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Author Topic: Orthodox Converts Converting to Catholicism  (Read 17607 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 02, 2011, 08:48:48 AM »

Many here at one time or another may have read the Ochlophobist blog which I read periodically but is now closed.  The author had an interesting farewell post which in it he mentioned he was becoming Catholic and I thought had some fairly interesting comments in it.  I was curious if there have been other notable Orthodox converts who then converted to Catholicism and what their reasons were for doing so.  There was Fr. John Mack who I know converted a few years ago.
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2011, 09:17:31 AM »

Boris I of Bulgaria comes to mind, though I'm not sure whether he actually converted to Rome (or just showed interest), before swinging back towards Constantinople. And I suppose this isn't what you meant when you started the thread.  angel He is the only "notable" person I could think of, though.
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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2011, 09:19:19 AM »

I have seen a couple of commenters say that Och is reverting. If that is the case, I can easily see how someone who converted to Catholicism in the first place decided to return to it, especially considering how disgusted he was with American Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2011, 09:21:26 AM »

Grand Duke Vitaut he was jumping from the RC to the EO and backwards several times. King Daniel of Galicia also seems to have jumped a few times.
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2011, 09:24:09 AM »

I was more thinking of modern era American converts.  Grin
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2011, 09:32:48 AM »

Princess Sofia of Greece and Denmark converted when she married King Juan Carlos of Spain.
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2011, 09:33:38 AM »

Boris I of Bulgaria comes to mind, though I'm not sure whether he actually converted to Rome (or just showed interest), before swinging back towards Constantinople. And I suppose this isn't what you meant when you started the thread.  angel He is the only "notable" person I could think of, though.

I'm not sure if his case counts, because Rome was still Orthodox then.

By the way today is his feast day Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2011, 09:35:42 AM »

Catherine Doherty, whose cause is being considered for canonization in the Catholic Church, was a Russian Orthodox convert.

EDIT: I realize both of my examples are cradles. I expect it will be a little easier to find converts who convert again in the next 10 years, as people are getting pretty deft at changing religions.
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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2011, 09:50:22 AM »

Boris I of Bulgaria comes to mind, though I'm not sure whether he actually converted to Rome (or just showed interest), before swinging back towards Constantinople. And I suppose this isn't what you meant when you started the thread.  angel He is the only "notable" person I could think of, though.

I'm not sure if his case counts, because Rome was still Orthodox then.

By the way today is his feast day Smiley

I didn't know that, interesting coincidence, but as you say, Rome was Orthodox/Catholic then anyway... and like AMM said, not really what he was asking about anyway Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2011, 09:55:43 AM »

Many here at one time or another may have read the Ochlophobist blog which I read periodically but is now closed.  The author had an interesting farewell post which in it he mentioned he was becoming Catholic and I thought had some fairly interesting comments in it.

Blog link please.
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2011, 11:24:14 AM »

Many here at one time or another may have read the Ochlophobist blog which I read periodically but is now closed.  The author had an interesting farewell post which in it he mentioned he was becoming Catholic and I thought had some fairly interesting comments in it.

Blog link please.

Couldn't link directly, but this may be of interest... http://ad-orientem.blogspot.com/2011/04/farewell-ochlophobist-as-he-closes-his.html
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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2011, 12:12:49 PM »

This bizarre step can probably be explained by reading the blog of  Arturo Vasquez, a proudly and decidedly cultural/ nominal/ cafeteria RC whom Och attempted to copy for the Orthodox world. You can be assured he did not make the switch because he cares about the dogma of the RCC, but because he wants to be in a messy "old world" church where he can indulge his Marxist fantasizing while still playing around with folksy Christian trinkets. Attempting to be an actual pious Christian is, in his view, simply a hopeless affectation; it's much more worthwhile to be apathetic, nominal, and therefore more authentic- since this doesn't work well if your religion isn't widely followed where you live, it makes more sense to switch to a more established and popular religion where you can join large numbers of other people in not caring about your religion.

What we have here is a very strange expression of Christian hipsterism. The posturing is so contorted and contrived that I doubt it could ever involve more than a tiny handful of people.
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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2011, 12:34:49 PM »

You can be assured he did [this] because he wants to be in a messy "old world" church where he can indulge his...fantasizing while still playing around with folksy Christian trinkets.

Crap, am I not allowed to do this?

I think that brown scapulars are a pretty neat thing and would really add to my hipster eliteness.
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« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2011, 12:39:45 PM »

You can be assured he did [this] because he wants to be in a messy "old world" church where he can indulge his...fantasizing while still playing around with folksy Christian trinkets.

Crap, am I not allowed to do this?

Fantasizing about the Tsar returning on a gleaming white horse is OK   Wink
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« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2011, 12:40:44 PM »

What's the word for it? Non-conformist conformism?
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« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2011, 01:02:08 PM »

Many here at one time or another may have read the Ochlophobist blog which I read periodically but is now closed.  The author had an interesting farewell post which in it he mentioned he was becoming Catholic and I thought had some fairly interesting comments in it.  I was curious if there have been other notable Orthodox converts who then converted to Catholicism and what their reasons were for doing so.  There was Fr. John Mack who I know converted a few years ago.

