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Author Topic: Orthodox visiting Catholic churches  (Read 5134 times) Average Rating: 0
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LittleFlower
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« on: May 04, 2011, 02:06:51 PM »

Hi,

I'm Catholic, and my family is Eastern Orthodox. My parents don't go to church regularly. Would it be wrong, from the Orthodox perspective, if they ever visited Mass with me - not all the time but maybe once or twice? Or is this not allowed for the Orthodox?

thanks
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2011, 03:07:55 PM »

The question is: what for? To assist you in some important moments of your life? Just of curiosity? To pray? To take Sacraments?

IMO the first two reasons are OK, the last one is a no-no. I would also not pray there.
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2011, 12:19:51 AM »

what if it's just for the sake of convenience?

why can't they pray there though?
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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2011, 12:44:38 AM »

They can't pray there because we don't hold a common faith with the Roman Catholic Church. The idea behind the Orthodox stance of not being allowed to pray with anyone who is non Orthodox is that, in order to pray correctly in unity, one must hold to a common faith. At the same token, we welcome the non Orthodox to attend Orthodox services and the Divine Liturgy, however you musn't partake of the sacraments or mysteries, or receive the blessed bread which is distributed at the end of the Liturgy.
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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2011, 12:47:46 AM »

They don't go to church regularly? Are they actually committed to their faith?
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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2011, 05:41:45 AM »

They can't pray there because we don't hold a common faith with the Roman Catholic Church. The idea behind the Orthodox stance of not being allowed to pray with anyone who is non Orthodox is that, in order to pray correctly in unity, one must hold to a common faith. At the same token, we welcome the non Orthodox to attend Orthodox services and the Divine Liturgy, however you musn't partake of the sacraments or mysteries, or receive the blessed bread which is distributed at the end of the Liturgy.

As far as the blessed bread is concerned, I have been given(handed to me while sitting) when I have attende the church I intend to join. Is this a mistake they know I am catholic
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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2011, 06:01:02 AM »

however you musn't partake of the sacraments or mysteries, or receive the blessed bread which is distributed at the end of the Liturgy.

I was told antidorion is OK for schismatics.
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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2011, 06:38:25 AM »


 however you musn't partake of the sacraments or mysteries, or receive the blessed bread which is distributed at the end of the Liturgy.

If your bishop is so strict on this matter of antidoron only for the baptized who have not communed that day,  he really should, logically, forbid the non-Orthodox to even be in the temple at the time the antidoron is being distributed.
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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2011, 09:44:48 AM »

Correct, a non-Orthodox person shall not recive any of the body or blood of our saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.  It is also sin to attend a service of another faith i.e. Catholic Church as it is unjust to pray in the house of a non-Orthodox faith.

It would be like an Orthodox praying at a Mosque.
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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2011, 12:31:24 PM »

It depends what you mean by 'attending'. If you go there to pray IMO it's a sin, if you go there for some social circumstances - IMO it's OK.
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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2011, 12:53:46 PM »

This is actually a very interesting topic. Although I was not raised Roman Catholic, I do come from a traditionally Roman Catholic country. I have attended mass several times for weddings, funerals and just for regular mass when I was in secondary school. I never took communion since I was never baptized into the RCC but I usually did recite the Nicene Creed and Our Father along with the Catholic celebrants. Having made the choice to become Orthodox, I've decided no longer to recite the Catholic version of the Nicene Creed, for obvious reasons. However, would it be wrong to join in praying the Lord's Prayer? I've tended to join out of respect and because the Lord's Prayer is the same in all Christian denominations.
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« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2011, 02:01:33 PM »

They can't pray there because we don't hold a common faith with the Roman Catholic Church. The idea behind the Orthodox stance of not being allowed to pray with anyone who is non Orthodox is that, in order to pray correctly in unity, one must hold to a common faith. At the same token, we welcome the non Orthodox to attend Orthodox services and the Divine Liturgy, however you musn't partake of the sacraments or mysteries, or receive the blessed bread which is distributed at the end of the Liturgy.

As far as the blessed bread is concerned, I have been given(handed to me while sitting) when I have attende the church I intend to join. Is this a mistake they know I am catholic

Most Orthodox I have encountered tend to think that the it is fine for the faithful to give the antidoron to just about anyone as a sign of fellowship.
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« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2011, 02:02:35 PM »

Correct, a non-Orthodox person shall not recive any of the body or blood of our saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Assuming that it even is that.
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« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2011, 02:04:23 PM »

However, would it be wrong to join in praying the Lord's Prayer? I've tended to join out of respect and because the Lord's Prayer is the same in all Christian denominations.

You won't really get one answer on this one. There are plenty of Orthodox who think that praying in the services of the heterodox is unacceptable and also plenty who think it is fine as long as the contents of the prayers are not heterodox.
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« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2011, 07:17:47 PM »

They can't pray there because we don't hold a common faith with the Roman Catholic Church. The idea behind the Orthodox stance of not being allowed to pray with anyone who is non Orthodox is that, in order to pray correctly in unity, one must hold to a common faith. At the same token, we welcome the non Orthodox to attend Orthodox services and the Divine Liturgy, however you musn't partake of the sacraments or mysteries, or receive the blessed bread which is distributed at the end of the Liturgy.

I see... I agree about not sharing Communion, but if someone is non Orthodox comes to DL aren't they praying there?
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« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2011, 07:18:09 PM »

They don't go to church regularly? Are they actually committed to their faith?

I dont know about the second question as I don't know their hearts, but no they don't attend church
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« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2011, 07:19:24 PM »

Correct, a non-Orthodox person shall not recive any of the body or blood of our saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.  It is also sin to attend a service of another faith i.e. Catholic Church as it is unjust to pray in the house of a non-Orthodox faith.

It would be like an Orthodox praying at a Mosque.

a Mosque? I respect your beliefs, but Catholics aren't like Muslims - we are Christians also.. I'm not saying you should break your rules and pray with us, I'm just saying that it's strange to compare Catholics to non Christians.
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« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2011, 07:21:39 PM »

However, would it be wrong to join in praying the Lord's Prayer? I've tended to join out of respect and because the Lord's Prayer is the same in all Christian denominations.

You won't really get one answer on this one. There are plenty of Orthodox who think that praying in the services of the heterodox is unacceptable and also plenty who think it is fine as long as the contents of the prayers are not heterodox.

is there an official teaching on this? it's just that one poster here said that it's a sin to go to a Catholic church to pray there, - yet others are saying that some Orthodox believe it's acceptable...

what if an Orthodox person just walks into a Catholic cathedral, not during a service, but when it's empty, and just says a few of their own prayers there? is that a sin?
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« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2011, 07:22:38 PM »

It depends what you mean by 'attending'. If you go there to pray IMO it's a sin, if you go there for some social circumstances - IMO it's OK.

is this a personal opinion or the official teaching? I'm not attacking you or anything, just wondering because you said 'IMO' Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2011, 07:35:55 PM »

However, would it be wrong to join in praying the Lord's Prayer? I've tended to join out of respect and because the Lord's Prayer is the same in all Christian denominations.

You won't really get one answer on this one. There are plenty of Orthodox who think that praying in the services of the heterodox is unacceptable and also plenty who think it is fine as long as the contents of the prayers are not heterodox.

is there an official teaching on this? it's just that one poster here said that it's a sin to go to a Catholic church to pray there, - yet others are saying that some Orthodox believe it's acceptable...

what if an Orthodox person just walks into a Catholic cathedral, not during a service, but when it's empty, and just says a few of their own prayers there? is that a sin?
An official teaching? That's actually rather hard to come by in Orthodoxy on a lot of matters. And a forum like this is exactly where all the possibilities come out. That's why you so often see us saying "Ask your priest". Orthodoxy is a living faith meant to be lived out in the context of the Church community. Variations will happen. Sort of like everyone on your street obviously lives on the same street. The houses may be more or less similar, but how households are run will show a great deal of variation in spite of a whole list of similarities. In the same way what constitutes behaving as a good Orthodox Christian may vary slightly even from one parish to another.

I don't see a problem with saying a prayer if I just happen to be in a RC or Protestant church as a visitor for a family event, or as a tourist in any one of many architecturally or historically significant buildings, just as it's not wrong to say a prayer in a park, while driving on a highway, or sitting it the dentist's chair! However, to say to oneself: "I want to go to pray somewhere. I think I'll choose that nice RC church on the other side of town." That's an entirely different situation. I would wonder why that choice is being made when other more usual (for an Orthodox Christian) options are available.
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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2011, 07:45:30 PM »

They can't pray there because we don't hold a common faith with the Roman Catholic Church. The idea behind the Orthodox stance of not being allowed to pray with anyone who is non Orthodox is that, in order to pray correctly in unity, one must hold to a common faith. At the same token, we welcome the non Orthodox to attend Orthodox services and the Divine Liturgy, however you musn't partake of the sacraments or mysteries, or receive the blessed bread which is distributed at the end of the Liturgy.

I see... I agree about not sharing Communion, but if someone is non Orthodox comes to DL aren't they praying there?

It is usually understood to be acceptable for non-Orthodox to come individually to pray in an Orthodox context. That is very different from Orthodox going to pray in non-Orthodox contexts.
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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2011, 07:51:15 PM »

They don't go to church regularly? Are they actually committed to their faith?

I dont know about the second question as I don't know their hearts, but no they don't attend church

If they just don't bother to attend church, from an EO perspective where the mystical experience of the religion is so connected to choosing to attend church, it's likely that they are not all that serious about their religion, and therefore probably not that big of a deal if they choose to participate in other religions.
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« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2011, 07:52:24 PM »

Correct, a non-Orthodox person shall not recive any of the body or blood of our saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.  It is also sin to attend a service of another faith i.e. Catholic Church as it is unjust to pray in the house of a non-Orthodox faith.

It would be like an Orthodox praying at a Mosque.

a Mosque? I respect your beliefs, but Catholics aren't like Muslims - we are Christians also.. I'm not saying you should break your rules and pray with us, I'm just saying that it's strange to compare Catholics to non Christians.

Neither are united to Christ through His Body, the Church, so yes, there is definitely room to compare any non-Orthodox group in this way.
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« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2011, 07:54:27 PM »

is there an official teaching on this?

Not exactly. IIRC, there is a canon that forbids praying in the services of heathens, Jews, pagans, or heretics. But I don't remember the exact nature of that canon and how it is to be applied.

what if an Orthodox person just walks into a Catholic cathedral, not during a service, but when it's empty, and just says a few of their own prayers there? is that a sin?

Obviously it would be much less likely that that would be sinful.
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« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2011, 07:59:11 PM »

It depends what you mean by 'attending'. If you go there to pray IMO it's a sin, if you go there for some social circumstances - IMO it's OK.

is this a personal opinion or the official teaching? I'm not attacking you or anything, just wondering because you said 'IMO' Smiley

What it is is an interpretation of the official teaching. So if his interpretation is correct, then yes, it is the official teaching.
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« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2011, 08:08:54 PM »

However, would it be wrong to join in praying the Lord's Prayer? I've tended to join out of respect and because the Lord's Prayer is the same in all Christian denominations.

