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Author Topic: Site claims that C. S. Lewis was Evil  (Read 2507 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ebor
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« on: June 03, 2004, 03:19:24 PM »

I found think page from Taylor Marshall's Blog.  Great Googaly-Moogaly!!!

"C.S. Lewis The Devil's Wisest Fool"
http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/homemake/cslewis.htm

Some people shouldn't interpret books without a license...

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2004, 03:23:51 PM »

Oh dear sweet Mother of God!!!

Quote
John F. Kennedy, C.S. Lewis, and Aldous Huxley all died on the same day.

They all went to the same place.

If this right here is not a violation of "Judge not...", I don't know what is.  I don't even think the most virulent traditionalist Orthodox would say something like that (would they?).

It's so nice of these people to attack someone's reasons for converting when he's not alive to defend himself.

"By your fruits shall you be known" indeed!
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2004, 03:28:36 PM »

Stupid stuff, but at least this author noticed the many respects in which Lewis' theology, Christology and ecclesiology are not especially congenial to a radical, "reformed" point of view.  Many Calvinists with whom I worked recently loved Lewis, but embraced a theology which I believe Lewis would have found sorely lacking.
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2004, 03:48:29 PM »

I like the part where they are interpreting The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe in that the Turkish Delight the White Witch offers Edmund is actually hashish.  These people should stop the ostrich impression and really get their head out of, er, the ground.
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2004, 04:25:10 PM »

Yes, I found the Turkish Delight "revelation" to be a real eye-roller.  And just *how* would Edmund have eaten hasheesh? It's candy, sticky, sweet candy. It shows up in one of Dorothy L. Sayers' "Lord Peter Wimsey" mysteries too.  
You can buy a variant of turkish delight in the US called "Aplets and Cotlets" and not a bit of hasheesh at all.

I love the bits about Lewis is "considered a scholar" (he *was* one and a better one then these folk) and could he have been a "plant" from the RCs because he had "extreme unction" and confession.  They don't know beans about Anglicanism either.  And the slam at Joy Davidman and her first husband.  They might try reading the memoir by one of her sons whom Lewis cared for and educated.  Deep Sigh.  

Ebor
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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2004, 04:50:19 PM »

You shall know them by the fruit that they bear.  Seems to work for both C.S. Lewis and these juvenile critics of his.
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2004, 06:50:07 PM »

Sweet...merciful...crap.

I'm not even offended!  Or angry!  The grin on my face is huge right now, and I'm laughing!

My favorite part was this:
Quote
The word "ass" appears in 4 of the books.  Being British, it probably did not mean the same to him as it does to Americans (as a swear word), but he could have left it out, especially since he only used it four times and did use "donkey" in other places.  However, considering the filthy state of his mind, it is possible that he thought this cute.

WTF??!

I will say this, though -- at least the site's being consistent in demonizing ALL fantasy children's literature instead of JUST Harry Potter -- Tolkein and Lewis are also evil, as well.  Good to know.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2004, 07:59:43 PM »

Oh I'm not offended or anything like that.  More like *Deep Sigh*.  "What ARE they teaching in the schools?"  Or for someone who says he's lived in other countries, (the owner of the whole site) he sure seems to think that his way of thinking/understanding is the only way.  

I think Lewis himself would have laughed at him, or maybe taken his thesis apart like a freshman term paper.  I don't think that Lewis *ever* did something to be "cute".   Roll Eyes

The things he wrote about Tolkien were equally appalling in lack of understanding.

Ebor
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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2004, 10:51:54 PM »

I have seen that kind of garbage before, in a book I believe was called <New Age Lies To Women> by a women named Marrs.  Lewis and Tolkien are characterized as occult neo pagan writers, due to the nature of their fictional works. (The book is actually funny in some places)
 
Some people just dont get it- I chalk it up to an "irony deficiency" where they simply miss any literary allusion or device and read everything straight up. When you combine this with looking for the devil under every rock, these people can be plain nasty.

