Orthodox Converts Converting to Catholicism

[Peter J]

OK, it is easy for Catholic apologists to poke fun at UNAM  SANCTAM and CANTATE DOMINO and say their teaching is irregular and that Peter had a momentary lapse of sanity.

I think, if you read my post more carefully, you'll see that I was neither poking fun at Cantate Domino nor claiming that Peter had a momentary lapse of sanity.

[Irish Hermit]

OK, it is easy for Catholic apologists to poke fun at UNAM  SANCTAM and CANTATE DOMINO and say their teaching is irregular and that Peter had a momentary lapse of sanity.

I think, if you read my post more carefully, you'll see that I was neither poking fun at Cantate Domino nor claiming that Peter had a momentary lapse of sanity.

Apologies.  That was a repeat of an older post and I ought to have edited the first sentences.  Nevertheless, the quote mine is kind of convincing of what has been Peter's consistent teaching through the august lips of his successors.   Do you know I am so old, so pre-Vatican II, that I remember the days when Italian newspapers would use the phrase "august lips" when reporting the Pontiff's words!   

[stashko]

Fr.. Hristos Voskrese ....Thank's I saved it in my word Document as well what you posted....


What Rob mention above.... Is this the reason many catholic's fear leaving the catholic Church ,due to fear of Damnations, because of the pronouncments of the popes.....I don't know if the Catholic Church preaches this in the present time . But many young may of heard this from older generation Catholics about leaving there Church....Can a Church Use Fear to keep it's Partitioners from Wandering under the threat of damnation....

[Peter J]

Fr.. Hristos Voskrese ....Thank's I saved it in my word Document as well what you posted....


What Rob mention above.... Is this the reason many catholic's fear leaving the catholic Church ,due to fear of Damnations, because of the pronouncments of the popes.....I don't know if the Catholic Church preaches this in the present time . But many young may of heard this from older generation Catholics about leaving there Church....Can a Church Use Fear to keep it's Partitioners from Wandering under the threat of damnation....

Good question ... but, to be fair, I've heard a number of Orthodox refer to ex-Orthodox as "apostates", whereas I've very rarely heard Catholics refer to ex-Catholics as "apostates".

[Robb]

Fr.. Hristos Voskrese ....Thank's I saved it in my word Document as well what you posted....


What Rob mention above.... Is this the reason many catholic's fear leaving the catholic Church ,due to fear of Damnations, because of the pronouncments of the popes.....I don't know if the Catholic Church preaches this in the present time . But many young may of heard this from older generation Catholics about leaving there Church....Can a Church Use Fear to keep it's Partitioners from Wandering under the threat of damnation....

Yes, this fear of damnation is a factor, for some anyway in not departing from the RCC.  However there is a much stronger cultural attachment that prevents many from leaving the Catholic Church, something which seems much stronger then it does with those in other Christian denominations.  This is why I could only compare the pull that the RCC has on her followers to that Islam or Judaism has on theirs. 
Its certainly not just "fear of damnation" that keeps people attached to Catholicism (Even if only nominally).  I highly doubt that most RC's even think on such terms, at least these days. 
The pull of Catholicism on the soul of an individual is something that, unless you were born into it It cannot be adequately described.

[Marc1152]

If I might address two things from this thread:

I was never disciplined in any way in either the OCA or the AOANA.  While in the AOANA my godfather was disciplined by Englewood, and a friend from my parish here in Memphis got a nasty letter from Englewood, but we could never figure out why I was not disciplined in any way by Englewood, other than the fact (or so we were told) that at one point Englewood thought that the Ochlophobist was written by my godfather and not by me.  In any event, I left both the OCA and the AOANA in good standing and was a member of GOArch in good standing until I left Orthodoxy.  Anyone who suggests anything otherwise can feel free to contact St. John's Orthodox Church in Memphis (AOANA) and ask them about my transfer of membership both to the AOANA and out of it.

Secondly, the church in the barrio is one of three RC parishes of about the same driving distance from my house.  For the first time in many years, I do not have to drive through or to a bourgeois neighborhood to get to church.  But that refreshment is all part of my usual affect.  Keep it real homey's.

For the first time in many years, I do not have to drive through or to a bourgeois neighborhood to get to church. 