You won't really get one answer on this one. There are plenty of Orthodox who think that praying in the services of the heterodox is unacceptable and also plenty who think it is fine as long as the contents of the prayers are not heterodox.

is there an official teaching on this? it's just that one poster here said that it's a sin to go to a Catholic church to pray there, - yet others are saying that some Orthodox believe it's acceptable...

what if an Orthodox person just walks into a Catholic cathedral, not during a service, but when it's empty, and just says a few of their own prayers there? is that a sin?
An official teaching? That's actually rather hard to come by in Orthodoxy on a lot of matters. And a forum like this is exactly where all the possibilities come out. That's why you so often see us saying "Ask your priest". Orthodoxy is a living faith meant to be lived out in the context of the Church community. Variations will happen. Sort of like everyone on your street obviously lives on the same street. The houses may be more or less similar, but how households are run will show a great deal of variation in spite of a whole list of similarities. In the same way what constitutes behaving as a good Orthodox Christian may vary slightly even from one parish to another.

thanks for the reply, I guess I just don't really understanding,how an can something be a sin if there's no official teaching on it and the guidance of priests varies?

Quote
I don't see a problem with saying a prayer if I just happen to be in a RC or Protestant church as a visitor for a family event, or as a tourist in any one of many architecturally or historically significant buildings, just as it's not wrong to say a prayer in a park, while driving on a highway, or sitting it the dentist's chair! However, to say to oneself: "I want to go to pray somewhere. I think I'll choose that nice RC church on the other side of town." That's an entirely different situation. I would wonder why that choice is being made when other more usual (for an Orthodox Christian) options are available.

in the case of my family, the Orthodox church is in another city, and my dad's company makes him work on sundays. Sometimes when we've visited other cities as tourists, we visited cathedrals that were Catholic. Other times, I went to Mass and couldn't get there on my own and needed a ride, and invited my parents too because otherwise they would just be in the parking lot. does the EOC consider this a sin? my parents had nothing against being inside a Catholic church so they prayed there as they would pray anywhere, but they don't see it the same as on the street, etc, cause it is a church with holy images etc. According to the Orthodox church are we all sinning?
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LittleFlower
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« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2011, 08:11:33 PM »

They don't go to church regularly? Are they actually committed to their faith?

I dont know about the second question as I don't know their hearts, but no they don't attend church

If they just don't bother to attend church, from an EO perspective where the mystical experience of the religion is so connected to choosing to attend church, it's likely that they are not all that serious about their religion, and therefore probably not that big of a deal if they choose to participate in other religions.

I can't comment on my family and their spiritual life, I know they do believe in God, and I know my dad reads the Bible etc.. but let's say if a person weren't serious about their faith, as an Orthodox, would it be less serious for them to visit a Catholic church and pray there?
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« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2011, 08:12:25 PM »

They don't go to church regularly? Are they actually committed to their faith?

I dont know about the second question as I don't know their hearts, but no they don't attend church

If they just don't bother to attend church, from an EO perspective where the mystical experience of the religion is so connected to choosing to attend church, it's likely that they are not all that serious about their religion, and therefore probably not that big of a deal if they choose to participate in other religions.

I can't comment on my family and their spiritual life, I know they do believe in God, and I know my dad reads the Bible etc.. but let's say if a person weren't serious about their faith, as an Orthodox, would it be less serious for them to visit a Catholic church and pray there?

Of course it doesn't matter as much if the person wasn't serious about Orthodoxy in the first place.
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« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2011, 08:14:26 PM »

Correct, a non-Orthodox person shall not recive any of the body or blood of our saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.  It is also sin to attend a service of another faith i.e. Catholic Church as it is unjust to pray in the house of a non-Orthodox faith.

It would be like an Orthodox praying at a Mosque.

a Mosque? I respect your beliefs, but Catholics aren't like Muslims - we are Christians also.. I'm not saying you should break your rules and pray with us, I'm just saying that it's strange to compare Catholics to non Christians.

Neither are united to Christ through His Body, the Church, so yes, there is definitely room to compare any non-Orthodox group in this way.

I see... can't say that I agree though Sad
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« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2011, 08:15:12 PM »

It depends what you mean by 'attending'. If you go there to pray IMO it's a sin, if you go there for some social circumstances - IMO it's OK.

is this a personal opinion or the official teaching? I'm not attacking you or anything, just wondering because you said 'IMO' Smiley

What it is is an interpretation of the official teaching. So if his interpretation is correct, then yes, it is the official teaching.

how can we tell which one is correct?

thanks for answring all my questions btw Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2011, 08:17:30 PM »

Of course it doesn't matter as much if the person wasn't serious about Orthodoxy in the first place.

I don't really understand why that is important.. but okay Smiley
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« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2011, 08:20:23 PM »

However, would it be wrong to join in praying the Lord's Prayer? I've tended to join out of respect and because the Lord's Prayer is the same in all Christian denominations.

You won't really get one answer on this one. There are plenty of Orthodox who think that praying in the services of the heterodox is unacceptable and also plenty who think it is fine as long as the contents of the prayers are not heterodox.

is there an official teaching on this? it's just that one poster here said that it's a sin to go to a Catholic church to pray there, - yet others are saying that some Orthodox believe it's acceptable...

what if an Orthodox person just walks into a Catholic cathedral, not during a service, but when it's empty, and just says a few of their own prayers there? is that a sin?
An official teaching? That's actually rather hard to come by in Orthodoxy on a lot of matters. And a forum like this is exactly where all the possibilities come out. That's why you so often see us saying "Ask your priest". Orthodoxy is a living faith meant to be lived out in the context of the Church community. Variations will happen. Sort of like everyone on your street obviously lives on the same street. The houses may be more or less similar, but how households are run will show a great deal of variation in spite of a whole list of similarities. In the same way what constitutes behaving as a good Orthodox Christian may vary slightly even from one parish to another.

thanks for the reply, I guess I just don't really understanding,how an can something be a sin if there's no official teaching on it and the guidance of priests varies?

Quote
I don't see a problem with saying a prayer if I just happen to be in a RC or Protestant church as a visitor for a family event, or as a tourist in any one of many architecturally or historically significant buildings, just as it's not wrong to say a prayer in a park, while driving on a highway, or sitting it the dentist's chair! However, to say to oneself: "I want to go to pray somewhere. I think I'll choose that nice RC church on the other side of town." That's an entirely different situation. I would wonder why that choice is being made when other more usual (for an Orthodox Christian) options are available.

in the case of my family, the Orthodox church is in another city, and my dad's company makes him work on sundays. Sometimes when we've visited other cities as tourists, we visited cathedrals that were Catholic. Other times, I went to Mass and couldn't get there on my own and needed a ride, and invited my parents too because otherwise they would just be in the parking lot. does the EOC consider this a sin? my parents had nothing against being inside a Catholic church so they prayed there as they would pray anywhere, but they don't see it the same as on the street, etc, cause it is a church with holy images etc. According to the Orthodox church are we all sinning?

Dear Little Flower,

I believe you are having difficulty understanding the Orthodox point of view because your understanding of the concept of "sin" is very typically Catholic (or, being fairer to our Catholic friends, stereotypically Catholic).

You are conceiving of a sin as an offence against God's moral code. It's kinda like, murder is a sin because it breaches section 67 of God's Crimes Act aka the Bible. There is no room for "grey" in this kind of assessment: whether the sin has been committed or not is a matter of fact. Orthodoxy doesn't conceive of sin in that way.

In the Orthodox conception, sin is whatever is harmful to your spiritual state. God has revealed certain "laws" which we are bound to follow, but those laws themselves are given to us for our spiritual benefit. Not only that, sometimes the laws are not "thou shalts" or "thou shalt nots", but are ambiguous spiritual principles which must be applied to varied and shifting facts. So, what is spiritually harmful for me might not be spiritually harmful to you, depending on the circumstances. This is why we Orthodox always fall back on "ask your priest".

Can I give you an example? Say, for instance, person A is very well-grounded in Orthodox Christianity, having a sound understanding of the scriptures and a deeply patristic-influenced mindset. For person A to attend a Catholic church and sit through the Mass, privately praying, is probably not spiritually harmful to him/her. But, for person B, who is not particularly well-grounded in Orthodox Christianity and could very easily fall into the trap of thinking Orthodoxy is little more than Catholicism-without-a-Pope or Catholicism-with-funnier-hats, attending the Catholic mass (especially often) could be of great spritual detriment.

Try not to think about your actions in terms of black and white categories. Try to assess your actions like this: "is what I am doing spiritually harmful in some way?". Remember, things that appear innocuous can actually be causing you to take a wrong spiritual path. That is why spiritual fathers and mothers are so important in Orthodoxy -- they serve to put us back on the right path when we go wandering.

I apologise if this post is a bit of a Orthodoxy 101, but I think it will help you to get your mind around the Orthodox understanding of sin.
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« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2011, 08:21:48 PM »

Correct, a non-Orthodox person shall not recive any of the body or blood of our saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.  It is also sin to attend a service of another faith i.e. Catholic Church as it is unjust to pray in the house of a non-Orthodox faith.

It would be like an Orthodox praying at a Mosque.

a Mosque? I respect your beliefs, but Catholics aren't like Muslims - we are Christians also.. I'm not saying you should break your rules and pray with us, I'm just saying that it's strange to compare Catholics to non Christians.

Neither are united to Christ through His Body, the Church, so yes, there is definitely room to compare any non-Orthodox group in this way.

I see... can't say that I agree though Sad

I'm not at a point right now where I am totally gung-ho about Orthodoxy; I'm just telling you that the Orthodox teaching is that the Orthodox Church is the Church of Christ, and therefore those outside of it are not Christian in the same mystical sense.
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« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2011, 08:26:33 PM »

Not exactly. IIRC, there is a canon that forbids praying in the services of heathens, Jews, pagans, or heretics. But I don't remember the exact nature of that canon and how it is to be applied.

There are actually half a dozen canons that say the Orthodox shouldn't go to Jewish/heretical/schismatic services, shouldn't pray with them, etc., though how strictly these canons should be applied seems much debated. Also, there is a canon (6th of Laodicea) that says that heretics cannot enter an Orthodox church, but I've never heard of any Orthodox (even the most traditionalist) turning away people who want to attend a service.
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« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2011, 08:33:15 PM »


Dear Little Flower,

I believe you are having difficulty understanding the Orthodox point of view because your understanding of the concept of "sin" is very typically Catholic (or, being fairer to our Catholic friends, stereotypically Catholic).

You are conceiving of a sin as an offence against God's moral code. It's kinda like, murder is a sin because it breaches section 67 of God's Crimes Act aka the Bible. There is no room for "grey" in this kind of assessment: whether the sin has been committed or not is a matter of fact. Orthodoxy doesn't conceive of sin in that way.

Hi, thanks for your reply... well in Catholicism, - it's not always black and white either, I mean something could be grave matter but not be a mortal sin if the person didn't know it's sinful, or didn't have a free choice about it, etc. What I was talking about is not personal guilt, but more like grave matter.. do the Orthodox have a concept of this? if so, then is Orthodox praying in non Orthodox churches grave matter, or a matter of discipline? I ask because there are those canons.. don't the canons apply to all Orthodox? does a priest have the authority to dispense a person from following a canon like this?

Quote
In the Orthodox conception, sin is whatever is harmful to your spiritual state. God has revealed certain "laws" which we are bound to follow, but those laws themselves are given to us for our spiritual benefit. Not only that, sometimes the laws are not "thou shalts" or "thou shalt nots", but are ambiguous spiritual principles which must be applied to varied and shifting facts. So, what is spiritually harmful for me might not be spiritually harmful to you, depending on the circumstances. This is why we Orthodox always fall back on "ask your priest".

Can I give you an example? Say, for instance, person A is very well-grounded in Orthodox Christianity, having a sound understanding of the scriptures and a deeply patristic-influenced mindset. For person A to attend a Catholic church and sit through the Mass, privately praying, is probably not spiritually harmful to him/her. But, for person B, who is not particularly well-grounded in Orthodox Christianity and could very easily fall into the trap of thinking Orthodoxy is little more than Catholicism-without-a-Pope or Catholicism-with-funnier-hats, attending the Catholic mass (especially often) could be of great spritual detriment.

