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Author Topic: JP II saved the RCC from from going the way of the Anglican Communion  (Read 6100 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 03, 2011, 04:23:26 PM »

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100086109/blessed-john-paul-ii-saved-the-catholic-church-from-going-the-way-of-the-anglican-communion/


Blessed John Paul II saved the Catholic Church from going the way of the Anglican Communion

I’ve been asking myself what future secular historians and sociologists of religion will make of Blessed John Paul II’s long stewardship of the Catholic Church. Let us set aside for the moment his magnificent assault on the foundations of Communism; also, the arguments over the sex abuse crisis. Volumes have already been written on these subjects. Moreover, secular scholars are unlikely to dwell on the heroic sanctity of the man, which led Pope Benedict XVI to beatify him in a ceremony attended by 1.5 million people. But what they may well say – irrespective of their point of view – is that John Paul II preserved the unity of the Catholic Church at a moment when it seemed likely to fracture...


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« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2011, 06:31:01 PM »

Well, if he did, he was God's instrument in that task.

I daresay he might have done it. I wasn't alive in 1978, but what a time! The tsunami was in full fury, and it certainly seems like the Barque of Rome would be swamped. But then came a light out of Poland.

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« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2011, 07:54:50 PM »

To give him credit for it is wrong I think, as in other cases where someone actually does keep something from happening, and they die before the pressure is released, their successor usually fails big time. Given that this hasn't happened and the pressures of modernism haven't gone away (and likely never will), I would credit him with helping to keep the Church from folding to those pressures during his life, he clearly wasn't alone.

That said there has been significant amount of modernizations in the Catholic Church during his rule. Whether these are damaging or irrelevent doesn't make much difference, he certainly gave in to the pressures at points.
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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2011, 09:17:54 PM »

I liked JPII. I thought he was an impressive man. I admired some things about him and others I did not. But why must you denigrate Anglicans to make your point? JPII had plenty of Anglican moments in his pontificate. Is the Anglican Communion having problems yes but so can be said for the RCC and the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2011, 09:41:51 PM »

I liked JPII. I thought he was an impressive man. I admired some things about him and others I did not. But why must you denigrate Anglicans to make your point? JPII had plenty of Anglican moments in his pontificate. Is the Anglican Communion having problems yes but so can be said for the RCC and the Orthodox Church.

I can't remember the last time an Orthodox poster on this forum defended Anglicans or Protestants.
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« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2011, 02:45:23 AM »

I liked JPII. I thought he was an impressive man. I admired some things about him and others I did not. But why must you denigrate Anglicans to make your point? JPII had plenty of Anglican moments in his pontificate. Is the Anglican Communion having problems yes but so can be said for the RCC and the Orthodox Church.

The Anglican Communion is in much more trouble than either the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox churches.
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« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2011, 03:22:20 AM »

I liked JPII. I thought he was an impressive man. I admired some things about him and others I did not. But why must you denigrate Anglicans to make your point? JPII had plenty of Anglican moments in his pontificate. Is the Anglican Communion having problems yes but so can be said for the RCC and the Orthodox Church.

The Anglican Communion is in much more trouble than either the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox churches.

In 1978, in many places in the Catholic Church, people expected this kind of thing (among others*) to be coming right around the corner:



But then Blessed John Paul II came out of Poland and caused the revolutionaries bitter disappointment. He stabilized what was then a chaotic situation. He couldn't do everything, and he wasn't perfect, but he stopped the boat from sinking. His legacy will grow, I think, as time passes.

*I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.
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« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2011, 03:49:28 AM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2011, 03:57:34 AM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you think I care? 100% of people sin, but does that mean the church should get rid of her teaching on sin? The argument that the Catholic Church should start allowing ABC because polls show most Catholic couples contracept makes no sense.

As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.

If the Catholic Church were to follow the rest of the Christian world in selling out on this teaching, the 1970s were the time. But it didn't happen---and I think Paul VI realized it couldn't happen.
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« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2011, 04:26:10 AM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!
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« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2011, 05:32:21 AM »

I liked JPII. I thought he was an impressive man. I admired some things about him and others I did not. But why must you denigrate Anglicans to make your point? JPII had plenty of Anglican moments in his pontificate. Is the Anglican Communion having problems yes but so can be said for the RCC and the Orthodox Church.

The Anglican Communion is in much more trouble than either the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox churches.

In 1978, in many places in the Catholic Church, people expected this kind of thing (among others*) to be coming right around the corner:



But then Blessed John Paul II came out of Poland and caused the revolutionaries bitter disappointment. He stabilized what was then a chaotic situation. He couldn't do everything, and he wasn't perfect, but he stopped the boat from sinking. His legacy will grow, I think, as time passes.

*I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.
You mean better vestments, right?
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« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2011, 05:58:55 AM »

The thing is that the Church is not limited to America.
Pope John Paul II as chair of ethics at the Catholic University of Lublin wrote a commentary to the implementation of Humanae Vitae. He noticed that in the West it was massively rejected but he upheld it in Poland. Consequently, all of the Catholics in the former Soviet Union and Central Europe follow the Polish interpretation of Humanae Vitae. With Polish immigration to the West, the true interpretation is spreading to Western Europe. In the UK, Poles have the same childbirth rate as Hindus, Bengalis or Arabs. Though the unstable economic situation and the post-Communism shock is the main hinderance to the increase of childbirth rates in Poland. Slowly that is changing.

 
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« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2011, 08:02:28 AM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Both of the bolded portions show a severe lack of understand of Catholic teaching on sin, so I hardly think you're in a position to tell us to "take ownership of [our] doctrines".
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« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2011, 10:22:29 AM »

I liked JPII. I thought he was an impressive man. I admired some things about him and others I did not. But why must you denigrate Anglicans to make your point? JPII had plenty of Anglican moments in his pontificate. Is the Anglican Communion having problems yes but so can be said for the RCC and the Orthodox Church.

The Anglican Communion is in much more trouble than either the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox churches.

In 1978, in many places in the Catholic Church, people expected this kind of thing (among others*) to be coming right around the corner:

But then Blessed John Paul II came out of Poland and caused the revolutionaries bitter disappointment. He stabilized what was then a chaotic situation. He couldn't do everything, and he wasn't perfect, but he stopped the boat from sinking. His legacy will grow, I think, as time passes.

*I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.

I like to think that the influence of the Greek Catholicism of his  maternal grandmother's family had something to do with his defense of traditionalism. God works in strange ways. In any event, I always found his deep voice with its heavily accented English comforting in the sense that it reminded me of many voices I knew as a child, the speakers of the same having passed through to eternity.
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« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2011, 11:14:46 AM »

*I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.

NFP--all the contraception, none of the guilt Wink
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« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2011, 11:59:51 AM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Both of the bolded portions show a severe lack of understand of Catholic teaching on sin, so I hardly think you're in a position to tell us to "take ownership of [our] doctrines".

It is a well known Roman Catholic ploy to pretend that the Orthodox are intellectually challenged when it comes to understanding Roman Catholic teaching. Some Catholic contributors here are past masters of this piece of jiggery-pokery.  But it simply won't wash.   I have probably spent more years in institutions of higher Catholic learning than many of the Catholics on the forum. I was led by the Spirit out of Roman Catholicism in the years after Vatican II although my path was not a rejection of either Vatican II or of pre-Vatican II Catholicism but simply a calling to something truer and deeper.   The older spirit of Catholicism prior to Vatican II is seen in my preference for "mortal sin" whereas these days some people like to use "serious sin" and modern Catholics swerve away form the teaching that the justification for the word "mortal" is that such sin removes the life of grace from the soul, something that many prefer not to believe anymore.

So I find that I am well grounded in the teaching of traditional Catholicism (by that I mean what was upheld in the 1950s) and less so in the still fluid post Vatican II teachings (or reinterpretations of previous teachings)  which have not yet been "fixed"  ~ such things as the modern understanding of "mortal sin."  Because you are currently in a transitional state with some of these doctrines I am not greatly interested in delving into them fully. Some Catholics deny that this transitional stage is occurring but your theologians speak of it.
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« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2011, 12:13:28 PM »

Dear Peter,

The wiser among us have realised long ago that there is very little an Orthodox Christian can say meaningfully about the Catholic teachings which are currently transitioning.

For example, I have watched the exploration of the Catholic teaching on original sin for many years on Catholic forums. I have seen the fierce inter-Catholic disagreement.

The doctrine is in a state of transition and trying to get a handle on it, especially for an Orthodox outsider, is impossible and it is not a topic in which I involve myself.

"Current Roman Catholic theology of original sin is undergoing a radical transition and is marked by considerable pluralism..."

"Systematic theology: Roman Catholic perspectives"
By Francis Schüssler Fiorenza, John P. Galvin

http://tinyurl.com/26vkexv
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« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2011, 12:16:29 PM »

I thought John Paul II was a charismatic and dedicated leader, but wasn't he responsible for altar girls? Huh

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« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2011, 12:22:43 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!

"Facile" or not, it *is* true, and you know it.  I really don't think he's brushing anything away, casually or not.
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« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2011, 12:39:04 PM »

I remember being shocked with JP2'S endorsement of the "Catholic Charismatic Renewal"--suddenly we see Catholics speaking gibberish and flopping around on the floor--or laughing uncontrollably, or screaming, or crying. Then came the praise festivals with the pop music.  Blech!

It is nothing more than a re-make of the Pentecostalists.  Shocked
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« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2011, 12:44:45 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!

"Facile" or not, it *is* true, and you know it.  I really don't think he's brushing anything away, casually or not.

The statement was not facile.  The intention behind its use was.
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« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2011, 12:54:34 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!

"Facile" or not, it *is* true, and you know it.  I really don't think he's brushing anything away, casually or not.