What on earth would make you want to leave the church?  Shocked
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« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2011, 01:20:17 PM »

Blog link please.

http://byebyeochlophobist.blogspot.com
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« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2011, 01:35:49 PM »

Inasmuch as Och claims to be a communist and Communism and Christianity are diametrically opposed philosophies, I think he's really better of going to the RC.  Half that Church has been taken over by the marxists, so he'll feel much more at  home there.
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« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2011, 01:37:43 PM »

There was Fr. John Mack who I know converted a few years ago.

This was not theological, it was practical. He was twice defrocked in Orthodoxy, once in the Antiochian church and once in the Romanian OCA I believe, both times for causing personal issues with families in his congregations (no sexual abuse, just to be clear).

When he had no new places left to run in Orthodoxy, he decided to be a Byzantine Catholic priest in Sugar Creek, MO. He converted so that he could remain a priest. He was actually serving the one time I attended their congregation in inquiry about Eastern Catholicism during my journey into Orthodoxy. He is an outstanding homilist. At that time they were making plans to have him replace the long standing priest there so that he could return back to the East coast and be around family. Anyway, they found out Mr. Mack before too long and suspended him. I have no idea what he is up to now; he has totally dropped off the radar. He might still live in the Kansas City metro for all that I know.
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« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2011, 01:48:47 PM »

Inasmuch as Och claims to be a communist and Communism and Christianity are diametrically opposed philosophies, I think he's really better of going to the RC.  Half that Church has been taken over by the marxists, so he'll feel much more at  home there.
I am a sort of a Communist, Orthodox of Orthodox too, quite careless religiously and I'm not going anywhere. Definitely. And I like the ochlophobist a lot.  Had he been living in an Orthodox land he would have stayed, since he would have hardly stuck out. But the over-pious & small demographics of former  evangelical turned fathers- quoting- orthodox monarchists and libertarians  wasn't home for him.
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« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2011, 01:53:37 PM »

Inasmuch as Och claims to be a communist and Communism and Christianity are diametrically opposed philosophies, I think he's really better of going to the RC.  Half that Church has been taken over by the marxists, so he'll feel much more at  home there.
I am a sort of a Communist, Orthodox of Orthodox too, quite careless religiously

Careless enough to hang around on internet forums telling everyone else why they should be careless too.  Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2011, 01:55:36 PM »

Inasmuch as Och claims to be a communist and Communism and Christianity are diametrically opposed philosophies, I think he's really better of going to the RC.  Half that Church has been taken over by the marxists, so he'll feel much more at  home there.
I am a sort of a Communist, Orthodox of Orthodox too, quite careless religiously

Careless enough to hang around on internet forums telling everyone else why they should be careless too.  Smiley
I do not take any of this idle talk that seriously. It's like others like talking about baseball  or beer.
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« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2011, 01:59:14 PM »

Inasmuch as Och claims to be a communist and Communism and Christianity are diametrically opposed philosophies, I think he's really better of going to the RC.  Half that Church has been taken over by the marxists, so he'll feel much more at  home there.
I am a sort of a Communist, Orthodox of Orthodox too, quite careless religiously

Careless enough to hang around on internet forums telling everyone else why they should be careless too.  Smiley
I do not take any of this idle talk that seriously. It's like others like talking about baseball  or beer.

I defy you to find someone who regularly participates in an internet forum about baseball and beer, and who is not deeply interested in the subject.
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« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2011, 02:00:54 PM »


"I can go to Mass in the barrio and completely forget about neo-Caths."

Ah, yes, the barrio, where the real people dwell. Hilarious.
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« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2011, 02:01:32 PM »

It interests me, but from a cultural/sociological and historical perspective. I'm quite agnostic and uninterested too, when it comes to theological/dogmatic stuff.
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« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2011, 02:05:30 PM »

What would piss off most pious folk is that there is absolutely nothing I have to do in order to get an Orthodox burial, should I die in the state I am now, besides payment of some cash to the priests, chanters and sacristan. I mean that would happen in the ROC.  It's probably totally different in formerly EOC or HOOM parishes.
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« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2011, 02:08:24 PM »

Behold, the non-wannabe wannabe.
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« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2011, 02:09:15 PM »

I'm quite agnostic and uninterested too, when it comes to theological/dogmatic stuff.

Don't worry, I totally believe you.
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« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2011, 02:12:50 PM »

Behold, the non-wannabe wannabe.
I won't disagree with you:there is some wannabe attitude here, yet it's nothing that would stand out, back home (I am there, actually, right now). Except that is more rationalized and more verbalized. That's where the "wannabe" thing is. Well, it is what it is.
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« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2011, 02:20:16 PM »

Quote
What on earth would make you want to leave the church?

It's not me in question, but I think it was noted it wasn't the persistent scandals.  My feeling in reading through the posts that I have is its a combination of competing, self-constructed visions of American Orthodoxy and liturgical fetishization.
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« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2011, 02:22:57 PM »

...it's nothing that would stand out, back home (I am there, actually, right now).

