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Author Topic: JP II saved the RCC from from going the way of the Anglican Communion  (Read 6077 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 03, 2011, 04:23:26 PM »

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100086109/blessed-john-paul-ii-saved-the-catholic-church-from-going-the-way-of-the-anglican-communion/


Blessed John Paul II saved the Catholic Church from going the way of the Anglican Communion

I’ve been asking myself what future secular historians and sociologists of religion will make of Blessed John Paul II’s long stewardship of the Catholic Church. Let us set aside for the moment his magnificent assault on the foundations of Communism; also, the arguments over the sex abuse crisis. Volumes have already been written on these subjects. Moreover, secular scholars are unlikely to dwell on the heroic sanctity of the man, which led Pope Benedict XVI to beatify him in a ceremony attended by 1.5 million people. But what they may well say – irrespective of their point of view – is that John Paul II preserved the unity of the Catholic Church at a moment when it seemed likely to fracture...


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« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2011, 06:31:01 PM »

Well, if he did, he was God's instrument in that task.

I daresay he might have done it. I wasn't alive in 1978, but what a time! The tsunami was in full fury, and it certainly seems like the Barque of Rome would be swamped. But then came a light out of Poland.

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« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2011, 07:54:50 PM »

To give him credit for it is wrong I think, as in other cases where someone actually does keep something from happening, and they die before the pressure is released, their successor usually fails big time. Given that this hasn't happened and the pressures of modernism haven't gone away (and likely never will), I would credit him with helping to keep the Church from folding to those pressures during his life, he clearly wasn't alone.

That said there has been significant amount of modernizations in the Catholic Church during his rule. Whether these are damaging or irrelevent doesn't make much difference, he certainly gave in to the pressures at points.
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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2011, 09:17:54 PM »

I liked JPII. I thought he was an impressive man. I admired some things about him and others I did not. But why must you denigrate Anglicans to make your point? JPII had plenty of Anglican moments in his pontificate. Is the Anglican Communion having problems yes but so can be said for the RCC and the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2011, 09:41:51 PM »

I liked JPII. I thought he was an impressive man. I admired some things about him and others I did not. But why must you denigrate Anglicans to make your point? JPII had plenty of Anglican moments in his pontificate. Is the Anglican Communion having problems yes but so can be said for the RCC and the Orthodox Church.

I can't remember the last time an Orthodox poster on this forum defended Anglicans or Protestants.
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« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2011, 02:45:23 AM »

I liked JPII. I thought he was an impressive man. I admired some things about him and others I did not. But why must you denigrate Anglicans to make your point? JPII had plenty of Anglican moments in his pontificate. Is the Anglican Communion having problems yes but so can be said for the RCC and the Orthodox Church.

The Anglican Communion is in much more trouble than either the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox churches.
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« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2011, 03:22:20 AM »

I liked JPII. I thought he was an impressive man. I admired some things about him and others I did not. But why must you denigrate Anglicans to make your point? JPII had plenty of Anglican moments in his pontificate. Is the Anglican Communion having problems yes but so can be said for the RCC and the Orthodox Church.

The Anglican Communion is in much more trouble than either the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox churches.

In 1978, in many places in the Catholic Church, people expected this kind of thing (among others*) to be coming right around the corner:



But then Blessed John Paul II came out of Poland and caused the revolutionaries bitter disappointment. He stabilized what was then a chaotic situation. He couldn't do everything, and he wasn't perfect, but he stopped the boat from sinking. His legacy will grow, I think, as time passes.

*I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.
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« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2011, 03:49:28 AM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2011, 03:57:34 AM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you think I care? 100% of people sin, but does that mean the church should get rid of her teaching on sin? The argument that the Catholic Church should start allowing ABC because polls show most Catholic couples contracept makes no sense.

As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.