The statement was not facile.  The intention behind its use was.

From dictionary.com:
fac·ile
   /ˈfæsɪl or, especially Brit., -aɪl/ Show Spelled[fas-il or, especially Brit., -ahyl] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
moving, acting, working, proceeding, etc., with ease, sometimes with superficiality: facile fingers; a facile mind.
2.
easily done, performed, used, etc.: a facile victory; a facile method.
3.
easy or unconstrained, as manners or persons.


Please explain to this poor ignorant sinner (me) how you know his intention was facile.  You've lost me, I'm afraid.
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« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2011, 01:02:29 PM »

I remember being shocked with JP2'S endorsement of the "Catholic Charismatic Renewal"--suddenly we see Catholics speaking gibberish and flopping around on the floor--or laughing uncontrollably, or screaming, or crying. Then came the praise festivals with the pop music.  Blech!

It is nothing more than a re-make of the Pentecostalists.  Shocked
I had forgotten about that. Sad Most RCs I know in real life aren't appalled by that. I do remember a Latin professor I had who spoke up against it when someone brought it up. He also wasn't a fan of World Youth Day either. I can't really disagree. I think there were good motives and intentions behind it, but it just seemed like something I had abandoned (or thought I had) as a Protestant. I do have tremendous respect for Benedict, though. He seems more to be the one to steer Rome away from the path our Anglican friends have taken, but that's from my lowly perspective. Smiley

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« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2011, 01:17:15 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!

"Facile" or not, it *is* true, and you know it.  I really don't think he's brushing anything away, casually or not.

The statement was not facile.  The intention behind its use was.

From dictionary.com:
fac·ile
   /ˈfæsɪl or, especially Brit., -aɪl/ Show Spelled[fas-il or, especially Brit., -ahyl] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
moving, acting, working, proceeding, etc., with ease, sometimes with superficiality: facile fingers; a facile mind.
2.
easily done, performed, used, etc.: a facile victory; a facile method.
3.
easy or unconstrained, as manners or persons.


Please explain to this poor ignorant sinner (me) how you know his intention was facile.  You've lost me, I'm afraid.

I do not know if lubeltri's intention was facile.  I apologise for giving that impression to any poor ignorant sinners. 
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« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2011, 01:27:41 PM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.
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« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2011, 01:34:11 PM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

You are correct. Roman Catholicism 101, and something unchanged.  CCC 1857.
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« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2011, 01:35:37 PM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you deny that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Note that it says that all three conditions much by met for a sin to be mortal. Also note that I'm not asking whether you agree or disagree with it, just whether it is the teaching of my church.
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« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2011, 01:37:11 PM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

And then there's the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  We also don't know how many availed themselves of that after using artificial contraception with full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong.

We're always on dangerous ground when we pronounce who is or isn't going to hell.
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« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2011, 01:42:03 PM »

It is a well known Roman Catholic ploy to pretend that the Orthodox are intellectually challenged when it comes to understanding Roman Catholic teaching. Some Catholic contributors here are past masters of this piece of jiggery-pokery.

I would be only too happy if the moderators of this forum would crack-down on such ploys.
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« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2011, 01:46:26 PM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you deny that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Note that it says that all three conditions much by met for a sin to be mortal. Also note that I'm not asking whether you agree or disagree with it, just whether it is the teaching of my church.

Are you really trying to tell me that the millions of Catholics who use contraception in the United States are unaware that the CCC teaches that it is a mortal sin to use artificial contraceptives?

This is like someone saying in 2011, "But, I didn't know smoking causes cancer!"
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« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2011, 01:47:21 PM »

It is a well known Roman Catholic ploy to pretend that the Orthodox are intellectually challenged when it comes to understanding Roman Catholic teaching. Some Catholic contributors here are past masters of this piece of jiggery-pokery.

I would be only too happy if the moderators of this forum would crack-down on such ploys.

Perhaps if you used the "Report to moderator" function that is in each and every post, we might be able to assist you.
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« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2011, 01:54:46 PM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you deny that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Note that it says that all three conditions much by met for a sin to be mortal. Also note that I'm not asking whether you agree or disagree with it, just whether it is the teaching of my church.

This was the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church in the 1950s and it is the teaching in the 2010s.

It is not however the universal teaching of the majority of the Catholic Church since there are 22 Eastern Catholic Churches which adhere to an Orthodox teaching which does not admit some aspects of the Roman Catholic understanding of mortal sin.  While using the terminology some important premises of Eastern Catholic theology are at odds with Roman Catholicism.

I have been told that these differences have a mention in the upcoming Catechism for the Eastern Catholic Churches (to be published this year, finally?).  It will be most interesting to see how they handle the differing theology.

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« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2011, 02:01:06 PM »

You mean better vestments, right?

 laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2011, 02:05:33 PM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you deny that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Note that it says that all three conditions much by met for a sin to be mortal. Also note that I'm not asking whether you agree or disagree with it, just whether it is the teaching of my church.

Are you really trying to tell me that the millions of Catholics who use contraception in the United States are unaware that the CCC teaches that it is a mortal sin to use artificial contraceptives?

This is like someone saying in 2011, "But, I didn't know smoking causes cancer!"

Good point.
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« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2011, 02:07:31 PM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you deny that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Note that it says that all three conditions much by met for a sin to be mortal. Also note that I'm not asking whether you agree or disagree with it, just whether it is the teaching of my church.

Are you really trying to tell me that the millions of Catholics who use contraception in the United States are unaware that the CCC teaches that it is a mortal sin to use artificial contraceptives?

This is like someone saying in 2011, "But, I didn't know smoking causes cancer!"

You might be amazed at how many people are ignorant about matters of their faith, whether Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, or whatever.  The point is that *we* cannot know, nor should we even pretend to, who will be saved, who will not be saved, and under what conditions or circumstances.  We also cannot know who knows what or how much about their faith and should not be so quick to judge.

(Btw, in order for the sentence "smoking causes cancer" to be true, it would have to cause cancer in everyone who has smoked or currently is a smoker.  And that just ain't the case.  And yes, I know...I'm a nit-picker  Grin)
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« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2011, 02:09:44 PM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

And then there's the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  We also don't know how many availed themselves of that after using artificial contraception with full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong.

We're always on dangerous ground when we pronounce who is or isn't going to hell.

The Roman Catholic teaching used to be (is it still?) that mortal sin removes sanctifying grace from the soul.  It is dead.   The consequence of that is that it must go to hell. 

There are then two ways to avoid hell:

1.  Confession and sacramental absolution from a priest
2.  An act of perfect contrition.


Is this still the teaching?
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« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2011, 02:19:40 PM »


You might be amazed at how many people are ignorant about matters of their faith,


One thing that Catholics do not know to any great extent is that the internal magisterium (the conscience) allows a husband or wife to make use of mortally sinful means of contraception if the other spouse insists that they be used.

If Catholic wives knew this, those devout wives who are tormented by the husband's insistence that he wear a condom or that she take the Pill, there would be a lot fewer miserable and conflicted Catholic women.    If he insists she commits no sin by acquiescing.  And vice versa, if she insists, he commits no sin by acquiescing.

How many Catholics know this?  It seems not unimportant.
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« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2011, 02:20:58 PM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

And then there's the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  We also don't know how many availed themselves of that after using artificial contraception with full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong.

We're always on dangerous ground when we pronounce who is or isn't going to hell.

The Roman Catholic teaching used to be (is it still?) that mortal sin removes sanctifying grace from the soul.  It is dead.   The consequence of that is that it must go to hell. 

There are then two ways to avoid hell:

1.  Confession and sacramental absolution from a priest
2.  An act of perfect contrition.


Is this still the teaching?

Without referring to the Catechism, I would say--I think so, but I do not know.  I am not, after all, Roman Catholic.  What's your point?
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« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2011, 02:35:53 PM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

And then there's the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  We also don't know how many availed themselves of that after using artificial contraception with full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong.

We're always on dangerous ground when we pronounce who is or isn't going to hell.

The Roman Catholic teaching used to be (is it still?) that mortal sin removes sanctifying grace from the soul.  It is dead.   The consequence of that is that it must go to hell. 

There are then two ways to avoid hell:

1.  Confession and sacramental absolution from a priest
2.  An act of perfect contrition.


Is this still the teaching?

Without referring to the Catechism, I would say--I think so, but I do not know.  I am not, after all, Roman Catholic.  What's your point?

I suppose the points are two:

1.  If a Catholic does not know it is a sin, mortal or venial, to use contraception, then no sin is committed.

2.  If a Catholic understands that contraception is a mortal sin, then he or she is going to hell.

There are then two ways to avoid going to hell, given in my earlier message.
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« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2011, 02:40:29 PM »

I'm not sure what Damian Thompson is thinking here but there was never really any chance that the Catholics would go down the Anglican road. Their besetting sins simply aren't our besetting sins.
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« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2011, 02:53:19 PM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

And then there's the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  We also don't know how many availed themselves of that after using artificial contraception with full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong.

We're always on dangerous ground when we pronounce who is or isn't going to hell.

The Roman Catholic teaching used to be (is it still?) that mortal sin removes sanctifying grace from the soul.  It is dead.   The consequence of that is that it must go to hell. 

There are then two ways to avoid hell:

1.  Confession and sacramental absolution from a priest
2.  An act of perfect contrition.


Is this still the teaching?

Without referring to the Catechism, I would say--I think so, but I do not know.  I am not, after all, Roman Catholic.  What's your point?

I suppose the points are two:

1.  If a Catholic does not know it is a sin, mortal or venial, to use contraception, then no sin is committed.

2.  If a Catholic understands that contraception is a mortal sin, then he or she is going to hell.

There are then two ways to avoid going to hell, given in my earlier message.

