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Author Topic: If the pope became orthodox?  (Read 7769 times) Average Rating: 0
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Rdunbar123
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« on: May 05, 2011, 06:45:25 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?
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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2011, 06:47:01 PM »

The pope is and has always been orthodox.
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2011, 06:49:04 PM »

Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2011, 06:57:32 PM »

The pope is and has always been orthodox.
Absolutely
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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2011, 07:03:54 PM »

The pope is and has always been orthodox.
Absolutely

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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2011, 07:58:54 PM »

I imagine there would have to be jurisdictional discussions due to overlaps.
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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2011, 09:06:51 PM »

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.
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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2011, 09:36:14 PM »


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.
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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2011, 01:47:04 AM »

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
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« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2011, 01:51:49 AM »


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
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« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2011, 04:23:28 AM »

I know there are many issues, but isnt this the reason the churches can't reunite? This issue of authority is central. If the bishop of Rome has primacy over all and the power to bind and loose, then the rest of chritianity is wrong. If not, then the RCC is false. This is why I am converting to Orthodoxy. All the other issues just define the differences and make interesting reading. IMO.
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« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2011, 09:57:08 AM »

I imagine there would have to be jurisdictional discussions due to overlaps.

At least here in America, I think that would be part of the process of becoming Orthodox.

But seriously, both sides would probably be happy with having multiple jurisdictions (at least here in America, don't know about other places). I doubt Rome would relinquish the jurisdictional authority that they have over their churches here, and I don't see Orthodoxy doing that either. While Orthodoxy is talking about uniting churches under one jurisdiction, allowing Rome to be that jurisdiction would be a shot in the foot if that reunion didn't last. From a RC perspective, they have Eastern Catholic churches here that (to the best of my knowledge, could be wrong about this one, apotheoun or elijahmaria might be able to correct me if so) fall under the jurisdictional authority of their respective patriarchs (Melkites in America would fall under their patriarch in Antioch), which is similar (not quite the same because we have no "Pope" as defined by RC) on a slightly smaller scale of the current situation with Orthodoxy here.
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« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2011, 11:45:21 AM »

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
If the Pope ceased to believe in Catholic doctrine, he would no longer be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. Without occupying the Chair of Peter, he would lose his charism of infallibility when defining faith and morals.
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« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2011, 11:46:13 AM »


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
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« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2011, 11:48:01 AM »


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.
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« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2011, 11:50:18 AM »

Christ is risen!
Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
If the Pope ceased to believe in Catholic doctrine, he would no longer be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. Without occupying the Chair of Peter, he would lose his charism of infallibility when defining faith and morals.
According to the Vatican's pronouncements, once the pope sits in St. Peter's throne it is stuck to his seat until and if he voluntarily and without coercion resigns.
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« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2011, 11:53:48 AM »


Christ is risen!
Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
Alas for you! that definition came down in VI.  Maybe the Petite Église was right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petite_Eglise
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« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2011, 11:54:18 AM »

Christ is risen!
Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
If the Pope ceased to believe in Catholic doctrine, he would no longer be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. Without occupying the Chair of Peter, he would lose his charism of infallibility when defining faith and morals.
According to the Vatican's pronouncements, once the pope sits in St. Peter's throne it is stuck to his seat until and if he voluntarily and without coercion resigns.
The Pope must be Catholic. If he is not Catholic, then he is not the Pope. Simple as that.
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« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2011, 11:56:56 AM »

Christus resurrexit!
Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
Oh, the ironies! The Vatican would come back to Catholic unity with the Orthodox using a power that Orthodoxy says he doesn't have, while those who refuse to go along would be left to explain their disobedience to a power which they insist he has.
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« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2011, 12:53:33 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
Oh, the ironies! The Vatican would come back to Catholic unity with the Orthodox using a power that Orthodoxy says he doesn't have, while those who refuse to go along would be left to explain their disobedience to a power which they insist he has.

My head hurts.
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« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2011, 01:20:05 PM »

The pope is and has always been orthodox.



What about Pope Honorius the First?
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« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2011, 01:25:49 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
Oh, the ironies! The Vatican would come back to Catholic unity with the Orthodox using a power that Orthodoxy says he doesn't have, while those who refuse to go along would be left to explain their disobedience to a power which they insist he has.

My head hurts.

But Mommy, what IF the moon was made of cheese, what IF??? It could happen..... Wink Gosh, a topic for another scintillating thread.
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« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2011, 01:46:57 PM »

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
If the Pope ceased to believe in Catholic doctrine, he would no longer be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. Without occupying the Chair of Peter, he would lose his charism of infallibility when defining faith and morals.

I'm proposing he change Catholic doctrine and revert back to what was believed in the first millennium. If he can't do that without ceasing to be Pope then the Catholic Church is really in a pickle. Fortunately, I think the documents of VII combined with certain interpretations of VI give him every liberty back toward Orthodoxy - not all the way to radical concilliarism (my impression most EO's are looking for this) but at least back to the original limited papal powers.

And at the very least, since 1870 no one really has the power to depose him.  
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« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2011, 01:51:44 PM »

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
If the Pope ceased to believe in Catholic doctrine, he would no longer be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. Without occupying the Chair of Peter, he would lose his charism of infallibility when defining faith and morals.