If the Catholic Church were to follow the rest of the Christian world in selling out on this teaching, the 1970s were the time. But it didn't happen---and I think Paul VI realized it couldn't happen.
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« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2011, 04:26:10 AM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!
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« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2011, 05:32:21 AM »

I liked JPII. I thought he was an impressive man. I admired some things about him and others I did not. But why must you denigrate Anglicans to make your point? JPII had plenty of Anglican moments in his pontificate. Is the Anglican Communion having problems yes but so can be said for the RCC and the Orthodox Church.

The Anglican Communion is in much more trouble than either the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox churches.

In 1978, in many places in the Catholic Church, people expected this kind of thing (among others*) to be coming right around the corner:



But then Blessed John Paul II came out of Poland and caused the revolutionaries bitter disappointment. He stabilized what was then a chaotic situation. He couldn't do everything, and he wasn't perfect, but he stopped the boat from sinking. His legacy will grow, I think, as time passes.

*I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.
You mean better vestments, right?
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« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2011, 05:58:55 AM »

The thing is that the Church is not limited to America.
Pope John Paul II as chair of ethics at the Catholic University of Lublin wrote a commentary to the implementation of Humanae Vitae. He noticed that in the West it was massively rejected but he upheld it in Poland. Consequently, all of the Catholics in the former Soviet Union and Central Europe follow the Polish interpretation of Humanae Vitae. With Polish immigration to the West, the true interpretation is spreading to Western Europe. In the UK, Poles have the same childbirth rate as Hindus, Bengalis or Arabs. Though the unstable economic situation and the post-Communism shock is the main hinderance to the increase of childbirth rates in Poland. Slowly that is changing.

 
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« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2011, 08:02:28 AM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Both of the bolded portions show a severe lack of understand of Catholic teaching on sin, so I hardly think you're in a position to tell us to "take ownership of [our] doctrines".
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« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2011, 10:22:29 AM »

I liked JPII. I thought he was an impressive man. I admired some things about him and others I did not. But why must you denigrate Anglicans to make your point? JPII had plenty of Anglican moments in his pontificate. Is the Anglican Communion having problems yes but so can be said for the RCC and the Orthodox Church.

The Anglican Communion is in much more trouble than either the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox churches.

In 1978, in many places in the Catholic Church, people expected this kind of thing (among others*) to be coming right around the corner:

But then Blessed John Paul II came out of Poland and caused the revolutionaries bitter disappointment. He stabilized what was then a chaotic situation. He couldn't do everything, and he wasn't perfect, but he stopped the boat from sinking. His legacy will grow, I think, as time passes.

*I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.

I like to think that the influence of the Greek Catholicism of his  maternal grandmother's family had something to do with his defense of traditionalism. God works in strange ways. In any event, I always found his deep voice with its heavily accented English comforting in the sense that it reminded me of many voices I knew as a child, the speakers of the same having passed through to eternity.
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« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2011, 11:14:46 AM »

*I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.

NFP--all the contraception, none of the guilt Wink
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« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2011, 11:59:51 AM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Both of the bolded portions show a severe lack of understand of Catholic teaching on sin, so I hardly think you're in a position to tell us to "take ownership of [our] doctrines".

It is a well known Roman Catholic ploy to pretend that the Orthodox are intellectually challenged when it comes to understanding Roman Catholic teaching. Some Catholic contributors here are past masters of this piece of jiggery-pokery.  But it simply won't wash.   I have probably spent more years in institutions of higher Catholic learning than many of the Catholics on the forum. I was led by the Spirit out of Roman Catholicism in the years after Vatican II although my path was not a rejection of either Vatican II or of pre-Vatican II Catholicism but simply a calling to something truer and deeper.   The older spirit of Catholicism prior to Vatican II is seen in my preference for "mortal sin" whereas these days some people like to use "serious sin" and modern Catholics swerve away form the teaching that the justification for the word "mortal" is that such sin removes the life of grace from the soul, something that many prefer not to believe anymore.