Lets pray for them and ourselves too!
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2004, 11:45:23 PM »

Oh my word!  Tex and Wanda Marrs! I hadn't thought about them in donkey's years  I heard them on the radio long time past about the New Age conspiracy.  Everything was tied together as a plot by the N.A.  

Unfortunately this isn't limited to the Fundigelical camp.  Some months ago on this forum was a discussion about Harry Potter with one EO person repeating that it was evil and satanic and no parent should allow their children to read fantasy stories.  

"Irony deficency"  good one.

Ebor
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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

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« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2004, 11:36:40 AM »

I agree that guy (and gal) is over-the-top.  

It was perusing fundamental baptist websites like this one (though not quite as extreme) that led me to read church history and opened my eyes to the historic church.  In investigating the claims of "KJV-only" and the so-called Baptist "Trail of Churches", I was able by God's grace to read what the first Christian believers actually taught and practiced.  

Of course, none of that would matter to this particular web-host and others like him(and her) as the Church allegedly fell into apostasy right after the apostles died.  Only now with the advent of the fundamentalists' enlightened interpretations of the Bible can we know the truth of the Gospel!! (yeah, right)
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2004, 08:09:13 PM »

DT, never mind the little statement that the gates of Hades won't prevail against the Church, right?  Christ didn't know what He was talking about, because the Fundegelicals (nice one, Ebor) weren't around to correct and interpret Him.

Oy.  The things fringers think up. Roll Eyes

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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2004, 12:13:49 AM »

I remember reading Tex Marrs a lot when I was Baptist.  I would probably laugh now if I read them, but people actually believe that stuff.

Well, I guess all those who read the Harry Potter books are going to end up in the same place, according to the Fundegelicals.  

The statement that Christ made about the gates of Hades not prevailing against His Church is another one of those verses that don't get highlighted, along with the section of John 6, where Christ says that unless you eat His flesh and drink His blood, He doesn't abide in you and you don't abide in Him.
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2004, 03:17:31 PM »

Quote
The statement that Christ made about the gates of Hades not prevailing against His Church is another one of those verses that don't get highlighted, along with the section of John 6, where Christ says that unless you eat His flesh and drink His blood, He doesn't abide in you and you don't abide in Him.

Oh, those get "dealt with," if you can call it that, by a fellow named John MacArthur, a guy a read some as a Baptist -- his idea is that, the gates of hell didn't prevail against the Church, in the sense that, the Church (such as it was before the reformation, you understand  Wink) was decieved due to ignorance of the Bible, but the truly faithful were still around to have true, saving faith in Christ and thus constitute the *real* Church.

Now, about John 6 -- hoo, boy -- you know how before the whole shpiel about "Eat my body, drink my blood, and I'll raise you up at the last day" there's this whole discourse, structured in much the same way, about believing in Christ (and we'll thus be raised up at the last day, etc.)?  His take on it is that, since all that came first, the Body/Blood discourse is just a repetition, based on some supposed rabbinical technique of Jesus' day, which is supposed to let us know that "eating my body and drinking my blood" is just a colorful way (I suppose) of saying, "believe in Me."

Never mind the fact that, in Hebrew thought, the general came first and the specific came second, i.e., TRULY believing in Christ is NECESITATES eating His Body and drinking His blood.  The Hebrews took this literally as the phrase "eat my body," when taken as an idiom, means "revile."

Guess it's just another example of how EVERYONE at the outset of Christianity got something so central so wrong...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2004, 05:28:43 PM »

I think that part of the "Gates of Hell" not prevailing is in the "Church in the Wilderness" as was mentioned over in the "Japan" thread with a claim that there were Christians in Japan around the 600-800s as well as the site I mentioned that had St. Patrick with all associations to the RC rubbed off. The idea is that the the Real Christians were in the apostles' time and a bit longer(before the RC came to power) and they survived through the centuries, persecuted when found, but always in little bits: Waldensians, Bible translations into the vernacular, that sort of thing.  

