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Author Topic: Orthodox Converts Converting to Catholicism  (Read 15142 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 02, 2011, 08:48:48 AM »

Many here at one time or another may have read the Ochlophobist blog which I read periodically but is now closed.  The author had an interesting farewell post which in it he mentioned he was becoming Catholic and I thought had some fairly interesting comments in it.  I was curious if there have been other notable Orthodox converts who then converted to Catholicism and what their reasons were for doing so.  There was Fr. John Mack who I know converted a few years ago.
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2011, 09:17:31 AM »

Boris I of Bulgaria comes to mind, though I'm not sure whether he actually converted to Rome (or just showed interest), before swinging back towards Constantinople. And I suppose this isn't what you meant when you started the thread.  angel He is the only "notable" person I could think of, though.
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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2011, 09:19:19 AM »

I have seen a couple of commenters say that Och is reverting. If that is the case, I can easily see how someone who converted to Catholicism in the first place decided to return to it, especially considering how disgusted he was with American Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2011, 09:21:26 AM »

Grand Duke Vitaut he was jumping from the RC to the EO and backwards several times. King Daniel of Galicia also seems to have jumped a few times.
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2011, 09:24:09 AM »

I was more thinking of modern era American converts.  Grin
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2011, 09:32:48 AM »

Princess Sofia of Greece and Denmark converted when she married King Juan Carlos of Spain.
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2011, 09:33:38 AM »

Boris I of Bulgaria comes to mind, though I'm not sure whether he actually converted to Rome (or just showed interest), before swinging back towards Constantinople. And I suppose this isn't what you meant when you started the thread.  angel He is the only "notable" person I could think of, though.

I'm not sure if his case counts, because Rome was still Orthodox then.

By the way today is his feast day Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2011, 09:35:42 AM »

Catherine Doherty, whose cause is being considered for canonization in the Catholic Church, was a Russian Orthodox convert.

EDIT: I realize both of my examples are cradles. I expect it will be a little easier to find converts who convert again in the next 10 years, as people are getting pretty deft at changing religions.
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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2011, 09:50:22 AM »

Boris I of Bulgaria comes to mind, though I'm not sure whether he actually converted to Rome (or just showed interest), before swinging back towards Constantinople. And I suppose this isn't what you meant when you started the thread.  angel He is the only "notable" person I could think of, though.

I'm not sure if his case counts, because Rome was still Orthodox then.

By the way today is his feast day Smiley

I didn't know that, interesting coincidence, but as you say, Rome was Orthodox/Catholic then anyway... and like AMM said, not really what he was asking about anyway Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2011, 09:55:43 AM »

Many here at one time or another may have read the Ochlophobist blog which I read periodically but is now closed.  The author had an interesting farewell post which in it he mentioned he was becoming Catholic and I thought had some fairly interesting comments in it.

Blog link please.
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2011, 11:24:14 AM »

Many here at one time or another may have read the Ochlophobist blog which I read periodically but is now closed.  The author had an interesting farewell post which in it he mentioned he was becoming Catholic and I thought had some fairly interesting comments in it.

Blog link please.

Couldn't link directly, but this may be of interest... http://ad-orientem.blogspot.com/2011/04/farewell-ochlophobist-as-he-closes-his.html
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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2011, 12:12:49 PM »

This bizarre step can probably be explained by reading the blog of  Arturo Vasquez, a proudly and decidedly cultural/ nominal/ cafeteria RC whom Och attempted to copy for the Orthodox world. You can be assured he did not make the switch because he cares about the dogma of the RCC, but because he wants to be in a messy "old world" church where he can indulge his Marxist fantasizing while still playing around with folksy Christian trinkets. Attempting to be an actual pious Christian is, in his view, simply a hopeless affectation; it's much more worthwhile to be apathetic, nominal, and therefore more authentic- since this doesn't work well if your religion isn't widely followed where you live, it makes more sense to switch to a more established and popular religion where you can join large numbers of other people in not caring about your religion.

What we have here is a very strange expression of Christian hipsterism. The posturing is so contorted and contrived that I doubt it could ever involve more than a tiny handful of people.
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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2011, 12:34:49 PM »

You can be assured he did [this] because he wants to be in a messy "old world" church where he can indulge his...fantasizing while still playing around with folksy Christian trinkets.

Crap, am I not allowed to do this?

I think that brown scapulars are a pretty neat thing and would really add to my hipster eliteness.
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« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2011, 12:39:45 PM »

You can be assured he did [this] because he wants to be in a messy "old world" church where he can indulge his...fantasizing while still playing around with folksy Christian trinkets.