Try not to think about your actions in terms of black and white categories. Try to assess your actions like this: "is what I am doing spiritually harmful in some way?". Remember, things that appear innocuous can actually be causing you to take a wrong spiritual path. That is why spiritual fathers and mothers are so important in Orthodoxy -- they serve to put us back on the right path when we go wandering.

I apologise if this post is a bit of a Orthodoxy 101, but I think it will help you to get your mind around the Orthodox understanding of sin.

thanks for the description.. would you say that it could ever be spiritually beneficial for an Orthodox to visit a Catholic church to pray there? for example, if there are no Orthodox churches nearby at all, or if they are not really practicing and at least this way they are going to a church.. (rather than none)
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« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2011, 08:34:31 PM »

Correct, a non-Orthodox person shall not recive any of the body or blood of our saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.  It is also sin to attend a service of another faith i.e. Catholic Church as it is unjust to pray in the house of a non-Orthodox faith.

It would be like an Orthodox praying at a Mosque.

a Mosque? I respect your beliefs, but Catholics aren't like Muslims - we are Christians also.. I'm not saying you should break your rules and pray with us, I'm just saying that it's strange to compare Catholics to non Christians.

Neither are united to Christ through His Body, the Church, so yes, there is definitely room to compare any non-Orthodox group in this way.

I see... can't say that I agree though Sad

I'm not at a point right now where I am totally gung-ho about Orthodoxy; I'm just telling you that the Orthodox teaching is that the Orthodox Church is the Church of Christ, and therefore those outside of it are not Christian in the same mystical sense.

well I guess the Catholics believe similarly.. except we do believe non Catholics are Christians too, but we don't view them being part of the Body of Christ in the same way either. So I do get the logic.. Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2011, 08:47:36 PM »

Hi, thanks for your reply... well in Catholicism, - it's not always black and white either [..]

You're right, of course, Catholicism is more complicated than I painted it, but I decided to rely on the stereotypes of the two traditions to illustrate my point. I hope I haven't said anything offensive.

I mean something could be grave matter but not be a mortal sin if the person didn't know it's sinful, or didn't have a free choice about it, etc. What I was talking about is not personal guilt, but more like grave matter.. do the Orthodox have a concept of this? if so, then is Orthodox praying in non Orthodox churches grave matter, or a matter of discipline?

I will be lame and let a cleverer person answer this one!

I ask because there are those canons.. don't the canons apply to all Orthodox? does a priest have the authority to dispense a person from following a canon like this?

It is the bishop's prerogative to tighten or loosen the canons, and the parish priest acts on the bishop's authority. Our understanding of how canons are to be applied differs from the Catholic understanding, which I will be bold enough to say (again, hoping not to cause offence!) is more legalistic.

thanks for the description.. would you say that it could ever be spiritually beneficial for an Orthodox to visit a Catholic church to pray there? for example, if there are no Orthodox churches nearby at all, or if they are not really practicing and at least this way they are going to a church.. (rather than none)

My own belief is yes, it could be spiritually beneficial in such circumstances, depending on the spiritual state of the person involved. My bishop might take a different view, though.
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« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2011, 08:52:12 PM »

Thanks for the reply Smiley and no I'm not offended, no worries!
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« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2011, 09:03:23 PM »

It very Hard For me to accept that your Parents are Eastern Orthodox and you their daughter Happens to be Roman Catholic how does that happen....Something isn't right or doesn't sound right ......Are you sure their not Orthodox in Communion With Rome as some Eastern Catholic Like to Call themselfs....Even the Most Lack's Cradle Eastern Orthodox would more than likely have there Child / Children Baptised Orthodox ,plus there are aunts ,uncles other members of the Orthodox Family that would insist on it......
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« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2011, 09:35:11 PM »

It very Hard For me to accept that your Parents are Eastern Orthodox and you their daughter Happens to be Roman Catholic how does that happen....Something isn't right or doesn't sound right ......Are you sure their not Orthodox in Communion With Rome as some Eastern Catholic Like to Call themselfs....Even the Most Lack's Cradle Eastern Orthodox would more than likely have there Child / Children Baptised Orthodox ,plus there are aunts ,uncles other members of the Orthodox Family that would insist on it......

No, they are Eastern Orthodox, not Catholic, and I am Catholic. I converted to Catholicism.
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« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2011, 09:43:17 PM »

Oh! Ok ...But really Not Ok..... Grin


It very Hard For me to accept that your Parents are Eastern Orthodox and you their daughter Happens to be Roman Catholic how does that happen....Something isn't right or doesn't sound right ......Are you sure their not Orthodox in Communion With Rome as some Eastern Catholic Like to Call themselfs....Even the Most Lack's Cradle Eastern Orthodox would more than likely have there Child / Children Baptised Orthodox ,plus there are aunts ,uncles other members of the Orthodox Family that would insist on it......

No, they are Eastern Orthodox, not Catholic, and I am Catholic. I converted to Catholicism.
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2011, 02:25:32 AM »

At the same token, we welcome the non Orthodox to attend Orthodox services and the Divine Liturgy, however you musn't partake of the sacraments or mysteries, or receive the blessed bread which is distributed at the end of the Liturgy.
I attended an Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy and the priest knew that I was Roman Catholic. I did not go up for Holy Communion, but remained in my seat. At the end of Communion, as the Orthodox priest instructed him, the usher came to my seat with the blessed bread (not Holy Communion) and offered it to me.  Do you mean then, that I am supposed to tell the usher that I don't want the blessed bread which is being offered to me, and that I would be committing a sin by accepting his offer of the blessed bread?
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« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2011, 02:29:38 AM »

^ I'm not sure what Chtets Ioann is talking about...at least at my church I can take the blessed bread (as we call it, the "antidoron"). It's especially okay if someone from the church hands you a piece of bread.

It's sacred, but it's not the sacrament of Holy Communion. If you take it and eat it respectfully, you should be okay.
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« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2011, 06:35:30 AM »

what if an Orthodox person just walks into a Catholic cathedral, not during a service, but when it's empty, and just says a few of their own prayers there? is that a sin?

If I ever happen to be in Bari, Italy, I will certainly try to do my outmost to visit the Roman Catholic Basilica of Saint Nicholas in order to pray at the relics of Saint Nicholas. I would prefer to do this when no formal service is going on.
Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_di_San_Nicola

I will also happily walk in to any church building of any type as a tourist to take photos of magnificent architecture, but I would not go there to pray really.
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« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2011, 08:33:16 AM »


what if an Orthodox person just walks into a Catholic cathedral, not during a service, but when it's empty, and just says a few of their own prayers there? is that a sin?


Here is a statement on this question from the Russian Orthodox Church:

"Orthodox believers can visit
Catholic or Protestant churches, attend non-Orthodox service without
voiced or inner prayer, Orthodox prayer before all-Christian shrines
is also acceptable while public or private prayers with non-Orthodox
are inadmissible for Orthodox believers."


For the full statement please go to message 169
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21720.msg330843.html#msg330843
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« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2011, 09:05:22 AM »

Oh! Ok ...But really Not Ok..... Grin

depends who you ask Wink

In this section, dedicated to discussing the Orthodox Christian POV, it is clear and doesn't depend on anything.

At a Catholic Mass Orthodox Christians are officially welcome to receive, but they probably shouldn’t, since their own church sometimes levies a sentence of excommunication for those who receive Communion with us.

Always. It is an act of apostasy.

I would like to remind you that in this section non-Orthodox Christians are not allowed to advocate their Churches POV or criticize the teachings and practises of the Orthodox Church or advising Orthodox Christians to break them.

Could you be comfortable sharing your faith decision and journey with us here?  

Not here. On the other hand she can do it in the Orth-Cath subforum if she wants to.
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« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2011, 09:25:33 AM »

Little Flower you did wrong. To understand that take Holy water from your Church and Holy Water from your Parents Orthodox Church and put them side by side. Then ask why Roman Catholic Water becomes corupt earlier. Maybe because the rite of obtaining Holy water was changed in Roman Catholic Church. Protestantism has renounced Holy water alltogether.
Well next, think that eternal life comes from eating food for eternal life , that is Holy Eucharist John 6:53 6:54 . To Holy Eucharist protestantism looks like renounced too. So, changes had happen in Roman Catholic Church regarding obtaining food for eternal life too. Did you think at consequences? You started gambling with your eternal life and if you would go to Proetstantsim you would almost lose food for etern al life.
On the time aftre Council of Florence, Roman Catholics eneterd Mount Athos requiring monks tos erve with them. Some did and God destroyed the Church killing the ones inside. More than that, their bodies did not break smelling bad and having hair and nail growing even today. Also when Roman Catholics came to receive Holy Light miracle, This miracle did not come until Roman Catholics have ,left the Church.

Appendix C Miracles

A religion is not a University. Is not giving only wisdom , it operates above wisdom and anything that can be discovered by science. So a religion needs to have miracles. So what miracles does the Christianity have? What miracles has Eastern orthodox Christianity has?

Every aspect of Jesus life in the New testament is accompanied by miracles:

1. Easter is the victory of death over life. On Easter day, in Eastern orthodox Christianity, Holy Light is descending from God, in front of people, on the exact place where Jesus was resurrected. Holy Light comes in the Church built on his sepulcher. This is similar with the column of Light that lead Jews into the desert.

Here is an article about Holy light: http://www.holyfire.org/eng/
Here is a movie about Holy Light: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99xvNIydfvQ
Even if many christian confessions have tried to get Holy light, it come only to Eastern Orthodox Christianity showing the truth of this faith.

2.Baptism allows people to see Heaven. When Jesus was baptized, nature showed submission for Word of God and bowed down with holy Jordan river flowing backward while Jesus was baptized. Year after year this miracle happen even in our times. Here is an movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfmrqZwUjCQ

3.The cloud on Mount Tabor.

Every year on transfiguration day a cloud comes on Mount Tabor. I have seen a picture with this cloud .

4.The skeletons in Egypt

I read that on the time of Bright week, when Jesus had victory over death, in Egypt, near pyramids skeletons come away from Earth and stay in vertical position until the Thursday of Bright week, when Jesus finishing his salvation work and assumed to heaven. I have no picture or movies yet about this miracle.

1+2+3+4 are yearly miracles.

5. Holy water.

Here you see pictures with the actual water structure transformation through the blessing prayer, so it become Holy water. Incredible how prayer can change water structure.
http://stmaryofstamford.org/holywater.html

6. Saints appearing after death, doing miracles after death, moving mountains, having uncorrupted bodies and many more.

Many Easter orthodox Christians can tell you about saints helping through intercession. The Ladder to Heaven dreamed by patriarch in Old testament while sleeping is in Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

Holy Mother of God does many many many miracles.
"The Miracle in Syria"


Compiled by Archimandrite Nektarios Serfes, Boise, Idaho USA

ORTHODOX PATRIARCHAL CONVENT OF VIRGIN MARY

   In December 2004 a Saudi Arabian man, a Moslem, appeared before several new agencies to relate the following incredible event he experienced and which changed his life (this story appeared on TV, the Internet, radio, and was circulated in newspapers, magazines, and pamphlets throughout Saudi Arbia, Syria, Palestine, and evidently in all neighboring countries.

   Some years ago, this man married a very rich Moslem woman but sterile. As the years passed, and despite all their efforts and significant medical expenses with many doctors, they remained childless. The man's parents suggested to him that he marry a second woman, while upholding his initial marriage (as the local laws permits up to four concurrent marriages).