I'm proposing he change Catholic doctrine and revert back to what was believed in the first millennium. If he can't do that without ceasing to be Pope then the Catholic Church is really in a pickle. Fortunately, I think the documents of VII combined with certain interpretations of VI give him every liberty back toward Orthodoxy - not all the way to radical concilliarism (my impression most EO's are looking for this) but at least back to the original limited papal powers.

And at the very least, since 1870 no one really has the power to depose him.  
That's a very interesting view that I did not expect from some one involved in the SSPX.
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« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2011, 02:02:51 PM »

I think the documents of VII combined with certain interpretations of VI give him every liberty back toward Orthodoxy - not all the way to radical concilliarism (my impression most EO's are looking for this) but at least back to the original limited papal powers.
But times have changed since the 5th Century. Imperial power shifted completely to Constantinople, which became the new center of Christianity in the empire. Constantinople remains the EO Primus Inter Pares, and Moscow has risen to a dominant position in practice following Constantinople's captivity. Today the see of Old Rome is no more than a small part of a city in a small country that was in disunity for several centuries.
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« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2011, 02:09:32 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
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« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2011, 02:11:17 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.
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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2011, 02:13:51 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?
The very fact he was renouncing such things would indicate he had apostatized and, as Papist has already stated, would cease to be Catholic. A non-Catholic cannot be Pope.
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« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2011, 02:15:14 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?
The very fact he was renouncing such things would indicate he had apostatized and, as Papist has already stated, would cease to be Catholic. A non-Catholic cannot be Pope.
I have a feeling that we may, in fact, have to repeats this somewhere between 10 and 3,591 times in this thread.
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« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2011, 02:15:59 PM »

As I said earlier, not much of a topic to discuss. How about trying 'what if the sky were bright green, would it still be the sky?' It is not even remotely probable, so this is a waste of time.
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« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2011, 02:21:44 PM »

I think the documents of VII combined with certain interpretations of VI give him every liberty back toward Orthodoxy - not all the way to radical concilliarism (my impression most EO's are looking for this) but at least back to the original limited papal powers.
But times have changed since the 5th Century. Imperial power shifted completely to Constantinople, which became the new center of Christianity in the empire. Constantinople remains the EO Primus Inter Pares, and Moscow has risen to a dominant position in practice following Constantinople's captivity. Today the see of Old Rome is no more than a small part of a city in a small country that was in disunity for several centuries.

Yes. I think that since the promulgation of Ut Unum Sint this view is the biggest obstacle to reunion.
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« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2011, 02:23:07 PM »

I believe a good number of the RC laity would follow the Roman pontiff, but sizable portion would remain. Considering the degree of disregard many of RC laity already have for papal authority, I can't see them following his presumed transition of communion.
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« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2011, 02:38:58 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
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« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2011, 02:59:56 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.
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« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2011, 03:19:22 PM »

"If the pope became orthodox?"

--Ice cream cake at my house!

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« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2011, 03:23:49 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

I think his point is that you don't speak for all Catholics, regardless of what you may think. Wink
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« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2011, 03:52:53 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

I think his point is that you don't speak for all Catholics, regardless of what you may think. Wink
Any Catholic who would follow a former Pope into schism is not a Catholic at all.
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« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2011, 04:22:33 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

I think his point is that you don't speak for all Catholics, regardless of what you may think. Wink
Any Catholic who would follow a former Pope into schism is not a Catholic at all.

Yes, and there are a bunch of sedevecantists who would agree with you that you're a schismatic. Wink
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« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2011, 04:26:36 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

I think his point is that you don't speak for all Catholics, regardless of what you may think. Wink
Any Catholic who would follow a former Pope into schism is not a Catholic at all.

Yes, and there are a bunch of sedevecantists who would agree with you that you're a schismatic. Wink
Oh well. They are not Catholics either.
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« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2011, 04:31:09 PM »

I find your dime-store interpretations of Catholic councils highly entertaining. Keep them up!


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Depends on how many people followed him, I suppose. For all the arguments over infallibility and supremacy and whatnot, in the end the Pope is only right and only rules when his flock allows him to (or in cases like contraception, where the majority of the flock disagree with him, when they do what they want but let him think he's in control).
some how ultramontanists in sede vacantanism still manage to cling to Pastor Aeternus, when their supreme pontiff promulgated Vatican II.