Nice.   Obviously you've missed a sermon or two.

[elijahmaria]

If I might address two things from this thread:

I was never disciplined in any way in either the OCA or the AOANA.  While in the AOANA my godfather was disciplined by Englewood, and a friend from my parish here in Memphis got a nasty letter from Englewood, but we could never figure out why I was not disciplined in any way by Englewood, other than the fact (or so we were told) that at one point Englewood thought that the Ochlophobist was written by my godfather and not by me.  In any event, I left both the OCA and the AOANA in good standing and was a member of GOArch in good standing until I left Orthodoxy.  Anyone who suggests anything otherwise can feel free to contact St. John's Orthodox Church in Memphis (AOANA) and ask them about my transfer of membership both to the AOANA and out of it.

Secondly, the church in the barrio is one of three RC parishes of about the same driving distance from my house.  For the first time in many years, I do not have to drive through or to a bourgeois neighborhood to get to church.  But that refreshment is all part of my usual affect.  Keep it real homey's.

For the first time in many years, I do not have to drive through or to a bourgeois neighborhood to get to church. 

Nice.   Obviously you've missed a sermon or two.

Reverse class-consciousness [snobbery] is about as noxious as reverse racism and both equally prideful and arrogant... ...Kinda like the monk who kicks somebody's butt up a row so that they can be LAST in line.

[Maria]

Fr.. Hristos Voskrese ....Thank's I saved it in my word Document as well what you posted....


What Rob mention above.... Is this the reason many catholic's fear leaving the catholic Church ,due to fear of Damnations, because of the pronouncments of the popes.....I don't know if the Catholic Church preaches this in the present time . But many young may of heard this from older generation Catholics about leaving there Church....Can a Church Use Fear to keep it's Partitioners from Wandering under the threat of damnation....

Good question ... but, to be fair, I've heard a number of Orthodox refer to ex-Orthodox as "apostates", whereas I've very rarely heard Catholics refer to ex-Catholics as "apostates".

Where I live, there are a bunch of Opus Dei chapters. Some of my friends who attended Opus Dei meetings accused me of being apostate after I had become an Orthodox catechumen, so they contacted the San Diego based Catholic Answers. I received several phone calls from the staff at CA begging me to return to Catholicism as they feared for my salvation.

[Peter J]

Fr.. Hristos Voskrese ....Thank's I saved it in my word Document as well what you posted....


What Rob mention above.... Is this the reason many catholic's fear leaving the catholic Church ,due to fear of Damnations, because of the pronouncments of the popes.....I don't know if the Catholic Church preaches this in the present time . But many young may of heard this from older generation Catholics about leaving there Church....Can a Church Use Fear to keep it's Partitioners from Wandering under the threat of damnation....

Good question ... but, to be fair, I've heard a number of Orthodox refer to ex-Orthodox as "apostates", whereas I've very rarely heard Catholics refer to ex-Catholics as "apostates".

Where I live, there are a bunch of Opus Dei chapters. Some of my friends who attended Opus Dei meetings accused me of being apostate after I had become an Orthodox catechumen, so they contacted the San Diego based Catholic Answers. I received several phone calls from the staff at CA begging me to return to Catholicism as they feared for my salvation.

I'm sorry to hear that.

But, to be fair, the fact that those friends -- the ones who called you an apostate -- were interested in Opus Dei doesn't mean they represent Opus Dei's positions.

[blessedbeggar]

There is a side to these converting converts that I haven't seen, and would like to add from my own experience. Those of us who would be Orthodox if it were an available option, and so instead choose to join the Latin tradition. If any of my posts have been read, I and my family had been working for months to bring an Orthodox mission to my area. We were pentecostal prior to looking into the RCC, and eventually chose Orthodoxy. The parish we worked with was amazing, and I love each and everyone of them. We had began a bi-monthly Reader's Service with one of the members from the parish making the long drive to our home. However, over the months, as less and less people came to the service's, we realized that Orthodoxy was not gaining a foothold in our area. We have since decided to end our inquiry for the present, and begin attending the local Catholic church here in our community. We love the Orthodox faith, but the distance, as well as many personal matters, have made it impossible at this time to continue. I post this to say that not all who eventually leave Orthodoxy do so due to theological issues or fear, but due to the fact that living outside an Orthodox community makes learning of the faith and living it a burden that many cannot handle. I love the Catholic faith as well, as the only two Faiths to truly have Apostolic Succession, I don't believe I am giving up anything..but am moving toward my greatest opportunity to joining the True Body of Christ in Sacramental union. I'll not give the East and West two-lung cliche...but simply say that God has made a way for us to still partake of the Ancient Mystery, though our hearts are broken for the loss of the mission.