So I find that I am well grounded in the teaching of traditional Catholicism (by that I mean what was upheld in the 1950s) and less so in the still fluid post Vatican II teachings (or reinterpretations of previous teachings)  which have not yet been "fixed"  ~ such things as the modern understanding of "mortal sin."  Because you are currently in a transitional state with some of these doctrines I am not greatly interested in delving into them fully. Some Catholics deny that this transitional stage is occurring but your theologians speak of it.
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« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2011, 12:13:28 PM »

Dear Peter,

The wiser among us have realised long ago that there is very little an Orthodox Christian can say meaningfully about the Catholic teachings which are currently transitioning.

For example, I have watched the exploration of the Catholic teaching on original sin for many years on Catholic forums. I have seen the fierce inter-Catholic disagreement.

The doctrine is in a state of transition and trying to get a handle on it, especially for an Orthodox outsider, is impossible and it is not a topic in which I involve myself.

"Current Roman Catholic theology of original sin is undergoing a radical transition and is marked by considerable pluralism..."

"Systematic theology: Roman Catholic perspectives"
By Francis Schüssler Fiorenza, John P. Galvin

http://tinyurl.com/26vkexv
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« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2011, 12:16:29 PM »

I thought John Paul II was a charismatic and dedicated leader, but wasn't he responsible for altar girls? Huh

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« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2011, 12:22:43 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!

"Facile" or not, it *is* true, and you know it.  I really don't think he's brushing anything away, casually or not.
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« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2011, 12:39:04 PM »

I remember being shocked with JP2'S endorsement of the "Catholic Charismatic Renewal"--suddenly we see Catholics speaking gibberish and flopping around on the floor--or laughing uncontrollably, or screaming, or crying. Then came the praise festivals with the pop music.  Blech!

It is nothing more than a re-make of the Pentecostalists.  Shocked
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« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2011, 12:44:45 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!

"Facile" or not, it *is* true, and you know it.  I really don't think he's brushing anything away, casually or not.

The statement was not facile.  The intention behind its use was.
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« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2011, 12:54:34 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!

"Facile" or not, it *is* true, and you know it.  I really don't think he's brushing anything away, casually or not.

The statement was not facile.  The intention behind its use was.

From dictionary.com:
fac·ile
   /ˈfæsɪl or, especially Brit., -aɪl/ Show Spelled[fas-il or, especially Brit., -ahyl] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
moving, acting, working, proceeding, etc., with ease, sometimes with superficiality: facile fingers; a facile mind.
2.
easily done, performed, used, etc.: a facile victory; a facile method.
3.
easy or unconstrained, as manners or persons.


Please explain to this poor ignorant sinner (me) how you know his intention was facile.  You've lost me, I'm afraid.
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« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2011, 01:02:29 PM »

I remember being shocked with JP2'S endorsement of the "Catholic Charismatic Renewal"--suddenly we see Catholics speaking gibberish and flopping around on the floor--or laughing uncontrollably, or screaming, or crying. Then came the praise festivals with the pop music.  Blech!

It is nothing more than a re-make of the Pentecostalists.  Shocked
I had forgotten about that. Sad Most RCs I know in real life aren't appalled by that. I do remember a Latin professor I had who spoke up against it when someone brought it up. He also wasn't a fan of World Youth Day either. I can't really disagree. I think there were good motives and intentions behind it, but it just seemed like something I had abandoned (or thought I had) as a Protestant. I do have tremendous respect for Benedict, though. He seems more to be the one to steer Rome away from the path our Anglican friends have taken, but that's from my lowly perspective. Smiley

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« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2011, 01:17:15 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!

"Facile" or not, it *is* true, and you know it.  I really don't think he's brushing anything away, casually or not.

The statement was not facile.  The intention behind its use was.