   Being exhausted, worried, and downhearted, he did not accept his parents' advice but rather chose to vacation with his wife in Syria. There, they hired a limousine with a driver who would serve as tour guide fro all their site-seeing excursions throughout Syria. As the vacation progressed, the driver noticed that the Saudi Arabian couple was experiencing bitterness, pain, and grief. Having gained familiarity with the couple, the driver cautiously asked them whey they appeared to be so unhappy-was it perhaps because he was not conducting the tour to their satisfaction?

   The couple confided to the driver that the source of their unhappiness was their inability to have children. The driver who was also a Moslem, then told them that in Syria the Christians, specifically the Orthodox Christians, have a monastery named Panagia Saidraya (Arabic word meaning Our Lady) and that many people who can't have children take refuge to Her miracle-producing icon. They go to the monastery and there they are given to eat, the wick form the lamp which burns before the miraculous icon. And then the "Mary" of the Christians gives them according to their faith, what they wish for.

   Becoming excited, the Saudi Arabian and his wife asked the driver to take them to the monastery "Saidnaya" of "The Lady of the Christians" and said that if we have a child, then I will come back and I will give you $20,000.00 US and, I will give the monastery $80,000 US. So they went to the monastery and did as they were instructed. Later they returned to their homeland and after some time the wife was found pregnant. In a few months she gave birth to a charming baby boy. It was truly a miracle of Our Lady Theotokos.

   Now, as soon as his wife gave birth the Saudi Arabian man wanted to return to Syria to uphold the promises he had made. Upon his return he called the same driver and asked to be picked up at the Damascus airport. But the driver was cunning and wicked and he persuaded two of his friends to go to the airport with him to pick up the rich Saudi Arabian man and to take his money and kill him. So they picked up the rich man at the airport and he, as they drove, without realizing that they had planned to kill him, told the friends of the driver that he would give them also $10,000 US each.

   These men still not satisfied, deviated from the route to the monastery and went to a deserted place and proceeded to slay the Saudi Arabian man and to cut off his head and other parts (hands and legs) of his body into pieces. Blinded by passion and overcome by the horrific act that they just committed, they put the man's remains in the trunk of the car rather than just leaving him there. After taking his money, watch, and all that he had, they proceeded to find another deserted place to discard the remains.

   Then on the National highway, their car broke down and stopped in the middle of that road. The three men got out to determine why the engine had stalled. Then a passerby stopped to help them but they, afraid that their terrible act would be discovered, pretended that they did not need any help. But as the passerby motorist was leaving, he noticed blood dripping from the rear of the vehicle and he called the police to investigate because the scene and the three men looked suspicious. The police came and they saw the blood under the car and on the pavement so they ordered that the trunk be opened.

   Well, when the opened the trunk, lo and behold, the Saudi Arabian man lifted himself out, obviously and amazingly alive and in good health, saying to them "Just now this PANAGIA finished stitching my neck, right here (showing them the area of his Adam's Apple), after first stitching up the rest of my entire body". Seeing this, the three criminals immediately lost their minds-becoming like mad. The police handcuffed them and as they were being taken away to an asylum for the insane, the criminals started raving that it could not be possible that the Saudi Arabian man whom they killed, beheaded, and dissected could yet be alive.

   The Saudi Arabian went to a medical facility to undergo examination by doctors and medical examiners who confirmed and attested that the stitching was done very recently, thereby validating the miraculous event. The stitches were, and still are, obvious. When the Saudi Arabian came out of the car's trunk, he had the appearance, literally, of just having been refabricated (put back together) to which he continuously confessed that they PANAGIA had rejoined his body and resurrected him with the help of her Son.

   Immediately after this, the Saudi Arabian called his relatives to come to Syria and they all went together to the monastery of Panagia Saidnaya and offered up prayers, praises, and glorification, and instead of the initial gift of $80,000 US (which was promised), he gave $800,000 US to the Theotokos.

   Today, as this man relates the details of that overwhelming miracle, he starts his narration with "When I was a Moslem this happened to me" this indicating he is not longer a Moslem, as neither is his family.

   This miracle stunned with awesome surprise the entire Arabic/Moslem nation and all of the Middle East. ”

Saint Spiridon have incorruptible body, he is like sleeping and many times his body is missing and his shoes are to be changed every year since they become worn out.
Here is an account:
http://www.bucharestherald.ro/dailyevents/41-dailyevents/17988-21st-century-miracle-st-spyridon-the-saint-who-leaves-his-tabernacle-to-go-help-people?tmpl=component&print=1&page=
Saint Mark have moved Mountains. Saint Parascheva has also many miracles. Arsenie Boca has so many miracles, incredible. There are several inspiring books that tell about his miracles.

Many many miracles:
The Icon of Holy Mother of God blinking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTrojZJmk18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV6eQLLjwS4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcFHVhhwgq8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JGUJ9AgKAQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8C_8bI_t4A

An account of Miracles of Saints:
http://www.orthodox.net/stnicholas/stnicholas3miracles.html
http://www.saint-spyridon.com/archive_spyridon.htm
http://saintjohnwonderworker.org/visitors_book_2008.htm
http://www.pigizois.net/latreia/paraklitikoi_kanones/m_e_f_karditsas_ag_minas/agglika/thaumata_ag_mina.htm
http://full-of-grace-and-truth.blogspot.com/2009/10/miracles-of-st-demetrios-myrrh-streamer.html


Eastern Orthodox Christianity has most miracles and most powerful ones being the right way. Other religions have miracles too. To say there are no miracles outside Eastern orthodox Christianity is to say there were no miracles in Old Testament which is no right. Jesus name drives away sick angels for every man of every confession. However let not forget, the means are to get baptized so you can get into Heaven and to get food for eternal life, Holy Communion , that you can find in Eastern orthodox Church.


Anything interesting that people should know?
Well, people dying after having Holy Communion may go straight to heaven having God in themselves. Same thing with people dying on bright week since skies are open. Also this book http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/apocrypha_nt/histjoe.htm  says on point 26 that whomever writes it will have the book of the sins erased and many other good things, as a gift of Jesus in honour of his Father Joseph. Also I read that by having a candle burning in front of an icon for one day you have one day in Heaven.

The orthodox Christian came to the wise man and said:
I teach my children in a good school.
The wise man wrote an 0.
Orthodox Christian said: I send my children to the best sports and I train them to be healthy:
The wise man put another 0 in front of it.
Orthodox Christian said: I teach my children to work hard.
The wise man put another 0 .
Orthodox Christian said: I teach my children to avoid stealing.
The wise man put another 0.
Orthodox Christian said: I teach my children to stop being lazy.
The wise man put another 0.
The Orthodox Christian man said: I give my children baptism for entering Heaven and food for eternal life.
The wise man smiled and put an 1 in front of so many 0's. He said: Without life and entrance to heaven, these qualities are 0's. Only by having eternal life and by entering the Heaven , children will be able to enjoy the qualities you are looking for.


Other interesting books:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16409335/Evadarea-Din-Iad  - in romanian language
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24991031/Sf-Nicolae-Velimirovici-Razboiul-Si-Biblia2 – in romanian language, The war and the Bible
http://www.scribd.com/doc/28785019/Parintele-Arsenie-Boca-Marturii  Arsenie Boca Memories – romanian language
http://www.crestinortodox.ro/carti-ortodoxe/ne-vorbeste-parintele-cleopa/o-istorioara-cu-femeile-care-fac-avorturi-81167.html  romanian Cleopa stories book. Abortion can be forgiven to confession at an Orthodox Priest
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/bct/index.htm
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/apocrypha_nt/histjoe.htm
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/apocrypha_nt/narjoe.htm
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/apocrypha_nt/reptpilt.htm
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/LostBooks/theGospelOfTheNativityOfMary.htm
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/LostBooks/infancyall.htm
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/LostBooks/nicodemus.htm
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/LostBooks/lettersJesusAbgarus.htm
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/adamnev.htm
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/enoch.htm
http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr?lang=eng
http://lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr?lang=eng
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/1007.htm
http://www.crestinortodox.ro/carti-ortodoxe/marii-initiati-indiei-parintele-paisie/
Miracles:
http://www.saint-spyridon.com/archive_spyridon.htm
http://www.sfantaparascheva.com/minuni.php   Romanian
http://saintjohnwonderworker.org/visitors_book_2008.htm


Movies:
The souls departs from body, where is he going?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyBDs8JpEa8
Where you can get not being baptized, in old Greek pagan religion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv-VlJnDvuw
Where you can get after being baptized:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxU3LDDMeaM&feature=related
How to pray in Church. Praying in an Eastern Orthodox Church and listening to sermon is second importance, the most important is to partake FOOD FOR ETERNAL LIFE, Holy Communion that comes from us for 2000 years. Even so, praying is important too so how to pray?
Because the movie is in Romanian and Russian the plot is this. An elder asks God why God does not respond to people prayers, since they go to Church and pray? God sends an angel and the angel takes him in Church and he can hear prayers but nothing is heard. Then angel discovers the thoughts of everybody. One young lady is commenting why other lady has a new hat. One young man is wondering if he should buy the Lexus. Another young man is wondering why a young girl has a ring on her finger and a woman is upset that his husband is looking to soccer too much. So basically nobody is praying. In the end a small girl in the Church full of people is praying for her father to come out of alcoholism. So, one Church, many people, one prayer from the people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DiIpBQQpGc
The Icon of Holy Mother of God blinking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTrojZJmk18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV6eQLLjwS4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcFHVhhwgq8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JGUJ9AgKAQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8C_8bI_t4A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72yJhlMjFBo
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« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2011, 09:30:42 AM »

@pasadi97: As a moderator I'm officially asking you not to duplicate your messages in various threads. If you keep copying your posts you will get warned.
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« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2011, 12:40:41 PM »

So, my post above is not letter of law. You do your own inquiries and find the truth.

Don't forget to ask God through prayer:

Dear God please force me to salvation together with the entire world and please show me the true religion in your eyes and please give me an understanding of all religions.
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« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2011, 01:13:50 PM »


what if an Orthodox person just walks into a Catholic cathedral, not during a service, but when it's empty, and just says a few of their own prayers there? is that a sin?


Here is a statement on this question from the Russian Orthodox Church:

"Orthodox believers can visit
Catholic or Protestant churches, attend non-Orthodox service without
voiced or inner prayer, Orthodox prayer before all-Christian shrines
is also acceptable while public or private prayers with non-Orthodox
are inadmissible for Orthodox believers."


For the full statement please go to message 169
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21720.msg330843.html#msg330843


so my family is not allowed to pray with me privately either?
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« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2011, 01:24:25 PM »

Correct, a non-Orthodox person shall not recive any of the body or blood of our saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.  It is also sin to attend a service of another faith i.e. Catholic Church as it is unjust to pray in the house of a non-Orthodox faith.

It would be like an Orthodox praying at a Mosque.

a Mosque? I respect your beliefs, but Catholics aren't like Muslims - we are Christians also.. I'm not saying you should break your rules and pray with us, I'm just saying that it's strange to compare Catholics to non Christians.

Muslims are Christian heterodox as well.
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« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2011, 01:30:06 PM »

Correct, a non-Orthodox person shall not recive any of the body or blood of our saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.  It is also sin to attend a service of another faith i.e. Catholic Church as it is unjust to pray in the house of a non-Orthodox faith.

It would be like an Orthodox praying at a Mosque.

a Mosque? I respect your beliefs, but Catholics aren't like Muslims - we are Christians also.. I'm not saying you should break your rules and pray with us, I'm just saying that it's strange to compare Catholics to non Christians.

Muslims are Christian heterodox as well.

I'm confused.. Muslims are not Christian, they don't believe in Christ. I believe in Christ.
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« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2011, 01:39:00 PM »

Correct, a non-Orthodox person shall not recive any of the body or blood of our saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.  It is also sin to attend a service of another faith i.e. Catholic Church as it is unjust to pray in the house of a non-Orthodox faith.