True enough, I suppose.  With regard to point 2, there is always, at least up until the point of bodily death, the possibility of repentance and reconciliation.  So he or she is not categorically and inevitably going to hell.  Besides, neither you nor I know who amongst Catholics falls into category 1 or category 2, and if in category 2, if or when they will repent.  So, I still hold that to say we know who will or won't be "going to hell" puts us on very dangerous, judgmental ground.
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« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2011, 03:10:50 PM »

The Blessed John Paul II (if this is the correct manner to refer to him now) no doubt reinvigorated the office of the papacy.  Under Pope Paul VI, of blessed memory, he was largely marginalized, by the youth, rebellious priests, bishops too. His pronouncements were always openly questioned by an aggressive liberal opposition. One of John Paul II's early initiatives was to crush the politically active clergy of South America, Jesuits who promoted "liberation theology."  He forced the resignation of a liberal priest who was a U.S. Congressman from the Boston area, Rob't. Drinan, or something thing like that.   John Paul II brought back much of the traditionalism of the papal office, his vestments included; he returned the allowability of including traditional Latin in their mass.  The bishops he appointed during his long tenure assisted him in this regard, and enabled the election of a comparatively conservative successor, a long term plan of his.
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« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2011, 03:22:35 PM »

For whatever it is worth, I always loved JP2, even before entering the Church.  I believe the man to be a saint, in spite of any imperfections he may have had as a man, an administrator, and a pope. 
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« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2011, 03:28:03 PM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you deny that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Note that it says that all three conditions much by met for a sin to be mortal. Also note that I'm not asking whether you agree or disagree with it, just whether it is the teaching of my church.

Are you really trying to tell me that the millions of Catholics who use contraception in the United States are unaware that the CCC teaches that it is a mortal sin to use artificial contraceptives?

Not at all. Fr. Ambrose said that "In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church", thus implying that all of those 97% who use ABC are committing mortal sin, whereas you seem to have gotten the idea that I'm saying that none of them are committing mortal sin. I certainly don't recall saying that, nor do I recall saying that they are "unaware that the CCC teaches that it is a mortal sin to use artificial contraceptives".

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« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2011, 03:34:03 PM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you deny that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Note that it says that all three conditions much by met for a sin to be mortal. Also note that I'm not asking whether you agree or disagree with it, just whether it is the teaching of my church.

Are you really trying to tell me that the millions of Catholics who use contraception in the United States are unaware that the CCC teaches that it is a mortal sin to use artificial contraceptives?

This is like someone saying in 2011, "But, I didn't know smoking causes cancer!"

You might be amazed at how many people are ignorant about matters of their faith, whether Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, or whatever.  The point is that *we* cannot know, nor should we even pretend to, who will be saved, who will not be saved, and under what conditions or circumstances.  We also cannot know who knows what or how much about their faith and should not be so quick to judge.

Bull.  The Roman Catholic Church's stance on contraception is the butt of one of the most well known jokes in this country, if not the world.  While I will concede there may be some who are ignorant of the matter, the vast majority of baptised Catholics who use contraception know they are doing it against the explicit teaching of their church.  You are either being obtuse, naive, or downright deceitful if you say otherwise.

Quote
(Btw, in order for the sentence "smoking causes cancer" to be true, it would have to cause cancer in everyone who has smoked or currently is a smoker.  And that just ain't the case.  And yes, I know...I'm a nit-picker  Grin)

Fine, Mr. Pedant.  I amend my comment to read, "Smoking can cause cancer." 
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« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2011, 03:37:38 PM »

Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

Do you deny that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

Note that it says that all three conditions much by met for a sin to be mortal. Also note that I'm not asking whether you agree or disagree with it, just whether it is the teaching of my church.

Are you really trying to tell me that the millions of Catholics who use contraception in the United States are unaware that the CCC teaches that it is a mortal sin to use artificial contraceptives?

This is like someone saying in 2011, "But, I didn't know smoking causes cancer!"
Not all of them, but I would not be at all surprised if a considerable chunk of them did not know. Of course there are Catholics who are well versed in the CCC and Church teaching in general, but then there are also many Catholics who primarily look to their pastor when it comes to doctrinal matters. That is where people are probably getting into trouble as far as being ignorant of Church teaching when it comes to contraception. Not only are there many priests who just don't talk about unpopular subjects like abortion, artificial contraception, etc., but there are even priests that tell couples it is okay to use artificial methods. Can all those people who either are unfamiliar with the CCC and Humanae Vitae or have been explicitly told it is okay to use artificial contraception be held as accountable as those who are fully aware of the teaching but then decide to ignore it?
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« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2011, 03:46:03 PM »

Bull. 

Actually, I believe Humanae Vitae was an Encyclical Letter.

Quote
(Btw, in order for the sentence "smoking causes cancer" to be true, it would have to cause cancer in everyone who has smoked or currently is a smoker.  And that just ain't the case.  And yes, I know...I'm a nit-picker  Grin)

Fine, Mr. Pedant.  I amend my comment to read, "Smoking can cause cancer." 

Your original statement was perfectly correct. Saying "smoking causes cancer" isn't the same as saying "smoking always causes cancer".
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« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2011, 03:50:13 PM »

1.  If a Catholic does not know it is a sin, mortal or venial, to use contraception, then no sin is committed.

This is basically what 4 (I think) different posters have been trying to tell you. (I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I never meant for this to turn into such a big discussion.) So then the question is, how can you claim that "In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church."?

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« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2011, 03:59:28 PM »

Bull. 

Actually, I believe Humanae Vitae was an Encyclical Letter.

Quote
(Btw, in order for the sentence "smoking causes cancer" to be true, it would have to cause cancer in everyone who has smoked or currently is a smoker.  And that just ain't the case.  And yes, I know...I'm a nit-picker  Grin)

Fine, Mr. Pedant.  I amend my comment to read, "Smoking can cause cancer." 

Your original statement was perfectly correct. Saying "smoking causes cancer" isn't the same as saying "smoking always causes cancer".

Oh, thank God!!! I'm not the *only* pedant here  Grin Grin Grin.  I'm thinking of starting a new 12-step group--Pedants Anonymous  Wink.

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« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2011, 05:05:37 PM »

I don't see It.....That John Paul the second Saved The Catholic Church From Anything, I Know Him More For  His Ecumenism, Bowing to Altypes Of Spiritual Leaders ,Pagans and Some Really Strange Groups, The Message he seems be sending to catholics and Orthodox was, Your All Right I'm all right ,In His Travel's Around The world And they Could be saved Without Christ......And didn't some of the Catholics Groups Incorporate some of the Pagan, Non  Catholic Practices into there Own Religious Practices.......

I Can't And won't Accept Him as Blessed or a Future Saint......But as a Sower of Confusion ........ police
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« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2011, 05:08:36 PM »

I don't see It.....That John Paul the second Saved The Catholic Church From Anything, I Know Him More For  His Ecumenism, Bowing to Altypes Of Spiritual Leaders ,Pagans and Some Really Strange Groups, The Message he seems be sending to catholics and Orthodox was, Your All Right I'm all right ,In His Travel's Around The world And they Could be saved Without Christ......And didn't some of the Catholics Groups Incorporate some of the Non Catholic Practices in there Own Religious Practices.......

I can't And won't Accept him as Blessed or a Future Saint......But a Sower of Confusion........ police

If you put in 'kissing the Q'uran' you would fit in nicely in some traditionalist Catholic forums I have had the occassion to peruse at times  Wink
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« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2011, 05:51:54 PM »

I'm not sure what Damian Thompson is thinking here but there was never really any chance that the Catholics would go down the Anglican road. Their besetting sins simply aren't our besetting sins.

Good post.

I guess the "JP II saved the RCC from from going the way of the Anglican Communion" thing shouldn't be taken too literally. (One would have to ask "Then who saved the EOC from from going the way of the Anglican Communion"?)
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« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2011, 06:16:10 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!
97% of males have masturbated. Does that mean the prohibition against it in the Orthodox Church is no good?
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« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2011, 06:34:53 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!
97% of males have masturbated. Does that mean the prohibition against it in the Orthodox Church is no good?

I didn't know it was a sin in Orthodoxy...Probably get a pass from the passtor... Cheesy
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« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2011, 07:15:14 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!
97% of males have masturbated. Does that mean the prohibition against it in the Orthodox Church is no good?

I didn't know it was a sin in Orthodoxy...Probably get a pass from the passtor... Cheesy
Only nocturnal emissions are. Tongue
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« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2011, 07:19:18 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!
97% of males have masturbated. Does that mean the prohibition against it in the Orthodox Church is no good?

I didn't know it was a sin in Orthodoxy...Probably get a pass from the passtor... Cheesy
Only nocturnal emissions are. Tongue
haha!!!
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« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2011, 07:29:49 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!
97% of males have masturbated. Does that mean the prohibition against it in the Orthodox Church is no good?

I didn't know it was a sin in Orthodoxy...Probably get a pass from the passtor... Cheesy
Only nocturnal emissions are. Tongue

 Cool
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« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2011, 07:35:17 PM »

I didn't know it was a sin in Orthodoxy...Probably get a pass from the passtor... Cheesy

I need to find one of those fabled modernist priests that traditionalists are always decrying.

"Masturbation? Lust? God doesn't care! Have fun!" - Fr. Vasily the New
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« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2011, 07:37:50 PM »

I didn't know it was a sin in Orthodoxy...Probably get a pass from the passtor... Cheesy

I need to find one of those fabled modernist priests that traditionalists are always decrying.

"Masturbation? Lust? God doesn't care! Have fun!" - Fr. Vasily the New

Ooops!!
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« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2011, 08:45:13 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!
97% of males have masturbated. Does that mean the prohibition against it in the Orthodox Church is no good?

