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Author Topic: Ancient Celtic Orthodoxy  (Read 7852 times) Average Rating: 0
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Fr. David
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« on: May 31, 2004, 11:24:55 PM »

Anybody have any books/websites/etc. that would be good reads (perhaps over the summer) regarding the ancient Orthodox Celts (their lifestyles, monasticism, saints' writings, etc.)

Have read some of the Venerable Bede; mostly looking for uniquely Orthodox commentaries on the aspects of this branch of our family tree.
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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2004, 05:19:55 PM »

Quote
Ancient Celtic Orthodoxy

Aarghh!

Don't ask me why - I don't want to get into it -  just AARGHH!
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2004, 06:06:35 PM »

Anybody have any books/websites/etc. that would be good reads (perhaps over the summer) regarding the ancient Orthodox Celts (their lifestyles, monasticism, saints' writings, etc.)

Have read some of the Venerable Bede; mostly looking for uniquely Orthodox commentaries on the aspects of this branch of our family tree.

I'm probably going to regret this and I'm not trying to make trouble for you, Pedro, but why use "Orthodox" rather then "Christian" (in that this was before the Schism of 1054)?  From what I've read they didn't use Byzantine Rites.  They started before the "Filioque" debacle.  They were a Church that had roots from Rome, but had their own rites and customs as was the case across Christendom. (Gallican, Roman, Byzantine, etc)

You were reading Bede's History of the English Church?

Ebor
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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2004, 10:59:56 PM »

Hi Pedro,
I have found Father Andrew Philips material on the ancient British and Irish Church interesting and informative. You can find his website probably through a search of "Orthodox England" which is also his magazine. large parts of a couple of his books are on line at his site.  

As you search the net , beware of the massive amounts of new age hubris which surround the topic of "Celtic Orthodoxy" complete with Celtic "Churches" and occult priestesses.

Hope this helps.
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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2004, 11:10:15 PM »

Now this is very surprising....

Columcille!  I saw your post when you first put it up but was going to come back to it later; where did it go?

Linus7...um...PM me if you want to explain what "AARGHH!" means, I guess... Huh

Ebor...yes, I was reading Bede's History.  You said:

Quote
I'm probably going to regret this and I'm not trying to make trouble for you, Pedro, but why use "Orthodox" rather then "Christian" (in that this was before the Schism of 1054)?  From what I've read they didn't use Byzantine Rites.

LOL  Yeah, well, I'm probably one of the few Orthodox out there who actively discourage the immediate equation of Orthodox = Byzantine Rite.  I'm a big proponent of the use of the Western Rites within Orthodoxy (which makes me somewhat unpopular with some).  I'm just referring to those British Churches who were Christian, as you say...specifically, pre-synod of Whitby Celtic Christianity, before it came under Rome's influence.
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2004, 12:01:42 AM »

Pedro,

Her post was there earlier today #, I used some links.

james

# around 3:00 PM PST
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2004, 08:11:23 AM »

Ahem. . . . not a her.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/columba-rule.html

http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/articles_a/celts.htm

http://www.faculty.de.gcsu.edu/~dvess/ids/medieval/celtic/celtic.shtml

A good read - "Life of St. Columba" by Adomnon of Iona.
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2004, 11:16:27 AM »

Arrgh, my mistake, I owe you a cold one.

james

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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2004, 12:06:14 PM »

MacTarnahan's Scottish Style Ale and all is forgiven!
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2004, 12:12:39 PM »

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MacTarnahan's Scottish Style Ale and all is forgiven!

Hmmmmmmmmmm...........One of my favorite brews. Cool Cool
That has to be some of the best beer out there...... Cheesy

This talk of ancient celtic christianity & MacTarnahans makes me feel like busting out my Kilt & shuttle pipes...... Grin
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2004, 12:33:06 PM »

Now, would you be settled for a 6 pack of Newcastle's ?

I will try to sample this Scottish ale this weekend while in Arizona.

JB
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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2004, 01:11:17 PM »

Mmmmmmmmm! Newcastle! Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Good brew.
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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2004, 01:12:51 PM »

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That has to be some of the best beer out there......


Never a truer word spoken.  I'm in hearty agreement.
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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2004, 02:26:16 PM »

 
Now this is very surprising....

Columcille!  I saw your post when you first put it up but was going to come back to it later; where did it go?