It would be like an Orthodox praying at a Mosque.

a Mosque? I respect your beliefs, but Catholics aren't like Muslims - we are Christians also.. I'm not saying you should break your rules and pray with us, I'm just saying that it's strange to compare Catholics to non Christians.

Muslims are Christian heterodox as well.

I'm confused.. Muslims are not Christian, they don't believe in Christ. I believe in Christ.

Ummmm, they sure do believe in Christ. Along with some other Christian doctrines which might surprise you given the fact you are confused by my statement.

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« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2011, 01:50:02 PM »

so my family is not allowed to pray with me privately either?

I pray with my wife who is not Orthodox.
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« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2011, 02:14:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Hi,

I'm Catholic, and my family is Eastern Orthodox. My parents don't go to church regularly. Would it be wrong, from the Orthodox perspective, if they ever visited Mass with me - not all the time but maybe once or twice? Or is this not allowed for the Orthodox?

thanks

I would say that this is allowable, but you must respect your parents' own feelings.  If they themselves personally feel strongly against going to a Roman Catholic Mass, then do not pressure them too much.  I would suggest this, invite them in the spirit of love and fellowship, and if if they refuse do not take it too personally, its them and not you.  Usually it is the reverse scenario, would it be OK for an Orthodox convert to go to a Catholic Mass with his family. 

Just a note, if you are hoping to bring them to your Mass in order to rekindle their religiosity, perhaps you could oblige to attend Orthodox services with them instead? Surely it will inspire them in some way, even if just in the moment.  Also, it will be good for your family to worship and pray together.  So the real question I suppose, is how do you feel about attending Orthodox liturgy instead? (I am not trying to convert you by the way, I respect peoples' faith, it just seems the more pragmatic approach, it may be easier to get the one you into their church rather then the two of them into yours Wink )

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2011, 02:26:36 PM »




I don't see a problem with saying a prayer if I just happen to be in a RC or Protestant church as a visitor for a family event, or as a tourist in any one of many architecturally or historically significant buildings, just as it's not wrong to say a prayer in a park, while driving on a highway, or sitting it the dentist's chair! However, to say to oneself: "I want to go to pray somewhere. I think I'll choose that nice RC church on the other side of town." That's an entirely different situation. I would wonder why that choice is being made when other more usual (for an Orthodox Christian) options are available.

I really appreciate the sentiments of your post here. In regard to this specific quote, I would just like to say that at least here in the US, Orthodox can't have its cake and eat it too..  During Lent I often had to pray privately in Catholic Church buildings (not at Mass, just in the empty church) out of the simple reality that the local Orthodox parishes were padlocked shut on weekdays, and so the only buildings even open to pray in were my local Catholic parishes.  I do not attend Catholic Mass, however I often find solace, comfort, and joy when praying the Hours or reading the Gospels when meditating inside a quiet, well-decorated Catholic Church, particularly a cathedral.

I would just like to say that the blatantly anti-Catholic vibe expressed on this thread in particular is rather ugly and seemingly not very Christian attitude.  We must have a spirit of love and forgiveness.  If the Catholic Church is so bad and so wrong, shouldn't we be that much more positive and prayerfully receptive of Catholics that they might find repentance?  Aren't we as Apostolic Christians supposed to withhold judgment until the Lord comes and does the judging for Himself and in the meantime, shouldn't we fast and pray about ourselves alone and not worry about others?

Its like your grandma said, "If you ain't got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all."

stay blessed,
habte selassie

« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 02:29:09 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2011, 02:34:46 PM »




I don't see a problem with saying a prayer if I just happen to be in a RC or Protestant church as a visitor for a family event, or as a tourist in any one of many architecturally or historically significant buildings, just as it's not wrong to say a prayer in a park, while driving on a highway, or sitting it the dentist's chair! However, to say to oneself: "I want to go to pray somewhere. I think I'll choose that nice RC church on the other side of town." That's an entirely different situation. I would wonder why that choice is being made when other more usual (for an Orthodox Christian) options are available.

I really appreciate the sentiments of your post here. In regard to this specific quote, I would just like to say that at least here in the US, Orthodox can't have its cake and eat it too..  During Lent I often had to pray privately in Catholic Church buildings (not at Mass, just in the empty church) out of the simple reality that the local Orthodox parishes were padlocked shut on weekdays, and so the only buildings even open to pray in were my local Catholic parishes.  I do not attend Catholic Mass, however I often find solace, comfort, and joy when praying the Hours or reading the Gospels when meditating inside a quiet, well-decorated Catholic Church, particularly a cathedral.

I would just like to say that the blatantly anti-Catholic vibe expressed on this thread in particular is rather ugly and seemingly not very Christian attitude.  We must have a spirit of love and forgiveness.  If the Catholic Church is so bad and so wrong, shouldn't we be that much more positive and prayerfully receptive of Catholics that they might find repentance?  Aren't we as Apostolic Christians supposed to withhold judgment until the Lord comes and does the judging for Himself and in the meantime, shouldn't we fast and pray about ourselves alone and not worry about others?

Its like your grandma said, "If you ain't got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all."

stay blessed,
habte selassie



I'm not sure why you have to pray at a Church during Lent, but I agree with your post on the whole. And I tire of the anti-RC stuff as well.

As I've said before, if I say the Lord's Prayer with a buncha guys on skid row at an AA meeting, am I really doing something wrong?

Then again, engaging in such acts does "feel" differently now. Just too casual and seemingly paradoxically too ritualistic!
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« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2011, 02:37:57 PM »

Correct, a non-Orthodox person shall not recive any of the body or blood of our saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.  It is also sin to attend a service of another faith i.e. Catholic Church as it is unjust to pray in the house of a non-Orthodox faith.

It would be like an Orthodox praying at a Mosque.

a Mosque? I respect your beliefs, but Catholics aren't like Muslims - we are Christians also.. I'm not saying you should break your rules and pray with us, I'm just saying that it's strange to compare Catholics to non Christians.

Muslims are Christian heterodox as well.

I'm confused.. Muslims are not Christian, they don't believe in Christ. I believe in Christ.

Ummmm, they sure do believe in Christ. Along with some other Christian doctrines which might surprise you given the fact you are confused by my statement.



I mean - they believe He is only a prophet.. they don't believe He is God, they don't know Him.
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« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2011, 02:40:17 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Hi,

I'm Catholic, and my family is Eastern Orthodox. My parents don't go to church regularly. Would it be wrong, from the Orthodox perspective, if they ever visited Mass with me - not all the time but maybe once or twice? Or is this not allowed for the Orthodox?

thanks

I would say that this is allowable, but you must respect your parents' own feelings.  If they themselves personally feel strongly against going to a Roman Catholic Mass, then do not pressure them too much.  I would suggest this, invite them in the spirit of love and fellowship, and if if they refuse do not take it too personally, its them and not you.  Usually it is the reverse scenario, would it be OK for an Orthodox convert to go to a Catholic Mass with his family. 

they feel okay with it, they are certain they want to be Orthodox and not Catholic, but sometimes it happens that it's more convenient for us all to go to a Catholic Church together  like if we are travelling.

Quote
Just a note, if you are hoping to bring them to your Mass in order to rekindle their religiosity, perhaps you could oblige to attend Orthodox services with them instead? Surely it will inspire them in some way, even if just in the moment.  Also, it will be good for your family to worship and pray together.  So the real question I suppose, is how do you feel about attending Orthodox liturgy instead? (I am not trying to convert you by the way, I respect peoples' faith, it just seems the more pragmatic approach, it may be easier to get the one you into their church rather then the two of them into yours Wink )

stay blessed,
habte selassie

my family does not attend church.. when they do go to the Orthodox church, like for Easter, - I come with them. However, I am not allowed to miss the Mass and go to another church's service instead of the Mass. So what I do then is I just go to two services in one day, one Catholic, one Orthodox.

God bless
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« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2011, 02:43:29 PM »




I don't see a problem with saying a prayer if I just happen to be in a RC or Protestant church as a visitor for a family event, or as a tourist in any one of many architecturally or historically significant buildings, just as it's not wrong to say a prayer in a park, while driving on a highway, or sitting it the dentist's chair! However, to say to oneself: "I want to go to pray somewhere. I think I'll choose that nice RC church on the other side of town." That's an entirely different situation. I would wonder why that choice is being made when other more usual (for an Orthodox Christian) options are available.

I really appreciate the sentiments of your post here. In regard to this specific quote, I would just like to say that at least here in the US, Orthodox can't have its cake and eat it too..  During Lent I often had to pray privately in Catholic Church buildings (not at Mass, just in the empty church) out of the simple reality that the local Orthodox parishes were padlocked shut on weekdays, and so the only buildings even open to pray in were my local Catholic parishes.  I do not attend Catholic Mass, however I often find solace, comfort, and joy when praying the Hours or reading the Gospels when meditating inside a quiet, well-decorated Catholic Church, particularly a cathedral.

that is sort of what I mean about my family... my dad sometimes likes to visit a Catholic Cathedral with me if we are travelling, - because he can't get to an Orthodox church, and he just comes there when it's empty and stays there for while, looks at the artwork, etc. I'd feel alright doing the same in an Orthodox church.

Quote
I would just like to say that the blatantly anti-Catholic vibe expressed on this thread in particular is rather ugly and seemingly not very Christian attitude.  We must have a spirit of love and forgiveness.  If the Catholic Church is so bad and so wrong, shouldn't we be that much more positive and prayerfully receptive of Catholics that they might find repentance?  Aren't we as Apostolic Christians supposed to withhold judgment until the Lord comes and does the judging for Himself and in the meantime, shouldn't we fast and pray about ourselves alone and not worry about others?

Its like your grandma said, "If you ain't got nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all."

stay blessed,
habte selassie



God bless Smiley
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« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2011, 02:49:16 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


they feel okay with it, they are certain they want to be Orthodox and not Catholic, but sometimes it happens that it's more convenient for us all to go to a Catholic Church together  like if we are travelling.
my family does not attend church.. when they do go to the Orthodox church, like for Easter, - I come with them. However, I am not allowed to miss the Mass and go to another church's service instead of the Mass. So what I do then is I just go to two services in one day, one Catholic, one Orthodox.

God bless

That is definitely an option since you are Catholic.  In Orthodox, we don't tend to have multiple Divine Liturgy services where as the Roman Catholic seem to have several a day, several times a week, so with your own Catholic Father's permission, maybe you could just attend both services every so often on Sunday.  If you explain to your priests that it is out of sincere concern for the spiritual and religious growth of you parents, I'm sure they will get you in the right direction.  I would never advise you to go against your own Fathers and their spiritual discernment, as they know you intimately to make the best judgment.  

So explain your situation to your priests and see what they advise you to do more specifically. As its been explained above, both Catholic and Orthodox (that is to say, Apostolic) Christianity are living, active faiths which are continually reinterpreted mutually at both the individual and yet collective level.  We do not rely solely on Canons, Laws, and Commentaries, but more so the spiritual discernment of our active priests to directly interpret how we should apply these things to the specific variables and dynamics of our lives and circumstances.  At the very center of all your actions should be vigilant prayer about the matter..



stay blessed,
habte selassie

« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 02:50:44 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2011, 03:21:30 PM »

Correct, a non-Orthodox person shall not recive any of the body or blood of our saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.  It is also sin to attend a service of another faith i.e. Catholic Church as it is unjust to pray in the house of a non-Orthodox faith.