[Michał]

I love the Catholic faith as well, as the only two Faiths to truly have Apostolic Succession . . .

If by the two you mean the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, then what about the Oriental Orthodox Church and the Assyrian Church of the East? Why do you think they do not truly have Apostolic Succession?

[blessedbeggar]

I love the Catholic faith as well, as the only two Faiths to truly have Apostolic Succession . . .

If by the two you mean the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, then what about the Oriental Orthodox Church and the Assyrian Church of the East? Why do you think they do not truly have Apostolic Succession?

I did not mean that to be polemic, I am not very familiar with either of the other Churches, are they not in Communion with Rome or the EOC? Please forgive my ignorance of them and their claims of Apostolic Succession. I did not mean to offend anyone with that statement, and I do apologize.

[Peter J]

I love the Catholic faith as well, as the only two Faiths to truly have Apostolic Succession . . .

If by the two you mean the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, then what about the Oriental Orthodox Church and the Assyrian Church of the East? Why do you think they do not truly have Apostolic Succession?

I did not mean that to be polemic, I am not very familiar with either of the other Churches, are they not in Communion with Rome or the EOC? Please forgive my ignorance of them and their claims of Apostolic Succession. I did not mean to offend anyone with that statement, and I do apologize.

I, too, noticed your statement about "the only two Faiths to truly have Apostolic Succession". I figured you weren't counting small groups like the PNCC and the ACoE. (And the Oriental Orthodox are often included when people say "the Orthodox".)

[blessedbeggar]

Peter, you are correct. I unfortunately did lump the Oriental Orthodox Church alongside the EOC. I apologize for that. I googled both to get a quick idea of them, and it appears that the ACoE left the Church around 1550?? I will admit that I don't have any direct knowledge or any experience with either church, as being from the Appalachians in the US doesn't afford much variety in local faith communities. In all honesty, until I left the pentecostal Church of God denomination in search of the true ancient faith, I didn't even know that there was another outside Catholicism. I discovered Orthodoxy while studying for the roots of Christianity. I apologize if anyone was offended by my ignorance of their church, no intention was meant. But I will ask...if Apostolic Succession is indeed in all these churches...why all the disunity?

[Michał]

. . . it appears that the ACoE left the Church around 1550??

You mean around 1550 years ago? Yes.

[TristanCross]

It's mostly authority issues.

The Pope of the Roman Catholic Church started advancing his personal authority over the rest of the Church (including the other Patriarchs). This led to the changing of the Nicene Creed, with the Pope adding the word "filioque" (meaning "and from the Son"). The Roman Creed now reads, "Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum, et vivificantem: qui ex Patre Filioque procedit" ("And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and giver of life, who from the Father and the Son proceeds").

Oriental Orthodox Christians deny the authority of the Council of Chalcedon. For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Chalcedon and http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/east_orth.aspx

It appears that the Assyrian Church of the East also disagrees with the Council of Chalcedon.

[mike]

It appears that the Assyrian Church of the East also disagrees with the Council of Chalcedon.

You should google 431

[Michał]

It appears that the Assyrian Church of the East also disagrees with the Council of Chalcedon.

They don't accept it because they didn't take part in it, but generally speaking, they like its theological pronouncements.

[TristanCross]

It appears that the Assyrian Church of the East also disagrees with the Council of Chalcedon.

You should google 431

So, they broke after the Council of Ephesus? Why's that?

[NicholasMyra]

It appears that the Assyrian Church of the East also disagrees with the Council of Chalcedon.

You should google 431

So, they broke after the Council of Ephesus? Why's that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorian_Schism

[TristanCross]

It appears that the Assyrian Church of the East also disagrees with the Council of Chalcedon.