Ebor
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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2004, 08:22:45 PM »

*beats head against keyboard* WHY sdfru ARE 0p8sdfhi PEOPLE 08rowsdf SO rew80ysdf DENSE rpypisrhgsfph[i ?!?!?

What really scares me though, is that I would have believed this skubalon about a year and a half ago.
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2004, 08:58:03 PM »

Well, ExOrienteLux, I think that alot of it is because they don't really know or understand how to learn history or read liturature for other then literal meanings.  Just because someone says something or puts it up on the 'Net doesn't mean it really happened their way.  Or because an idea agrees with what the hearer likes/believes it doesn't follow that it is *true*.

Sometimes someone can sort of "stun" or overload the hearers/readers so that they don't ask questions like "Is this true?"  or "What are the sources?"  or "How do you KNOW that it happened this way?" or "Are there other hypotheses that could explain this?  or "Just because 2 things seem similar though separated by time and/or distance, why would they be related and with what proof?".  The "proofs" that the Japanese are really one of the 10 Lost Tribes  that purports to show how Shinto is really from Judaism is an eyebrow raiser...at least it was for me.

And a lot of this comes from reading through the "lens" of oneself and ones personal likes, dislikes and beliefs.  The makers of the pages against Lewis hold to the idea (for example) that any drinking of alcoholic beverages is BAD.  Therefore, when there is wine or beer mentioned in the Narnia books or it is known that Lewis himself would visit the Eagle and Child Pub (which they got the symbolism for wrong according to a book I have on English pubs) and (shudder!!) drink a pint that means that 1) the books are Evil and 2) Lewis was a "drunkard".  From reading biographies of Lewis I find it very hard to imagine Lewis drunk.  It would have interfered with his work, for one thing.

Ebor
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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

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« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2004, 11:07:03 PM »

Quote
I think that alot of it is because they don't really know or understand how to learn history or read liturature for other then literal meanings.  Just because someone says something or puts it up on the 'Net doesn't mean it really happened their way.  Or because an idea agrees with what the hearer likes/believes it doesn't follow that it is *true*.

Good Post Ebor!  The sad death of Classical education of any sort seems to result in both Barbarians and This brand of fundamentalism-Are Howard Stern/Jerry Springer and some "fundegelicals" two sides of the same coin?

Quote
And a lot of this comes from reading through the "lens" of oneself and ones personal likes, dislikes and beliefs.

One of the secondary gifts of being a Western person in an Eastern church is seeing the world through a much wider lens.


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« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2014, 04:19:28 PM »

Well, it's not such a stretch to say there may have been Christians in Japan in the 600s. There certainly were quite a few in China (led by the missionary Alopen) from 635 onward, and the religion was known as "Jiangjiao". Some archaeological evidence, and anecdotes among locals, suggests that there may have been Assyrian influence in Japan, too. The way Buddhism is practiced in these regions may indicate Christian influence at some point in the past.

However, the "Jiangjiao" most definitely weren't fundamental Baptists, or even Protestants. They were "Nestorian" (that term isn't strictly accurate, as their extant writings don't seem to imply that they necessarily held Nestorian dogma, and besides that, they were part of the same Persian church as St. Isaac of Syria, whose Orthodoxy is universally accepted).

Their extant writings (the "Nestorian" Stele, the Jesus Sutras, etc.) are a lot like something Hieromonk Damascene (Christ the Eternal Tao) could have written. Definitely not like anything you'd find from a fundamentalist.



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« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2014, 04:20:56 PM »

And as for the Turkish Delight thing....one wonders what those people think of this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcze7EGorOk

"Now it's Turkish Delight on a moonlit night...."
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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2014, 04:39:09 PM »

You do realize that conjuring up the spirits of the dead is a great evil? Wink
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« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2014, 04:44:47 PM »

Dead threads, you mean?

Woops....sorry. I found this thread by searching and didn't notice the dates on the original posts until it was too late....
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« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2014, 04:46:59 PM »

I'm just joking with you, ya know. Wink

Have you not seen that clause in the Netodox Creed? "I look for the resurrection of the thread." laugh
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« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2014, 04:53:55 PM »

Dead threads, you mean?