Are you really Back Home? Have you knocked up any drunken nuns yet, and sent photos back to shock pious evangelical convertsky?
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« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2011, 02:25:33 PM »

Quote
What on earth would make you want to leave the church?

It's not me in question, but I think it was noted it wasn't the persistent scandals.  My feeling in reading through the posts that I have is its a combination of competing, self-constructed visions of American Orthodoxy and liturgical fetishization.

We truly do have to move beyond the 'I'm more Orthodox than you because I do (fill in the blank).' 

Had I gone on to the priesthood, I think I would have made all would be converts and high school seniors memorize the text of the Publican and the Pharisee and the Last Judgment and write an essay on them both.
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« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2011, 02:29:36 PM »

...it's nothing that would stand out, back home (I am there, actually, right now).

Are you really Back Home? Have you knocked up any drunken nuns yet, and sent photos back to shock pious evangelical convertsky?
You see I have nothing against evangelicals that become Orthodox, leaving behind Protestant posturing and stuff. I cannot stand those that wanna recycle that as if there was anything worth saving in it and "use it in the Church". And such is often the case.
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« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2011, 02:34:58 PM »

What would piss off most pious folk is that there is absolutely nothing I have to do in order to get an Orthodox burial, should I die in the state I am now,
That might piss off those who are self righteous, but I doubt the truly pious would be bothered by something like that. Judge not and all that.
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« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2011, 02:37:39 PM »

Quote
What on earth would make you want to leave the church?

It's not me in question, but I think it was noted it wasn't the persistent scandals.  My feeling in reading through the posts that I have is its a combination of competing, self-constructed visions of American Orthodoxy and liturgical fetishization.

We truly do have to move beyond the 'I'm more Orthodox than you because I do (fill in the blank).' 

Had I gone on to the priesthood, I think I would have made all would be converts and high school seniors memorize the text of the Publican and the Pharisee and the Last Judgment and write an essay on them both.

"We truly do have to move beyond the 'I'm more Orthodox than you because I do (fill in the blank).'" Is that really a big issue? Ive never noticed it.
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« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2011, 02:38:09 PM »

Quote
What on earth would make you want to leave the church?

It's not me in question, but I think it was noted it wasn't the persistent scandals.  My feeling in reading through the posts that I have is its a combination of competing, self-constructed visions of American Orthodoxy and liturgical fetishization.

I was just stating it in general.  Tongue
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« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2011, 02:39:31 PM »

...it's nothing that would stand out, back home (I am there, actually, right now).

Are you really Back Home? Have you knocked up any drunken nuns yet, and sent photos back to shock pious evangelical convertsky?
You see I have nothing against evangelicals that become Orthodox, leaving behind Protestant posturing and stuff. I cannot stand those that wanna recycle that as if there was anything worth saving in it and "use it in the Church". And such is often the case.
I like you.
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« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2011, 09:41:07 PM »


"I can go to Mass in the barrio and completely forget about neo-Caths."

Ah, yes, the barrio, where the real people dwell. Hilarious.
Cheesy I bursted out laughing when I saw this.

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« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2011, 09:53:57 PM »

Many here at one time or another may have read the Ochlophobist blog which I read periodically but is now closed.  The author had an interesting farewell post which in it he mentioned he was becoming Catholic and I thought had some fairly interesting comments in it.  I was curious if there have been other notable Orthodox converts who then converted to Catholicism and what their reasons were for doing so.  There was Fr. John Mack who I know converted a few years ago.

Father John Mack too?

Father David Anderson converted to Eastern Catholicism during that Northern California debacle with Metropolitan Philip more than 10 years ago.
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« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2011, 11:53:07 PM »

If I might address two things from this thread:

I was never disciplined in any way in either the OCA or the AOANA.  While in the AOANA my godfather was disciplined by Englewood, and a friend from my parish here in Memphis got a nasty letter from Englewood, but we could never figure out why I was not disciplined in any way by Englewood, other than the fact (or so we were told) that at one point Englewood thought that the Ochlophobist was written by my godfather and not by me.  In any event, I left both the OCA and the AOANA in good standing and was a member of GOArch in good standing until I left Orthodoxy.  Anyone who suggests anything otherwise can feel free to contact St. John's Orthodox Church in Memphis (AOANA) and ask them about my transfer of membership both to the AOANA and out of it.

Secondly, the church in the barrio is one of three RC parishes of about the same driving distance from my house.  For the first time in many years, I do not have to drive through or to a bourgeois neighborhood to get to church.  But that refreshment is all part of my usual affect.  Keep it real homey's.
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« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2011, 11:59:04 PM »

This bizarre step can probably be explained by reading the blog of  Arturo Vasquez, a proudly and decidedly cultural/ nominal/ cafeteria RC whom Och attempted to copy for the Orthodox world. You can be assured he did not make the switch because he cares about the dogma of the RCC, but because he wants to be in a messy "old world" church where he can indulge his Marxist fantasizing while still playing around with folksy Christian trinkets. Attempting to be an actual pious Christian is, in his view, simply a hopeless affectation; it's much more worthwhile to be apathetic, nominal, and therefore more authentic- since this doesn't work well if your religion isn't widely followed where you live, it makes more sense to switch to a more established and popular religion where you can join large numbers of other people in not caring about your religion.