You should google 431

So, they broke after the Council of Ephesus? Why's that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorian_Schism

Oooooh

[Peter J]

Peter, you are correct. I unfortunately did lump the Oriental Orthodox Church alongside the EOC. I apologize for that.

Don't be too hard on yourself ...


From the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops:

...
For our fellow Christians
We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ's prayer for us "that they may all be one" (Jn 17:21).

Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 § 4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 § 3).

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/mass/communion.shtml

Notice that in that list they just say "the Orthodox Churches" rather than separately mentioning EO and OO.

[Aristobolus]

Many here at one time or another may have read the Ochlophobist blog which I read periodically but is now closed.  The author had an interesting farewell post which in it he mentioned he was becoming Catholic and I thought had some fairly interesting comments in it.  I was curious if there have been other notable Orthodox converts who then converted to Catholicism and what their reasons were for doing so.  There was Fr. John Mack who I know converted a few years ago.

The author of the Western Rite blog http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/ converted (reverted?) to the Roman Catholic Church in the last year or two.  Not much has been said on this, I found out by happenstance.  But this does explain why nothing has been added since 2009 to this blog.

[Ortho_cat]

I have seen a couple of commenters say that Och is reverting. If that is the case, I can easily see how someone who converted to Catholicism in the first place decided to return to it, especially considering how disgusted he was with American Orthodoxy.

And he's happier with american Catholicism? What was his major beef I wonder...probably jurisdictionalism or ethnocentrism.

[dzheremi]

Hahaha. I've never heard of this guy's blog, but if what's in this thread is indicative of it, I'm truly sad that I missed it. That "barrio" comment had me in stitches. Very glad I found this thread. I needed a laugh.

That said, the search for "authenticity" (~ no 'bourgeois' white people?) in all things, when extended into religion, always seems to produce this kind of thing. The highs are higher and the lows are lower, given how much of your own ego is on the line. You found THE CHURCH, then found out it wasn't "authentic" in the way you'd like it to be, so now you found THE CHURCH somewhere else that more closely matches what you think an "authentic" church should look like. It's not about the church; it's about you and the obsession with real religion (or politics/music/fashion/ice cream/whatever). No doubt I've been guilty of this same mindset before (maybe still am, I don't know), but I hope I've been slow and deliberate enough in approaching the Orthodox church that I've burned through this kind of anticipation ahead of actually attending any liturgies. (It'd be kind of hard not to, since my last Catholic Mass was attended in July of 2009, but my first Coptic liturgy not until August of this year. By the time I got there, it was more "Finally, I can stop wondering about this and start learning about it first-hand" than "Finally -- the most authentic, truest church ever!")

I have never heard of any prominent American or other Orthodox person converting to Catholicism. Perhaps more who are prominent in their own minds, but that's internet fame for ya. Anytime a convert from Orthodoxy would show up on any of the Catholic sites I used to follow, they'd sort of get the rock star or VIP treatment. I remember that when one of the Assyrian Church of the East parishes united with Rome a few years ago, RCs behaved like it was the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy or something. I tried to point out that this was probably more of an indication of the dire straits of the ACoE than of the inherent strength in Roman theological positions (they've got us all beat in pure numbers, that's for sure), but was mostly ignored or told to stop being a wet blanket. Similarly, I have known people who take the words of James Likoudis (probably the most famous EO-turned-RC, in terms of visibility if not weight of opinion) as though they were not only gospel, but also somehow represent faithfully the position of the EO.

In other words, wherever you look, there's a whole lot of wishful thinking going on...

[Andrew Crook]

It's not about the church; it's about you and the obsession with real religion (or politics/music/fashion/ice cream/whatever).

I think you smacked it on the head Dzheremi.  Some of us have an obsessive need to always be right, especially to be right with God.  I mean who knows, we could always go to Hell.. and that is scary to some people (such as myself).  In a family split, there's always bound to be misunderstandings on both sides.  Sometimes one is deliberately making up lies, other times it's simply due to a lack of communication.  But more often than not, both sides seem to misunderstand each other.. or have misconceptions about each other for whatever reason.  I despise the Protestant-oriented Masses.. but my Anglo-Saxon roots still long for the fullness of that Western tradition.  