Crap, am I not allowed to do this?

Fantasizing about the Tsar returning on a gleaming white horse is OK   Wink
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« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2011, 12:40:44 PM »

What's the word for it? Non-conformist conformism?
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« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2011, 01:02:08 PM »

Many here at one time or another may have read the Ochlophobist blog which I read periodically but is now closed.  The author had an interesting farewell post which in it he mentioned he was becoming Catholic and I thought had some fairly interesting comments in it.  I was curious if there have been other notable Orthodox converts who then converted to Catholicism and what their reasons were for doing so.  There was Fr. John Mack who I know converted a few years ago.

What on earth would make you want to leave the church?  Shocked
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« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2011, 01:20:17 PM »

Blog link please.

http://byebyeochlophobist.blogspot.com
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« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2011, 01:35:49 PM »

Inasmuch as Och claims to be a communist and Communism and Christianity are diametrically opposed philosophies, I think he's really better of going to the RC.  Half that Church has been taken over by the marxists, so he'll feel much more at  home there.
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« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2011, 01:37:43 PM »

There was Fr. John Mack who I know converted a few years ago.

This was not theological, it was practical. He was twice defrocked in Orthodoxy, once in the Antiochian church and once in the Romanian OCA I believe, both times for causing personal issues with families in his congregations (no sexual abuse, just to be clear).

When he had no new places left to run in Orthodoxy, he decided to be a Byzantine Catholic priest in Sugar Creek, MO. He converted so that he could remain a priest. He was actually serving the one time I attended their congregation in inquiry about Eastern Catholicism during my journey into Orthodoxy. He is an outstanding homilist. At that time they were making plans to have him replace the long standing priest there so that he could return back to the East coast and be around family. Anyway, they found out Mr. Mack before too long and suspended him. I have no idea what he is up to now; he has totally dropped off the radar. He might still live in the Kansas City metro for all that I know.
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« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2011, 01:48:47 PM »

Inasmuch as Och claims to be a communist and Communism and Christianity are diametrically opposed philosophies, I think he's really better of going to the RC.  Half that Church has been taken over by the marxists, so he'll feel much more at  home there.
I am a sort of a Communist, Orthodox of Orthodox too, quite careless religiously and I'm not going anywhere. Definitely. And I like the ochlophobist a lot.  Had he been living in an Orthodox land he would have stayed, since he would have hardly stuck out. But the over-pious & small demographics of former  evangelical turned fathers- quoting- orthodox monarchists and libertarians  wasn't home for him.
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« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2011, 01:53:37 PM »

Inasmuch as Och claims to be a communist and Communism and Christianity are diametrically opposed philosophies, I think he's really better of going to the RC.  Half that Church has been taken over by the marxists, so he'll feel much more at  home there.
I am a sort of a Communist, Orthodox of Orthodox too, quite careless religiously

Careless enough to hang around on internet forums telling everyone else why they should be careless too.  Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2011, 01:55:36 PM »

Inasmuch as Och claims to be a communist and Communism and Christianity are diametrically opposed philosophies, I think he's really better of going to the RC.  Half that Church has been taken over by the marxists, so he'll feel much more at  home there.
I am a sort of a Communist, Orthodox of Orthodox too, quite careless religiously

Careless enough to hang around on internet forums telling everyone else why they should be careless too.  Smiley
I do not take any of this idle talk that seriously. It's like others like talking about baseball  or beer.
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« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2011, 01:59:14 PM »

Inasmuch as Och claims to be a communist and Communism and Christianity are diametrically opposed philosophies, I think he's really better of going to the RC.  Half that Church has been taken over by the marxists, so he'll feel much more at  home there.
I am a sort of a Communist, Orthodox of Orthodox too, quite careless religiously

Careless enough to hang around on internet forums telling everyone else why they should be careless too.  Smiley
I do not take any of this idle talk that seriously. It's like others like talking about baseball  or beer.

I defy you to find someone who regularly participates in an internet forum about baseball and beer, and who is not deeply interested in the subject.
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« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2011, 02:00:54 PM »


"I can go to Mass in the barrio and completely forget about neo-Caths."

Ah, yes, the barrio, where the real people dwell. Hilarious.
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« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2011, 02:01:32 PM »

It interests me, but from a cultural/sociological and historical perspective. I'm quite agnostic and uninterested too, when it comes to theological/dogmatic stuff.
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« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2011, 02:05:30 PM »

What would piss off most pious folk is that there is absolutely nothing I have to do in order to get an Orthodox burial, should I die in the state I am now, besides payment of some cash to the priests, chanters and sacristan. I mean that would happen in the ROC.  It's probably totally different in formerly EOC or HOOM parishes.
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« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2011, 02:08:24 PM »

Behold, the non-wannabe wannabe.
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« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2011, 02:09:15 PM »

I'm quite agnostic and uninterested too, when it comes to theological/dogmatic stuff.