What we have here is a very strange expression of Christian hipsterism. The posturing is so contorted and contrived that I doubt it could ever involve more than a tiny handful of people.

Amen! Thank you! That more people read this.
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« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2011, 12:29:54 AM »

This bizarre step can probably be explained by reading the blog of  Arturo Vasquez, a proudly and decidedly cultural/ nominal/ cafeteria RC whom Och attempted to copy for the Orthodox world. You can be assured he did not make the switch because he cares about the dogma of the RCC, but because he wants to be in a messy "old world" church where he can indulge his Marxist fantasizing while still playing around with folksy Christian trinkets. Attempting to be an actual pious Christian is, in his view, simply a hopeless affectation; it's much more worthwhile to be apathetic, nominal, and therefore more authentic- since this doesn't work well if your religion isn't widely followed where you live, it makes more sense to switch to a more established and popular religion where you can join large numbers of other people in not caring about your religion.

What we have here is a very strange expression of Christian hipsterism. The posturing is so contorted and contrived that I doubt it could ever involve more than a tiny handful of people.

Amen! Thank you! That more people read this.

Unfortunately, I noticed this strange kind of Christianity in the Russian Catholic Church I visited before becoming Orthodox.
It was all about loudly proclaiming that one was a Catholic without really believing in it.
All the moves were there (signs of the cross and prostrations), but they appeared to be deluded. Prelest?

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2011, 12:43:42 AM »

Maybe it's just me... but hasn't the appearance and post by ochlophobist brought home the realization that some of this talk is really improper, like we're taking uncharitable and unnecessary shots at people? I don't think this kind of discussion was really where the thread had to go based on the question(s) in the original post, or where the thread should have gone... I apologize for judging, and I realise that I am judging, but still... Huh  Undecided 
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« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2011, 12:45:29 AM »

Maybe it's just me... but hasn't the appearance and post by ochlophobist brought home the realization that some of this talk is really improper, like we're taking uncharitable and unnecessary shots at people? I don't think this kind of discussion was really where the thread had to go based on the question(s) in the original post, or where the thread should have gone... I apologize for judging, and I realise that I am judging, but still... Huh  Undecided 

If somebody want to broadcast all of their personal business in public, then it's likely to get a public response.
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« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2011, 12:49:23 AM »

As someone who has been fairly open (embarrasingly so at times) over the years, I can appreciate that. If you put yourself out there you can't complain when people comment. Nonetheless, just because we can indulge in examinations of people, does that mean that we should...? I guess part of my issue is that some of this seems to be not just an analysis, but more like an unncessarily uncharitable analysis.
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« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2011, 12:57:40 AM »

Maybe it's just me... but hasn't the appearance and post by ochlophobist brought home the realization that some of this talk is really improper, like we're taking uncharitable and unnecessary shots at people? I don't think this kind of discussion was really where the thread had to go based on the question(s) in the original post, or where the thread should have gone... I apologize for judging, and I realise that I am judging, but still... Huh  Undecided 

I think we need to pray for those who are unstable in the faith.

I do not think that there is a perfect Orthodox or Catholic parish out there because every parish has its skeletons in the closet since we are all sinners. Not one of us is perfect.

Yet, people cannot just quit a parish and run to the next parish whenever they have interpersonal problems. These problems will always be there as one cannot run away from one's own idiosyncrasies. On the other hand, when one is hit with a restraining order that prevents one from attending their parish, then one must find a new parish. Or if there is a crazy person who does not know the meaning of "NO," then one must go elsewhere. That did happen in one parish, and the bishop finally had to intervene.

I do not know why Father John Mack and Father David deconverted from Orthodoxy and joined the Catholic Church.
These men appeared to be very solid in their faith. Perhaps they were needed elsewhere. God grant them many years.
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« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2011, 12:58:41 AM »

As someone who has been fairly open (embarrasingly so at times) over the years, I can appreciate that. If you put yourself out there you can't complain when people comment. Nonetheless, just because we can indulge in examinations of people, does that mean that we should...? I guess part of my issue is that some of this seems to be not just an analysis, but more like an unncessarily uncharitable analysis.

The reasons the guy stated aren't sound, and so he's getting made fun of for his position. I think that people can make a respectable case for going Roman Catholic, and this just wasn't one of them.
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« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2011, 01:05:40 AM »

As someone who has been fairly open (embarrasingly so at times) over the years, I can appreciate that. If you put yourself out there you can't complain when people comment. Nonetheless, just because we can indulge in examinations of people, does that mean that we should...? I guess part of my issue is that some of this seems to be not just an analysis, but more like an unncessarily uncharitable analysis.

