 11, 2011, 06:50:12 PM »


Not really. 

Look at this sidebar on ignorance:  You started it:  I am trying to tell you I am not playing it with you.

Mate, I didnt start crap. You're getting pissy over nothing. No need to get angry over a forum. Tongue

If my own exchange with elijahmaria a little earlier is anything to go by, it would seem that saying anything to anyone counts as starting something in her eyes.

You're right, I guess I just need to ignore her.  Lips Sealed

Ah...good.  Apparently you and Pete are going to get over yourselves  angel
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« Reply #158 on: May 11, 2011, 06:53:55 PM »

They will know we are Christians by our love.
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« Reply #159 on: May 11, 2011, 07:02:38 PM »

They will know we are Christians by our love.

Let us know when you are ready to start.  I will know when you stop showing up to complain about me out of the blue.

Christ is Risen!!
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« Reply #160 on: May 11, 2011, 07:07:07 PM »

Christ is risen!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!
A. Irregardless isn't a word. B. No we wouldn't because he wouldn't.
After 1054 he did, and you did.

At the very least in those days they followed him into schism and likely would do the same or beyond today.

You loose track of the fact that the east was seen as the schismatics, not the west.  So they went nowhere according to their own understandings at the time.

When the "true" Orthodox Churches split from the "untrue" Canonical ones...who believes that they are schismatics?  Is the offender schismatic or the one who takes offense?
Once again, but with clarity....
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« Reply #161 on: May 11, 2011, 07:09:17 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!

I guess it would depend on what the heresy was.

How about Papal Infaliability?
How about the Immaculate Conception?
How about the Assumption of the Theotokos without her Dying?
How about the filioque?


The third one is not taught by my Church and the other three are not heretical.
You are in communion with those who teach the third one, and it is heretical like the other three.
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« Reply #162 on: May 11, 2011, 07:11:49 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!

I guess it would depend on what the heresy was.

How about Papal Infaliability?
How about the Immaculate Conception?
How about the Assumption of the Theotokos without her Dying?
How about the filioque?


The third one is not taught by my Church and the other three are not heretical.
You are in communion with those who teach the third one, and it is heretical like the other three.

There are no heresies taught by the papal Church.  Not one.
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« Reply #163 on: May 11, 2011, 07:19:29 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!

I guess it would depend on what the heresy was.

How about Papal Infaliability?
How about the Immaculate Conception?
How about the Assumption of the Theotokos without her Dying?
How about the filioque?


The third one is not taught by my Church and the other three are not heretical.
You are in communion with those who teach the third one, and it is heretical like the other three.

There are no heresies taught by the papal Church.  Not one.
I see the Vatican has taken to mantras, a Hindu heretical practice.
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« Reply #164 on: May 11, 2011, 07:43:48 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!

I guess it would depend on what the heresy was.

How about Papal Infaliability?
How about the Immaculate Conception?
How about the Assumption of the Theotokos without her Dying?
How about the filioque?


The third one is not taught by my Church and the other three are not heretical.
You are in communion with those who teach the third one, and it is heretical like the other three.

There are no heresies taught by the papal Church.  Not one.
I see the Vatican has taken to mantras, a Hindu heretical practice.

Lord have mercy!

...and the like.
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« Reply #165 on: May 11, 2011, 07:46:23 PM »

Quote from: ialmisry
I see the Vatican has taken to mantras, a Hindu heretical practice.

 Huh

... and you woke up.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #166 on: May 11, 2011, 09:27:35 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Im pretty sure if the Pope of Rome "falls into heresy" most Roman Catholics would follow irregardless. I know most of the RC that I know would!

I guess it would depend on what the heresy was.

How about Papal Infaliability?
How about the Immaculate Conception?
How about the Assumption of the Theotokos without her Dying?
How about the filioque?


The third one is not taught by my Church and the other three are not heretical.
You are in communion with those who teach the third one, and it is heretical like the other three.

There are no heresies taught by the papal Church.  Not one.
I see the Vatican has taken to mantras, a Hindu heretical practice.

You should either provide evidence for that statement, or indicate that it isn't meant to be taken seriously.
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« Reply #167 on: May 11, 2011, 09:28:27 PM »

They will know we are Christians by our love.

Let us know when you are ready to start.  I will know when you stop showing up to complain about me out of the blue.

Christ is Risen!!

You really are full of it, aren't you?
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« Reply #168 on: May 11, 2011, 09:32:49 PM »


And, as we have all degenerated once again into childish schoolyard rhetoric, so we close yet another thread in the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum.

Part of me is of a mind to lock this forum for a while, but I don't have that kind of power.

Now, children, off to bed without your supper because staying up to argue with someone over the internet just isn't worth losing that much sleep over.

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