It would be like an Orthodox praying at a Mosque.

a Mosque? I respect your beliefs, but Catholics aren't like Muslims - we are Christians also.. I'm not saying you should break your rules and pray with us, I'm just saying that it's strange to compare Catholics to non Christians.

Muslims are Christian heterodox as well.

I'm confused.. Muslims are not Christian, they don't believe in Christ. I believe in Christ.

Ummmm, they sure do believe in Christ. Along with some other Christian doctrines which might surprise you given the fact you are confused by my statement.



I mean - they believe He is only a prophet.. they don't believe He is God, they don't know Him.

Whatever heterodox beliefs they hold doesn't discount that they are Christian heterodox. I think seeing Islam in this manner could allow for a less polarizing dialog with them. After all, Muhammad protected two icons from being destroyed. One of the Theotokos and Christ and one of Abraham. Or so goes the story.

St. John of Damacus certainly viewed the development of Islam as a Christian heresy. He is an early and reliable witness to Islamic development. His relationship with Islam (mutually beneficial at times) and his criticisms are quite interesting.

Like it or not, the has more in common with Christianity on how they view Christ, the Theotokos, the disciples, than Judaism, which often is rather vulgar in its treatment of Christ and the Theotokos, at worst, and silent at best.

EDIT: I am not longer going off-topic, I promise.
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« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2011, 03:24:24 PM »

Post advocating the RCC POV have been moved to Orthodox-Catholic Discussion.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=36002.0

Please, behave.
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« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2011, 03:43:56 PM »

I would really like to know why there are catechumens or telling this person what she and her parents can or can not do. My point isn't that you can't know based on research, my point is that none of you have been Orthodox long enough to have much experience.

1) This is an issue between you, your parents and your respective spiritual fathers. Even if we give you the answer you desire, if you violate what your spiritual father told you to do you are in sin.

2) Although Orthodoxy and Catholocism are similar at face value, they are not the same and should never be treated as such.

3) You being Catholic can not receive in an Orthodox church, they can not receive at a Catholic church. When my husband was deployed overseas he was told by our priest that he should practice private prayers and speak the services if an Orthodox service was unavailable, even if there was a mass available. We haven't been Orthodox very long (just three years) but that has been our experience so far regarding an Orthodox Christian attending a Catholic service. Other priests may advise differently, that doesn't mean our priest is wrong or the other priest is wrong. The beauty of Orthodoxy is that there is no big book of rules like the Catholic church, I don't have to consult a huge book like the catechism of the Catholic church. We have canon laws, but they aren't meant to answer every single issue as a whole. There is room for personal counsel.

4) You are making statements about the faith of your parents. This is a prime example of the differences between the faiths. There is no requirement to go to services a certain number of times a year in the Orthodox church. You go whenever you can. Why would you ask your parents to attend your services when they can attend theirs so rarely? Your attitude in even asking on this board is very selfish. Are you hoping to get back-up from online sources before you ask your parents? Your parents are your parents. If you are under 18 you shouldn't ask your parents to give up their faith so you can practice yours. It sounds like they allow you to practice your faith, let them practice theirs without judging them because they don't go to services "often enough" in your view. Children know little about their parents unless they ask. From the comments you have made, it sounds like you haven't ever tried to find out about your parents faith.
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« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2011, 03:54:08 PM »

Looking at your posting history, you seemed to have been conflicted up until recently about whether or not you should be Catholic or Orthodox. This makes this entire train of thought on this thread have an entirely different meaning. Stop trying to have both and bringing your parents along for the ride.
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« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2011, 03:59:30 PM »

I would really like to know why there are catechumens telling this person what she and her parents can or can not do.

I think it is called the internet.

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« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2011, 04:17:22 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


they feel okay with it, they are certain they want to be Orthodox and not Catholic, but sometimes it happens that it's more convenient for us all to go to a Catholic Church together  like if we are travelling.
my family does not attend church.. when they do go to the Orthodox church, like for Easter, - I come with them. However, I am not allowed to miss the Mass and go to another church's service instead of the Mass. So what I do then is I just go to two services in one day, one Catholic, one Orthodox.

God bless

That is definitely an option since you are Catholic.  In Orthodox, we don't tend to have multiple Divine Liturgy services where as the Roman Catholic seem to have several a day, several times a week, so with your own Catholic Father's permission, maybe you could just attend both services every so often on Sunday.  If you explain to your priests that it is out of sincere concern for the spiritual and religious growth of you parents, I'm sure they will get you in the right direction.  I would never advise you to go against your own Fathers and their spiritual discernment, as they know you intimately to make the best judgment.  

So explain your situation to your priests and see what they advise you to do more specifically. As its been explained above, both Catholic and Orthodox (that is to say, Apostolic) Christianity are living, active faiths which are continually reinterpreted mutually at both the individual and yet collective level.  We do not rely solely on Canons, Laws, and Commentaries, but more so the spiritual discernment of our active priests to directly interpret how we should apply these things to the specific variables and dynamics of our lives and circumstances.  At the very center of all your actions should be vigilant prayer about the matter..



stay blessed,
habte selassie



that makes sense, thanks Smiley
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« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2011, 04:18:26 PM »

Correct, a non-Orthodox person shall not recive any of the body or blood of our saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.  It is also sin to attend a service of another faith i.e. Catholic Church as it is unjust to pray in the house of a non-Orthodox faith.

It would be like an Orthodox praying at a Mosque.

a Mosque? I respect your beliefs, but Catholics aren't like Muslims - we are Christians also.. I'm not saying you should break your rules and pray with us, I'm just saying that it's strange to compare Catholics to non Christians.

Muslims are Christian heterodox as well.

I'm confused.. Muslims are not Christian, they don't believe in Christ. I believe in Christ.

Ummmm, they sure do believe in Christ. Along with some other Christian doctrines which might surprise you given the fact you are confused by my statement.



I mean - they believe He is only a prophet.. they don't believe He is God, they don't know Him.

Whatever heterodox beliefs they hold doesn't discount that they are Christian heterodox. I think seeing Islam in this manner could allow for a less polarizing dialog with them. After all, Muhammad protected two icons from being destroyed. One of the Theotokos and Christ and one of Abraham. Or so goes the story.

St. John of Damacus certainly viewed the development of Islam as a Christian heresy. He is an early and reliable witness to Islamic development. His relationship with Islam (mutually beneficial at times) and his criticisms are quite interesting.

Like it or not, the has more in common with Christianity on how they view Christ, the Theotokos, the disciples, than Judaism, which often is rather vulgar in its treatment of Christ and the Theotokos, at worst, and silent at best.

EDIT: I am not longer going off-topic, I promise.

okay , sure, that can be Smiley I still do consider them further away from Christianity than other types of Christians though, like Protestants for example
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« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2011, 04:37:16 PM »

If you are over 18, why do you need your parents to go to services with you at all?

How long have you been Catholic?

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« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2011, 04:38:27 PM »

I would really like to know why there are catechumens or telling this person what she and her parents can or can not do. My point isn't that you can't know based on research, my point is that none of you have been Orthodox long enough to have much experience.

1) This is an issue between you, your parents and your respective spiritual fathers. Even if we give you the answer you desire, if you violate what your spiritual father told you to do you are in sin.

My spiritual director is a Catholic priest.. I was wondering what the Orthodox perspective is, for my family, not for me. They have not spoken to their priest about whether they could visit a Catholic church, - they do not talk to him regularly as they do not attend church regularly. I was wondering if there's an official rule that's for all Orthodox people, like a canon. I don't have a problem with taking my parents to Mass, but I wouldn't want them to commit a sin from the Orthodox perspective, or to do anything against their conscience. However, they personally do not have a problem with visiting a Catholic church.

Quote
2) Although Orthodoxy and Catholocism are similar at face value, they are not the same and should never be treated as such.

sure, never said that they are Smiley

Quote
3) You being Catholic can not receive in an Orthodox church, they can not receive at a Catholic church.

I know this, I do not receive Communion in the Orthodox church when I go with my family, and they do not receive Communion at Mass when they visit with me. We realize we can't share Communion. I was just talking about visiting or praying.

Quote
When my husband was deployed overseas he was told by our priest that he should practice private prayers and speak the services if an Orthodox service was unavailable, even if there was a mass available. We haven't been Orthodox very long (just three years) but that has been our experience so far regarding an Orthodox Christian attending a Catholic service. Other priests may advise differently, that doesn't mean our priest is wrong or the other priest is wrong. The beauty of Orthodoxy is that there is no big book of rules like the Catholic church, I don't have to consult a huge book like the catechism of the Catholic church. We have canon laws, but they aren't meant to answer every single issue as a whole. There is room for personal counsel.

okay, - I was wondering if there's an official rule because my family has not spoken to their priest.

Quote
4) You are making statements about the faith of your parents.

actually I think I did the exact opposite.. I told people here that my family does not attend church, and I was asked if they take their faith seriously and I said I can't judge that.. I also said that they do believe in God, I can see my dad especially is pretty interested in spiritual things. So I do not think I have made any judgement. As for them not attending church, that is not a judgement, that's just stating a fact...

Quote
This is a prime example of the differences between the faiths. There is no requirement to go to services a certain number of times a year in the Orthodox church. You go whenever you can. Why would you ask your parents to attend your services when they can attend theirs so rarely?

again, I have clarified before, that my parents only come with me when it's inconvenient for them not to, for example if we are travelling. I wouldn't tell my parents to go wait in the parking lot for me while I go to Mass Sad I'd rather invite them in.

Quote
Your attitude in even asking on this board is very selfish.

I don't understand why you're being so negative towards me and actually I feel you are judging me. I came here to ask a question out of respect for the Orthodox rules and faith. I didn't want to ask my parents to do something that their church would say it's a sin. Even though from the Cathoilc perspective, that is no sin at all. I already describied the times when I asked my family to come to Mass with me... that is when we are travelling, or one time there was a huge thunderstorm and my dad drove me to church and I asked him to come inside with me, because the other option was him waiting in the parking lot.  

Quote
Are you hoping to get back-up from online sources before you ask your parents?

no, I wanted to see if I'm asking them to sin, from the Orthodox perspective.

Quote
Your parents are your parents. If you are under 18 you shouldn't ask your parents to give up their faith so you can practice yours.

huh? I am not under 18.. but how am I asking them to give up their faith so I can practice mine? my parents do not attend church it's not like I'm making them go to Mass when they'd rather go to DL. I said, they come with me to Mass when it's inconvenient for them not to - like when we are travelling. I wanted to check if that is sinful for not. Furthermore, even when my dad does not work  on Sunday, my family still ends up not going to church. Do I wish for them to go to their church and receive the Sacraments? yes. My mom has not received Communion since her first Communion. I pray for them to come back to the Sacraments. But - if it's between them visiting a church with me and being near the Eucharist and holy things, or waiting for me outside or something, - when we are travelling, again, - it seems more charitable to invite them into the church.. and more beneficial. As for asking their priest, I have said that they did not have an opportunity to do this.

Quote
It sounds like they allow you to practice your faith, let them practice theirs without judging them because they don't go to services "often enough" in your view. Children know little about their parents unless they ask. From the comments you have made, it sounds like you haven't ever tried to find out about your parents faith.

you are actually making so many judgements of me here. Where have I judged my parents?? I actually said the opposite, - please read my other posts. And I've spoken a lot about faith with my parents.
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« Reply #70 on: May 09, 2011, 04:44:04 PM »

Looking at your posting history, you seemed to have been conflicted up until recently about whether or not you should be Catholic or Orthodox. This makes this entire train of thought on this thread have an entirely different meaning. Stop trying to have both and bringing your parents along for the ride.