  However given our current understandings, our estimates of going to Heaven looks like a high possibility no matter what communion (Roman/EC/OC or EO/OO).  So I suppose really we shouldn't worry about it... we're all schismatics (in someone's eyes) anyways.. and somebody's a heretic to somebody else..

[Joseph Hazen]

It's not about the church; it's about you and the obsession with real religion (or politics/music/fashion/ice cream/whatever).

Brilliant, as usual Jeremy, but unfortunately you've been beat by a few years  : C. S. Lewis says almost the same thing in Screwtape Letters:

"Males are best turned into gluttons with the help of their vanity. They ought to be made to think themselves very knowing about food, to pique themselves on having found the only restaurant in the town where steaks are really "properly" cooked. What begins as vanity can then be gradually turned into habit. But, however you approach it, the great thing is to bring him into the state in which the denial of any one indulgence—it matters not which, champagne or tea, sole colbert or cigarettes—"puts him out", for then his charity, justice, and obedience are all at your mercy."

Of course here he's talking about food, but the same philosophy can be applied to Churches, in a way beyond searching for doctrinal purity and instead searching for an idealized "real" church. Screwtape also says some interesting things about parishes that I think apply here:

"In the first place the parochial organisation should always be attacked, because, being a unity of place and not of likings, it brings people of different classes and psychology together in the kind of unity the Enemy desires. The congregational principle, on the other hand, makes each church into a kind of club, and finally, if all goes well, into a coterie or faction. In the second place, the search for a "suitable" church makes the man a critic where the Enemy wants him to be a pupil. What He wants of the layman in church is an attitude which may, indeed, be critical in the sense of rejecting what is false or unhelpful, but which is wholly uncritical in the sense that it does not appraise—does not waste time in thinking about what it rejects, but lays itself open in uncommenting, humble receptivity to any nourishment that is going. (You see how grovelling, how unspiritual, how irredeemably vulgar He is!) This attitude, especially during sermons, creates the condition (most hostile to our whole policy) in which platitudes can become really audible to a human soul. There is hardly any sermon, or any book, which may not be dangerous to us if it is received in this temper. So pray bestir yourself and send this fool the round of the neighbouring churches as soon as possible. Your record up to date has not given us much satisfaction."

Anytime we agree with Screwtape, we aught to take a look at ourselves.

[dzheremi]

Oh, I didn't think it was something I'd thought up anyway (I was thinking more about the impulse described by Fr. Seraphim Rose's "essentialism", which is more or less the same obsession expressed in a slightly different way), but thanks so much for that passage. I've never read "Screwtape Letters", so I wasn't aware of it, but I agree with what you've posted.

[ialmisry]

It appears that the Assyrian Church of the East also disagrees with the Council of Chalcedon.

They don't accept it because they didn't take part in it, but generally speaking, they like its theological pronouncements.

Like the anathemas against Nestorius?

[Joseph Hazen]

Oh, I didn't think it was something I'd thought up anyway (I was thinking more about the impulse described by Fr. Seraphim Rose's "essentialism", which is more or less the same obsession expressed in a slightly different way), but thanks so much for that passage. I've never read "Screwtape Letters", so I wasn't aware of it, but I agree with what you've posted.

I figured you didn't, but I thought the passage pertinent and was just connecting it to what you'd said.

For those who might not know, The Screwtape Letters are fictional letters C. S. Lewis wrote as if a senior demon is giving his 'nephew' tips on tempting a soul to damnation. Thus, everything in the book is written in negative - what we'd consider good, Screwtape labels evil, he calls God "The Enemy" and Satan "Our Father Below". He makes references to "The Lowerarchy" and praises vice. Lewis never claims he is presenting an accurate portrayal of hell (he denies it actually) but it is an interesting read to think about the subtle ways in which the adversary tries to ensnare us, giving good insight into our own nature and some revealing ways in which we don't normally think demons would operate, but do.

Thus, if we're agreeing with Screwtape (and it seems as though the gentleman discussed earlier in this thread is) we should take a very hard look at our own actions.