The reasons the guy stated aren't sound, and so he's getting made fun of for his position. I think that people can make a respectable case for going Roman Catholic, and this just wasn't one of them.

I know several Orthodox Christians who did convert to Catholicism after they were convinced that the Papacy and Papal Powers were correct.
Nevertheless, one did convert back to Orthodoxy after recognizing the fallacies of the Papal Powers.
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« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2011, 04:45:27 AM »

Many here at one time or another may have read the Ochlophobist blog which I read periodically but is now closed.  The author had an interesting farewell post which in it he mentioned he was becoming Catholic and I thought had some fairly interesting comments in it.  I was curious if there have been other notable Orthodox converts who then converted to Catholicism and what their reasons were for doing so.  There was Fr. John Mack who I know converted a few years ago.

Father John Mack too?

Father David Anderson converted to Eastern Catholicism during that Northern California debacle with Metropolitan Philip more than 10 years ago.

The author of this blog: http://byzantineramblings.blogspot.com used to be an Antiochian Orthodox priest and now is a Melkite Catholic one. I don't know whom he was originally.
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« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2011, 07:42:07 AM »

I am starting to think that the best layperson should be ignorant & obedient, culturally tradtional (albeit if even as a boorish lout),  & superstitious. Meanwhile those with more totalitarian aspirations can be monarchist (although perhaps an emperor or stalinist tyrant can be interchageable with the times) sanctimonious, pious, "true & traditionalist", clergy of dubious standing which constitute a wonderful grand mosaic of God knows what.
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« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2011, 08:06:50 AM »

This bizarre step can probably be explained by reading the blog of  Arturo Vasquez, a proudly and decidedly cultural/ nominal/ cafeteria RC whom Och attempted to copy for the Orthodox world. You can be assured he did not make the switch because he cares about the dogma of the RCC, but because he wants to be in a messy "old world" church where he can indulge his Marxist fantasizing while still playing around with folksy Christian trinkets. Attempting to be an actual pious Christian is, in his view, simply a hopeless affectation; it's much more worthwhile to be apathetic, nominal, and therefore more authentic- since this doesn't work well if your religion isn't widely followed where you live, it makes more sense to switch to a more established and popular religion where you can join large numbers of other people in not caring about your religion.

What we have here is a very strange expression of Christian hipsterism. The posturing is so contorted and contrived that I doubt it could ever involve more than a tiny handful of people.

Amen! Thank you! That more people read this.

Unfortunately, I noticed this strange kind of Christianity in the Russian Catholic Church I visited before becoming Orthodox.
It was all about loudly proclaiming that one was a Catholic without really believing in it.
All the moves were there (signs of the cross and prostrations), but they appeared to be deluded. Prelest?

I think there's a big difference here. Someone taking pride in being Catholic without actually believing or practicing it is a simple affectation. What we have here are people who have read many, many books on the subject, and even gone through a "pious" phase which they're now embarrassed about. It didn't work for them, so now they believe any attempt at piety is delusion and pretense. It is much more important to be "real" than to be holy. So now, in their endless quest for Authenticity (TM), they want to emulate the Real People(TM) back in the Old Country (R) by being purposefully apathetic about their faith.
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« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2011, 08:10:22 AM »

I am starting to think that the best layperson should be ignorant & obedient, culturally tradtional (albeit if even as a boorish lout),  & superstitious.

This reminds me of Chinese philosophers writing essays in praise of not using words, or Modernist intellectuals pontificating on what the "common man" wants. It only works if it's a joke.
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« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2011, 10:45:51 PM »

Inasmuch as Och claims to be a communist and Communism and Christianity are diametrically opposed philosophies, I think he's really better of going to the RC.  Half that Church has been taken over by the marxists, so he'll feel much more at  home there.
I am a sort of a Communist, Orthodox of Orthodox too, quite careless religiously and I'm not going anywhere. Definitely. And I like the ochlophobist a lot.  Had he been living in an Orthodox land he would have stayed, since he would have hardly stuck out. But the over-pious & small demographics of former  evangelical turned fathers- quoting- orthodox monarchists and libertarians  wasn't home for him.

I think it's a bit unfair to lump all converts into the uber-conservative camp.  Perhaps in his little corner of the world it was that way, but I've found American converts to be a pretty mixed lot, especially on the politics front.

 Also, I have to wonder... did he read himself into and then out of the Orthodox church?  I saw a week or so ago he was selling off his library and it was pretty extensive.  I rarely followed his blog because it was like reading a 100 page dissertation every time I checked it out (he was that way in the combox of other blogs I followed too).  No thanks.   I know he was pretty popular...but he always came across as a grumpy malcontent to me.  I wouldn't be surprised if in 5 years he's an unhappy Catholic.

To the OP... I don't know of any "famous" Orthodox converts who converted to Catholicism, but I did know one or two former Catholics who converted to Orthodoxy and then reverted back to Catholicism.  They were from mixed marriages and went back to Catholicism to be with their spouses.  I think one ended up coming back to Orthodoxy, but don't know if that stuck since I lost track of them.
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« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2011, 10:50:57 PM »

I am starting to think that the best layperson should be ignorant & obedient, culturally tradtional (albeit if even as a boorish lout),  & superstitious.