Linus7...um...PM me if you want to explain what "AARGHH!" means, I guess... Huh

Ebor...yes, I was reading Bede's History.  You said:LOL  Yeah, well, I'm probably one of the few Orthodox out there who actively discourage the immediate equation of Orthodox = Byzantine Rite.  I'm a big proponent of the use of the Western Rites within Orthodoxy (which makes me somewhat unpopular with some).  I'm just referring to those British Churches who were Christian, as you say...specifically, pre-synod of Whitby Celtic Christianity, before it came under Rome's influence.

Something's a bit odd. TomS had a post in this thread iirc and it's gone, too.

Well, have you read St. Patrick's Confession? It's at:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pat-confession.html

"Before it came under Rome's influence"?  It was influenced by "Rome" from the start. A pope had sent a missionary to Ireland before Patrick. Patrick himself was at a monestary in Tours and at Lerins and was of British-Roman stock, the son of a deacon and grandson of a priest.

As a side note, there was a site mentioned on, I think, the York Forum, some time back that played merry-o with Patricks dates to make him the first missionary to that country BUT left out anything that he was Catholic.  This was not an EO site but one that was of the "Real Christianity was driven underground by the Eeeviiilll Catholics" school.  Sigh.

Thanks for the Orthodox /= Byzantine, Pedro.   Smiley  I know about WRO.  It's something of a controversy.

Ebor
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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2004, 03:30:15 PM »

Columcille!  I saw your post when you first put it up but was going to come back to it later; where did it go?

You can always ask him at Church on Sunday! Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2004, 06:37:18 PM »

You can always ask him at Church on Sunday! Smiley

<glares with a smirk at ambrosemzv>  YES...but as you see, this worked better, now didn't it?!  Grin

Quote
"Before it came under Rome's influence"?  It was influenced by "Rome" from the start.

You are correct, sir, in saying the influence was there; I'm just talking about pre-Whitby synod stuff, before the administration of Britain came under direct Roman responsibility, IIRC.  Due to this, some of the original, native Celtic liturgical expression (+í la Saurum and York) was replaced with that of Rome.

Quote
This was not an EO site but one that was of the "Real Christianity was driven underground by the Eeeviiilll Catholics" school.  Sigh.

Sigh, indeed.  And if by "Real Christianity" they mean the original, indiginous stuff that developed from Joseph of Arimathea and Aristobulous, well, it wasn't driven underground -- it was replaced, and not by the "Eeeevilll Catholics" (that's funny) -- but by a bastion of orthodoxy (at the time, at least).

Quote
Thanks for the Orthodox /= Byzantine, Pedro.    I know about WRO.  It's something of a controversy.

Grin  I figured I'd get some support from you on that!  It seems that the negativity comes from ex-episcopalians I know (though by no means all of them) who feel that they hadn't really "converted" until they changed rites.  

That is a point I can definitely see -- you have a long-bearded bishop visit one Sunday, smear oil on a bunch of you, then say, "congrats; you're Orthodox now!" while everything looks, smells, tastes, and sounds almost exactly the same as before.  Without a lot of catechism before chrismation, it's easy to slip into an identity crisis once you've been received.

That in mind, I still think its a wonderful idea to attempt to show the Orthodox Church's catholicity, even if it is only just now coming out of its infant stages and still with some 'bugs' to work out.

OK!  Off the soabox, Pedro!   Embarrassed Grin
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2004, 05:53:46 PM »

Grin  I figured I'd get some support from you on that!  It seems that the negativity comes from ex-episcopalians I know (though by no means all of them) who feel that they hadn't really "converted" until they changed rites.  

That is a point I can definitely see -- you have a long-bearded bishop visit one Sunday, smear oil on a bunch of you, then say, "congrats; you're Orthodox now!" while everything looks, smells, tastes, and sounds almost exactly the same as before.  Without a lot of catechism before chrismation, it's easy to slip into an identity crisis once you've been received.

That in mind, I still think its a wonderful idea to attempt to show the Orthodox Church's catholicity, even if it is only just now coming out of its infant stages and still with some 'bugs' to work out.

Well, I know of some ex-Episcopalians who were like that and some who support the WR strongly.  But I've also read some people who say that WR is a sort of "sop" or easing in for people until they can handle the "Real" EO and go all the way to Byzantine modes.  I think that they hope that WR will be a passing thing.   Then again, I was once told that ONLY Byzantine chant is acceptable to God for worship too.  Sorry, I don't buy it.

Interesting idea about an 'identity crisis'.  I wonder if there's any data on Byz or WR choices regarding cradle/long established Anglican vs folk who have not had previous or long experience with Western liturgical worship or people who have been travelling through several churches on their path.    

