Author Topic: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.  (Read 1516 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Xavier

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 661
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, Pray for US!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Apostolic Throne of St. Peter's
Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« on: June 08, 2018, 01:42:47 AM »
Clerical celibacy has always been viewed as a postive discipline, and a great aid to sanctity for those called to that state; although not of divine law and therefore capable of dispensation by ecclesiastical authority in individual cases, it clearly has been beneficial over the whole history of the Church. In the East, bishops - in whom dwells the fullness of the priesthood, for a bishop is truly a summus sacerdos - are chosen exclusively from celibate or perpetually continent men. Many priests historically have voluntarily embraced celibacy for the sake of the kingdom, sometimes leaving former wives behind, as the Lord commends in St. Luke 18:29 etc. In the west, celibacy is the norm for the priesthood; at times, as when former Anglican or Lutheran ministers convert, the requirement is dispensed and married men are ordained.

Those ordained as celibate usually remain celibate perpetually. Sometimes, as in the Anglican Ordinariate, the second generation of priests is chosen ordinarily from those who have embraced the calling of celibacy as a sign of perfect Christian discipleship.

"St. Epiphanius of Salamis (d. 403) stated, "Holy Church respects the dignity of the priesthood to such a point that she does not admit to the deaconate, the priesthood or the episcopate, nor even to the subdeaconate, anyone still living in marriage and begetting children. She accepts only him who if married gives up his wife or has lost her by death, especially in those places where the ecclesiastical canons are strictly attended to."

Yet today, in this pagan age, this sacred discipline is attacked, and there are calls for it to be rescinded altogether.

Do you believe the discipline of clerical celibacy as a norm should be retained, especially for the higher orders of the priesthood?

A basic article briefly treating the history of the norm and the diverse development of the same discipline in East and West: https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/celibacy-in-the-priesthood.html

Quote
In examining the issue of celibacy, we should first address its historical development in the life of the Church and then, next week, its spiritual basis and relevance for todays clergy.

Our Lord presented celibacy as a legitimate lifestyle not only by His very life, since He never married, but also in His teaching. When our Lord emphasized that marriage was a covenant between husband and wife and thereby prohibited divorce and re-marriage (cf. Mt 19:3-12), He concluded, "Some men are incapable of sexual activity from birth; some have been deliberately made so; and some there are who have freely renounced sex for the sake of Gods reign." Traditionally, our Church — as cited in the Catechism (No. 1579) — points to this "free renunciation of sex for the sake of Gods reign" as a basis for celibacy.

Nevertheless, in the early Church, clerical celibacy was not mandated. St. Paul in his first letter to St. Timothy wrote, "A bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, of even temper, self-controlled, modest, and hospitable" (3:2) and "Deacons may be married but once and must be good managers of their children and their households" (3:12). However, one should not erroneously construe this teaching to mean that a bishop, priest, or deacon had to be married; St. Paul admitted that he himself was not married (1 Cor 7:8).

Clement of Alexandria (d. 215) echoed St. Pauls teaching: "All the same, the Church fully receives the husband of one wife whether he be priest or deacon or layman, supposing always that he uses his marriage blamelessly, and such a one shall be saved in the begetting of children."

Nevertheless, the move to clerical celibacy began to grow in areas of the Church. St. Epiphanius of Salamis (d. 403) stated, "Holy Church respects the dignity of the priesthood to such a point that she does not admit to the deaconate, the priesthood or the episcopate, nor even to the subdeaconate, anyone still living in marriage and begetting children. She accepts only him who if married gives up his wife or has lost her by death, especially in those places where the ecclesiastical canons are strictly attended to." The local, Spanish Council of Elvira (306) imposed celibacy on bishops, priests, and deacons: "We decree that all bishops, priests, deacons, and all clerics engaged in the ministry are forbidden entirely to live with their wives and to beget children: whoever shall do so will be deposed from the clerical dignity." Later, the Council of Carthage extended the celibacy requirement to the subdeaconate.