I didn't know it was a sin in Orthodoxy...Probably get a pass from the passtor... Cheesy
Only nocturnal emissions are. Tongue
God spare us if we hear you or Papist bemoaning the Orthodox for "anti-Latinism" again (whatever that means). I think this was over the line. Good job. I hope you're proud of your clever "jokes."

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2011, 09:20:20 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!
97% of males have masturbated. Does that mean the prohibition against it in the Orthodox Church is no good?

I didn't know it was a sin in Orthodoxy...Probably get a pass from the passtor... Cheesy
Only nocturnal emissions are. Tongue
God spare us if we hear you or Papist bemoaning the Orthodox for "anti-Latinism" again (whatever that means). I think this was over the line. Good job. I hope you're proud of your clever "jokes."

In Christ,
Andrew

I'm going to hope that they aren't proud of them.
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« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2011, 09:43:26 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!
97% of males have masturbated. Does that mean the prohibition against it in the Orthodox Church is no good?

I didn't know it was a sin in Orthodoxy...Probably get a pass from the passtor... Cheesy
Only nocturnal emissions are. Tongue
God spare us if we hear you or Papist bemoaning the Orthodox for "anti-Latinism" again (whatever that means). I think this was over the line. Good job. I hope you're proud of your clever "jokes."

In Christ,
Andrew
The funniest part about it is the fact that it isn't a joke. I find the fact that a nocturnal emission could ever be considered a sin by any Christian group to be reprehensible, and it has been indicated by at least one on this forum that that is the Eastern Orthodox position. I don't understand what any of this has to do with anti-Latinism, other than the fact that that is another thing that is reprehensible about Eastern Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 09:44:17 PM by Wyatt » Logged
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« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2011, 09:52:40 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!
97% of males have masturbated. Does that mean the prohibition against it in the Orthodox Church is no good?

I didn't know it was a sin in Orthodoxy...Probably get a pass from the passtor... Cheesy
Only nocturnal emissions are. Tongue
God spare us if we hear you or Papist bemoaning the Orthodox for "anti-Latinism" again (whatever that means). I think this was over the line. Good job. I hope you're proud of your clever "jokes."

In Christ,
Andrew
The funniest part about it is the fact that it isn't a joke. I find the fact that a nocturnal emission could ever be considered a sin by any Christian group to be reprehensible, and it has been indicated by at least one on this forum that that is the Eastern Orthodox position.

I wasn't aware of that. (I don't read every single thread, obviously.)
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« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2011, 09:59:21 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!
97% of males have masturbated. Does that mean the prohibition against it in the Orthodox Church is no good?

I didn't know it was a sin in Orthodoxy...Probably get a pass from the passtor... Cheesy
Only nocturnal emissions are. Tongue
God spare us if we hear you or Papist bemoaning the Orthodox for "anti-Latinism" again (whatever that means). I think this was over the line. Good job. I hope you're proud of your clever "jokes."

In Christ,
Andrew
The funniest part about it is the fact that it isn't a joke. I find the fact that a nocturnal emission could ever be considered a sin by any Christian group to be reprehensible, and it has been indicated by at least one on this forum that that is the Eastern Orthodox position.

I wasn't aware of that. (I don't read every single thread, obviously.)
Probably a good idea not to presume to know my intentions before you have all the facts then. Wink
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« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2011, 10:11:26 PM »

The funniest part about it is the fact that it isn't a joke. I find the fact that a nocturnal emission could ever be considered a sin by any Christian group to be reprehensible, and it has been indicated by at least one on this forum that that is the Eastern Orthodox position. I don't understand what any of this has to do with anti-Latinism, other than the fact that that is another thing that is reprehensible about Eastern Orthodoxy.

Out of curiosity, would you say the same thing ("reprehensible") if I could produce quotes from Church Fathers calling the act sinful? What about quotes claiming that showed a lack of control or holiness?
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« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2011, 10:14:15 PM »

The funniest part about it is the fact that it isn't a joke. I find the fact that a nocturnal emission could ever be considered a sin by any Christian group to be reprehensible, and it has been indicated by at least one on this forum that that is the Eastern Orthodox position. I don't understand what any of this has to do with anti-Latinism, other than the fact that that is another thing that is reprehensible about Eastern Orthodoxy.

Out of curiosity, would you say the same thing ("reprehensible") if I could produce quotes from Church Fathers calling the act sinful? What about quotes claiming that showed a lack of control or holiness?
Yes, because not every single thing the Church fathers said is binding. You guys should know by the way you downplay everything St. Augustine ever taught (and probably other Western Fathers).
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« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2011, 10:20:46 PM »

The funniest part about it is the fact that it isn't a joke. I find the fact that a nocturnal emission could ever be considered a sin by any Christian group to be reprehensible, and it has been indicated by at least one on this forum that that is the Eastern Orthodox position. I don't understand what any of this has to do with anti-Latinism, other than the fact that that is another thing that is reprehensible about Eastern Orthodoxy.

Out of curiosity, would you say the same thing ("reprehensible") if I could produce quotes from Church Fathers calling the act sinful? What about quotes claiming that showed a lack of control or holiness?
Yes, because not every single thing the Church fathers said is binding. You guys should know by the way you downplay everything St. Augustine ever taught (and probably other Western Fathers).

Sts. Vincent of Lerins, John Cassian, and Ambrose of Milan are three of my favorite saints. I've also spent time vigorously defending the saintly status of Augustine, on this forum and elsewhere. Thanks for asking Wink But returning to the other topic, the question is not whether everything a Church Father says is binding, but whether you would be so audacious as to call them reprehensible. For example, I do not agree with Sts. Jerome, Augustine, Gregory the Great, Caesarius of arles, and other saints regarding some of their views concerning sexuality, but I wouldn't call them reprehensible.
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« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2011, 10:23:36 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!
97% of males have masturbated. Does that mean the prohibition against it in the Orthodox Church is no good?

I didn't know it was a sin in Orthodoxy...Probably get a pass from the passtor... Cheesy
Only nocturnal emissions are. Tongue
God spare us if we hear you or Papist bemoaning the Orthodox for "anti-Latinism" again (whatever that means). I think this was over the line. Good job. I hope you're proud of your clever "jokes."

In Christ,
Andrew
The funniest part about it is the fact that it isn't a joke. I find the fact that a nocturnal emission could ever be considered a sin by any Christian group to be reprehensible, and it has been indicated by at least one on this forum that that is the Eastern Orthodox position. I don't understand what any of this has to do with anti-Latinism, other than the fact that that is another thing that is reprehensible about Eastern Orthodoxy.
Surely, you missed my point. You and Papist are constantly whining about Orthodox doing this or that to you and offending you for one reason or another, yet given an opportunity, you hasten to take potshots at the Orthodox, mocking them any chance you get, yet no one is calling you "anti-Orthodox." Let's be honest here, Wyatt.

I find your potshots at your perception of Orthodoxy to be reprehensible and disturbing. Surely, you know that "I saw it on the internet" just doesn't cut it. I talked with my priest about this very subject that you're mocking and he had something to say that was different from what you are trying to characterize as the Orthodox position. So please spare us the justification for your crude "joke."

In Christ,
Andrew
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"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
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« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2011, 10:28:57 PM »

The funniest part about it is the fact that it isn't a joke. I find the fact that a nocturnal emission could ever be considered a sin by any Christian group to be reprehensible, and it has been indicated by at least one on this forum that that is the Eastern Orthodox position. I don't understand what any of this has to do with anti-Latinism, other than the fact that that is another thing that is reprehensible about Eastern Orthodoxy.

Out of curiosity, would you say the same thing ("reprehensible") if I could produce quotes from Church Fathers calling the act sinful? What about quotes claiming that showed a lack of control or holiness?
Yes, because not every single thing the Church fathers said is binding. You guys should know by the way you downplay everything St. Augustine ever taught (and probably other Western Fathers).

Sts. Vincent of Lerins, John Cassian, and Ambrose of Milan are three of my favorite saints. I've also spent time vigorously defending the saintly status of Augustine, on this forum and elsewhere. Thanks for asking Wink But returning to the other topic, the question is not whether everything a Church Father says is binding, but whether you would be so audacious as to call them reprehensible. For example, I do not agree with Sts. Jerome, Augustine, Gregory the Great, Caesarius of arles, and other saints regarding some of their views concerning sexuality, but I wouldn't call them reprehensible.
Reread what I said. What I actually said was that "I find the fact that a nocturnal emission could ever be considered a sin by any Christian group to be reprehensible." I said the fact was reprehensible, not the Christian group, not Eastern Orthodoxy, the fact. I was very careful not to say that I found Eastern Orthodoxy to be reprehensible. I find the teaching reprehensible. I wouldn't call any of the Fathers of the Church reprehensible just as I would not call the Eastern Orthodox Church (which my Church holds in very high regard) reprehensible.
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« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2011, 10:31:16 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!
97% of males have masturbated. Does that mean the prohibition against it in the Orthodox Church is no good?

I didn't know it was a sin in Orthodoxy...Probably get a pass from the passtor... Cheesy
Only nocturnal emissions are. Tongue
God spare us if we hear you or Papist bemoaning the Orthodox for "anti-Latinism" again (whatever that means). I think this was over the line. Good job. I hope you're proud of your clever "jokes."

In Christ,
Andrew
The funniest part about it is the fact that it isn't a joke. I find the fact that a nocturnal emission could ever be considered a sin by any Christian group to be reprehensible, and it has been indicated by at least one on this forum that that is the Eastern Orthodox position. I don't understand what any of this has to do with anti-Latinism, other than the fact that that is another thing that is reprehensible about Eastern Orthodoxy.
Surely, you missed my point. You and Papist are constantly whining about Orthodox doing this or that to you and offending you for one reason or another, yet given an opportunity, you hasten to take potshots at the Orthodox, mocking them any chance you get, yet no one is calling you "anti-Orthodox." Let's be honest here, Wyatt.