Woops....sorry. I found this thread by searching and didn't notice the dates on the original posts until it was too late....
fortunately, unlike on other forums I have been on, oc.net does not have a problem with resurrecting old threads. Otherwise, Justin Kissel would be banned by now.  laugh
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« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2014, 05:41:25 PM »

Dead threads, you mean?

Woops....sorry. I found this thread by searching and didn't notice the dates on the original posts until it was too late....
fortunately, unlike on other forums I have been on, oc.net does not have a problem with resurrecting old threads. Otherwise, Justin Kissel would be banned by now.  laugh

Other forums will close any thread that has not been active for more than a year. That policy is a pain and only creates work for mods who are not paid anyway.
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« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2014, 05:45:41 PM »

Dead threads, you mean?

Woops....sorry. I found this thread by searching and didn't notice the dates on the original posts until it was too late....
fortunately, unlike on other forums I have been on, oc.net does not have a problem with resurrecting old threads. Otherwise, Justin Kissel would be banned by now.  laugh

Other forums will close any thread that has not been active for more than a year. That policy is a pain and only creates work for mods who are not paid anyway.

A little script is all it takes to apply an automatic lock after X days of inactivity. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2014, 06:16:04 PM »

Well, he certainly wasn't evil--although arguably a bit misogynistic in his personal life--but he didn't really contribute anything that worthwhile to Christianity apart from that timeline at the end of one of his books--I think it was either Miracles: A Preliminary Study or The Problem of Pain--to reconcile together the alleged contradiction between God's foreknowledge and human free-will. This was needed at the time to tick off the annoying atheists with their deterministic world views. Other than that, he wasn't all that great.
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« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2014, 06:58:49 PM »

Dead threads, you mean?

Woops....sorry. I found this thread by searching and didn't notice the dates on the original posts until it was too late....
fortunately, unlike on other forums I have been on, oc.net does not have a problem with resurrecting old threads. Otherwise, Justin Kissel would be banned by now.  laugh

Other forums will close any thread that has not been active for more than a year. That policy is a pain and only creates work for mods who are not paid anyway.

A little script is all it takes to apply an automatic lock after X days of inactivity. Roll Eyes

That little mod was not used in those boards. Anniversary threads got closed, and they would not unlock them.
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« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2014, 07:06:04 PM »

Worse than evil, he was simply uninteresting as can be gleaned from the caliber of fan he attracts.
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« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2014, 08:36:51 PM »

Worse than evil, he was simply uninteresting as can be gleaned from the caliber of fan he attracts.

That would be pretty much everyone? Y'know, except rabid atheists who misread the ending of The Last Battle and evangelical to Orthodox/Roman Catholic converts who want to appear to cool for school and so over dancing with them whut brung em?
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« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 10:25:51 AM »

Well, it's not such a stretch to say there may have been Christians in Japan in the 600s. There certainly were quite a few in China (led by the missionary Alopen) from 635 onward, and the religion was known as "Jiangjiao". Some archaeological evidence, and anecdotes among locals, suggests that there may have been Assyrian influence in Japan, too. The way Buddhism is practiced in these regions may indicate Christian influence at some point in the past.

Hello, Minnesotan. Welcome to the forum.  Smiley

Would you happen to recall what the archeological evidence and anecdotes are please?  What part of Buddhism in Japan do you think might be influenced by "Nestorian" Christianity?  

Here is the link to a thread on Japan from some time back:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,3357.0.html






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« Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 10:48:32 AM »

Well, Samuel H. Moffett claimed to find some influences from "Jingjiao" on Chinese Buddhism.