From dictionary.com:
fac·ile
   /ˈfæsɪl or, especially Brit., -aɪl/ Show Spelled[fas-il or, especially Brit., -ahyl] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
moving, acting, working, proceeding, etc., with ease, sometimes with superficiality: facile fingers; a facile mind.
2.
easily done, performed, used, etc.: a facile victory; a facile method.
3.
easy or unconstrained, as manners or persons.


Please explain to this poor ignorant sinner (me) how you know his intention was facile.  You've lost me, I'm afraid.

I do not know if lubeltri's intention was facile.  I apologise for giving that impression to any poor ignorant sinners. 
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« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2011, 01:27:41 PM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.
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« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2011, 01:34:11 PM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

You are correct. Roman Catholicism 101, and something unchanged.  CCC 1857.
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« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2011, 01:35:37 PM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you deny that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Note that it says that all three conditions much by met for a sin to be mortal. Also note that I'm not asking whether you agree or disagree with it, just whether it is the teaching of my church.
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« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2011, 01:37:11 PM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

And then there's the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  We also don't know how many availed themselves of that after using artificial contraception with full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong.

We're always on dangerous ground when we pronounce who is or isn't going to hell.
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« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2011, 01:42:03 PM »

It is a well known Roman Catholic ploy to pretend that the Orthodox are intellectually challenged when it comes to understanding Roman Catholic teaching. Some Catholic contributors here are past masters of this piece of jiggery-pokery.

I would be only too happy if the moderators of this forum would crack-down on such ploys.
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« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2011, 01:46:26 PM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you deny that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Note that it says that all three conditions much by met for a sin to be mortal. Also note that I'm not asking whether you agree or disagree with it, just whether it is the teaching of my church.

Are you really trying to tell me that the millions of Catholics who use contraception in the United States are unaware that the CCC teaches that it is a mortal sin to use artificial contraceptives?

This is like someone saying in 2011, "But, I didn't know smoking causes cancer!"
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« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2011, 01:47:21 PM »

It is a well known Roman Catholic ploy to pretend that the Orthodox are intellectually challenged when it comes to understanding Roman Catholic teaching. Some Catholic contributors here are past masters of this piece of jiggery-pokery.

I would be only too happy if the moderators of this forum would crack-down on such ploys.

Perhaps if you used the "Report to moderator" function that is in each and every post, we might be able to assist you.
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« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2011, 01:54:46 PM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you deny that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Note that it says that all three conditions much by met for a sin to be mortal. Also note that I'm not asking whether you agree or disagree with it, just whether it is the teaching of my church.

This was the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church in the 1950s and it is the teaching in the 2010s.

It is not however the universal teaching of the majority of the Catholic Church since there are 22 Eastern Catholic Churches which adhere to an Orthodox teaching which does not admit some aspects of the Roman Catholic understanding of mortal sin.  While using the terminology some important premises of Eastern Catholic theology are at odds with Roman Catholicism.

I have been told that these differences have a mention in the upcoming Catechism for the Eastern Catholic Churches (to be published this year, finally?).  It will be most interesting to see how they handle the differing theology.

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« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2011, 02:01:06 PM »

You mean better vestments, right?

 laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2011, 02:05:33 PM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you deny that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Note that it says that all three conditions much by met for a sin to be mortal. Also note that I'm not asking whether you agree or disagree with it, just whether it is the teaching of my church.

Are you really trying to tell me that the millions of Catholics who use contraception in the United States are unaware that the CCC teaches that it is a mortal sin to use artificial contraceptives?

This is like someone saying in 2011, "But, I didn't know smoking causes cancer!"

Good point.
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« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2011, 02:07:31 PM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you deny that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Note that it says that all three conditions much by met for a sin to be mortal. Also note that I'm not asking whether you agree or disagree with it, just whether it is the teaching of my church.

Are you really trying to tell me that the millions of Catholics who use contraception in the United States are unaware that the CCC teaches that it is a mortal sin to use artificial contraceptives?

This is like someone saying in 2011, "But, I didn't know smoking causes cancer!"