I find your potshots at your perception of Orthodoxy to be reprehensible and disturbing. Surely, you know that "I saw it on the internet" just doesn't cut it. I talked with my priest about this very subject that you're mocking and he had something to say that was different from what you are trying to characterize as the Orthodox position. So please spare us the justification for your crude "joke."

In Christ,
Andrew
And surely you also know that the internet does not give one the green light to just say whatever they want, either. Obviously it doesn't or else you wouldn't be lashing out at me right now. If someone says that a nocturnal emission would be considered a sin by the Eastern Orthodox Church, and that person happens to say it on an internet forum, what am I to think? Am I just supposed to assume it absolutely isn't true solely because it was stated on the internet?
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« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2011, 10:33:53 PM »

Wyatt, going back over the posts, I can see that I have misunderstood what you meant and falsely attributed something to you, so I apologize for that.
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« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2011, 10:37:14 PM »

Wyatt, going back over the posts, I can see that I have misunderstood what you meant and falsely attributed something to you, so I apologize for that.
I forgive you. I was about ready to apologize myself actually because, before rereading my post, I was afraid I had inadvertently phrased something wrong and gave the impression that I was saying something other than what I intended to say.
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« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2011, 10:46:46 PM »


As for people on the way to hell, only God is the judge of their souls.


I think this is too facile and it discredits Catholic teaching.  The Popes equate the sin of contraception and its eternal penalties with the gravity of murder and adultery.

Now if 97% of your young people were engaged in either of these activities, I doubt if you would brush it away so casually.

Take ownership of your doctrines!  Face the consequences!
97% of males have masturbated. Does that mean the prohibition against it in the Orthodox Church is no good?

I didn't know it was a sin in Orthodoxy...Probably get a pass from the passtor... Cheesy
Only nocturnal emissions are. Tongue
God spare us if we hear you or Papist bemoaning the Orthodox for "anti-Latinism" again (whatever that means). I think this was over the line. Good job. I hope you're proud of your clever "jokes."

In Christ,
Andrew
The funniest part about it is the fact that it isn't a joke. I find the fact that a nocturnal emission could ever be considered a sin by any Christian group to be reprehensible, and it has been indicated by at least one on this forum that that is the Eastern Orthodox position. I don't understand what any of this has to do with anti-Latinism, other than the fact that that is another thing that is reprehensible about Eastern Orthodoxy.
Surely, you missed my point. You and Papist are constantly whining about Orthodox doing this or that to you and offending you for one reason or another, yet given an opportunity, you hasten to take potshots at the Orthodox, mocking them any chance you get, yet no one is calling you "anti-Orthodox." Let's be honest here, Wyatt.

I find your potshots at your perception of Orthodoxy to be reprehensible and disturbing. Surely, you know that "I saw it on the internet" just doesn't cut it. I talked with my priest about this very subject that you're mocking and he had something to say that was different from what you are trying to characterize as the Orthodox position. So please spare us the justification for your crude "joke."

In Christ,
Andrew
And surely you also know that the internet does not give one the green light to just say whatever they want, either. Obviously it doesn't or else you wouldn't be lashing out at me right now. If someone says that a nocturnal emission would be considered a sin by the Eastern Orthodox Church, and that person happens to say it on an internet forum, what am I to think? Am I just supposed to assume it absolutely isn't true solely because it was stated on the internet?
People on the internet say all kinds of things. If I believed half the things I heard, I'd be a mess!  Cheesy

*sigh* Perhaps, I am expecting too much out of people these days. Doing a little research for oneself could go a long way to dispel myth, increase understanding and perhaps foster charity and respect for another group that you might not agree with. Wink A novelty! Smiley

You made an inaccurate statement, in a very uncivil, rude and condescending way that could very well have offended any number of people (including anyone who might be lurking) and I am now holding you to it. IMHO, you do yourself a great disservice to your church for those lurking and might be on the fence and seeing your words. Again, just my opinion.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2011, 10:55:02 PM »

I find the fact that a nocturnal emission could ever be considered a sin by any Christian group to be reprehensible,[1] and it has been indicated by at least one on this forum that that is the Eastern Orthodox position. I don't understand what any of this has to do with anti-Latinism, other than the fact that that is another thing that is reprehensible about Eastern Orthodoxy.
I haven't seen any documentation for this thing that supposedly proves Eastern Orthodoxy is "reprehensible"[1] being a dogma of the Church (like contraceptive use being a mortal sin in the CCC), but let that pass for the time being.

I still don't get how this is suppose to be equivalent to use of contraceptives as a mortal sin which obliterates all sanctifying grace in the souls of those using it while knowing it is wrong according to the CCC in an age when 97% of married Catholics are doing that in the U. S.

At least in Orthodoxy the only mortal sin is refusal to repent. We all sin daily in thought, word, and deed; perhaps a simple Jesus Prayer, or the sheer mercy of God due to the intercessions of the saints could suffice for the Orthodox in such a case.
___________
[1]EDIT -apology noted, and qualification above (cross-posting prevented my seeing it sooner)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 10:59:28 PM by xariskai » Logged

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« Reply #74 on: May 04, 2011, 11:02:23 PM »

People on the internet say all kinds of things. If I believed half the things I heard, I'd be a mess!  Cheesy

*sigh* Perhaps, I am expecting too much out of people these days. Doing a little research for oneself could go a long way to dispel myth, increase understanding and perhaps foster charity and respect for another group that you might not agree with. Wink A novelty! Smiley

You made an inaccurate statement, in a very uncivil, rude and condescending way that could very well have offended any number of people (including anyone who might be lurking) and I am now holding you to it. IMHO, you do yourself a great disservice to your church for those lurking and might be on the fence and seeing your words. Again, just my opinion.

In Christ,
Andrew
And I have explained already what I meant by what I said. If you want to continue to attack my character and claim I am being uncivil and rude then that is your choice.
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« Reply #75 on: May 04, 2011, 11:08:29 PM »

People on the internet say all kinds of things. If I believed half the things I heard, I'd be a mess!  Cheesy

*sigh* Perhaps, I am expecting too much out of people these days. Doing a little research for oneself could go a long way to dispel myth, increase understanding and perhaps foster charity and respect for another group that you might not agree with. Wink A novelty! Smiley

You made an inaccurate statement, in a very uncivil, rude and condescending way that could very well have offended any number of people (including anyone who might be lurking) and I am now holding you to it. IMHO, you do yourself a great disservice to your church for those lurking and might be on the fence and seeing your words. Again, just my opinion.

In Christ,
Andrew
And I have explained already what I meant by what I said. If you want to continue to attack my character and claim I am being uncivil and rude then that is your choice.
Wyatt, I am not attacking your character at all. Please do not misunderstand. I made it clear that I thought you were behaving uncivilly and rudely, meaning your actions were rude and uncivil. In spite of all this, we both have something in common: we don't like it when people make inaccurate statements about our faith. Let's try to move beyond this, with God's grace. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #76 on: May 04, 2011, 11:13:27 PM »

People on the internet say all kinds of things. If I believed half the things I heard, I'd be a mess!  Cheesy

*sigh* Perhaps, I am expecting too much out of people these days. Doing a little research for oneself could go a long way to dispel myth, increase understanding and perhaps foster charity and respect for another group that you might not agree with. Wink A novelty! Smiley

You made an inaccurate statement, in a very uncivil, rude and condescending way that could very well have offended any number of people (including anyone who might be lurking) and I am now holding you to it. IMHO, you do yourself a great disservice to your church for those lurking and might be on the fence and seeing your words. Again, just my opinion.

In Christ,
Andrew
And I have explained already what I meant by what I said. If you want to continue to attack my character and claim I am being uncivil and rude then that is your choice.
Wyatt, I am not attacking your character at all. Please do not misunderstand. I made it clear that I thought you were behaving uncivilly and rudely, meaning your actions were rude and uncivil. In spite of all this, we both have something in common: we don't like it when people make inaccurate statements about our faith. Let's try to move beyond this, with God's grace. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
I apologize. Clearly this has not been the best of nights for me and I think I better sign off while I am ahead. My being cranky due to drowsiness plus apparently poor reading comprehension (also due to drowsiness) is not a good thing.  Cheesy
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« Reply #77 on: May 04, 2011, 11:20:55 PM »

People on the internet say all kinds of things. If I believed half the things I heard, I'd be a mess!  Cheesy

*sigh* Perhaps, I am expecting too much out of people these days. Doing a little research for oneself could go a long way to dispel myth, increase understanding and perhaps foster charity and respect for another group that you might not agree with. Wink A novelty! Smiley

You made an inaccurate statement, in a very uncivil, rude and condescending way that could very well have offended any number of people (including anyone who might be lurking) and I am now holding you to it. IMHO, you do yourself a great disservice to your church for those lurking and might be on the fence and seeing your words. Again, just my opinion.

In Christ,
Andrew
And I have explained already what I meant by what I said. If you want to continue to attack my character and claim I am being uncivil and rude then that is your choice.
Wyatt, I am not attacking your character at all. Please do not misunderstand. I made it clear that I thought you were behaving uncivilly and rudely, meaning your actions were rude and uncivil. In spite of all this, we both have something in common: we don't like it when people make inaccurate statements about our faith. Let's try to move beyond this, with God's grace. Smiley

In Christ,
Andrew
I apologize. Clearly this has not been the best of nights for me and I think I better sign off while I am ahead. My being cranky due to drowsiness plus apparently poor reading comprehension (also due to drowsiness) is not a good thing.  Cheesy
Apology accepted! Please forgive me, as well. Smiley I'm getting rather drowsy myself!  Cheesy

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #78 on: May 05, 2011, 12:30:04 AM »

According to the Didiach of the Apostles there are only really three Mortal sins, Murder, Adultery, and Apostasy.  A lot of the sins listed in RC Catholicisms and confession primers are probably just speculations from moral theologians.  In fact I would say that, given the criteria I've mentioned the vast majority of baptized believers may have never even committed a mortal sin in their lives. 