This reminds me of Chinese philosophers writing essays in praise of not using words, or Modernist intellectuals pontificating on what the "common man" wants. It only works if it's a joke.
Back to the barrio thing: don't some Muppets live out in the barrio? A tall yellow bird, a blue furry thing that like cookies? I bet they aren't neo-Caths.

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« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2011, 11:23:19 PM »

I am starting to think that the best layperson should be ignorant & obedient, culturally tradtional (albeit if even as a boorish lout),  & superstitious.

This reminds me of Chinese philosophers writing essays in praise of not using words, or Modernist intellectuals pontificating on what the "common man" wants. It only works if it's a joke.
Back to the barrio thing: don't some Muppets live out in the barrio? A tall yellow bird, a blue furry thing that like cookies? I bet they aren't neo-Caths.

In Christ,
Andrew


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« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2011, 11:53:38 PM »

I didn't see this mentioned, but I'm pretty sure he was originally Roman Catholic.  It's not like he converted in to Orthodoxy from Protestantism and then went to Rome.  He converted from Rome to Orthodoxy and then back.

Maybe that doesn't make a difference, but it's less disconcerting to me for some reason.  Like that's where his heart was all along.
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« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2011, 08:23:08 AM »

I didn't see this mentioned, but I'm pretty sure he was originally Roman Catholic.  It's not like he converted in to Orthodoxy from Protestantism and then went to Rome.  He converted from Rome to Orthodoxy and then back.

Maybe that doesn't make a difference, but it's less disconcerting to me for some reason.  Like that's where his heart was all along.
Not that it matters for us, but he was raised Protestant (some sort of Baptist), became a Catholic and later converted to Orthodoxy. He is now returning to the church of his original conversion.
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« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2011, 08:57:45 AM »

Many here at one time or another may have read the Ochlophobist blog which I read periodically but is now closed.  The author had an interesting farewell post which in it he mentioned he was becoming Catholic and I thought had some fairly interesting comments in it.  I was curious if there have been other notable Orthodox converts who then converted to Catholicism and what their reasons were for doing so. 

I wouldn’t consider a person to be a “notable Orthodox convert” merely for having a popular blog.  Its amazing how low standards have become.  I consider long-time reputable Byzantine Rite Catholic monks and renowned patristic scholars like Fr. Gabriel (Bunge) or Fr. Placide (Deseille) to be notable Catholics who converted to the Orthodox Church.  I think the only thing that would compare with such conversions the other way would be for a long-time Orthodox monk or elder on Mt. Athos to leave the Orthodox Church and become Roman Catholic, taking up residence in a Trappist monastery or something, and following up with a book on why the Roman Catholic Church is supposedly the true Church.  I have NEVER heard of such a thing happening, but it would get my attention if it did. 

I’m sure you will find a lot of people who go from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy and back to Roman Catholicism for a variety of reasons, like their RC family, convenience, they left Roman Catholicism for Orthodoxy for the wrong reasons (like the priest abuse scandal or other personal/non-theological reasons), intellectual fascination with Orthodoxy without a desire to live an authentically Orthodox life (fasting, prayer, almsgiving, etc.), converting based on pride and intellectual vanity and being unable to take up the yoke of humility which attracts the grace of God enables one to experience true life in the Church, etc.  Obviously, I am not attributing any of these causes specifically to Ochlophobist, who I do not know, but this thread is not about him specifically.   
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« Reply #58 on: May 06, 2011, 12:49:39 AM »

If you've never been a Catholic before, then you could never understand the enormous magnetic hold which this Church has over your lives (The closest thing that could perhaps compare to this in the religious world would be the relationship between Jews and Judaism or, especially Islam and Muslims.  All other Churches have some pull that they excessive on their flocks and the conscious of their followers, but nothing at all like the magnitude that the RCC exhorts on its adherents, and one time adherents.  I have no idea what causes this, whitier or not it has something to do with the powerful, centralized force which is the Vatican?  The predominating of Catholic schools and the impact that receiving an education in those schools has on a person?  Or just the very culture that is associated with the RCC and the imprint that the Church has made upon the various cultures that it helped to shape and dominate for so many centuries. 

Whatever the reasons may be, cultural, or even psychological, the RCC is a powerful force in the lives of its members, no matter how nominal or lapsed they may be and to break away from her is not an easy thing to master.  Most of the ex Catholics I know seem to either have a burning, intense hatred (At least in public) for the Church and go to great lengths to publically ridicule and cast aspersions on her, or they kind of have a "I'm okay, your okay" mentality towards the Church and whatever religion they are in now.  These represent two differencing ways of, from a psychological perspective dealing with a force which has exerted strong dominance over the individual and which that individual seeks to break away from (The same examples can be used for people who are estranged from their parents, they either try to developer a hatred for them or just ignore them, while still speaking somewhat fondly of past memories).