After the legalization of Christianity in 313, greater discussion regarding clerical celibacy emerged. At the ecumenical Council of Nicea I (325), Bishop Hosius of Cordova proposed a decree mandating clerical celibacy, including for those clergy already married. Egyptian Bishop Paphnutius, unmarried himself, rose in protest, asserting that such a requirement would be too rigorous and imprudent. Rather, those members of the clergy already married should continue to be faithful to their wives, and those who were unmarried should personally decide whether or not to be celibate. As a consequence, no church-wide requirement for priests to be celibate was mandated.

During this time, however, the new spiritual fervor of "white martyrdom" arose. During the persecution, many suffered "red martyrdom," the shedding of their blood for the faith. With white martyrdom, men and women chose to renounce the things of this world and to die to their old selves so as to rise to live a life totally dedicated to Christ. This notion of a white martyrdom was the thrust behind monasticism and the vows of poverty, chastity (including celibacy), and obedience.

At this point, the tradition of clerical celibacy differed between the Western and Eastern traditions of the Church. For the Western Church several popes decreed celibacy: Damasus I (384), Siricius (385), Innocent I (404), and Leo I (458). Local councils issued edicts imposing celibacy on the clergy: in Africa, Carthage (390, 401-19); in France, Orange (441) and Tours (461); and in Italy, Turin (398). By the time of Pope Leo I (d. 461), no bishop, priest, deacon, or subdeacon could be married. Nevertheless, the rules were not always as enforced as they should have been.

In the Eastern Church, a distinction was made between bishops and other clergy as to whether they had to be celibate. Emperor Justinians Code of Civil Law forbade anyone who had children or even nephews to be consecrated a bishop. The Council of Trullo (692) mandated that a bishop be celibate, and if he were married, he would have to separate from his wife before his consecration. Priests, deacons, and subdeacons were forbidden to marry after ordination, although they were to continue to fulfill their marital vows if married before ordination. These regulations still stand for most of the Eastern Churches.

Sadly, in the Middle Ages, abuses of clerical celibacy arose, which incited a strong reaction from the Church. The Synod of Augsburg (952), and the local Councils of Anse (994) and Poitiers (1000) all affirmed the rule of celibacy. Pope Gregory VII in 1075 forbade married priests or those who had concubines from saying Mass or performing other ecclesiastical functions, and forbade the laity from hearing these Masses or participating in other liturgical functions offered by such priests. Finally, the First Lateran Council (1123), an ecumenical council of the Church, mandated celibacy for the Western clergy. The Second Lateran Council (1139) subsequently decreed Holy Orders as an impediment to marriage, making any attempt at marriage by an ordained cleric invalid. Finally, the regulations concerning celibacy seemed clear and consistent throughout the Catholic Church.

Later, Protestant leaders ridiculed and attacked the discipline of clerical celibacy, partly because of some of the notorious abuses during the Renaissance. In response, the Council of Trent in its Doctrine on the Sacrament of Orders (1563) stipulated that although celibacy was not a divine law, the Church had the authority to impose celibacy as a discipline. While holding celibacy in high regard, the Church did not diminish the sanctity of marriage or marital love. Moreover, the Council asserted that celibacy was not impossible to live but at the same time recognized that celibates needed the grace of God to do so.

The Catholic Church has continued to affirm the discipline of clerical celibacy, most recently in the Second Vatican Councils decree Presbyterorum ordinis (1965), Pope Paul VIs encyclical Sacerdotalis Caelibatus (1967), and in the Code of Canon Law (1983).

Given the history of how celibacy came to be required for clergy in the Roman Catholic Church (except in several of the Eastern Rites), next week we will now examine the spirituality which undergirds the regulation, see "The Spirituality of Celibacy".
"My daughter, look at My Heart surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You, at least, try to console Me, and say that I promise to assist at the hour of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep Me company for a quarter of an hour" - The Theotokos to Sr. Lucia.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,313
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2018, 02:26:22 AM »
Priesthood and celibacy are distinct "callings".
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Vanhyo

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 997
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2018, 02:59:32 AM »
Allowing your priests to marry might solve your homosexual and child molestation problems, i dont mean to be rude but from orthodox pov, your priests are not truly ordained, so if your priests marries that is not a violation, but might prevent something bad.