Sedevacantists believe the Roman See has been vacant since long before VII at the death of Pope Pius XII in '58 so it isn't "their" supreme pontiff. Sede's really aren't in the Roman Catholic Church as typically defined by communion with the Pope of Rome.
If the Pope left the Church, then we Catholics would all be Sedevacantists.
That's a problem, because, according to Pastor Aeternus, he takes the Church with him.
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« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2011, 04:46:31 PM »

Big-time food for thought:

"Certainly, no one who claims allegiance to Catholic theology can simply declare the doctrine of primacy null and void, especially not if he seeks to understand the objections and evaluates with an open mind the relative weight of what can be determined historically. Nor is it possible, on the other hand, for him to regard as the only possible form and, consequently, as binding on all Christians the form this primacy has taken in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. The symbolic gestures of Pope Paul VI and, in particular, his kneeling before the representative of the Ecumenical Patriarch were an attempt to express precisely this and, by such signs, to point the way out of the historical impasse. Although it is not given us to halt the flight of history, to change the course of centuries, we may say, nevertheless, that what was possible for a thousand years is not impossible for Christians today. After all, Cardinal Humbert of Silva Candida, in the same bull in which he excommunicated the Patriarch Michael Cerularius and thus inaugurated the schism between East and West, designated the Emperor and people of Constantinople as “very Christian and orthodox”, although their concept of the Roman primacy was certainly far less different from that of Cerularius than from that, let us say, of the First Vatican Council. In other words, Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium. When the Patriarch Athenagoras, on July 25, 1967, on the occasion of the Pope’s visit to Phanar, designated him as the successor of St. Peter, as the most esteemed among us, as one also presides in charity, this great Church leader was expressing the essential content of the doctrine of primacy as it was known in the first millennium. Rome need not ask for more. Reunion could take place in this context if, on the one hand, the East would cease to oppose as heretical the developments that took place in the West in the second millennium and would accept the Catholic Church as legitimate and orthodox in the form she had acquired in the course of that development, while, on the other hand, the West would recognize the Church of the East as orthodox and legitimate in the form she has always had.

"Such a mutual act of acceptance and recognition, in the Catholicity that is common to and still possessed by each side, is assuredly no light matter. It is an act of self-conquest, of self-denunciation and, certainly, also of self-discovery. It is an act that cannot be brought about by diplomacy but must be a spiritual undertaking of the whole Church in both East and West. If what is theologically possible is also to be actually possible in the Church, the theological aspect must be spiritually prepared and spiritually accepted. My diagnosis of the relationship between East and West in the Church is as follows: from a theological perspective, the union of the Churches of East and West is fundamentally possible, but the spiritual preparation is not yet sufficiently far advanced and, therefore, not yet ready in practice. When I say it is fundamentally possible from a theological perspective, I do not overlook the fact that, on closer inspection, a number of obstacles still exist with respect to the theological possibility: from the Filioque to the question of the indissolubility of marriage. Despite these difficulties, some of which are present more strongly in the West, some in the East, we must learn that unity, for its part, is a Christian truth, an essentially Christian concept, of so high a rank that it can be sacrificed only to safeguard what is most fundamental, not where the way to it is obstructed by formulations and practices that, however important they may be, do not destroy community in the faith of the Fathers and in the basic form of the Church as they saw her."

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology: Building Stones for a Fundamental Theology (San Francisco, CA: Ignatius Press, 1987), pp. 198-199.

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« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2011, 05:03:31 PM »

Incidentally, creepy sedevacantists point to this passage as one of the proofs that "antipope Benedict-Ratzinger" (as they call him) is not the Supreme Pontiff but some scraggly Greek heretic-loving Modernist. So, yes, it's safe to say that they would not follow the Pope were he to effect union with some or all of the Orthodox churches.

My theory is that these types are those ultramontanists who were angry that Vatican I didn't go far enough and for whom Vatican II was the last straw. So they gave up their wider ultramontanist project and appointed themselves über-infallible little popes. A very interesting if very small brand of Protestantism, I must say.
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« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2011, 05:09:46 PM »

Just a hypothetical, but if the pope renounced infallibility and other post schism doctrines, wouldnt the RC church become the largest Orthodox jurisdiction by far?

Most likely, yes.
No, because we wouldn't follow such a Pope. The second he stopped accepting Catholic doctrine he would cease to be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. "Is the Pope Catholic?" and all that Jazz.

You certainly wouldn't. But I suspect more than 100 million (roughly the size of the Russian church) would.
I am Catholic. You are not. Simple as that.

I think his point is that you don't speak for all Catholics, regardless of what you may think. Wink
Any Catholic who would follow a former Pope into schism is not a Catholic at all.

Yes, and there are a bunch of sedevecantists who would agree with you that you're a schismatic. Wink
Oh well. They are not Catholics either.

Says you.  They say otherwise.   angel
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« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2011, 05:31:47 PM »

Technically sedevacantists who have elected a new "pope" are no longer sedevacantists but conclavists.

One of my favorites is "Pope" Michael I, who holds court in Kansas. All hail His Americanness!


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« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2011, 05:41:00 PM »

Well, the Pope can't just suddenly do that himself. Surely it would take a great Council to effect such a reunion.

Theoretically, the Pope could return the Church to "orthodoxy" himself by using the language "declare and define" acting alone and without the consent of any bishops or council, it just wouldn't necessarily reunite the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics - just put everyone on the same page faith wise. It would rip up the Catholic Church though so even if Pope Benedict wanted to do it I'm not sure that he could.
If the Pope ceased to believe in Catholic doctrine, he would no longer be the Pope, because he would no longer be Catholic. Without occupying the Chair of Peter, he would lose his charism of infallibility when defining faith and morals.

But the pope can declare a new dogma in which he would cease to believe what the church believes that statement makes no sense
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