I'm sorry but you're being very rude. You have no way of knowing what I think. I'm not trying to have "both".. I did wonder in that past if I should be Catholic or Orthodox, but now, I am certain I should be Catholic. My parents do not attend the Orthodox church regularly, but when we travel, I still have my Sunday obligation and must attend Mass. When this happens, my parents do not want me travelling by myself in an unknown city to get to a church, so they drop me off or come with me. Then, I invite them in, because otherwise they'd just wait in the parking lot or something and I don't feel that would be charitable. Other times, I invited them in for other reasons, like that time with the thunderstorm that I described. Other times, it's actually my dad who WANTED to visit a Catholic cathedral and invited me. ie: he brought it up. My dad likes the Catholic church and feels peace there, and he doesn't feel there's a problem with him visiting there. I don't feel there's a problem either, obviously because I'm Catholic. But I know the Orthodox church has sort of stricter views on Orthodox visiting Catholic churches.. so I wanted to check if there's a rule or something, and if so, I could keep that in mind and not invite my family anymore. The way you responded to me, was very judgemental, and I don't understand why.
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« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2011, 04:45:18 PM »

If you are over 18, why do you need your parents to go to services with you at all?

I hope my other posts have answered this.. like I said, it's not in everyday situations. Other times, it's actually my dad who wanted to visit with me.

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How long have you been Catholic?



since 2009.
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« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2011, 04:45:25 PM »

Quote

I can't comment on my family and their spiritual life, I know they do believe in God, and I know my dad reads the Bible etc.. but let's say if a person weren't serious about their faith, as an Orthodox, would it be less serious for them to visit a Catholic church and pray there?
What is this supposed to mean then?
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« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2011, 04:47:06 PM »

How can you decide if someone is serious about their faith or not? If you are asking the above question, then it is implied that you think this could be true about your parents.
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« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2011, 04:49:02 PM »

Quote

thanks for the description.. would you say that it could ever be spiritually beneficial for an Orthodox to visit a Catholic church to pray there? for example, if there are no Orthodox churches nearby at all, or if they are not really practicing and at least this way they are going to a church.. (rather than none)

The Orthodox church is not just about attending services. By making this statement, you are implying that they aren't really practicing.
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« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2011, 04:50:19 PM »

Quote

I can't comment on my family and their spiritual life, I know they do believe in God, and I know my dad reads the Bible etc.. but let's say if a person weren't serious about their faith, as an Orthodox, would it be less serious for them to visit a Catholic church and pray there?
What is this supposed to mean then?

what I said, is that: my dad IS serious about his faith, but IF someone wasn't, - would it be good for them to visit a Catholic church.
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« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2011, 04:51:25 PM »

How can you decide if someone is serious about their faith or not? If you are asking the above question, then it is implied that you think this could be true about your parents.

No, it was a hypothetical question, because just before that I clarified - my dad reads the Bible, etc. About my mom, she is more private about her faith so I don't know fully. With my dad though, we talk about faith all the time.
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« Reply #77 on: May 09, 2011, 04:52:55 PM »

Quote

thanks for the description.. would you say that it could ever be spiritually beneficial for an Orthodox to visit a Catholic church to pray there? for example, if there are no Orthodox churches nearby at all, or if they are not really practicing and at least this way they are going to a church.. (rather than none)

The Orthodox church is not just about attending services. By making this statement, you are implying that they aren't really practicing.

when I said "practicing", I meant going to church. I meant, - if they don't go to church, maybe it would be better to go to a Catholic church sometimes, then none at all. I think I know what I meant to say Sad I am not certain what you are trying to prove Sad I think only God and I know what I was thinking when I wrote these posts, since we can't read minds lol.
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« Reply #78 on: May 09, 2011, 04:55:41 PM »

Going to a church is never a replacement for going to the church.


You never really know, your parents could be incredibly pious Orthodox Christians. Telling people online about them to get the go-ahead to take them to a heterodox church (no matter how well meaning) is not a good idea.
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« Reply #79 on: May 09, 2011, 04:57:52 PM »

Going to a church is never a replacement for going to the church.

I know that since you are Orthodox, you believe that the Orthodox Church is the true one. But even so, - if it's a choice between not going to ANY church, and sometimes visiting a Catholic church, - why is the second option worse?
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« Reply #80 on: May 09, 2011, 04:59:08 PM »

I'm still have Having a Very Hard Difficult ,time Believing What you Saying
It.Could be You want to see the reactions of us Orthodox On a Orthodox Forum...Hummm

Maybe I should Go to Catholic Answers Forum ,Tell them ,My Parents are Cradle
Non Practicing Roman Catholic's But I their Son am a Practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian
And want to take them to The eastern Orthodox Church with me,  and wait To see what the reaction will be..... Grin
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« Reply #81 on: May 09, 2011, 05:02:24 PM »

I know that since you are Orthodox, you believe that the Orthodox Church is the true one. But even so, - if it's a choice between not going to ANY church, and sometimes visiting a Catholic church, - why is the second option worse?

It's a choice between going to any church and going to a place that imitates a Church but it's not. You don't go to a Church in both cases but at least you are aware of this in the first option.
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« Reply #82 on: May 09, 2011, 05:02:52 PM »

Either you are accidentally or intentionally being misleading, I don't know which. Either your parents never attend any church, or they only occasionally attend church. If they are attending the Orthodox church at all, they are attending Orthodox services. You make it sound like you want to make them more spiritual. You don't have the responsibility, capacity or ability to do that.
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« Reply #83 on: May 09, 2011, 05:03:02 PM »



You never really know, your parents could be incredibly pious Orthodox Christians. Telling people online about them to get the go-ahead to take them to a heterodox church (no matter how well meaning) is not a good idea.

sigh.......

firstly, - I already told you all that my dad is pretty serious about his faith BUT does not attend church, mostly because he's either working, or he feels too tired to drive an hour to get there. Please stop insisting that I am judging my parents when I haven't said anything like that about them.I think I know my parents, I've spoken to them quite a bit about faith and about their perspective on it. With my mom, she's more private about it. Secondly, - you're ASSUMING that the reason I'm asking this question is to get some sort of online "permission" to invite my parents to Mass.. when actually I was doing the OPPOSITE, I wanted to make sure that I'm not making them sin by doing this. If people had said, yes you are making them sin, I would have stopped. People said, - it depends on the priest's guidance... however they haven't talked to their priest, and when I actually brought this topic up with my dad, he told me that he doesn't feel it's sinful to visit a Catholic church. Soo... I'm not sure which course of action to take. But you're insisting on something that you really have no way of knowing. Thirdly.. i pray every day for my parents to being receiving the Sacraments again - at THEIR church. So - no I'm not trying to convert anyone.
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« Reply #84 on: May 09, 2011, 05:04:32 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote

thanks for the description.. would you say that it could ever be spiritually beneficial for an Orthodox to visit a Catholic church to pray there? for example, if there are no Orthodox churches nearby at all, or if they are not really practicing and at least this way they are going to a church.. (rather than none)

The Orthodox church is not just about attending services. By making this statement, you are implying that they aren't really practicing.

Please, I must insist, you are being totally out of line here, you should relax a bit, your comments are increasingly hostile and needlessly antagonistic, and worst of all, add little to no substance to the OP question and discussion.  Essentially, you are just badgering the OP and that is really silly to say the least.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #85 on: May 09, 2011, 05:05:12 PM »

Going to a church is never a replacement for going to the church.

I know that since you are Orthodox, you believe that the Orthodox Church is the true one. But even so, - if it's a choice between not going to ANY church, and sometimes visiting a Catholic church, - why is the second option worse?

If an Orthodox family is isolated from an Orthodox church they are advised to pray at home in front of their icon corner.

If your parents are unaccustomed to praying, then I would think that one course open to you is to speak to the priest of an Orthodox church, explain the situation to him and ask him for a Prayerbook for your mother and one for your father.
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« Reply #86 on: May 09, 2011, 05:05:20 PM »

I'm still have Having a Very Hard Difficult ,time Believing What you Saying
It.Could be You want to see the reactions of us Orthodox On a Orthodox Forum...Hummm

Maybe I should Go to Catholic Answers Forum ,Tell them ,My Parents are Cradle
Non Practicing Roman Catholic's But I their Son am a Practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian
 a wait To see what the reaction will be..... Grin

you know.. I really don't understand the negative reactions I'm getting here. I came to ask a question *out of respect for the Orthodox faith*. If you believe I am lying and am actually some sort of troll, - please do, - I'm glad that at least God knows the truth.
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« Reply #87 on: May 09, 2011, 05:06:18 PM »

I know that since you are Orthodox, you believe that the Orthodox Church is the true one. But even so, - if it's a choice between not going to ANY church, and sometimes visiting a Catholic church, - why is the second option worse?

It's a choice between going to any church and going to a place that imitates a Church but it's not. You don't go to a Church in both cases but at least you are aware of this in the first option.

I'm sorry I don't understand what you are saying. The Catholic church is a church.. it's not any sort of secular building.
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« Reply #88 on: May 09, 2011, 05:08:21 PM »

I don't have a negative reaction to you and bear you no ill will. But I see in your entire posting history a fundamental issue with a pull between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. You say they don't attend church, then your say they do...you are trying to give us a picture of what they are like in order to get advice, but the picture you paint of your parents keeps changing.
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« Reply #89 on: May 09, 2011, 05:12:00 PM »

I know that since you are Orthodox, you believe that the Orthodox Church is the true one. But even so, - if it's a choice between not going to ANY church, and sometimes visiting a Catholic church, - why is the second option worse?

It's a choice between going to any church and going to a place that imitates a Church but it's not. You don't go to a Church in both cases but at least you are aware of this in the first option.

I'm sorry I don't understand what you are saying. The Catholic church is a church.. it's not any sort of secular building.

A Mormon Church is also not a secular building.
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« Reply #90 on: May 09, 2011, 05:12:32 PM »

I don't have a negative reaction to you and bear you no ill will. But I see in your entire posting history a fundamental issue with a pull between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. You say they don't attend church, then your say they do...you are trying to give us a picture of what they are like in order to get advice, but the picture you paint of your parents keeps changing.

Your absolutely correct....Keep the questions going ..... police
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« Reply #91 on: May 09, 2011, 05:18:43 PM »

Folks, remember that Roman Catholics posters can't present their Church's teachings here. If you want to start a discussion with LittleFlower about her faith (insted of the Orthodox Church teachings) do it there. It's not fair, don't you think?
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« Reply #92 on: May 09, 2011, 05:19:37 PM »

If you have genuine respect for faith and piety of your parent, why would you ask if it is OK for them to attend a mass with you, if your father thinks it is OK, even if you find evidence to the contrary online, what would it accomplish to present it to him? Do you not trust his ability to know what is proper as an Orthodox Christian? Why ask strangers, when the man that helped give you life, and who you have said has a strong faith has told you it is OK?
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« Reply #93 on: May 09, 2011, 05:20:20 PM »


If an Orthodox family is isolated from an Orthodox church they are advised to pray at home in front of their icon corner.

that is a good idea, - they do not have an icon corner yet but my dad wants to make one. However, on Sundays my dad works.. also I'm not sure how to introduce the concept to them tactfully

Quote
If your parents are unaccustomed to praying, then I would think that one course open to you is to speak to the priest of an Orthodox church, explain the situation to him and ask him for a Prayerbook for your mother and one for your father.

I agree, that could work.. we do have a prayerbook at home, - it's one that a friend gave me.. it's Orthodox.. maybe I could get one just for my family and simply place it where the future icon corner would be.
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« Reply #94 on: May 09, 2011, 05:20:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and
I don't have a negative reaction to you and bear you no ill will. But I see in your entire posting history a fundamental issue with a pull between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. You say they don't attend church, then your say they do...you are trying to give us a picture of what they are like in order to get advice, but the picture you paint of your parents keeps changing.