[KShaft]

If you've never been a Catholic before, then you could never understand the enormous magnetic hold which this Church has over your lives (The closest thing that could perhaps compare to this in the religious world would be the relationship between Jews and Judaism or, especially Islam and Muslims.  All other Churches have some pull that they excessive on their flocks and the conscious of their followers, but nothing at all like the magnitude that the RCC exhorts on its adherents, and one time adherents.  I have no idea what causes this, whitier or not it has something to do with the powerful, centralized force which is the Vatican?  The predominating of Catholic schools and the impact that receiving an education in those schools has on a person?  Or just the very culture that is associated with the RCC and the imprint that the Church has made upon the various cultures that it helped to shape and dominate for so many centuries. 

Whatever the reasons may be, cultural, or even psychological, the RCC is a powerful force in the lives of its members, no matter how nominal or lapsed they may be and to break away from her is not an easy thing to master.  Most of the ex Catholics I know seem to either have a burning, intense hatred (At least in public) for the Church and go to great lengths to publically ridicule and cast aspersions on her, or they kind of have a "I'm okay, your okay" mentality towards the Church and whatever religion they are in now.  These represent two differencing ways of, from a psychological perspective dealing with a force which has exerted strong dominance over the individual and which that individual seeks to break away from (The same examples can be used for people who are estranged from their parents, they either try to developer a hatred for them or just ignore them, while still speaking somewhat fondly of past memories).

Some may find it hard to grasp the things that I speak of, but if you are a Catholic, or an ex Catholic then you know exactly where I'm coming from and that the words I write are true.  We hear so much of those who leave the RCC and go over to other religions, but I can't help wondering how many of these ex Catholics eventually end up coming back to the RCC (Or will do so before their death)?  It's not easy leaving the RCC.  In a way its just easier to live with her, even as a nominal member then abandon her so readily and try to pioneer a new spiritual world in another religion.

Just my two cents on this matter.

I know its a bit late but I totally agree with this. There are a multitude of reasons I can think of as to why this is the case from my own experience so YMMV. This has to do pertaining to a 'conversion' to Orthodoxy. I have grown to prefer the Byzantine Liturgy over even the EF mass, let alone the NO which   even done in the most orthodox and reverent manner possible, seems impossibly banal. Eastern Catholic parishes just look and feel odd inside, almost barren. The music for the Ruthenian Liturgy is very lovely and sometimes I prefer it to the Russian/OCA parish I go to (though not to a MP Russian parish (ROCOR)) but the spirituality is lacking, almost always less solemn. The Melkites are typically a bit closer to the ideal but they arent perfect and its hard to put a finger on what Im thinking or feeling.  So in short I prefer going to Orthodox Liturgies all around. Doubts linger in my mind to take the profession of faith however.  Why mohamedism didnt get to the West, nor communism much latter, the more beautiful art, liturature, and especially music (Liturgical or non Liturgical 'church' music and even secular music) all developed in the west gives me pause. The better higher learning institutions were developed in the west (Oxford for instance started out as a Benedictine Monastery). Not to mention Mathew 16 which clearly makes Peter the rock by Christ changing his name to Rock for crying out loud not his confession. But then what of the Filioque? Pope Leo the (??) who was theologically very gifted putting up silver plaques in St. Peter's Basilica the creed without the Filioque, while the dumb ass Charlemagne saying it needs to be in there despite not one but two ecumenical councils saying it doesnt belong (1st and 8th I believe). The sign of the cross  backwards, unmarried priests, indulgences, new doctrines produced 1800 years after the Ascension of Christ... protestants... etc... etc... Now Im not sure these are heretical(except for the protastants) per se but they are not Orthodox.

It is very confusing and to me no clear winner.  Part of a solace I have is that I believe the Orthodox Church to be part of the Catholic Church as the Roman Catholic church is PART of the Catholic Church. Perhaps the more ancient Catholic Church. So yes the Catholic church does have quite a hold on one to be sure...

[ialmisry]

Inasmuch as Och claims to be a communist and Communism and Christianity are diametrically opposed philosophies, I think he's really better of going to the RC.  Half that Church has been taken over by the marxists, so he'll feel much more at  home there.

I am a sort of a Communist, Orthodox of Orthodox too, quite careless religiously

Careless enough to hang around on internet forums telling everyone else why they should be careless too. 

I do not take any of this idle talk that seriously. It's like others like talking about baseball  or beer.

I defy you to find someone who regularly participates in an internet forum about baseball and beer, and who is not deeply interested in the subject.

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