Some may find it hard to grasp the things that I speak of, but if you are a Catholic, or an ex Catholic then you know exactly where I'm coming from and that the words I write are true.  We hear so much of those who leave the RCC and go over to other religions, but I can't help wondering how many of these ex Catholics eventually end up coming back to the RCC (Or will do so before their death)?  It's not easy leaving the RCC.  In a way its just easier to live with her, even as a nominal member then abandon her so readily and try to pioneer a new spiritual world in another religion.

Just my two cents on this matter.
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« Reply #59 on: May 06, 2011, 12:55:34 AM »

There was Fr. John Mack who I know converted a few years ago.

This was not theological, it was practical. He was twice defrocked in Orthodoxy, once in the Antiochian church and once in the Romanian OCA I believe, both times for causing personal issues with families in his congregations (no sexual abuse, just to be clear).

When he had no new places left to run in Orthodoxy, he decided to be a Byzantine Catholic priest in Sugar Creek, MO. He converted so that he could remain a priest. He was actually serving the one time I attended their congregation in inquiry about Eastern Catholicism during my journey into Orthodoxy. He is an outstanding homilist. At that time they were making plans to have him replace the long standing priest there so that he could return back to the East coast and be around family. Anyway, they found out Mr. Mack before too long and suspended him. I have no idea what he is up to now; he has totally dropped off the radar. He might still live in the Kansas City metro for all that I know.

 I had the pleasure of meeting Fr John Mack when he was chaplain at the Orthodox Christian student  Fellowship when I was at  the University of Kansas (around 10 years ago).  I didn't know him too well and only attended a few fellowship gatherings, but from what I did see, he seemed like a decent and committed priest who seriously wanted to spiritually minister to people.  I don't know the reasons why he left the OC, or if he is even affiliated with the EC's now (I do remember hearing that he moved over to them on the Byzcath forum a few years back).  All I can do is offer my prayers for him and hope that he finds peace of mind and a religious place to pasture in his life.  
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« Reply #60 on: May 06, 2011, 01:33:23 AM »

Quote
What on earth would make you want to leave the church?

It's not me in question, but I think it was noted it wasn't the persistent scandals.  My feeling in reading through the posts that I have is its a combination of competing, self-constructed visions of American Orthodoxy and liturgical fetishization.

Name a time in 2,000 years when the Church didn't have a scandal? I personally feel that he was trying to control everyone. And everyone wasn't having it. I bumped heads with him a few times because he dissed alot of things I personally liked about American Orthodoxy. So what if he doesn't like what we do, who cares! I know he's going to complain about the protestant converts to Rome now too! Watch! If he does then I will simply tell the Roman Catholics he got beef with to ignore him for he just wants to control everyone according to his convictions.
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« Reply #61 on: May 06, 2011, 01:50:25 AM »

I am starting to think that the best layperson should be ignorant & obedient, culturally tradtional (albeit if even as a boorish lout),  & superstitious. Meanwhile those with more totalitarian aspirations can be monarchist (although perhaps an emperor or stalinist tyrant can be interchageable with the times) sanctimonious, pious, "true & traditionalist", clergy of dubious standing which constitute a wonderful grand mosaic of God knows what.

We live in America where there are no kings and queens and where people are educated. Most of us know how to read and write. Therefor the best modern lay person in this country is going to look like modern people who actually live in this country.

I am proud to be an American! If others don't like it then they can kick rocks! Either that or move to a different country!


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« Reply #62 on: May 06, 2011, 02:10:41 AM »

I am a former cradle Catholic.

The biggest hurdle for me and for my friends was the Papacy.

When I encountered Orthodoxy, I knew that this would be my new home. However, the Papacy caused me to delay my entrance into Orthodoxy. During two years of studies, I picked up The Church Teaches by the Jesuits of St. Mary's College and other books, and studied the Papal Powers. What I had been taught at a Catholic university, and what I discovered in my private readings were vastly different. The first doctrine that fell was Papal supremacy because I saw the disconnect between what the early Conciliar Church taught about the election and consecration of Bishops and what the Vatican had imposed through the New Code of Canon Laws and their implementation in 1917 and subsequent revisions. The election and enthronement of the Melkite Bishop of Newton under Vatican control was a good case history for me.  The next doctrine to fall was Papal Infallibility. I was then told by my Catholic Confessor that I was no longer a Catholic.

The next hurdle I suffered was being denied the Sacraments of the Catholic Church when I informed my Catholic Bishop that I was being received into the Orthodox Catechumenate. I had dreams that I was burning in hell fire until my Orthodox Priest told me that God forgives, not the Priest. To reinforce this teaching, he had me read For the Life of the World by Father Alexander Schmemann, may his memory be eternal. Father's words brought holy joy into my heart. With my faith in God strengthened and renewed, I completed the catechumenate and was received by Holy Chrismation.