Speaking plainly, Pedro, and no offense is intended here, I personally cannot worship in Byzantine liturgies the way I do in Anglican/BCP/WR ones.  A character flaw on my part, perhaps, but I do not believe that only the Byz. is the way to worship God.

Respectfully,

Ebor
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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2004, 06:18:10 PM »


http://www.celticorthodoxy.org
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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2004, 06:48:10 PM »

"Liquid Bread" is good, and a gift of the Gracious Lord (... or "Laird"...),

BUT, anywho, Pedro, with regard to ancient Celtic reading material...

I HIGHLY ecommend the "Life of Saint Columba of Iona" by Saint Adomnan of Iona; there is a fine Penguin Classics edition of a modern Engish translation, with interesting introductory material and notes.

I trust that some of the earliest "Aaargh"-manifestations do not stem from the holy Saint's lives contained herein...

if so, kyrie eleison, and may Saint Columba (= + Columcille) pray for us! :^}



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« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2004, 03:03:07 PM »

But I've also read some people who say that WR is a sort of "sop" or easing in for people until they can handle the "Real" EO and go all the way to Byzantine modes.  I think that they hope that WR will be a passing thing.

Oh, please... Roll Eyes ...it may actually happen that the AWRV, in the long run, just doesn't have enough steam behind it to develop into something long-term.  If so, then, well, it'll be sad but true...they certainly DON'T need the help of certain "Byz-only" people who (seriously) harangue and persecute the WR folks into either closing or going Byz Rite (which happened in Abilene, TX).

Quote
Then again, I was once told that ONLY Byzantine chant is acceptable to God for worship too.  Sorry, I don't buy it.

Me neither.

Quote
I wonder if there's any data on Byz or WR choices regarding cradle/long established Anglican vs folk who have not had previous or long experience with Western liturgical worship or people who have been travelling through several churches on their path.

It'd probably take some doing and dedication, but I don't think such a thing's been compiled.  If one were to do it now, it'd be possible, seeing as how WRO is still relatively small...

Quote
Speaking plainly, Pedro, and no offense is intended here, I personally cannot worship in Byzantine liturgies the way I do in Anglican/BCP/WR ones.  A character flaw on my part, perhaps, but I do not believe that only the Byz. is the way to worship God.

No offense taken; you're preachin' to the choir here!  I actually was attending Anglican/Anglo-Catholic/Roman Catholic Masses (in that order) before becoming Orthodox, and when I DID convert, my only options in Tulsa were Byz Rite and (at the time, at least) I felt I had to "take the wrapping with the package," as it were, in order to join the Church, as I still preferred the (high) liturgical expressions of the West -- though I did admire the fact that Byz Rite didn't have the risk of being stuck in a low church-oriented, post Vat. II type service if I moved somewhere.  My reasons for worshipping in an OCA parish instead of the WR Antiochian one (which are both about 10 min. away) are 1) marital -- my wife MUCH prefers Byz to WR, whereas my preference is no longer nearly as strong -- and 2) (this is the main reason) pastoral -- I admire and respect the priest at St. Barbara (OCA) so much...seems to be a better fit than the WR priest here.

Peterfarrington -- GREAT link; been there several times.  Thanks.

Rustaveli -- Have read life of St. Columba; didn't know there was a Penguin version, though.  Thanks.
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« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2004, 04:09:37 PM »

Peterfarrington -- GREAT link; been there several times.  Thanks.

Hi

Its one of my sites.

Peter
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« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2004, 08:18:12 PM »

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I admire and respect the priest at St. Barbara (OCA) so much...seems to be a better fit than the WR priest here.

Have met and talked to the WR priest, Fr. Anthony, several times.  He is a wonderful priest.  But I must say I am partial to the ER and Fr. Basil myself.
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« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2004, 12:22:47 PM »

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Have met and talked to the WR priest, Fr. Anthony, several times.  He is a wonderful priest.  But I must say I am partial to the ER and Fr. Basil myself.

Yeah, Fr. Anthony's a good, very welcoming priest -- I go there for Evensong most every weekend. St. Peter's has been growing leaps and bounds these past few years (20 chrismations last Holy Saturday, and a family at Pentecost!) -- but I also feel more of a pastoral connection w/Fr. Basil, even if I don't really prefer ER, per se.