In othodoxy, you have to marry before enter holy orders, after that marrige is not allowed. Married priests do not become bishops. Bishops are usually chosen from the monks.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 03:02:39 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,287
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2018, 04:24:58 AM »
In the Eastern Catholic churches, as in the Orthodox Church, most parish priests are married.  The Latin Rite has a number of facilities, even for secular clergy, that support celibacy, for example, secular clergy with an interest in liturgics could join the Oratorians, and there are shared parsonages that house multiple priests.

Due to the increasingly sexualized world we live in, I do believe the Latin Rite of the Roman Church should ordain married secular priests, as it already ordains deacons and presumably subdeacons.  The religious orders should be expanded, especially those immediately concerned with parish operations, like the Canons Regular, the Norbertines and so on, and celibate vocations encouraged to consider these, as regular clergy have the benefit of a monastic or semi-monastic support structure, which an isolated parish priest living on his own in a small town probably lacks.

I would also like to see more Friars in some of the smaller Mendicant Orders, such as the Trinitarians.
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

I beg of all members of OCNet to make it their new years resolution to adopt the Golden Rule in threads and be nice to each other.  It’s the Orthodox Christian thing to do.  Be nice, and remember, in the immortal words of Patrick Swayze of blessed memory, that no one ever wins a fight.

Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

Sts. Cyril, Maximus and Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,287
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2018, 04:44:25 AM »
Allowing your priests to marry might solve your homosexual and child molestation problems, i dont mean to be rude but from orthodox pov, your priests are not truly ordained, so if your priests marries that is not a violation, but might prevent something bad.

In othodoxy, you have to marry before enter holy orders, after that marrige is not allowed. Married priests do not become bishops. Bishops are usually chosen from the monks.

Note that what we might call the Orthodox Patriarchate of Rome, before the Great Schisms of 1054 or even the Nestorian Schism at Ephesus in 433, had an all celibate priesthood, in Rome at least.  The history of it dates to the early fourth century.   I believe they had married priests before them.

As we approach reunion with Rome my belief is that the Roman church should be permitted to retain every practice it had prior to the schism that was not prima facie a cause for the schism (specifically, the assertion that the Roman archbishop could impose his will on his Constantinopolitan or other autocephalous peers, which of course contradicts the doctrine of Pope St. Gregory Dialogos).

As for the validity of Roman Catholic priesthood, I for one am not prepared to deny it, since the custom in much of the Orthodox church is to receive RC priests by vesting (a stripped down service in which they are vested in the epitrachelion, phelonion etc, or in the Western rite presumably a new stole and chasuble).  Contrariwise, from an Orthodox perspective it cannot be verified, but if we re-enter communion with Rome, and I pray this happens in my lifetime, then this would have the effect of confirming the validity of RC orders.

If however we received a major Protestant jurisdiction without rebaptizing, this would be equivalent to our reception of Arian bishops in the 4th century, who were allowed to continue their episcopal ministry upon renouncing their error and reciting the Nicene Creed, and who naturally brought their flock with them.  Obviously an Arian bishop lacks valid ministry and this action on the part of the church in receiving Arians is pure oikonomia.  It also makes the rebaptisms in the Ukraine and indeed I would argue many cases of re-Chrismation seem questionable.

 There was a group that formed to protest this, I think taking it nearly to the point of schism, much opposed by St. Jerome, led by Lucifer, the unfortunately named Bishop of Cagliari (who has, I note with some amusement, since his repose, been venerated as a saint in Sardinia, “St. Lucifer,” this amuses me, but also frustrates me, because Origen and Theodore of Mopsuestia, who died in the peace of the church and were not schismatic, who were regarded as saints, were then later anathematized largely for political reasons at the Second Council of Constantinople, largely on the orders of Emperor St. Justinian (whose sainthood I will recognize, for his incorporation of the Hymn of St. Severus, also known as Ho Monoges, into the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, in the Second Antiphon; this hymn is the Introit in the Syriac Orthodox liturgy).
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

I beg of all members of OCNet to make it their new years resolution to adopt the Golden Rule in threads and be nice to each other.  It’s the Orthodox Christian thing to do.  Be nice, and remember, in the immortal words of Patrick Swayze of blessed memory, that no one ever wins a fight.

Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

Sts. Cyril, Maximus and Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,979
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2018, 02:03:28 PM »
Allowing your priests to marry might solve your homosexual and child molestation problems...

