Author Topic: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question  (Read 4704 times)

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Offline Agabus

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The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« on: May 04, 2011, 11:49:00 AM »
the 'scoba' website does not contain the oriental orthodox churches (OO).
they are just as orthodox as the eastern orthodox churches (EO).
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the 'scoba' website does not contain the oriental orthodox churches (OO).
they are just as orthodox as the eastern orthodox churches (EO).
Amen!
I suppose the question that is being begged is for those OO who say this is: would you become EO if you did not have an OO church readily available? Likewise, if our differences are so small, would you EO who feel the same become OO if that was your only option?

What role does communion play in defining the Orthodox faith?
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Offline Melodist

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2011, 02:08:55 PM »
I think the answer lies in 1 Cor 10:17

For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

So then the questions become "Is Christ on the altar?" and "Do we share what we serve on the altar?".

I would say that if one were to ask the above two questions about any two churches and come up with opposing answers, then something is wrong with the situation and should be corrected.

Just my opinion.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Father Peter

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2011, 02:17:55 PM »
I know OO who attend and commune at EO churches because of their isolation, and I know of EO who attend and commune at OO churches because of their isolation.

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Offline Alpo

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2011, 03:01:54 PM »
I know OO who attend and commune at EO churches because of their isolation, and I know of EO who attend and commune at OO churches because of their isolation.

Father Peter

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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2011, 03:03:02 PM »
I have Ethiopian (OO) brothers and sisters that commune with me at my EO parish as well Father.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 03:03:50 PM by PoorFoolNicholas »

Offline Father Peter

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2011, 03:26:04 PM »
I don't see anything wrong with it, especially in the context of a lay person being isolated from their own community and seeking sacramental participation in an Orthodox church.

I think there is a need for some reserve in terms of priestly and episcopal concelebration, although this happens in some places. But I personally don't have a problem with lay inter-communion.

It has already been agreed in principle and practice in both the Antiochian and Alexandrian sees. Therefore it seems to me that it is not problematic. I don't believe that most EO and most OO believe anything different. The Synods of all the OO have accepted the view that the EO are Orthodox. So have some of the EO Synods.

I know several EO bishops who commune OO. I know OO bishops who commune EO.

I believe there is a different situation in communing laity and concelebration of clergy.
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Offline mike

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2011, 03:33:09 PM »
I think there is a need for some reserve in terms of priestly and episcopal concelebration, although this happens in some places. But I personally don't have a problem with lay inter-communion.

Can you give some examples?
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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2011, 03:43:33 PM »
Likewise, if our differences are so small, would you EO who feel the same become OO if that was your only option?

Yes, certainly :)

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2011, 03:49:02 PM »
Likewise, if our differences are so small, would you EO who feel the same become OO if that was your only option?

Yes, certainly :)
Same here.

Offline genesisone

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2011, 03:49:46 PM »
Likewise, if our differences are so small, would you EO who feel the same become OO if that was your only option?

Yes, certainly :)
Same here.
As would I.

Offline Father Peter

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2011, 04:09:51 PM »
Not sure what you mean by examples.

Lay communion of members of the other Orthodox community happens very widely.
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Offline mike

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2011, 04:15:53 PM »
You wrote that joint episcopal celebration between the EO and OO happens in some palces. Could you prove it?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 04:16:05 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2011, 04:16:50 PM »
Father,

Would an EO who becomes part of an OO church have to "renounce" the three post-schism EO Ecumenical Councils?
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Offline Father Peter

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2011, 04:31:52 PM »
It is the case that concelebrations are allowed for in the agreement between the Antiochian and Syrian Orthodox Churches.

I cannot say that episcopal concelebrations, I don't believe they have taken place, but they seem to be allowed for.

I would not expect an EO who became OO to renounce the latter councils, but view them in a moderated manner. This would especially apply to those aspects which condemned OO Fathers. It would be proper to view them as important Orthodox documents which should be understood in relation to the universal Orthodox Faith, and not only within the narrow confines of the historical EO historical narrative.

An OO may consider the latter councils important local Byzantine conciliar statements. To not be ecumenical is not the same as being of no value. But an OO would want to read them in their context and understand those aspects which are problematic to the OO Tradition. Constantinople 553, for instance, is almost entirely acceptable as it is, when taken as a document.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2011, 04:39:24 PM »
It is the case that concelebrations are allowed for in the agreement between the Antiochian and Syrian Orthodox Churches.

I cannot say that episcopal concelebrations, I don't believe they have taken place, but they seem to be allowed for.

