Author Topic: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)  (Read 2085 times)

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Offline Peter J

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Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« on: August 24, 2013, 11:33:39 AM »
Although this thread is about ecumenism, I don't want to make it into yet another pro/con ecumenism debate. So I'm going to employ the phrase “problematic ecumenism” without attempting to say whether there is such a thing as ecumenism that isn't problematic.

Alright, now here's the question I would like to pose to the Orthodox: if you believe that “problematic ecumenism” exists within Catholicism (and even especially if you believe it is much more pervasive in Catholicism than in Orthodoxy), what advice would you give to us Catholics?

(I realize that there might be some for whose only advice is “Leave Catholicism”. You're welcome to post that, but I'm hoping there will be some other responses as well.)
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2013, 11:41:58 AM »
For you, Peter: Leave Catholicism. ;D

For others: Doesn't it all come down to better catechesis?

Offline Papist

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2013, 11:57:22 AM »
For you, Peter: Leave Catholicism. ;D

For others: Doesn't it all come down to better catechesis?

What about Catholic ecumenism do you think is problematic?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2013, 12:28:33 PM »
For you, Peter: Leave Catholicism. ;D

For others: Doesn't it all come down to better catechesis?

What about Catholic ecumenism do you think is problematic?

Peter specifically asked us not to discuss that point. Let's at least wait until the next page before we derail!

Offline Wandile

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2013, 12:51:58 PM »
For you, Peter: Leave Catholicism. ;D

For others: Doesn't it all come down to better catechesis?

What about Catholic ecumenism do you think is problematic?

Peter specifically asked us not to discuss that point. Let's at least wait until the next page before we derail!

LOL this was funny :D
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2013, 01:25:58 PM »
I think that problematic ecumenism comes from watering down what you believe in order to make i more palatable for another faith to accept.  I am in favor with an ecumenism that constructively teaches other faiths what you believe without condemning the other faith for their beliefs.  I will admit to not closely following Catholic ecumenism, but the things like the NO mass and the "hip and cool" worship styles are IMO, examples of problematic ecumenism.  Catholic leaders who are willing to meet w/ Orthodox or Protestant leaders to explain better the Catholic faith are examples of good ecumenism.  It does no one any good if the Orthodox believe that Catholics think that everything the Pope says is infallible or for Protestants to think that you worship Mary as a god.  Good ecumenism will explain the doctrine and logic of your position, to allow the other side to understand it better, even if they in the end, may not agree with it.
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2013, 01:41:06 PM »
For you, Peter: Leave Catholicism. ;D

For others: Doesn't it all come down to better catechesis?

What about Catholic ecumenism do you think is problematic?

Including protestant ministers in a committee which decides on what the new liturgy will be like.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2013, 03:54:20 PM »
For you, Peter: Leave Catholicism. ;D

For others: Doesn't it all come down to better catechesis?

What about Catholic ecumenism do you think is problematic?

Peter specifically asked us not to discuss that point. Let's at least wait until the next page before we derail!

Well, I guess that could be on topic, depending how you answer. (See Cyrillic's ^^ post.)
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2013, 04:16:03 PM »
...if you believe that “problematic ecumenism” exists within Catholicism ...what advice would you give to us Catholics?

Follow the advice given by that wisest philosopher of our times: "I shall endeavor to become more cynical with each passing day, look gift horses squarely in the mouth, and find clouds in every silver lining."  :)

Offline JamesR

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2013, 04:59:54 PM »
Tbh, what I don't get is why the Orthodox are always accusing Roman Catholics of ecumenism when we are heading down the same road. I guess we'll just ignore and/or keep quiet the fact that some Orthodox Churches in America use female altar services and Apostle readers? Or that most jurisdictions don't require you to have Confession the night before receiving the Eucharist? Or that the Greeks have "Bible Studies" to appeal to Protestants? I could go on forever baby. It will only be a matter of time before we have our own equivalent of Vatican II and end up in the same lot as Rome.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2013, 05:27:11 PM »
Doesn't it all come down to better catechesis?

I don't know, I don't feel like that does justice to the complexity of the word "ecumenism".

For example, would you say that Catholics engaged in ecumenism 400+ years ago at the Union of Brest?
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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2013, 08:38:59 PM »
Or that most jurisdictions don't require you to have Confession the night before receiving the Eucharist?

I have no doubt that this practice is common among some, but whence does it come that this is necessary for one to confess each time he communes?
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2013, 12:04:12 AM »
Or that most jurisdictions don't require you to have Confession the night before receiving the Eucharist?