How does it solve homosexual and child molestation problems among Orthodox clergy?
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Vanhyo

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 997
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2018, 02:43:31 PM »
Allowing your priests to marry might solve your homosexual and child molestation problems...

How does it solve homosexual and child molestation problems among Orthodox clergy?
Can you name one case of child molestation in orthodoxy ? in the very rare cases of homosexuality, they are quickly dealt with.

You are comparing a fly with an elephant.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 02:44:13 PM by Vanhyo »

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,811
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2018, 04:58:33 PM »
Allowing your priests to marry might solve your homosexual and child molestation problems...

How does it solve homosexual and child molestation problems among Orthodox clergy?
Can you name one case of child molestation in orthodoxy ? in the very rare cases of homosexuality, they are quickly dealt with.

You are comparing a fly with an elephant.

Fr. Stanislav Vakhabov

Monk Gleb Grozovsky

Fr. Sylianos

Fr. Adam Metropoulos

Not a child abusing priest, but still relevant


And then there's the impenitrable web of accusations surrounding Fr. Herman Podmoshensky.

I mean, it's good that all of these seem to be being dealt with, but you can't pretend that child molestation never happens in Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 04:59:47 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 21,998
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2018, 10:15:46 PM »
Years ago, the OCA's bishop of Alaska helped hide an archimandrite who had been accused of child molestation from the courts. Guy turned out later to be guilty. The bishop was removed.

To posit that there are no Orthodox clergy who do stuff to kids is ridiculous. The Roman Catholics have been caught more often because they have more people. Simple as that.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works


Warning: stories have mature content.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,811
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2018, 10:25:49 PM »
I will say one thing for clerical celibacy, the priesthood seems to be one of those jobs like doctor or lawyer that almost demands an insane workaholic- so maybe there could be an argument for celibacy from a practical point of view or out of fairness to the spouse and kids?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Online Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαύμα!
  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,995
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2018, 10:35:01 PM »
Roman Catholics are wonderful people and we should all thank God that they still exist because the world would be impoverished without them.  I love Rome.
"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Vanhyo

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 997
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2018, 03:30:11 AM »
but you can't pretend that child molestation never happens in Orthodoxy.
I am not pretending, just the first time i hear of this

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,811
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2018, 08:34:22 AM »
but you can't pretend that child molestation never happens in Orthodoxy.
I am not pretending, just the first time i hear of this

Fair enough.


I'm deeply sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 08:34:51 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,287
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2018, 10:30:31 AM »
Roman Catholics are wonderful people and we should all thank God that they still exist because the world would be impoverished without them.  I love Rome.

+1

This is literally true.  When Protestants go on Rome-bashing sprees, espeically those that bash us by implication, my blood boils just a bit.  The RCC has the largest network of charitable operations of any organization in the world; the Orthodox used to have equivalent facilities before the Nikon scandal and massive monastic confiscation under Czar Peter the Great, and the devastation of Turkocratia, and we are getting that infrastructure back (and what some Orthodox churches are doing on a shoestring is miraculous, like the work of the Order of St. Ignatius in the AOCNA on humanitarian relief for homeless youths in Baja California and elsewhere), but right now, the various agencies and institutions of the Roman church are literally keeping people alive, in hospitals, hospices, homeless shelters, orphanages and soup kitchens all over the world.

One reason why I pray for full Orthodox-RC reunion is so we can get intimately involved in that infrastructure and make our own dynamic contributions to it based on our unique knowledge of humanitarian conditions in certain regions where the RCC lacks a major presence.  To some extent, this is already happening, but, being in communion with Rome and being able to supply vocations for certain charity-focused religious orders would be a huge leap forward (right now the Coptic Church is a rare example of an Orthodox church that has a specific order, I believe predominantly involving nuns, focused on charitable operations such as the vital orphanages required in Egypt due to the barbaric Islamic legislation prohibiting adoption).
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

I beg of all members of OCNet to make it their new years resolution to adopt the Golden Rule in threads and be nice to each other.  It’s the Orthodox Christian thing to do.  Be nice, and remember, in the immortal words of Patrick Swayze of blessed memory, that no one ever wins a fight.

Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

Sts. Cyril, Maximus and Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,287
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2018, 10:34:21 AM »
but you can't pretend that child molestation never happens in Orthodoxy.
I am not pretending, just the first time i hear of this

It is so rare, although I was aware of these cases, the other day in a conversation I tried to recall the total number of Orthodox priests I was aware of who were guilty of abuse and could remember only three of them, and not by name.   This included the idiot in Romania who crucified a nun and the incompetent Moldovan priest who inadvertantly drowned a baby during baptism, and the villainous convert ordained by the Bulgarians, and deposed by them, who was running a (not sexually) abusive home for teenagers in Alaska.
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

I beg of all members of OCNet to make it their new years resolution to adopt the Golden Rule in threads and be nice to each other.  It’s the Orthodox Christian thing to do.  Be nice, and remember, in the immortal words of Patrick Swayze of blessed memory, that no one ever wins a fight.

Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

Sts. Cyril, Maximus and Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,811
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2018, 11:26:13 AM »
but you can't pretend that child molestation never happens in Orthodoxy.
I am not pretending, just the first time i hear of this

It is so rare, although I was aware of these cases, the other day in a conversation I tried to recall the total number of Orthodox priests I was aware of who were guilty of abuse and could remember only three of them, and not by name.   This included the idiot in Romania who crucified a nun and the incompetent Moldovan priest who inadvertantly drowned a baby during baptism, and the villainous convert ordained by the Bulgarians, and deposed by them, who was running a (not sexually) abusive home for teenagers in Alaska.

Here's a list of convictions, at least.

Not all of them are necessarily accurate and a few are things like adultery and homosexuality, which really don't belong on the same list as child molestation, but nevertheless.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Brilko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 188
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: ?
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2018, 12:30:44 AM »
Am I the only one who was looking forward to seeing how the Mistress of the Dark fit into this subject only to be cruelly disillusioned?

Offline Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,194
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2018, 01:00:14 AM »
Am I the only one who was looking forward to seeing how the Mistress of the Dark fit into this subject only to be cruelly disillusioned?

:laugh:

Offline Sharbel

  • Glory to God in all things!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,599
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Greek
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2018, 04:30:19 PM »
It's complicated.  Despite the canons on clerical celibacy from the local Synod in Elvira, we have the glaring example, over two centuries later, of PP Hormisdas' son, Sylverius, becoming pope himself.  While it's hard to verify the dates of ordination and even of birth, other cases indicate that neither celibacy nor continence was required of clergymen, even bishops, consistently in the first millennium.
Sanctus Deus
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ
Άγιος ο Θεός

Offline CarolS

  • Lurker Extraordinaire
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 226
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2018, 07:40:11 PM »
Simply allowing priests to marry will not stop pedophilia or homosexuality.  According to traditional Christianity, these are moral failings which one could fall into regardless of marital state. However, celibacy is a particular charism which not all are given the grace to fulfill.  The natural human longing for intimacy (as well as sexual urges) can tempt celibate priests to act out on whomever they closely associate with, often altar boys and other church men, and this often starts out rather harmlessly as friendships which progressively grow sinful.

If a man has unbridled attractions to other men or boys, getting married to a woman will not usually fix this.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 07:41:55 PM by CarolS »
Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?

Offline Justin Kolodziej

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,292
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Met. of Atlanta
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2018, 11:34:04 PM »
Am I the only one who was looking forward to seeing how the Mistress of the Dark fit into this subject only to be cruelly disillusioned?

:laugh:
Make that 3  ;D

Seriously though...
I will say one thing for clerical celibacy, the priesthood seems to be one of those jobs like doctor or lawyer that almost demands an insane workaholic- so maybe there could be an argument for celibacy from a practical point of view or out of fairness to the spouse and kids?
It was something like that, actually...