I would not expect an EO who became OO to renounce the latter councils, but view them in a moderated manner. This would especially apply to those aspects which condemned OO Fathers. It would be proper to view them as important Orthodox documents which should be understood in relation to the universal Orthodox Faith, and not only within the narrow confines of the historical EO historical narrative.

An OO may consider the latter councils important local Byzantine conciliar statements. To not be ecumenical is not the same as being of no value. But an OO would want to read them in their context and understand those aspects which are problematic to the OO Tradition. Constantinople 553, for instance, is almost entirely acceptable as it is, when taken as a document.

I wonder if there will ever be a declared statement that when a person is anathematized in a council, this can actually be an anathematization of the perceived teaching of that person regardless of that person's actual beliefs.

Ex: We anathematize Nietzsche for his Nihilism (though I don't know under what circumstances such a thing would occur). Many philosophers subsequently declare that Nietzsche himself did not teach or believe what is condemned today as Nihilism. It is irrelevant, however, for the anathematization, what Nietzsche actually believed, because we are referring instead to the teaching commonly associated with him.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 04:40:48 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline mike

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2011, 04:41:58 PM »
Please, do not write so definite statements if you are not sure.
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Offline Father Peter

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2011, 04:45:54 PM »
Well to a great extent I agree with you.

While I do entirely believe that Nestorius had a defective Christology I am more concerned that none of my congregation embrace or profess Nestorianism than whether or not Nestorius did or did not believe any particular doctrines. He is beyond the judgement of men and must stand before the Just Judge who knows all things.

It would seem to me to be more important that we agree, for instance, that Nestorianism is a false Christology, and why, than that we need to agree on the same narrative of history. Though in the case of Nestorius we probably do accept the same narrative as well as share the same rejection of his views.

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2011, 04:49:10 PM »
Well to a great extent I agree with you.

While I do entirely believe that Nestorius had a defective Christology I am more concerned that none of my congregation embrace or profess Nestorianism than whether or not Nestorius did or did not believe any particular doctrines. He is beyond the judgement of men and must stand before the Just Judge who knows all things.

It would seem to me to be more important that we agree, for instance, that Nestorianism is a false Christology, and why, than that we need to agree on the same narrative of history. Though in the case of Nestorius we probably do accept the same narrative as well as share the same rejection of his views.

Father Peter
Then, perhaps, Father, and this is just speculation,

The condemnations of OO Fathers at the Council of Chalcedon could be perceived in the same way by the EO. As condemnations of their perceived monophysitism rather than the actual teachings of those Fathers themselves.

Then, perhaps, and once again, this is just speculation,

They could begin to refer to these Fathers as "blessed" as they do to Augustine.

Perhaps.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 04:49:23 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline mike

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2011, 04:53:10 PM »
They could begin to refer to these Fathers as "blessed" as they do to Augustine.

The Orthodox "Blessed" is not subordinate to "Saint" (like in the RC Church) but it's the kind of "Saint" (like "Martyr" or "Confessor").
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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2011, 04:54:12 PM »
They could begin to refer to these Fathers as "blessed" as they do to Augustine.

The Orthodox "Blessed" is not subordinate to "Saint" (like in the RC Church) but it's the kind of "Saint" (like "Martyr" or "Confessor").
Oh, my mistake.
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Offline Michał

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2011, 05:24:16 PM »
They could begin to refer to these Fathers as "blessed" as they do to Augustine.

The Orthodox "Blessed" is not subordinate to "Saint" (like in the RC Church) but it's the kind of "Saint" (like "Martyr" or "Confessor").

That's right. "Blessed" is a title traditionally attributed to fools-for-Christ. AFAIK, attributing it to people who are locally venerated but not glorified yet (like Fr. Seraphim of Platina) or to people whom we consider saintly but whose teachings seem to a bit problematic (like Bp. Augustine of Hippo) is a rather modern invention and probably a RC influence.

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2011, 06:01:31 PM »
And Saint Augustine IS a saint in the Orthodox Church, for those unaware.