I was really happy to hear that B XVI was thinking about loosening the rules for the use of contraception in the RCC towards the end of last year.  I thought to myself "finally", but then he had to go and retract his statements (Or did he, I think the retraction was made only by the CDF, but correct me if I'm wrong). 
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« Reply #79 on: May 05, 2011, 12:35:21 AM »

I find the fact that a nocturnal emission could ever be considered a sin by any Christian group to be reprehensible,[1] and it has been indicated by at least one on this forum that that is the Eastern Orthodox position. I don't understand what any of this has to do with anti-Latinism, other than the fact that that is another thing that is reprehensible about Eastern Orthodoxy.
I haven't seen any documentation for this thing that supposedly proves Eastern Orthodoxy is "reprehensible"[1] being a dogma of the Church (like contraceptive use being a mortal sin in the CCC), but let that pass for the time being.

I still don't get how this is suppose to be equivalent to use of contraceptives as a mortal sin which obliterates all sanctifying grace in the souls of those using it while knowing it is wrong according to the CCC in an age when 97% of married Catholics are doing that in the U. S.

At least in Orthodoxy the only mortal sin is refusal to repent. We all sin daily in thought, word, and deed; perhaps a simple Jesus Prayer, or the sheer mercy of God due to the intercessions of the saints could suffice for the Orthodox in such a case.
___________
[1]EDIT -apology noted, and qualification above (cross-posting prevented my seeing it sooner)

As a Catholic I never knew much about sanctifying grace, what it was, or how I got it.  Like most Catholics I just tried to live my life and do what was right and, if I made a major sin then to confess it to a priest.  The whole idea of collecting things like grace and merits never caused much concern for me and I doubt that the vast, vast majority of RC's around the world really think or know much about it anyway.  The whole idea of collecting sanctifying grace in ones soul sounds too much to me like being evangelistic, or even superstitious.  What is grace?  Can we feel it?  Is it something we can collect In a  jar like butterfly's?  I don't know what this grace is and really have never given too much thought about how to get it.  I just, as said before try to live my life as best I can and be a good person, helping others as I can along life's journey.  If this way of living can't produce grace then who needs it? 
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« Reply #80 on: May 05, 2011, 01:38:25 AM »

As a Catholic I never knew much about sanctifying grace, what it was, or how I got it.  Like most Catholics I just tried to live my life and do what was right and, if I made a major sin then to confess it to a priest.  The whole idea of collecting things like grace and merits never caused much concern for me and I doubt that the vast, vast majority of RC's around the world really think or know much about it anyway.  The whole idea of collecting sanctifying grace in ones soul sounds too much to me like being evangelistic, or even superstitious.  What is grace?  Can we feel it?  Is it something we can collect In a  jar like butterfly's?  I don't know what this grace is and really have never given too much thought about how to get it.  I just, as said before try to live my life as best I can and be a good person, helping others as I can along life's journey.  If this way of living can't produce grace then who needs it?  
This is a huge question which the Orthodox tradition answers in a *completely* different way Latin tradition (cf. RC Nature/Grace dualism). In Orthodox Christianity the Grace/Gift of God (grace literally means gift) is nothing less than God Himself:

"In short, the Orthodox understanding of the nature of Grace is that it is the very energies of God Himself. Through the Trinitarian ministry of the Holy Spirit—a ministry involving both general and special activities—these energies are mediated to mankind. This stands in contrast to the Latin view flowing mainly from the anti-Pelagian writings of Saint Augustine. For Roman Catholics, Grace is a created intermediary between God and man"  (Patrick Barnes, The Non-Orthodox: The Orthodox Teaching on Christians Outside of the Church. (Salisbury, MA, Regina Orthodox Press, 1999), p. 4).

Cf. also Vladimir Lossky: [The] theology of the Eastern Church distinguishes in God the three hypostases, the nature or essence, and the energies. The Son and the Holy Spirit are, so to say, personal processions, the energies, natural processions. The energies are inseparable from the nature, and the nature is inseparable from the three Persons. These distinctions are of great importance for the Eastern Church’s conception of mystical life:…  3) The distinction between the essence and the energies, which is fundamental for the Orthodox doctrine of grace, makes it possible to preserve the real meaning of Saint Peter’s words “partakers of the divine nature” [2 Peter 1:4]. The union to which we are called is neither hypostatic—as in the case of the human nature of Christ—nor substantial, as in that of the three divine Persons: it is union with God in His energies, or union by grace making us participate in the divine nature, without our essence becoming thereby the essence of God. In deification [theosis] we are by grace (that is to say, in the divine energies), all that God is by nature, save only identity of nature... according to the teaching of Saint Maximus. We remain creatures while becoming God by grace, as Christ remained God in becoming man by the Incarnation... Eastern tradition knows no such supernatural order between God and the created world, adding, as it were, to the latter a new creation. It recognizes no distinction, or rather division, save that between the created and the uncreated. For [the] eastern tradition the created supernatural has no existence. That which western theology calls by the name of the supernatural signifies for the East the uncreated—the divine energies ineffably distinct from the essence of God. . . . The act of creation established a relationship between the divine energies and that which is not God... [However,] the divine energies in themselves are not the relationship of God to created being, but they do enter into relationship with that which is not God [i.e., His creation], and draw the world into existence by the will of God" (Vladimir Lossky, The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church (London: James Clark and Co., 1957), pp. 85-86, 87-88).

I must say for my own part that re-reading the NT where it speaks of things like Gift of God, in Christ, the Glory of God, partakers of the Divine Nature etc. is completely transformed by the Orthodox Way, which opens to us nothing less than encounter -ontological, not just legal- with the Living God Himself! This seems so much more powerful and profound than something like a "storehouse of merit" as if in some celestial bank vault or something.

According to the Didiach of the Apostles there are only really three Mortal sins, Murder, Adultery, and Apostasy.  A lot of the sins listed in RC Catholicisms and confession primers are probably just speculations from moral theologians.  In fact I would say that, given the criteria I've mentioned the vast majority of baptized believers may have never even committed a mortal sin in their lives.  

I was really happy to hear that B XVI was thinking about loosening the rules for the use of contraception in the RCC towards the end of last year.  I thought to myself "finally", but then he had to go and retract his statements (Or did he, I think the retraction was made only by the CDF, but correct me if I'm wrong).  
I have seen Latin Catholic sources trace this to the Didache, but I don't recall seeing it there specifically (the sins you mentioned do occur in a more generalized discussion of the way of light and the way of darkness). Do you (or does anyone) have an exact quote from the Didache in mind as *explicitly* (rather than inferentially) affirming a mortal/venial distinction for particular offenses rather than ways of life? My current understanding is the mortal/venial demarcation is not a dogma of the Orthodox Church but only an opinion (theologoumenon) sometimes of obvious Latin derivation, and one which I often see specifically denied among Orthodox writers.

According to Fr. Allyne Smith, "While the Roman Catholic tradition has identified particular acts as 'mortal' sins, in the Orthodox tradition we see that only a sin for which we don't repent is 'mortal" (Fr. Allyne Smith, in G. E. H. Palmer, Philip Sherrard, and Bishop Kallistos Ware, trs., Phylokalia: The Eastern Christian Spiritual Texts (Skylight Press, 2000), p. 2).

This understanding is also reflected in the OCA website's article "Sin":
Quote
"In the Orthodox Church there are no "categories" of sin as found in the Christian West. In the pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic catechism, sins were categorized as "mortal" and "venial." In this definition, a "mortal" sin was one which would prevent someone from entering heaven unless one confessed it before death. Not only were such things as pride, lust, and sloth on the list of "mortal" sins, but failing to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation were also considered "mortal" sins. A "venial" sin, according to this line of thinking, did not jeopardize one's salvation. While stealing a car might be considered a "mortal" sin, stealing a candy bar was not. While a "venial" sin did not jeopardize one's salvation, it still needed to be confessed and still may have had time in purgatory attached to it. Another way to see this distinction in Roman Catholic teaching -- and here I simplifyy a tremendously complex line of reasoning -- is as follows: If one commits a mortal sin and dies before confessing it, one would go straight to hell. If one commits a venial sin and dies before confessing it, one would not go straight to hell, but would have to spend time in purgatory before entering heaven. [The Orthodox Church does not accept the teaching on purgatory that developed in more recent times in Roman Catholicism.] These categories do not exist in the Orthodox Church. Sin is sin.

Concerning Confession, having a list of deadly sins could, in fact, become an obstacle to genuine repentance. For example, imagine that you commit a sin. You look on the list and do not find it listed. It would be very easy to take the attitude that, since it is not on a list of deadly sins, it is not too serious. Hence, you do not feel the need to seek God's forgiveness right away. A week passes and you have completely forgotten about what you had done. You never sought God's forgiveness; as a result, you did not receive it, either. We should go to Confession when we sin -- at the very least, we should ask God to forgive us daily in our personal prayers. We should not see Confession as a time to confess only those sins which may be found on a list." "Sin," Orthodox Church in America website: http://www.oca.org/qa.asp?id=153&sid=3
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« Reply #81 on: May 05, 2011, 06:18:41 AM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

And then there's the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  We also don't know how many availed themselves of that after using artificial contraception with full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong.

We're always on dangerous ground when we pronounce who is or isn't going to hell.

The Roman Catholic teaching used to be (is it still?) that mortal sin removes sanctifying grace from the soul.  It is dead.   The consequence of that is that it must go to hell. 