I have no doubt that this practice is common among some, but whence does it come that this is necessary for one to confess each time he communes?

Exactly. The frequency of your confession and communion should be regulated with the help of your spiritual father.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2013, 12:13:57 AM »
For you, Peter: Leave Catholicism. ;D

For others: Doesn't it all come down to better catechesis?

What about Catholic ecumenism do you think is problematic?

Everything. I talked to a Catholic priest and he said "we are all Christians, we just messed up God's plan". Well, I don't believe that. Are people who believe that Marriage isn't a Sacrament Christians? Are people who believe that the Real Presence is pagan Christian?

I don't think so. And yet, that's the kind of Ecumenism we get from Rome. When, just a few hundred years before Pope Pius IX said:
Quote
"We define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Also, when the Magisterium of the Church decrees Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, and Roman priests just disregard the tradition of the "Infallible" proclamations of the Magisterium and lie to people saying: "Don't worry about it." When their teachings clearly condemn me.

That's deceptive.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2013, 07:14:07 AM »
Tbh, what I don't get is why the Orthodox are always accusing Roman Catholics of ecumenism when we are heading down the same road. I guess we'll just ignore and/or keep quiet the fact that some Orthodox Churches in America use female altar services and Apostle readers? Or that most jurisdictions don't require you to have Confession the night before receiving the Eucharist? Or that the Greeks have "Bible Studies" to appeal to Protestants? I could go on forever baby. It will only be a matter of time before we have our own equivalent of Vatican II and end up in the same lot as Rome.

This, to me, seems like a key indicator. Not in any one specific area, but in general: it seems that there is a horror at the thought of Orthodox taking even a step down the "ecumenism road" (as it were) that Catholics have already gone down.

I think that, for us Catholics, it's hard to know what to make of that.

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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2013, 07:50:19 AM »
For you, Peter: Leave Catholicism. ;D

For others: Doesn't it all come down to better catechesis?

What about Catholic ecumenism do you think is problematic?

Everything. I talked to a Catholic priest and he said "we are all Christians, we just messed up God's plan". Well, I don't believe that. Are people who believe that Marriage isn't a Sacrament Christians? Are people who believe that the Real Presence is pagan Christian?

I don't think so. And yet, that's the kind of Ecumenism we get from Rome. When, just a few hundred years before Pope Pius IX said:
Quote
"We define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Also, when the Magisterium of the Church decrees Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, and Roman priests just disregard the tradition of the "Infallible" proclamations of the Magisterium and lie to people saying: "Don't worry about it." When their teachings clearly condemn me.

That's deceptive.

The "everyone goes to heaven if they are good" idea has been around for a long time and is not unique to Catholics.  Some Orthodox believe this as well.  What I have found is most knowledgeable Catholics understand the basic flaw and do not agree.

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2013, 06:08:16 PM »
I'd also mention, what is it with Roman Catholics marrying outside of the Church and the Priests not doing anything? AFAIK, don't you have to be married within the Church or face ex-communication? I've met several practicing Roman Catholics who are constantly getting married outside of the Church in court or marrying people of different religions (like Jews) and yet nothing happens to them and the Church doesn't do anything.
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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2013, 04:32:46 PM »
I'd also mention, what is it with Roman Catholics marrying outside of the Church and the Priests not doing anything? AFAIK, don't you have to be married within the Church or face ex-communication? I've met several practicing Roman Catholics who are constantly getting married outside of the Church in court or marrying people of different religions (like Jews) and yet nothing happens to them and the Church doesn't do anything.

You've "met several Roman Catholics who are constantly getting married..."?  What's up with that?  How does one constantly get married?

There is much that one could find fault about with the Catholic Church, especially in the U.S., but that really wasn't the purpose of this thread, I believe.

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Offline Papist

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2013, 04:56:31 PM »
I'd also mention, what is it with Roman Catholics marrying outside of the Church and the Priests not doing anything? AFAIK, don't you have to be married within the Church or face ex-communication? I've met several practicing Roman Catholics who are constantly getting married outside of the Church in court or marrying people of different religions (like Jews) and yet nothing happens to them and the Church doesn't do anything.

You've "met several Roman Catholics who are constantly getting married..."?  What's up with that?  How does one constantly get married?

There is much that one could find fault about with the Catholic Church, especially in the U.S., but that really wasn't the purpose of this thread, I believe.