This not be accurate, but the way I heard it is that at some point  Rome/the West decided priests should say Mass every day, period. Well, since they are supposed to refrain from marital relations beforehand, there's an obvious problem there. Forced priestly celibacy then seemed like the best solution, I guess.
Today, too, people can be true Christians only if, on a daily basis, they’re guided by God’s saints.
  Saint Justin Popović

Offline RaphaCam

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,313
  • It is honourable to reveal the works of God
    • Em Espírito e em Verdade
  • Faith: Big-O Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2018, 11:36:53 PM »
Simply allowing priests to marry will not stop pedophilia or homosexuality.  According to traditional Christianity, these are moral failings which one could fall into regardless of marital state. However, celibacy is a particular charism which not all are given the grace to fulfill.  The natural human longing for intimacy (as well as sexual urges) can tempt celibate priests to act out on whomever they closely associate with, often altar boys and other church men, and this often starts out rather harmlessly as friendships which progressively grow sinful.

If a man has unbridled attractions to other men or boys, getting married to a woman will not usually fix this.
I see your point and agree with it, but I believe relieving rules for clerical celibacy would give a break in the "I'll send my effeminate son to the seminary so that the neighbours stop asking questions" thing.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline scamandrius

  • A man of many, many turns
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,376
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2018, 02:20:37 AM »
Allowing your priests to marry might solve your homosexual and child molestation problems,

This is just blatantly false. You think someone who is sexually attracted to young boys/girls or attracted to other adult men is just going to be "cured" with the availability of heterosexual marriage?  They're not and that's not how it works.  I'm sure there were a great deal of men who went into the priesthood hopeful that the imposition of celibacy would help them deal with their urges.  That failed, too.  If the Roman Catholic Church really wanted to correct these issues, they need to do a better job of screening men for the priesthood.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,979
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2018, 08:30:40 AM »
Allowing your priests to marry might solve your homosexual and child molestation problems...

How does it solve homosexual and child molestation problems among Orthodox clergy?
Can you name one case of child molestation in orthodoxy ?

I know there (in the Polish Orthodox Church) are two defrocked priests (one because he raped a girl...)

^One case, since you asked for "one case". 

Quote
in the very rare cases of homosexuality...

LOL.

Quote
...they are quickly dealt with.

Not always, hardly.  But may your faith save you.

Quote
You are comparing a fly with an elephant.

No, you are too sheltered.   
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Sharbel

  • Glory to God in all things!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,599
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Greek
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2018, 10:01:23 PM »
This not be accurate, but the way I heard it is that at some point  Rome/the West decided priests should say Mass every day, period. Well, since they are supposed to refrain from marital relations beforehand, there's an obvious problem there. Forced priestly celibacy then seemed like the best solution, I guess.

Partially correct.  With the fall of the Western Roman Empire, the Church found it very difficult to build a Christian culture among the disillusioned Romans of the Italian peninsula.  It seemed that the barbarian peoples, more religious than the decadent Romans, were more receptive to Christianity.  However, she could no longer count on the infrastructure of the empire, so it made more sense to send off monks to evangelize them.  Since monks are celibate by definition, they celebrated several liturgies - including the hours - everyday, which established the tradition of daily Mass in the West, which is more challenging to married clergy.  This caused no few breaks of discipline, which eventually led to the establishment of mandatory celibacy for the clergy.
Sanctus Deus
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ
Άγιος ο Θεός

Offline Halik

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 47
  • Faith: Roman Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Fulda
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2018, 09:27:42 AM »
Quote
With the fall of the Western Roman Empire, the Church found it very difficult to build a Christian culture among the disillusioned Romans of the Italian peninsula.  It seemed that the barbarian peoples, more religious than the decadent Romans, were more receptive to Christianity.  However, she could no longer count on the infrastructure of the empire, so it made more sense to send off monks to evangelize them.  Since monks are celibate by definition, they celebrated several liturgies - including the hours - everyday, which established the tradition of daily Mass in the West, which is more challenging to married clergy.  This caused no few breaks of discipline, which eventually led to the establishment of mandatory celibacy for the clergy.

There is evidence by the end of the 4th century for daily mass in Milan, Aquiliela, Spain and North Africa. Augustine tells us, that things were different in the east. But that does not mean, that a daily eucharist is a purley western phenomen. Chrysostom testifies that friday, saturday and sunday were the normal eucharistic days. If you add the feasts and martyrs memorial, you have also an almost daily eucharist in the east. Nevertheless the situation in the east is more disparate.