There are then two ways to avoid hell:

1.  Confession and sacramental absolution from a priest
2.  An act of perfect contrition.


Is this still the teaching?


This was rock solid Roman Catholic teaching in the 1950s and 1960s.
 
Nobody has answered the question if it still is?  Do Catholics not know?
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« Reply #82 on: May 05, 2011, 09:49:39 AM »

The funniest part about it is the fact that it isn't a joke. I find the fact that a nocturnal emission could ever be considered a sin by any Christian group to be reprehensible, and it has been indicated by at least one on this forum that that is the Eastern Orthodox position. I don't understand what any of this has to do with anti-Latinism, other than the fact that that is another thing that is reprehensible about Eastern Orthodoxy.

Out of curiosity, would you say the same thing ("reprehensible") if I could produce quotes from Church Fathers calling the act sinful? What about quotes claiming that showed a lack of control or holiness?
Yes, because not every single thing the Church fathers said is binding. You guys should know by the way you downplay everything St. Augustine ever taught (and probably other Western Fathers).

You are WAY over the edge on this one Wyatt.

Nocturnal emissions are indeed indicative of an over-active libido.  You can through prayer do something about that and you can CONFESS it so that you may gain the graces to fight that internal spiritual warfare.

If all you are is a Sunday Catholic...fine...but don't mock others because they seek something deeper and richer.

I am sorry to be mean about this but you need to swallow that pride of yours and admit that you may be in way over your head here.

Mary

PS: I missed your sign off note but my comments still stand.   I pray you come back more clear headed on this particular thread and more relaxed and rested in general !!
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« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2011, 10:03:00 AM »

What Has Nocturnal emmisions have to do with the Subject ,JP II saved the RCC from from going the way of the Anglican Communion , Start Another Thread About it ...... Huh Huh Huh
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« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2011, 10:10:31 AM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

And then there's the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  We also don't know how many availed themselves of that after using artificial contraception with full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong.

We're always on dangerous ground when we pronounce who is or isn't going to hell.

The Roman Catholic teaching used to be (is it still?) that mortal sin removes sanctifying grace from the soul.  It is dead.   The consequence of that is that it must go to hell. 

There are then two ways to avoid hell:

1.  Confession and sacramental absolution from a priest
2.  An act of perfect contrition.


Is this still the teaching?


This was rock solid Roman Catholic teaching in the 1950s and 1960s.
 
Nobody has answered the question if it still is?  Do Catholics not know?

Lying, stealing, gossiping over the back fence and fornicating are all grave matter...Most of us do one of those things regularly in one form or another and we justify it as well...taking our behaviors right off the sin-map.

IF your logic were to rule then there would be no point in keeping the Decalogue up and running either.

So you are just a puff of bluster here as far as the reality of sin is concerned.
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« Reply #85 on: May 05, 2011, 11:13:01 AM »

What Has Nocturnal emmisions have to do with the Subject ,JP II saved the RCC from from going the way of the Anglican Communion , Start Another Thread About it ...... Huh Huh Huh


I agree, it seems that many, many threads about the relationships and differences between Orthodoxy and the Church of Rome frequently get derailed on issues about sex, contraception and the like.  Huh
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« Reply #86 on: May 05, 2011, 12:32:49 PM »

The funniest part about it is the fact that it isn't a joke. I find the fact that a nocturnal emission could ever be considered a sin by any Christian group to be reprehensible, and it has been indicated by at least one on this forum that that is the Eastern Orthodox position. I don't understand what any of this has to do with anti-Latinism, other than the fact that that is another thing that is reprehensible about Eastern Orthodoxy.

Out of curiosity, would you say the same thing ("reprehensible") if I could produce quotes from Church Fathers calling the act sinful? What about quotes claiming that showed a lack of control or holiness?
Yes, because not every single thing the Church fathers said is binding. You guys should know by the way you downplay everything St. Augustine ever taught (and probably other Western Fathers).

You are WAY over the edge on this one Wyatt.

Nocturnal emissions are indeed indicative of an over-active libido.  You can through prayer do something about that and you can CONFESS it so that you may gain the graces to fight that internal spiritual warfare.

If all you are is a Sunday Catholic...fine...but don't mock others because they seek something deeper and richer.

I am sorry to be mean about this but you need to swallow that pride of yours and admit that you may be in way over your head here.

Mary

PS: I missed your sign off note but my comments still stand.   I pray you come back more clear headed on this particular thread and more relaxed and rested in general !!
ElijahMaria, I have to stay that I usually think that your posts are fantastic, and I often disagree with you more. That being said, I cannot disagree more with the post above. Noturnal Emission are a natural physical process that eliminate excess or old bodily fluids. They akin to a woman's menstraul cycle. When a person is young, they have quite a an excess of hormones in their systems and so they are likely to produce more semen than is necassary, and this needs to be eliminated. This is not their fault. This is not because of some sinfulness in themselves. It is simply the result of physical development.
Young men, and even middle aged men, are not at fault for their bodies functioning properly and eliminating excess bodily fluids. People are only  at fault when they engage in lust, fantisize about sexullly explicity ideas, practice auto-eroticism, sex outside of the confines of the marriage between a man and a woman, etc...
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« Reply #87 on: May 05, 2011, 12:50:34 PM »

You are WAY over the edge on this one Wyatt.
Oh yeah?

Nocturnal emissions are indeed indicative of an over-active libido.  You can through prayer do something about that and you can CONFESS it so that you may gain the graces to fight that internal spiritual warfare.
Really? I thought it was just indicative of having male reproductive organs.

If all you are is a Sunday Catholic...fine...but don't mock others because they seek something deeper and richer.
Wow...really? So now you know my heart and know how devout of a Catholic I am?

I am sorry to be mean about this but you need to swallow that pride of yours and admit that you may be in way over your head here.
Kind of like how you need to swallow the pride that compels you to presume you know my innermost being. You are not the Holy Trinity.

PS: I missed your sign off note but my comments still stand.   I pray you come back more clear headed on this particular thread and more relaxed and rested in general !!
I pray that you come to a greater understanding of the male body and cease to believe that involuntary functions of the penis are dirty and evil.
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« Reply #88 on: May 05, 2011, 01:19:32 PM »

Nocturnal emissions are male business. I've had them along with vivid dreams at times when I was not indulging in self-abuse and did not have lustful feelings at all. Did I sin because I dreamed of having sex? I'd be willing to consider that such dreams can be brought about by demons but who's to say that has to be the case? Moreover, you don't have a strong libido by choice, unless you take testosterone perhaps, and that's not advisable unless you suffer from testosterone deficiency. I agree with the poster who said that to consider nocturnal emissions a sin is reprehensible, and I'm not Roman Catholic but an Orthodox catechumen. And yes, I have talked about the issue to my priest.
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« Reply #89 on: May 05, 2011, 01:19:54 PM »

The "Prayers of Purification" are widely used, and in particular in the event of a nocturnal emission. This is absolutely standard practice, as you might imagine, in monasteries, where this is the one bodily sexual concern for monks. Now, such an occurrence, if it does not involve the willful entertainment of lascivious thoughts during the day (which can lead to nocturnal emissions), is not considered a sin, as such, but a manifestation of our fallen state (see the fourth Canon of St. Dionysios of Alexandria). Yet, despite the fact that willful sin is not at issue in most instances, the prayers for purity are read, after a nocturnal emission, precisely because they are effective in controlling the passions. And the monastic life, which is about just that (control over the fallen passions), encourages asceticism even in innocence, since it is such an appropriate and Grace-filled and Grace-endowing tool.
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« Reply #90 on: May 05, 2011, 01:23:04 PM »

The Roman Catholic Church's stance on contraception is the butt of one of the most well known jokes in this country, if not the world.  While I will concede there may be some who are ignorant of the matter, the vast majority of baptised Catholics who use contraception know they are doing it against the explicit teaching of their church.  You are either being obtuse, naive, or downright deceitful if you say otherwise.

I will agree with you that most Roman Catholics know that their church teaches against contraception, and that they are going against the teaching by doing it anyway, but I disagree that everyone understands that it is a mortal sin and what that means.

Most of the younger Catholics don't even understand the mortal/venial distinction anymore, so for them to understand the gravity of this would be impossible. My mother has been Roman Catholic all her 64 years on this earth, and while she understands the gravity of a mortal sin and what it means, earlier this year she was shocked and completely disagreed that it was a mortal sin to miss church on Sunday for no good reason, the "Sunday obligation".
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« Reply #91 on: May 05, 2011, 01:35:29 PM »

Now, such an occurrence, if it does not involve the willful entertainment of lascivious thoughts during the day (which can lead to nocturnal emissions), is not considered a sin, as such, but a manifestation of our fallen state (see the fourth Canon of St. Dionysios of Alexandria).

Interesting read. I have no problem with the belief that nocturnal emissions are a manifestation of our fallen state. That position makes a lot more sense to me than to say having nocturnal emissions makes you guilty of sin, whatever the circumstances may be.
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« Reply #92 on: May 05, 2011, 01:41:07 PM »

It's a sad fact today that many people think that Catholic teaching is negotiable based on "extenuating circumstances" or the primacy of their "conscience." This they get from the surrounding society and from wishy-washy boomer priests.

Contraception is grave matter, and with full knowledge and consent of the will, it can  be a mortal sin. But I am not in the business of saying who is going to hell or not. I do not have window into their souls and cannot judge the level of their culpability.

Perhaps IrishHermit likes to do that, but I will not. I will say that no matter what percentage of people allegedly practice it, that is not a reasonable argument for changing an immemorial teaching about the divine plan for human sexuality.
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« Reply #93 on: May 05, 2011, 01:53:17 PM »

I was really happy to hear that B XVI was thinking about loosening the rules for the use of contraception in the RCC towards the end of last year.  I thought to myself "finally", but then he had to go and retract his statements (Or did he, I think the retraction was made only by the CDF, but correct me if I'm wrong). 