Maybe these are people who are repeatedly renewing their vows.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2013, 06:20:40 PM »
Manalive!
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2013, 06:26:51 PM »

Offline Peter J

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2013, 07:14:38 PM »
Sorry, I didn't mean him.
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2013, 10:30:11 PM »
I think ecumenism is easier to point out in Catholicism because you have a single place to point at. If someone doesn't like who the Ecumenical Patriarch is paying visits to, they can just say "well, he's not my bishop" and pretend that their little cloister of Orthodoxy is protected.

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2013, 11:16:26 PM »
I think that problematic ecumenism comes from watering down what you believe in order to make i more palatable for another faith to accept.  I am in favor with an ecumenism that constructively teaches other faiths what you believe without condemning the other faith for their beliefs.  I will admit to not closely following Catholic ecumenism, but the things like the NO mass and the "hip and cool" worship styles are IMO, examples of problematic ecumenism.  Catholic leaders who are willing to meet w/ Orthodox or Protestant leaders to explain better the Catholic faith are examples of good ecumenism.  It does no one any good if the Orthodox believe that Catholics think that everything the Pope says is infallible or for Protestants to think that you worship Mary as a god.  Good ecumenism will explain the doctrine and logic of your position, to allow the other side to understand it better, even if they in the end, may not agree with it.

Ok, what if any are we able to compromise on?  What is the Vatican willing to compromise on?  This is what it all comes down to.
What Theological Dogmas are we missing in the Orthodox Church?  What fullness is lacking in the Orthodox Church? 
Compromise is when you give up something you believe in.  And please don't come across with the parallel theological arrangement of the Eastern Catholic churches....   


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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2013, 08:32:55 AM »
Where did I say anything about compromise? Where did anyone suggest compromise?  ???
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2013, 08:43:41 AM »
Manalive!

I mean him:

Quote
Manalive (1912) is a book by G. K. Chesterton

... is wanted on charges of burglary, desertion of a spouse, polygamy, and attempted murder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manalive

(Especially the chapter called, iirc, "The Wild Weddings".)
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2013, 09:56:10 AM »
Where did I say anything about compromise? Where did anyone suggest compromise?  ???

So , whats the point of this topic, or am I misinterpreting what Ecumenism is exactly?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2013, 09:59:42 AM »
Where did I say anything about compromise? Where did anyone suggest compromise?  ???

So , whats the point of this topic, or am I misinterpreting what Ecumenism is exactly?
The point of the topic is: Assuming there is problematic ecumenism going on in the RC Church, what advice would Orthodox Christians give to the RCs on how to get rid of "bad" ecumenism and presumably only have "good" ecumenism (if there is such a thing)
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2013, 10:54:16 AM »
I'd also mention, what is it with Roman Catholics marrying outside of the Church and the Priests not doing anything? AFAIK, don't you have to be married within the Church or face ex-communication? I've met several practicing Roman Catholics who are constantly getting married outside of the Church in court or marrying people of different religions (like Jews) and yet nothing happens to them and the Church doesn't do anything.

You've "met several Roman Catholics who are constantly getting married..."?  What's up with that?  How does one constantly get married?

There is much that one could find fault about with the Catholic Church, especially in the U.S., but that really wasn't the purpose of this thread, I believe.


Maybe these are people who are repeatedly renewing their vows.

Do those vows expire or something?
And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God? -Micah 6:8

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2013, 10:56:15 AM »
I'd also mention, what is it with Roman Catholics marrying outside of the Church and the Priests not doing anything? AFAIK, don't you have to be married within the Church or face ex-communication? I've met several practicing Roman Catholics who are constantly getting married outside of the Church in court or marrying people of different religions (like Jews) and yet nothing happens to them and the Church doesn't do anything.

You've "met several Roman Catholics who are constantly getting married..."?  What's up with that?  How does one constantly get married?

There is much that one could find fault about with the Catholic Church, especially in the U.S., but that really wasn't the purpose of this thread, I believe.


Maybe these are people who are repeatedly renewing their vows.

Do those vows expire or something?
Depends if you go for the lease option.
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Romaios

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2013, 11:09:25 AM »
Depends if you go for the lease option.

I thought that was only available in Iran (Shi'a Islam).

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Ecumenism in Catholicism (and Orthodoxy)
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2013, 11:11:09 AM »
Depends if you go for the lease option.

I thought that was only available in Iran (Shi'a Islam).
Possibly.  In the US, most prefer short term rentals.
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.