Don't worry, I totally believe you.
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« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2011, 02:12:50 PM »

Behold, the non-wannabe wannabe.
I won't disagree with you:there is some wannabe attitude here, yet it's nothing that would stand out, back home (I am there, actually, right now). Except that is more rationalized and more verbalized. That's where the "wannabe" thing is. Well, it is what it is.
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« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2011, 02:20:16 PM »

Quote
What on earth would make you want to leave the church?

It's not me in question, but I think it was noted it wasn't the persistent scandals.  My feeling in reading through the posts that I have is its a combination of competing, self-constructed visions of American Orthodoxy and liturgical fetishization.
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« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2011, 02:22:57 PM »

...it's nothing that would stand out, back home (I am there, actually, right now).

Are you really Back Home? Have you knocked up any drunken nuns yet, and sent photos back to shock pious evangelical convertsky?
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« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2011, 02:25:33 PM »

Quote
What on earth would make you want to leave the church?

It's not me in question, but I think it was noted it wasn't the persistent scandals.  My feeling in reading through the posts that I have is its a combination of competing, self-constructed visions of American Orthodoxy and liturgical fetishization.

We truly do have to move beyond the 'I'm more Orthodox than you because I do (fill in the blank).' 

Had I gone on to the priesthood, I think I would have made all would be converts and high school seniors memorize the text of the Publican and the Pharisee and the Last Judgment and write an essay on them both.
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« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2011, 02:29:36 PM »

...it's nothing that would stand out, back home (I am there, actually, right now).

Are you really Back Home? Have you knocked up any drunken nuns yet, and sent photos back to shock pious evangelical convertsky?
You see I have nothing against evangelicals that become Orthodox, leaving behind Protestant posturing and stuff. I cannot stand those that wanna recycle that as if there was anything worth saving in it and "use it in the Church". And such is often the case.
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« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2011, 02:34:58 PM »

What would piss off most pious folk is that there is absolutely nothing I have to do in order to get an Orthodox burial, should I die in the state I am now,
That might piss off those who are self righteous, but I doubt the truly pious would be bothered by something like that. Judge not and all that.
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« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2011, 02:37:39 PM »

Quote
What on earth would make you want to leave the church?

It's not me in question, but I think it was noted it wasn't the persistent scandals.  My feeling in reading through the posts that I have is its a combination of competing, self-constructed visions of American Orthodoxy and liturgical fetishization.

We truly do have to move beyond the 'I'm more Orthodox than you because I do (fill in the blank).' 

Had I gone on to the priesthood, I think I would have made all would be converts and high school seniors memorize the text of the Publican and the Pharisee and the Last Judgment and write an essay on them both.

"We truly do have to move beyond the 'I'm more Orthodox than you because I do (fill in the blank).'" Is that really a big issue? Ive never noticed it.
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« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2011, 02:38:09 PM »

Quote
What on earth would make you want to leave the church?

It's not me in question, but I think it was noted it wasn't the persistent scandals.  My feeling in reading through the posts that I have is its a combination of competing, self-constructed visions of American Orthodoxy and liturgical fetishization.

I was just stating it in general.  Tongue
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« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2011, 02:39:31 PM »

...it's nothing that would stand out, back home (I am there, actually, right now).

Are you really Back Home? Have you knocked up any drunken nuns yet, and sent photos back to shock pious evangelical convertsky?
You see I have nothing against evangelicals that become Orthodox, leaving behind Protestant posturing and stuff. I cannot stand those that wanna recycle that as if there was anything worth saving in it and "use it in the Church". And such is often the case.
I like you.
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« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2011, 09:41:07 PM »


"I can go to Mass in the barrio and completely forget about neo-Caths."

Ah, yes, the barrio, where the real people dwell. Hilarious.
Cheesy I bursted out laughing when I saw this.

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« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2011, 09:53:57 PM »

Many here at one time or another may have read the Ochlophobist blog which I read periodically but is now closed.  The author had an interesting farewell post which in it he mentioned he was becoming Catholic and I thought had some fairly interesting comments in it.  I was curious if there have been other notable Orthodox converts who then converted to Catholicism and what their reasons were for doing so.  There was Fr. John Mack who I know converted a few years ago.