He was considering no such thing. He was speculating in an interview about the use of condoms for purposes other than contraception. He stated that condoms are not a solution but suggested that a male prostitute putting a condom on before sex with a male client so as to reduce the risk of the client contracting HIV could be the beginning of a moral awareness in the midst of what is entirely an immoral and disordered act. In other words, the consideration of the health of the client he is penetrating is the first fleeting sign of a moral awareness, the deepening of which would involve the disavowal of all homosexual and prostitution acts.

Contraception was not addressed in this part of the informal interview. And even if the Pope said in this interview that married couples could contracept all they like, it would raise doubts about Benedict's state of mind, but it wouldn't change the teaching. He's only the pope, not a direct oracle of God whenever he opens his mouth.  Wink

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« Reply #94 on: May 05, 2011, 01:56:12 PM »

Again, when it comes to this thread, why does it always seem to devolve into a discussion among Catholics as to what their Church does or doesn't teach about sex and apparently, related guilt? Can someone out there provide a cogent answer?
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« Reply #95 on: May 05, 2011, 04:30:52 PM »

http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=11084

Benedict on contraception, circa 1996
November 23, 2010, 5:46 pm Posted by Peter Steinfels



When Cardinal Ratzinger was elected pope, I read Salt of the Earth, one of the previous volumes of interviews with Peter Seewald, and was very struck by what Ratzinger, circa 1996, had to say about contraception.  You can find it on pp. 200-203 of the English-language edition published by Ignatius Press.  Perhaps one of the more than a hundred commenters on the previous post on Benedict’s statement on condoms in the new Seewald volume of interviews has already pointed this out.  If so, it’s worth bringing to the fore anyway. 

In Salt of the Earth, Ratzinger was sympathetic to the difficulty that many Catholics had in understanding the church’s teaching on contraception.  “We ought to look less at the casuistry of individual cases,” he said, “and more at the major objectives that the Church has in mind.”

He described those objectives as three.  “The first and most fundamental is to insist on the value of the child in society. . . . to recover the original, true view that the child, the new human being, is a blessing,”  in contrast to a contemporary view of children as threats and burdens.

The second was to oppose a separation of sexuality from procreation, which he illustrated with a reference to Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World  “in which sexuality is something completely detached from procreation.”   Children become products, quite apart from the relationships of men and women.

The third was the concern that humans not imagine they can “resolve great moral problems simply with techniques, with chemistry” rather than by how we live.

When I read this back in 2005, I was struck by the fact that none of these concerns bears on what for many Catholics was the crucial difficulty of Humana Vitae, its insistence that each and every act of sexual intercourse had to be open to the transmission of life or at least not deliberately prevent it, and that to do the latter would be seriously sinful.  Openness to children as blessings,  refusal of a drastic separation of sexuality from procreation, recognition that moral problems cannot be resolved by technique or technological manipulation — all of these “major objectives” are compatible with using contraception under some circumstances and to some extent.  Certainly they do not imply the never-ever of Humanae Vitae.

My impression that Ratzinger had a more flexible view on the matter than did the encyclical (or John Paul II) was confirmed by the closing exchange between Seewald and the then-head of the Holy office;

Seewald:  “The question remains whether you can reproach someone, say a couple who already have several children, for not having a positive attitude toward children.”

Ratzinger: “No, of course not, and that shouldn’t happen either.”

Seewald: “But must these people neverthless have the idea that they are living in some sort of sin if they . . . ”

Ratzinger: “I would say that those are questions that ought to be discussed with one’s spiritual director, with one’s priest, because they can’t be projected into the abstract.”   

Is it possible that Benedict’s statement on condoms now getting such publicity is rooted in convictions that the pope has long had, convictions that look more to the general standards and orientation by which people and societies live and less to absolute principles regarding individual acts?

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« Reply #96 on: May 05, 2011, 04:39:04 PM »

Well, if I understand correctly, the Orthodox view of contraception is that it is wrong for materialistic and selfish reasons, but permissible in cases where circumstances are such that raising children would be extremely difficult, although the overall use of contraception is to be limited and for a short period only. Do correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Perhaps this is also the view of Benedict XVI on the matter?
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« Reply #97 on: May 05, 2011, 07:44:38 PM »

Nocturnal emissions are male business. I've had them along with vivid dreams at times when I was not indulging in self-abuse and did not have lustful feelings at all. Did I sin because I dreamed of having sex? I'd be willing to consider that such dreams can be brought about by demons but who's to say that has to be the case? Moreover, you don't have a strong libido by choice, unless you take testosterone perhaps, and that's not advisable unless you suffer from testosterone deficiency. I agree with the poster who said that to consider nocturnal emissions a sin is reprehensible, and I'm not Roman Catholic but an Orthodox catechumen. And yes, I have talked about the issue to my priest.

Some of this discussion depends upon how one views sin and confession.  I raised a son alone so I have some idea of what goes on both in a man's mind and with his body.  He was very open with me for many years, and had an exceptionally active libido.  We often talked about ways that he could bring all that surging under control.  One of the things I suggested that he do was to confess all lustful thoughts and ask for the grace of the sacraments to help control those unanticipated times of fluid release...whenever they occurred.  We also worked with diet to try to help keep things humming along at a dull roar.

When he managed to take things seriously and keep a conscious and prayerful rein on himself, those involuntary moments decreased in frequency and in intensity.  He did not restrain himself into his early manhood, however, and left the Church and now pursues a very different kind of life.  We don't talk any longer about what belongs in the confessional and what does not.

The sexual struggles that we have are part of the post-lapsarian world and were it not for that we'd not be discussing the spiritual struggle to keep lusts and sexual urgings of any kind under control.  So it is in that light that we should take our struggles into the confessional...not always to ask forgiveness but to ask for grace to keep unruly urgings under better control...with the end goal of stilling all inordinate passions.   When we achieve custody of our senses, then the kinds of involuntary release that we are discussing here also diminish. 

Women have similar kinds of involuntary sexual release during sleep.  That too can be mastered...to a greater or lesser degree depending on the person, and the struggle, and the grace....

M.

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« Reply #98 on: May 05, 2011, 07:51:37 PM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

And then there's the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  We also don't know how many availed themselves of that after using artificial contraception with full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong.

We're always on dangerous ground when we pronounce who is or isn't going to hell.

The Roman Catholic teaching used to be (is it still?) that mortal sin removes sanctifying grace from the soul.  It is dead.   The consequence of that is that it must go to hell. 

There are then two ways to avoid hell:

1.  Confession and sacramental absolution from a priest
2.  An act of perfect contrition.


Is this still the teaching?


This was rock solid Roman Catholic teaching in the 1950s and 1960s.
 
Nobody has answered the question if it still is?  Do Catholics not know?

Lying, stealing, gossiping over the back fence and fornicating are all grave matter...Most of us do one of those things regularly in one form or another and we justify it as well...taking our behaviors right off the sin-map.

IF your logic were to rule then there would be no point in keeping the Decalogue up and running either.

So you are just a puff of bluster here as far as the reality of sin is concerned.


How amazing!   Instead of answering a very simple question you resort to huffing and puffing and denigrating the questioner.   Looking through your posts we see that you very often refuse to offer answers but instead make denigratory comments about the persons asking the questions.

I must admit that I did not expect this treatment over this question.  It is such a simple question and capable of being given a simple answer. 
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« Reply #99 on: May 05, 2011, 07:55:20 PM »

I consider it a miracle that the constant teaching on contraception was not jettisoned during this chaotic time.


Jettisoned by the Catholic faithful.  In the States the Catholic bishops' Secretariat for Family Planning estimates that 97% of Catholic marrieds are using forms of contraception considered mortally sinful by their Church.  That's an enormous number of Catholics on their way to hell.

So during the long pontificate of Pope John Paul more Catholics went to hell than any other period of history.
That is assuming that 100% of those who artificially contracepted had full knowledge that what they were doing is wrong. Full knowledge is one of the requirements for a sin to be mortal.

And then there's the Sacrament of Reconciliation.  We also don't know how many availed themselves of that after using artificial contraception with full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong.

We're always on dangerous ground when we pronounce who is or isn't going to hell.

The Roman Catholic teaching used to be (is it still?) that mortal sin removes sanctifying grace from the soul.  It is dead.   The consequence of that is that it must go to hell. 

There are then two ways to avoid hell:

1.  Confession and sacramental absolution from a priest
2.  An act of perfect contrition.


Is this still the teaching?


This was rock solid Roman Catholic teaching in the 1950s and 1960s.
 
Nobody has answered the question if it still is?  Do Catholics not know?

Lying, stealing, gossiping over the back fence and fornicating are all grave matter...Most of us do one of those things regularly in one form or another and we justify it as well...taking our behaviors right off the sin-map.

IF your logic were to rule then there would be no point in keeping the Decalogue up and running either.

So you are just a puff of bluster here as far as the reality of sin is concerned.


How amazing!   Instead of answering a very simple question you resort to huffing and puffing and denigrating the questioner.   Looking through your posts we see that you very often refuse to offer answers but instead make denigratory comments about the persons asking the questions.

I must admit that I did not expect this treatment over this question.  It is such a simple question and capable of being given a simple answer. 

Poor you!!....
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« Reply #100 on: May 05, 2011, 08:03:13 PM »

This topic has meandered FAR from the OP and, as such, I'm closing it.  If you want to continue the discussion on sex and the RCC, search for any number of threads on it.  If you want to continue to discuss contraception, we have a number of threads on that topic, as well.  Mortal/venial sin distinction?  There's a thread for that, too.  Indeed, the pet topics re: the RCC is like the Apple store: there's already an app for it.

Thank you for your continued participation here at OC.net.
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