You might be amazed at how many people are ignorant about matters of their faith, whether Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, or whatever.  The point is that *we* cannot know, nor should we even pretend to, who will be saved, who will not be saved, and under what conditions or circumstances.  We also cannot know who knows what or how much about their faith and should not be so quick to judge.

(Btw, in order for the sentence "smoking causes cancer" to be true, it would have to cause cancer in everyone who has smoked or currently is a smoker.  And that just ain't the case.  And yes, I know...I'm a nit-picker  Grin)
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« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2011, 02:09:44 PM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

And then there's the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  We also don't know how many availed themselves of that after using artificial contraception with full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong.

We're always on dangerous ground when we pronounce who is or isn't going to hell.

The Roman Catholic teaching used to be (is it still?) that mortal sin removes sanctifying grace from the soul.  It is dead.   The consequence of that is that it must go to hell. 

There are then two ways to avoid hell:

1.  Confession and sacramental absolution from a priest
2.  An act of perfect contrition.


Is this still the teaching?
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« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2011, 02:19:40 PM »


You might be amazed at how many people are ignorant about matters of their faith,


One thing that Catholics do not know to any great extent is that the internal magisterium (the conscience) allows a husband or wife to make use of mortally sinful means of contraception if the other spouse insists that they be used.

If Catholic wives knew this, those devout wives who are tormented by the husband's insistence that he wear a condom or that she take the Pill, there would be a lot fewer miserable and conflicted Catholic women.    If he insists she commits no sin by acquiescing.  And vice versa, if she insists, he commits no sin by acquiescing.

How many Catholics know this?  It seems not unimportant.
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« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2011, 02:20:58 PM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

And then there's the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  We also don't know how many availed themselves of that after using artificial contraception with full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong.

We're always on dangerous ground when we pronounce who is or isn't going to hell.

The Roman Catholic teaching used to be (is it still?) that mortal sin removes sanctifying grace from the soul.  It is dead.   The consequence of that is that it must go to hell. 

There are then two ways to avoid hell:

1.  Confession and sacramental absolution from a priest
2.  An act of perfect contrition.


Is this still the teaching?

Without referring to the Catechism, I would say--I think so, but I do not know.  I am not, after all, Roman Catholic.  What's your point?
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« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2011, 02:35:53 PM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

And then there's the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  We also don't know how many availed themselves of that after using artificial contraception with full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong.

We're always on dangerous ground when we pronounce who is or isn't going to hell.

The Roman Catholic teaching used to be (is it still?) that mortal sin removes sanctifying grace from the soul.  It is dead.   The consequence of that is that it must go to hell. 

There are then two ways to avoid hell:

1.  Confession and sacramental absolution from a priest
2.  An act of perfect contrition.


Is this still the teaching?

Without referring to the Catechism, I would say--I think so, but I do not know.  I am not, after all, Roman Catholic.  What's your point?

I suppose the points are two:

1.  If a Catholic does not know it is a sin, mortal or venial, to use contraception, then no sin is committed.

2.  If a Catholic understands that contraception is a mortal sin, then he or she is going to hell.

There are then two ways to avoid going to hell, given in my earlier message.
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« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2011, 02:40:29 PM »

I'm not sure what Damian Thompson is thinking here but there was never really any chance that the Catholics would go down the Anglican road. Their besetting sins simply aren't our besetting sins.
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« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2011, 02:53:19 PM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

And then there's the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  We also don't know how many availed themselves of that after using artificial contraception with full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong.

We're always on dangerous ground when we pronounce who is or isn't going to hell.

The Roman Catholic teaching used to be (is it still?) that mortal sin removes sanctifying grace from the soul.  It is dead.   The consequence of that is that it must go to hell. 

There are then two ways to avoid hell:

1.  Confession and sacramental absolution from a priest
2.  An act of perfect contrition.


Is this still the teaching?