No it hasn't, the OP has been exceptionally honest and open, you've just been reading these with clear and unreasonably chip on your shoulder.  The OP was asking our opinion as Orthodox regarding how our Church would deal with this situation.  The OP was not asking to be judged or condemned or treated with hostility.  Also, the OP seemed quite sincere.  You just read into way too many lines, and as we in Rastafari say, "If a' fish woulda keep him big yap shut, him never woulda got caught!"

The OP was asking what our Orthodox opinion might be regarding any Canons or Laws that were violated, and several responses were clear that in Orthodox we do have such regulations, but those with sincere responses unanimously (and rightfully) suggested that the OP bring this issue specifically to their respective clergy for more specific advice in the proper implementation of the respective Canons and Laws.  However, the OP did not ask for our negative opinions about the Catholic Church, really, they didn't ask for any polemics at all, rather just what Orthodox teaches, and perhaps for us to season our response with our own experience.  No where did this require we Orthodox to be jerks about it.

To LittleFlower, I apologize for some of our ruder members, but unfortunately you are seeing for yourself that the anti-Catholic sentiments here on the Forum can be quite overly pronounced and some folks are just outright negative Sad Thank you for being the more Christian person about it and responding to some of the negativity with positivity and sincerity, I applaud your patience.

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie
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« Reply #95 on: May 09, 2011, 05:21:31 PM »

Putting aside any advise you will receive thru this thread, the above question is vital. Let's say that you find out that they can't attend services with you. Are you going to tell your father that he can't go with you anymore even though he believes it is OK?
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« Reply #96 on: May 09, 2011, 05:23:19 PM »

But the Holy Orthodox Church Is The Ancient and Authentic Catholic Church ,Whole ,Complete,Lack's Nothing....For where the Bishop is Gathered with his Flock ,that's where the Catholic Church is..... police



I know that since you are Orthodox, you believe that the Orthodox Church is the true one. But even so, - if it's a choice between not going to ANY church, and sometimes visiting a Catholic church, - why is the second option worse?

It's a choice between going to any church and going to a place that imitates a Church but it's not. You don't go to a Church in both cases but at least you are aware of this in the first option.

I'm sorry I don't understand what you are saying. The Catholic church is a church.. it's not any sort of secular building.
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« Reply #97 on: May 09, 2011, 05:25:10 PM »

Quote
However, the OP did not ask for our negative opinions about the Catholic Church, really, they didn't ask for any polemics at all, rather just what Orthodox teaches, and perhaps for us to season our response with our own experience.  No where did this require we Orthodox to be jerks about it.


I would like to see a quote in this thread where I have said anything negative about the Catholic church. I have said it isn't the church, but as an Orthodox Christian I must believe that the Orthodox church is the church.
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« Reply #98 on: May 09, 2011, 05:25:31 PM »

I'm sorry I don't understand what you are saying. The Catholic church is a church.. it's not any sort of secular building.

I think it's hard to fully explain (nicely, anyway) why many Orthodox are wary in these matters. Consider the following as one way of viewing things, though this is only a part of it. In the old days they used to seal letters with wax, and then put a seal or imprint on the wax as a sign of who the letter was from. Some Church Fathers (e.g., St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration 2, 43) used this custom in trying to explain how teachings from other groups impact you. The Fathers said that once someone else has put their imprint on you, it's harder to imprint the Orthodox belief onto you. In other words, it's easier to teach people or help them when they haven't been exposed to a multitude of beliefs. The worry is that, if you are Orthodox and attend a Catholic Church, you might start to get papal infallibility or the immaculate conception or whatever else imprinted into you, and that is a problem since it is unOrthodox. Better, the Fathers said, for you not to get the beliefs of other groups imprinted onto you at all, so that you are either a clean slate, or have the Orthodox imprint on you.
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« Reply #99 on: May 09, 2011, 05:27:54 PM »

The post violating the rules was moved there. I know it's not against the rules to keep asking her questions that she can't answer in this section but I ask you to stop it.
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« Reply #100 on: May 09, 2011, 05:31:01 PM »

I am not arguing the theological side of the question, I argue the parental side of this argument. We have the parents that we do for a reason. We can not, and should not seek to make them into what we think that they should be. By thinking it is better to attend a church rather than no church you are saying that they don't attend church enough. This is an issue that should be between you and your parents, not taken online. I have no desire to know about the history of your parents attending church. As far as I see it has no bearing on the original question whatsoever. The issue is whether or not your trust that your parents know enough about their faith to make wise decisions.
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« Reply #101 on: May 09, 2011, 05:31:28 PM »

I don't have a negative reaction to you and bear you no ill will. But I see in your entire posting history a fundamental issue with a pull between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. You say they don't attend church, then your say they do...you are trying to give us a picture of what they are like in order to get advice, but the picture you paint of your parents keeps changing.

I think it's always wise to assume the best about people rather than the worst. I already explained...... the reason "that keeps changing" is because I don't KNOW how to explain my family's situation. I already described it. They sometimes attend church on Easter, but not always. So how do I describe that? "rarely attend"? "don't attend"? "don't attend regularly"? no idea!
but as for Catholicism and Orthodoxy, - I have been certain for some time about being Catholic.
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« Reply #102 on: May 09, 2011, 05:31:28 PM »

I know that since you are Orthodox, you believe that the Orthodox Church is the true one. But even so, - if it's a choice between not going to ANY church, and sometimes visiting a Catholic church, - why is the second option worse?

It's a choice between going to any church and going to a place that imitates a Church but it's not. You don't go to a Church in both cases but at least you are aware of this in the first option.

I'm sorry I don't understand what you are saying. The Catholic church is a church.. it's not any sort of secular building.

A Mormon Church is also not a secular building.

but it is a church..
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« Reply #103 on: May 09, 2011, 05:31:28 PM »

I don't have a negative reaction to you and bear you no ill will. But I see in your entire posting history a fundamental issue with a pull between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. You say they don't attend church, then your say they do...you are trying to give us a picture of what they are like in order to get advice, but the picture you paint of your parents keeps changing.

I do not have doubts about my choice to be Catholic anymore...

 but about my family, - what I mean is that they only attend on Easter, but not always. There are years when they don't attend on Easter either. So I'm not sure how to describe that.. "never"? "rarely"? "not regularly"? you tell me.....
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« Reply #104 on: May 09, 2011, 05:36:09 PM »

I am not arguing the theological side of the question, I argue the parental side of this argument. We have the parents that we do for a reason. We can not, and should not seek to make them into what we think that they should be. By thinking it is better to attend a church rather than no church you are saying that they don't attend church enough. This is an issue that should be between you and your parents, not taken online. I have no desire to know about the history of your parents attending church. As far as I see it has no bearing on the original question whatsoever. The issue is whether or not your trust that your parents know enough about their faith to make wise decisions.

so you are essentially saying that IF my parents were atheists, i should not wish for them to be Christian? I can not agree with this. Yes I do wish for my parents to attend church more than 1 or less times a year. Yes I wish for them to come to the Sacraments. That's because I love my family and want the best for them.
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« Reply #105 on: May 09, 2011, 05:36:32 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and
I don't have a negative reaction to you and bear you no ill will. But I see in your entire posting history a fundamental issue with a pull between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. You say they don't attend church, then your say they do...you are trying to give us a picture of what they are like in order to get advice, but the picture you paint of your parents keeps changing.

No it hasn't, the OP has been exceptionally honest and open, you've just been reading these with clear and unreasonably chip on your shoulder.  The OP was asking our opinion as Orthodox regarding how our Church would deal with this situation.  The OP was not asking to be judged or condemned or treated with hostility.  Also, the OP seemed quite sincere.  You just read into way too many lines, and as we in Rastafari say, "If a' fish woulda keep him big yap shut, him never woulda got caught!"

The OP was asking what our Orthodox opinion might be regarding any Canons or Laws that were violated, and several responses were clear that in Orthodox we do have such regulations, but those with sincere responses unanimously (and rightfully) suggested that the OP bring this issue specifically to their respective clergy for more specific advice in the proper implementation of the respective Canons and Laws.  However, the OP did not ask for our negative opinions about the Catholic Church, really, they didn't ask for any polemics at all, rather just what Orthodox teaches, and perhaps for us to season our response with our own experience.  No where did this require we Orthodox to be jerks about it.

To LittleFlower, I apologize for some of our ruder members, but unfortunately you are seeing for yourself that the anti-Catholic sentiments here on the Forum can be quite overly pronounced and some folks are just outright negative Sad Thank you for being the more Christian person about it and responding to some of the negativity with positivity and sincerity, I applaud your patience.

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie

thanks for your support Smiley God bless.
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« Reply #106 on: May 09, 2011, 05:37:43 PM »

I am not arguing the theological side of the question, I argue the parental side of this argument. We have the parents that we do for a reason. We can not, and should not seek to make them into what we think that they should be. By thinking it is better to attend a church rather than no church you are saying that they don't attend church enough. This is an issue that should be between you and your parents, not taken online. I have no desire to know about the history of your parents attending church. As far as I see it has no bearing on the original question whatsoever. The issue is whether or not your trust that your parents know enough about their faith to make wise decisions.

so you are essentially saying that IF my parents were atheists, i should not wish for them to be Christian? I can not agree with this. Yes I do wish for my parents to attend church more than 1 or less times a year. Yes I wish for them to come to the Sacraments. That's because I love my family and want the best for them.

But your parents aren't atheists, by your statements they are strong in their faith. Huh
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 05:38:10 PM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #107 on: May 09, 2011, 05:42:33 PM »

Wishing for someone to have a deeper faith is nice in theory. Wishing that an atheist will find faith is a positive thing, and prayer to that end should be lauded. That isn't what you are doing. You are hoping to rekindle the Orthodox faith of your parents by having them attend a Catholic service? That would be like trying to savor the taste of oranges by eating apples. They are both fruit, but they are not the same. Eating an apple will not satisfy the hunger for an orange. Nor will eating an apple when you should want an orange make you want an orange more.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 05:43:39 PM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #108 on: May 09, 2011, 06:00:46 PM »

Putting aside any advise you will receive thru this thread, the above question is vital. Let's say that you find out that they can't attend services with you. Are you going to tell your father that he can't go with you anymore even though he believes it is OK?

You don't have to talk about Catholic doctrine to answer the above question, and it is an important one. Either your parents are strong enough in their faith, and you respect them enough to judge for themselves, or they are too weak to know and you need to find out for them. You have said that they are fine with going with you. What more do you need than that?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 06:02:23 PM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #109 on: May 09, 2011, 06:02:30 PM »

Little Flower,

To me, this just seems like an extremely personal matter, between you and your parents, and your parents and God. I don't think you will find a satisfactory answer on a forum.

If, in general, Orthodox people are not going to Orthodox churches, I believe they should be encouraged to go to Orthodox churches and to examine their reasons for not going, and also consult an experienced Orthodox spiritual father. (I would add, from an Orthodox perspective, given our historical experience of "sheep stealing," that it would be less "offensive" to many Orthodox if you encouraged your parents to go to a church of their faith than of yours--that is just my opinion. I have had experience living in a mixed-faith home. I don't say in your case, but in many cases what might be considered by one a "friendly invitation" carries with it a more mixed meaning. I'm sure that you only want your parents to experience the kind of spiritual meaning you have in your life, but they will need to find this on not just their own terms, but, if they are going to take their baptism seriously, on the Orthodox Church's terms, for they pledged at baptism to be faithful to her until death.)

For purposes of prayer, it is better for Orthodox to pray at home than to visit non-Orthodox churches out of convenience.
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