Offline IsmiLiora

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2011, 06:04:53 PM »
And Saint Augustine IS a saint in the Orthodox Church, for those unaware.
I have read sources that said that he is highly respected but not a saint. Where might they have gotten that idea?
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2011, 06:10:13 PM »
Whomever you may have read was misinformed.
For example:
I love Fr. Romanides works, but for his edition of Ancestral Sin in English he expressed the wish that St. Augustine be referred to only as Augustine. Not even a Blessed. Augustine's teachings have been really misconstrued, and have lead to a lot of heresy, but that doesn't mean he is a heretic. And he is most definitely an Orthodox Saint.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 06:11:31 PM by PoorFoolNicholas »

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2011, 06:12:00 PM »
FWIW, Our family attends the Greek Othodox Church in our city (due to the fact that the nearest OO Church is 3 hours away.) My sons and I even serve at the altar, but we do not commune. The Priest at the Greek Church has told us that he will give us the Scaraments anytime we wish to receive. My EOTC Priest has told me that it is ok for us to attend the Church and serve at the altar, but he instructed us not to receive the Eucharist. When he returns from Ethiopia, I am going to ask him if he may grant us permission to commune in the EO Church. Of course, I will follow his counsel.

I have no doubt that I am in the presence of Christ in any Orthodox Church. I will always defend the Tewahedo Christological language, but I will never allow this issue to divide me from my EO brethren. But that's just my opinion.


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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2011, 06:17:03 PM »
And Saint Augustine IS a saint in the Orthodox Church, for those unaware.
I have read sources that said that he is highly respected but not a saint. Where might they have gotten that idea?

While Orthodox tradition is clear IMO that Augustine is a saint, nonetheless, if I recall correctly, St. Augustine was only added to some of the Orthodox calendars in the 20th century. Perhaps some people got the idea from this that he had not previously been considered a saint, and that the idea was an innovation. On the other hand, some people just genuinely seem to dislike him, and it's possible that such people took their own feelings/opinions and just assumed that Augustine couldn't be considered a saint because of some of his theology.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 06:17:33 PM by Asteriktos »

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2011, 06:18:14 PM »
Ah, thanks for the clarification, men. Although I didn't agree with everything he said, Augustine was one of my favorite saints as a Catholic.  Good to hear that he's also revered as such in the Orthodox Church.
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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2011, 06:21:19 PM »
And Saint Augustine IS a saint in the Orthodox Church, for those unaware.
I have read sources that said that he is highly respected but not a saint. Where might they have gotten that idea?

I don't know, but he's on the calendar.

I think people like to give him a hard time because of a combination of Protestant reformers (Calvin for example) who claim him as support for their views and being (falsely) credited by some for not correctly teaching the procession of the Holy Spirit.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2011, 07:03:59 PM »
Ah, thanks for the clarification, men. Although I didn't agree with everything he said, Augustine was one of my favorite saints as a Catholic.  Good to hear that he's also revered as such in the Orthodox Church.


One of my son's middle names is Augustine. I gave him that name long before I became Orthodox. And I have never regretted it.  ;)


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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2011, 07:40:57 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Father,

Would an EO who becomes part of an OO church have to "renounce" the three post-schism EO Ecumenical Councils?

In the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church essentially, yes , that would be the case.  I'm not quite sure about any necessary Reordination but I'm sure it would be required to renounce such Councils if the EO priest had previously personally confessed adherence to them, as the EOTC very much rejects any Councils after the first three. 

In regards to the comments of Ethiopians communing at EO parishes, this is a common practice, one which I have no feeings necessarily against, however the discipline of the EOTC is for Tewahedo Christians not commune outside of our sister Oriental Orthodox.  I pray for the inevitable unity of the Church, but at this time part of the Will of God is that we learn through a prayerful effort to adhere to His Will in our lives, as it is revealed day by day through the Church.  If the Church continues with closed communion, then that is the current Will of God in the matter, and any feelings we may have we need to take to prayer.  However, just because we do not commune should not stop us from fellowship as sincere Christian brothers and sisters.

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2011, 08:10:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Father,

Would an EO who becomes part of an OO church have to "renounce" the three post-schism EO Ecumenical Councils?

In the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church essentially, yes , that would be the case.  I'm not quite sure about any necessary Reordination but I'm sure it would be required to renounce such Councils if the EO priest had previously personally confessed adherence to them, as the EOTC very much rejects any Councils after the first three. 

In regards to the comments of Ethiopians communing at EO parishes, this is a common practice, one which I have no feeings necessarily against, however the discipline of the EOTC is for Tewahedo Christians not commune outside of our sister Oriental Orthodox.  I pray for the inevitable unity of the Church, but at this time part of the Will of God is that we learn through a prayerful effort to adhere to His Will in our lives, as it is revealed day by day through the Church.  If the Church continues with closed communion, then that is the current Will of God in the matter, and any feelings we may have we need to take to prayer.  However, just because we do not commune should not stop us from fellowship as sincere Christian brothers and sisters.

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie

Well said dear brother.