Without referring to the Catechism, I would say--I think so, but I do not know.  I am not, after all, Roman Catholic.  What's your point?

I suppose the points are two:

1.  If a Catholic does not know it is a sin, mortal or venial, to use contraception, then no sin is committed.

2.  If a Catholic understands that contraception is a mortal sin, then he or she is going to hell.

There are then two ways to avoid going to hell, given in my earlier message.

True enough, I suppose.  With regard to point 2, there is always, at least up until the point of bodily death, the possibility of repentance and reconciliation.  So he or she is not categorically and inevitably going to hell.  Besides, neither you nor I know who amongst Catholics falls into category 1 or category 2, and if in category 2, if or when they will repent.  So, I still hold that to say we know who will or won't be "going to hell" puts us on very dangerous, judgmental ground.
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« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2011, 03:10:50 PM »

The Blessed John Paul II (if this is the correct manner to refer to him now) no doubt reinvigorated the office of the papacy.  Under Pope Paul VI, of blessed memory, he was largely marginalized, by the youth, rebellious priests, bishops too. His pronouncements were always openly questioned by an aggressive liberal opposition. One of John Paul II's early initiatives was to crush the politically active clergy of South America, Jesuits who promoted "liberation theology."  He forced the resignation of a liberal priest who was a U.S. Congressman from the Boston area, Rob't. Drinan, or something thing like that.   John Paul II brought back much of the traditionalism of the papal office, his vestments included; he returned the allowability of including traditional Latin in their mass.  The bishops he appointed during his long tenure assisted him in this regard, and enabled the election of a comparatively conservative successor, a long term plan of his.
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« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2011, 03:22:35 PM »

For whatever it is worth, I always loved JP2, even before entering the Church.  I believe the man to be a saint, in spite of any imperfections he may have had as a man, an administrator, and a pope. 
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« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2011, 03:28:03 PM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you deny that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Note that it says that all three conditions much by met for a sin to be mortal. Also note that I'm not asking whether you agree or disagree with it, just whether it is the teaching of my church.

Are you really trying to tell me that the millions of Catholics who use contraception in the United States are unaware that the CCC teaches that it is a mortal sin to use artificial contraceptives?

Not at all. Fr. Ambrose said that "In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church", thus implying that all of those 97% who use ABC are committing mortal sin, whereas you seem to have gotten the idea that I'm saying that none of them are committing mortal sin. I certainly don't recall saying that, nor do I recall saying that they are "unaware that the CCC teaches that it is a mortal sin to use artificial contraceptives".

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« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2011, 03:34:03 PM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you deny that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Note that it says that all three conditions much by met for a sin to be mortal. Also note that I'm not asking whether you agree or disagree with it, just whether it is the teaching of my church.

Are you really trying to tell me that the millions of Catholics who use contraception in the United States are unaware that the CCC teaches that it is a mortal sin to use artificial contraceptives?

This is like someone saying in 2011, "But, I didn't know smoking causes cancer!"

You might be amazed at how many people are ignorant about matters of their faith, whether Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, or whatever.  The point is that *we* cannot know, nor should we even pretend to, who will be saved, who will not be saved, and under what conditions or circumstances.  We also cannot know who knows what or how much about their faith and should not be so quick to judge.

Bull.  The Roman Catholic Church's stance on contraception is the butt of one of the most well known jokes in this country, if not the world.  While I will concede there may be some who are ignorant of the matter, the vast majority of baptised Catholics who use contraception know they are doing it against the explicit teaching of their church.  You are either being obtuse, naive, or downright deceitful if you say otherwise.

Quote
(Btw, in order for the sentence "smoking causes cancer" to be true, it would have to cause cancer in everyone who has smoked or currently is a smoker.  And that just ain't the case.  And yes, I know...I'm a nit-picker  Grin)

Fine, Mr. Pedant.  I amend my comment to read, "Smoking can cause cancer." 
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