IMHO it has a clear biblical foundation and was the practice of the early apostolic church in Jerusalem (Acts 2: 42-46)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 09:35:12 AM by Halik »
“We adore You, O Christ, and we praise You, because by Your holy cross, You have redeemed the world."
(St. Francis of Assisi)

Offline Jetavan

  • Argumentum ad australopithecum
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,999
  • Tenzin and Desmond
    • The Mystical Theology
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2018, 12:55:58 PM »
Quote
With the fall of the Western Roman Empire, the Church found it very difficult to build a Christian culture among the disillusioned Romans of the Italian peninsula.  It seemed that the barbarian peoples, more religious than the decadent Romans, were more receptive to Christianity.  However, she could no longer count on the infrastructure of the empire, so it made more sense to send off monks to evangelize them.  Since monks are celibate by definition, they celebrated several liturgies - including the hours - everyday, which established the tradition of daily Mass in the West, which is more challenging to married clergy.  This caused no few breaks of discipline, which eventually led to the establishment of mandatory celibacy for the clergy.

There is evidence by the end of the 4th century for daily mass in Milan, Aquiliela, Spain and North Africa. Augustine tells us, that things were different in the east. But that does not mean, that a daily eucharist is a purley western phenomen. Chrysostom testifies that friday, saturday and sunday were the normal eucharistic days. If you add the feasts and martyrs memorial, you have also an almost daily eucharist in the east. Nevertheless the situation in the east is more disparate.

IMHO it has a clear biblical foundation and was the practice of the early apostolic church in Jerusalem (Acts 2: 42-46)
So you’re saying that the original practice of the Church was priestly non-marriage and celibacy?
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline Justin Kolodziej

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,292
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Met. of Atlanta
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2018, 01:18:36 PM »
St. Peter had a mother-in-law, which means he had a wife and probably kids.
Wonder what happened to them.
Today, too, people can be true Christians only if, on a daily basis, they’re guided by God’s saints.
  Saint Justin Popović

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,020
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: TUOCOUIA
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2018, 01:41:47 PM »
St. Peter had a mother-in-law, which means he had a wife and probably kids.
Wonder what happened to them.

They died.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,287
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2018, 03:34:34 PM »
Years ago, the OCA's bishop of Alaska helped hide an archimandrite who had been accused of child molestation from the courts. Guy turned out later to be guilty. The bishop was removed.

To posit that there are no Orthodox clergy who do stuff to kids is ridiculous. The Roman Catholics have been caught more often because they have more people. Simple as that.

Which bishop was that? 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 03:38:05 PM by Alpha60 »
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

I beg of all members of OCNet to make it their new years resolution to adopt the Golden Rule in threads and be nice to each other.  It’s the Orthodox Christian thing to do.  Be nice, and remember, in the immortal words of Patrick Swayze of blessed memory, that no one ever wins a fight.

Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

Sts. Cyril, Maximus and Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,811
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2018, 03:40:52 PM »
St. Peter had a mother-in-law, which means he had a wife and probably kids.
Wonder what happened to them.

He had a wife and daughter. Both martyred shortly after he was. His daughter might have been St. Petronila, but it's uncertain.

His wife's name is unfortunately unrecorded.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,811
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2018, 03:44:41 PM »
Years ago, the OCA's bishop of Alaska helped hide an archimandrite who had been accused of child molestation from the courts. Guy turned out later to be guilty. The bishop was removed.

To posit that there are no Orthodox clergy who do stuff to kids is ridiculous. The Roman Catholics have been caught more often because they have more people. Simple as that.

Which bishop was that?

Bishop Nikolai Soraich- managed to get himself transferred to ROCOR and is currently living in pseudo-exile/retirement in Australia, iirc.

I think the Archimandrite's name was Isidore Britain.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline theistgal

  • Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,313
  • don't even go there!
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2018, 10:35:23 AM »
Am I the only one who was looking forward to seeing how the Mistress of the Dark fit into this subject only to be cruelly disillusioned?

I'm still hoping.  ;D
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 21,998
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2018, 10:50:10 AM »
Me too.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works


Warning: stories have mature content.

Offline theistgal

  • Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,313
  • don't even go there!
Re: Clerical celibacy: from Elvira to the present.
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2018, 10:51:54 PM »
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)