Happy name's day, BTW, Columcille!
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« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2004, 12:30:40 PM »

Thanks,

We have very good friends from here that are members there but I haven't talked to them in a while.  Is St. Peter's picking up a lot of fall out from the local Episcopal parishes??
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« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2004, 04:32:31 PM »

From what I hear from Fr. Antony, while the AWRV in general is picking up disaffected Episcopalians and Catholics (usually how the parishes get started), a large number seem to be coming from no religious affiliation whatsoever!  They are usually attracted through VBS, church school (St. Peter's does a home school co-op thing twice a week) -- things that make them known to their community.  The community is apparently responding!
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« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2004, 04:43:21 PM »

That's good to hear.  If St.Barbara's had not been there, I imagine that St. Peter's is where we would have gone.  I love the ER but the WR does have a beauty and holiness of its own that I have always appreciated.  We were traditionalist Anglo-Catholics so it would have been a good fit.
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« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2004, 04:56:49 PM »

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I love the ER but the WR does have a beauty and holiness of its own that I have always appreciated.

Amen!  Exactly how I feel!
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« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2004, 03:20:31 PM »

I'm generally not a big fan of WR as the only way I've ever seen it expressed was using Anglican liturgics and hymns, and I've never found those to be very inspiring to me.  I would be interested in knowing if any of the WR parishes have a Tridentine Mass type liturgy though.
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« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2004, 03:38:02 PM »

There's St. Gregory's in DC

That's the only one I know of right off the top of my head.  You can email the folks at westernorthodox.com and see if they know which other ones do (not all WR churches have websites of their own that tell you, unfortunately).
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« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2004, 03:40:08 PM »

I would be interested in knowing if any of the WR parishes have a Tridentine Mass type liturgy though.  

I have been told that the WR in France uses the Tridentine Mass.
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« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2004, 03:47:54 PM »

There's St. Gregory's in DC

Cool, I see they use the liturgy of St. Gregory which is almost identical to the Tridentine Mass. Being a Traditional Catholic, I would love to attend such a Liturgy! Sadly, my local WR parishes are all heavily Anglican, and use the Comon Book of Prayer along with traditional Anglican hyms.

You'd think all WR parishes would use the liturgy of St. Gregory, I mean the Comon Book of Prayer was't something used amoung the pre-schism Western Christians, it would only seem right that if the Orthodox Church wanted to restore the Western rite, they would actually use the liturgies of the pre-schism Western Church. Though I have heard ROCOR's WR parishes use pre-schism Western litrugies.
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« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2004, 03:56:30 PM »

Well, when we visited St. Gregory's, Long-time-past, when it was in a different place for an evensong like service, it sure was close to Anglican liturgics, and hymns.  

Ebor
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« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2004, 04:01:41 PM »

Well, Ben, St. Tikhon didn't seem to think that the BCP was beyond the pale and much of what was/is in the BCP is from earlier souces.  Cranmer didn't just make it all up out of whole cloth, and neither have the folk who worked at making updates (which has been done more then once.)  I can recommend books on the history of the BCP if interested.

Have you ever been to an Anglican/Episcopal service especially for a solemn occasion or feast?  I've heard of RC's saying that it's more like what they used to have in the RCC then is often the case now.

Ebor
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« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2004, 04:07:09 PM »

Ebor, I understand, but the BCP and the other Anglican services weren't around before the Great Schism, I am not saying they are totally un-Orthodox or that they don't have their roots in orthodox sources, it just seems to me that the WR should us the liturgies of the Western Church, like St. Gregory's, that was actually around when East and West were still one Church.
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« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2004, 04:13:29 PM »

A good point, Ben, and one that part of me agrees with.

Yet...the Church has always (though not as a whole, sadly), been mindful of liturgical development within different regions of the world, both in the East and the West, of long-living heterodox groups that, upon reunion with the Church, were allowed (for the most part) to keep their distinct ligurgical forms.  Such a development as Cranmer introduced into the English Church was certainly something new, though not wholly and necessarily heterodox...certainly not "unsalvageable" from either an RC or an EO pov.
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« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2004, 04:16:45 PM »

And St. Tikhon was willing to find ways to get the BCP to fit in, a "graft" on the tree, as it were.  

*Why* should only the pre-schism liturgies be used, according to your way of thinking?  Does translating them into other languages make them different/same? What about KJV English vs. more modern English (with the proviso that real scholars and lovers of the language do it and not some hacks) since for some Elizabethan English is more formal (but still not pre-schism).  What is the cut-off date for what's allowable and what not including music?

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« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2004, 04:18:08 PM »

Pedro, have you read "The Shape of the Liturgy" by Dix?

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« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2004, 04:27:48 PM »

I don't think there is anything wrong with using Anglican liturgies and prayers in for example Great Britain or parishes with all if not most converts from Anglicanism. But I think the Church should also not forget those pre-schism liturgies that are very wonderful and rich in history.
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« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2004, 04:50:40 PM »

Agreed, Ben.