Regarding Japan, there's this article (http://www.atour.com/religion/docs/20001221d.html) claiming that "one of the most sacred objects of the Nishi Honganji Buddhist Temple, founded by Kobo Daishi in 806 after his contact with a Nestorian Christian monastery in Beijing, is 'the Lord of the Universe's Discourse on Almsgiving,' a commentary on the Sermon on the Mount and other Matthean passages."
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« Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 11:19:14 AM »

Worse than evil, he was simply uninteresting as can be gleaned from the caliber of fan he attracts.
Unlike Heidegger, who always attracts the most lovely people.
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« Reply #33 on: Yesterday at 11:30:38 AM »

Well, Samuel H. Moffett claimed to find some influences from "Jingjiao" on Chinese Buddhism.

Regarding Japan, there's this article (http://www.atour.com/religion/docs/20001221d.html) claiming that "one of the most sacred objects of the Nishi Honganji Buddhist Temple, founded by Kobo Daishi in 806 after his contact with a Nestorian Christian monastery in Beijing, is 'the Lord of the Universe's Discourse on Almsgiving,' a commentary on the Sermon on the Mount and other Matthean passages."

Thank you for the information and for the link. If you go to the "Japan" thread you'll find that some of this is mentioned including the Rev. Ken Joseph and his opinions.  However, in the passage you quoted there are errors.  First, the Nishi Hongan Ji has no connection to Kobo Daishi (also known as Kukai).  The temple as it now exists was established by Tokugawa Ieyesu in 1602 though it has a longer history dating to the 12th century with Shinran the founder of "Pure Land" Buddhism in Japan.  Kobo Daishi's years are 774-835 and he is the founder of the "Shingon" school of that religion.

The history of the temple in English from the temple's site  http://www.hongwanji.or.jp/english/history.html
Information on Kobo Daishi   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%ABkai
Information on Shinran  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C5%8Ddo_Shinsh%C5%AB

So far, I have not found a reliable source for the document that is supposed to be housed at the Nishi Honganji.  There are many sites that just repeat the claim. 

I'm sorry, but the page that you linked to is dubious.  The assertion further down that the Cha-do is

" The Japanese tea ceremony "chado" was linked to the Catholic Mass, Reverend Joseph claimed, allowing practicing Christians to come together as a community to practice their faith through secret codes and adaptations.
For instance, tea cups were turned three times before drinking, to symbolize the Trinity, and napkins folded in a certain way to indicate that it was time to pray the Our Father silently." 

is certainly a claim.  But it is not the truth regarding the Tea Ceremony itself.  The tea did come to Japan from China, like many things, but the development of Cha-do is recorded and comes from Buddhism with the best known figure being Sen no Rikyu in the 16th century. 

I apologize, but that page should not be accepted without question.  There are no citations or sources given to support these claims and there are errors that can be easily checked.  If you are interested, I can give the titles of some books.


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« Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 11:37:33 AM »

Ebor,

Sure, which books are you referring to?
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« Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 12:03:59 PM »

Ebor,

Sure, which books are you referring to?

I'll try to not bury you under tomes, though I have a lot of them.  Smiley  How far back/what aspects of Japan might you be interested in, please?

For an overview you might try:
Japan: the Story of a Nation by Edwin O. Reischauer
The Japanese by Edwin O. Reischauer
The Chrysanthemum and the Sword: Patterns of Japanese Culture by Ruth Benedict

Christianity/Europeans and Japan:
They Came to Japan: an Anthology of European Reports on Japan 1543-1640 edited by Michael Cooper
Rodrigues the Interpreter: An Early Jesuit in Japan and the Orient by Michael Cooper, S.J. 
The Beginning of Heaven and Earth: the Sacred Book of Japan's Hidden Christians Translated by Christal Whelan (With a short history in the beginning)
Samurai William by Giles Milton  on William Adams, the English pilot on the first Dutch ship to reach Japan (which went across the Pacific)
Deus Destroyed: The Image of Christianity in Early Modern Japan by George Elison

On Buddhism in Japan:
Shapers of Japanese Buddhism edited by Yusen Kashiwahara and Koyu Sonoda

How's that for a start?  I have more and do you want to learn about the Tea Ceremony?   Grin 
Sorry, I got overly excited. 
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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

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