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Offline Salpy

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2011, 08:18:07 PM »
I think there is a need for some reserve in terms of priestly and episcopal concelebration, although this happens in some places. But I personally don't have a problem with lay inter-communion.

Can you give some examples?

I don't know enough to tell if these are priests or bishops:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aU_tehf9Dg

Offline StGeorge

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2011, 09:21:18 PM »
Whomever you may have read was misinformed.
For example:
I love Fr. Romanides works, but for his edition of Ancestral Sin in English he expressed the wish that St. Augustine be referred to only as Augustine. Not even a Blessed. Augustine's teachings have been really misconstrued, and have lead to a lot of heresy, but that doesn't mean he is a heretic. And he is most definitely an Orthodox Saint.

Yes, several Ecumenical Councils name him as one of the Fathers.  I do not agree with everything Augustine writes, but I do not see him as a heretic.  Not even his critics, St. Vincent of Lerins and St. John Cassian, called him a heretic, so far as I'm aware. 

Offline ipm

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2011, 09:46:58 PM »
I read stuff like what this link provides and I am left wondering about the communion question overall. where do things stand so to speak, offically (whatever that means)?

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/east_orth.aspx

 The tone is a bit sharp but it may make sense. Any comments?

"The designation "Oriental Orthodox" itself clearly illustrates the ecumenistic tendency to obfuscate essential theological differences with euphemisms. "
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 09:54:20 PM by ipm »

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2011, 09:52:27 PM »
I read stuff like what this link provides and I am left wondering about the communion question overall. where do things stand so to speak, offically (whatever that means)?

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/east_orth.aspx

 

If two groups who said the same thing using different terminology were separated for 1500 years, wouldn't you expect a conservative faction within each to react with skepticism to such a claim?

Isn't it, in fact, a good sign, revealing that the two churches share a commitment to avoid false union at all costs?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 09:54:20 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline ipm

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2011, 10:00:12 PM »
Fasle union is not good. I am not advocating one way or the other in terms of steps to take. I know little of this issue.

By the way, did you notice that in modern management-encrusted English no one has problems any more. They have issues.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 10:01:09 PM by ipm »

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2011, 10:11:18 PM »
The article doesn't really address the Christology "issue" :D, but claims differences.
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2011, 10:15:48 PM »
Fwiw, there is a small booklet available that discusses the claimed theological differences, titled: The Non-Chalcedonian Heretics: A Contribution to the Dialogue Concerning the “Orthodoxy” of the Non-Chalcedonians. The ECSC has it for $6, in case anyone is interested.

Offline Salpy

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2011, 10:40:02 PM »
Both that booklet and orthodoxinfo.com contain misinformation about the OO's. 

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2011, 10:46:06 PM »
Just to make sure no one misunderstands, I am not saying that I agree with the information in the booklet (or orthodoxinfo articles on the subject), I just wanted to bring up a source that tries (using patristic quotes, history, etc.) to make theological arguments against the idea that the EO and OO have pretty much the same beliefs; However, perhaps I should have said that if you are going to read such info, it'd also be good to read some literature from the opposite side.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 10:46:27 PM by Asteriktos »

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2011, 10:57:28 PM »
Personally, I would feel comfortable attending Liturgy at an OO temple, but would not receive Sacraments unless I was in situations similar to those previously mentioned and I had the blessing of my spiritual father and bishop.

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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2011, 12:15:08 AM »
I think that after I join the Orthodox Church, I would be in a similar position.  If I would up in a place where (for some bizzare reason) there was an OO Church but not an EO, I would only partake of communion with the permission of my bishop and spiritual father, and the priest and his bishop.  Of course, I also intend to do all I can to live only within a reasonable distance of an EO Church, for the rest of my life.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2011, 12:21:10 AM »
the three post-schism EO Ecumenical Councils?

Four of the seven councils are relevant:

1. Chalcedon
2. Constantinople II
3. Constantinople III
4. Nicaea II
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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2011, 12:23:48 AM »
I think there is a need for some reserve in terms of priestly and episcopal concelebration, although this happens in some places...

I cannot say that episcopal concelebrations, I don't believe they have taken place...

 ::)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 12:24:16 AM by deusveritasest »
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Re: The EO/OO Million Dollar Question
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2011, 12:30:15 AM »
I think there is a need for some reserve in terms of priestly and episcopal concelebration, although this happens in some places. But I personally don't have a problem with lay inter-communion.

Can you give some examples?

I don't know enough to tell if these are priests or bishops:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aU_tehf9Dg

Salpy, this is just a prayer service. The issue at hand was intercommunion.
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