Ebor -- Have read snippits from it, but no, not the whole thing.

Not even sure how old it (or, for that matter, Dix himself) is; is it public domain, or would I still have to shell out the cash for it?  It's supposed to be wonderful, from what I hear and the little I have read....
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« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2004, 08:03:46 PM »

Dix is not public domain yet.  According to bookfinder.com it was first put out in 1945 and there was a new printing in 2001. We got our copy from a nice used bookshop in Old Sarum some time back. (On-line book searches are wonderful.)

The pre-schism western liturgies would have to be revived and re-introduced and would (I think) be just as alien to some as the Byzantine if not more so and they would have to be translated, as I mentioned, since I don't think you'll get many people nowadays learning Langue d'Oc or Anglo-Saxon to worship in (except for the occasional nut like me Smiley ).  That used by the RC after Trent is post-schism after all (and post Reformation, comes to that)  

I wonder if there is any data about how many converts are former Anglicans and particularly in WR parishes.  Are there any WR parishes with a preponderance of ex-Presbyterians or Former Quakers etc etc.?  Frankly, from things I've read, a number are former Anglicans who would like to worship God in the way they know.  

Ebor
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« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2004, 08:07:02 PM »

Quote
That used by the RC after Trent is post-schism after all (and post Reformation, comes to that)  


True, but the Tridentine Mass is a coedification of the Liturgy of Pope Saint Gregory the Great, in fact the two are almost identical.
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« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2004, 08:28:25 PM »

You can get the Dix work from Eighth Day Press as well, if my memory serves.
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« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2004, 08:33:48 PM »

IIRC about 80% of Antiochian WROx are ex-Anglicans.

Of course early Roman Catholic services, Roman Rite or non, would be translated from Latin, not Langue d'Oc or Anglo-Saxon. St Patrick used Latin, never Gaelic, liturgically. (Which doubly makes sense as he wasn't Irish.)

The 'guts' of the Roman (Tridentine) Mass are amazingly the same from their earliest appearance - the Roman Canon is older than the two Byzantine Rite anaphor+ª - but like the Byzantine Liturgy it's a medi+ªval product that evolved.

The Roman Mass nearly disappeared before the Cluniac reform; it got a shot in the arm by hybridizing it with the Gallican Rite from France, which was prolix thanks to borrowings/crossover from the Orthodox. This is partly why the Roman Mass and the Byzantine have a similar Godward feel and somewhat resemble each other.
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« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2004, 09:40:07 PM »

IIRC about 80% of Antiochian WROx are ex-Anglicans.

That wouldn't surprise me if it's the case.  
Quote

Of course early Roman Catholic services, Roman Rite or non, would be translated from Latin, not Langue d'Oc or Anglo-Saxon. St Patrick used Latin, never Gaelic, liturgically. (Which doubly makes sense as he wasn't Irish.)

I *was* letting my writing get a bit carried away.  Smiley  I'll try to exert more control.  But there are prayers and gospels and other works in Anglo-Saxon, so it wasn't that the laity were praying in Latin all the time.

Quote
The 'guts' of the Roman (Tridentine) Mass are amazingly the same from their earliest appearance - the Roman Canon is older than the two Byzantine Rite anaphor+ª - but like the Byzantine Liturgy it's a medi+ªval product that evolved.

The Roman Mass nearly disappeared before the Cluniac reform; it got a shot in the arm by hybridizing it with the Gallican Rite from France, which was prolix thanks to borrowings/crossover from the Orthodox. This is partly why the Roman Mass and the Byzantine have a similar Godward feel and somewhat resemble each other.

Thank you for the overview, Serge.  You put it clearly.

Ebor
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« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2004, 06:43:54 PM »

Studying the religious life Celtic and other western pre-schism Christians is both interesting and instructive, I believe. However, I am one of those who find the 'jump' from that interest to a present day 'western' liturgical Orthodoxy raises a lot more questions than answers.

The life of any Church is organic and living. It is not a relic to be dryly drawn out. As any new to Orthodoxy finds there is so much to learn. This is best done from a living instructor and by becoming involved in the life of a local church.

Sadly, many glories of the west are now in great part lost to us. For me a western 'liturgical' Orthodoxy is a largely artificial construct.

What becomes clear in the studies is how much traditional comtemporary Orthodoxy has with pre-schism western Church life. Much has been lost over centuries and much added too, which is not compatible with Orthodox belief.

So I will study but any attempt to resurrect that has been lost is another proposition.
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