Father John Mack too?

Father David Anderson converted to Eastern Catholicism during that Northern California debacle with Metropolitan Philip more than 10 years ago.
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« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2011, 11:53:07 PM »

If I might address two things from this thread:

I was never disciplined in any way in either the OCA or the AOANA.  While in the AOANA my godfather was disciplined by Englewood, and a friend from my parish here in Memphis got a nasty letter from Englewood, but we could never figure out why I was not disciplined in any way by Englewood, other than the fact (or so we were told) that at one point Englewood thought that the Ochlophobist was written by my godfather and not by me.  In any event, I left both the OCA and the AOANA in good standing and was a member of GOArch in good standing until I left Orthodoxy.  Anyone who suggests anything otherwise can feel free to contact St. John's Orthodox Church in Memphis (AOANA) and ask them about my transfer of membership both to the AOANA and out of it.

Secondly, the church in the barrio is one of three RC parishes of about the same driving distance from my house.  For the first time in many years, I do not have to drive through or to a bourgeois neighborhood to get to church.  But that refreshment is all part of my usual affect.  Keep it real homey's.
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« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2011, 11:59:04 PM »

This bizarre step can probably be explained by reading the blog of  Arturo Vasquez, a proudly and decidedly cultural/ nominal/ cafeteria RC whom Och attempted to copy for the Orthodox world. You can be assured he did not make the switch because he cares about the dogma of the RCC, but because he wants to be in a messy "old world" church where he can indulge his Marxist fantasizing while still playing around with folksy Christian trinkets. Attempting to be an actual pious Christian is, in his view, simply a hopeless affectation; it's much more worthwhile to be apathetic, nominal, and therefore more authentic- since this doesn't work well if your religion isn't widely followed where you live, it makes more sense to switch to a more established and popular religion where you can join large numbers of other people in not caring about your religion.

What we have here is a very strange expression of Christian hipsterism. The posturing is so contorted and contrived that I doubt it could ever involve more than a tiny handful of people.

Amen! Thank you! That more people read this.
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« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2011, 12:29:54 AM »

This bizarre step can probably be explained by reading the blog of  Arturo Vasquez, a proudly and decidedly cultural/ nominal/ cafeteria RC whom Och attempted to copy for the Orthodox world. You can be assured he did not make the switch because he cares about the dogma of the RCC, but because he wants to be in a messy "old world" church where he can indulge his Marxist fantasizing while still playing around with folksy Christian trinkets. Attempting to be an actual pious Christian is, in his view, simply a hopeless affectation; it's much more worthwhile to be apathetic, nominal, and therefore more authentic- since this doesn't work well if your religion isn't widely followed where you live, it makes more sense to switch to a more established and popular religion where you can join large numbers of other people in not caring about your religion.

What we have here is a very strange expression of Christian hipsterism. The posturing is so contorted and contrived that I doubt it could ever involve more than a tiny handful of people.

Amen! Thank you! That more people read this.

Unfortunately, I noticed this strange kind of Christianity in the Russian Catholic Church I visited before becoming Orthodox.
It was all about loudly proclaiming that one was a Catholic without really believing in it.
All the moves were there (signs of the cross and prostrations), but they appeared to be deluded. Prelest?

Lord have mercy.
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Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Justin Kissel
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« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2011, 12:43:42 AM »

Maybe it's just me... but hasn't the appearance and post by ochlophobist brought home the realization that some of this talk is really improper, like we're taking uncharitable and unnecessary shots at people? I don't think this kind of discussion was really where the thread had to go based on the question(s) in the original post, or where the thread should have gone... I apologize for judging, and I realise that I am judging, but still... Huh  Undecided 
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« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2011, 12:45:29 AM »

Maybe it's just me... but hasn't the appearance and post by ochlophobist brought home the realization that some of this talk is really improper, like we're taking uncharitable and unnecessary shots at people? I don't think this kind of discussion was really where the thread had to go based on the question(s) in the original post, or where the thread should have gone... I apologize for judging, and I realise that I am judging, but still... Huh  Undecided 

If somebody want to broadcast all of their personal business in public, then it's likely to get a public response.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2011, 12:49:23 AM »

As someone who has been fairly open (embarrasingly so at times) over the years, I can appreciate that. If you put yourself out there you can't complain when people comment. Nonetheless, just because we can indulge in examinations of people, does that mean that we should...? I guess part of my issue is that some of this seems to be not just an analysis, but more like an unncessarily uncharitable analysis.
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Tags: Ortho-hipsters 
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