This book is excellent, so I am providing a link to the publisher: http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?products_id=65

However, my two friends reverted to Catholicism because they could not give up the Papacy and struggled with their strong Catholic culture, especially my Filipino friend. Her family and friends continued to call her on the phone and told her that she was going to burn in hell. I tried to encourage her, but she became very indecisive. One Sunday, she would attend the Orthodox Church and then stay for one month, but the next month she would run to the Catholic Priest and beg for confession. I believe that in her case, it was better that she returned to Catholicism.

 

If you've never been a Catholic before, then you could never understand the enormous magnetic hold which this Church has over your lives (The closest thing that could perhaps compare to this in the religious world would be the relationship between Jews and Judaism or, especially Islam and Muslims.  All other Churches have some pull that they excessive on their flocks and the conscious of their followers, but nothing at all like the magnitude that the RCC exhorts on its adherents, and one time adherents.  I have no idea what causes this, whitier or not it has something to do with the powerful, centralized force which is the Vatican?  The predominating of Catholic schools and the impact that receiving an education in those schools has on a person?  Or just the very culture that is associated with the RCC and the imprint that the Church has made upon the various cultures that it helped to shape and dominate for so many centuries.  

Whatever the reasons may be, cultural, or even psychological, the RCC is a powerful force in the lives of its members, no matter how nominal or lapsed they may be and to break away from her is not an easy thing to master.  Most of the ex Catholics I know seem to either have a burning, intense hatred (At least in public) for the Church and go to great lengths to publically ridicule and cast aspersions on her, or they kind of have a "I'm okay, your okay" mentality towards the Church and whatever religion they are in now.  These represent two differencing ways of, from a psychological perspective dealing with a force which has exerted strong dominance over the individual and which that individual seeks to break away from (The same examples can be used for people who are estranged from their parents, they either try to developer a hatred for them or just ignore them, while still speaking somewhat fondly of past memories).

Some may find it hard to grasp the things that I speak of, but if you are a Catholic, or an ex Catholic then you know exactly where I'm coming from and that the words I write are true.  We hear so much of those who leave the RCC and go over to other religions, but I can't help wondering how many of these ex Catholics eventually end up coming back to the RCC (Or will do so before their death)?  It's not easy leaving the RCC.  In a way its just easier to live with her, even as a nominal member then abandon her so readily and try to pioneer a new spiritual world in another religion.

Just my two cents on this matter.
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« Reply #63 on: May 06, 2011, 03:15:42 AM »

I've known a few, but they all had some personal or parish difficulties that sort of drove them there.

Most of the ex-Orthodox I know either become Protestant, or just stop going to church altogether.
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« Reply #64 on: May 06, 2011, 05:07:04 AM »

I Know several New Calendar Greeks ,Who Don't see a Difference Between Roman Catholicisim , and Orthodoxy..... police
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« Reply #65 on: May 06, 2011, 05:09:27 AM »

I Know several New Calendar Greeks ,Who Don't see a Difference Between Roman Catholicisim , and Orthodoxy..... police

See what this new calendar is doing with people? laugh
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« Reply #66 on: May 06, 2011, 05:16:54 AM »

I Know several New Calendar Greeks ,Who Don't see a Difference Between Roman Catholicisim , and Orthodoxy..... police

See what this new calendar is doing with people? laugh

Their Patriarch In Constantinople Is to Blame For It ,By Courting The Latins and it confuses them, and many Others.... Grin
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« Reply #67 on: May 06, 2011, 04:52:55 PM »

... The next doctrine to fall was Papal Infallibility. I was then told by my Catholic Confessor that I was no longer a Catholic.


...

However, my two friends reverted to Catholicism because they could not give up the Papacy and struggled with their strong Catholic culture, especially my Filipino friend. Her family and friends continued to call her on the phone and told her that she was going to burn in hell.

 Huh

Do you come from a "Traditionalist Catholic" background?
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« Reply #68 on: May 06, 2011, 05:10:24 PM »

You see I have nothing against evangelicals that become Orthodox, leaving behind Protestant posturing and stuff. I cannot stand those that wanna recycle that as if there was anything worth saving in it and "use it in the Church". And such is often the case.

So are you saying that there's nothing worthwhile in it?
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« Reply #69 on: May 06, 2011, 05:15:20 PM »

... The next doctrine to fall was Papal Infallibility. I was then told by my Catholic Confessor that I was no longer a Catholic.


...

However, my two friends reverted to Catholicism because they could not give up the Papacy and struggled with their strong Catholic culture, especially my Filipino friend. Her family and friends continued to call her on the phone and told her that she was going to burn in hell.

 Huh

Do you come from a "Traditionalist Catholic" background?

It could have been Wyatt.  He likes to tell people if they're Catholic or not.
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« Reply #70 on: May 06, 2011, 05:23:09 PM »

... The next doctrine to fall was Papal Infallibility. I was then told by my Catholic Confessor that I was no longer a Catholic.


...

However, my two friends reverted to Catholicism because they could not give up the Papacy and struggled with their strong Catholic culture, especially my Filipino friend. Her family and friends continued to call her on the phone and told her that she was going to burn in hell.

 Huh

Do you come from a "Traditionalist Catholic" background?

It could have been Wyatt.  He likes to tell people if they're Catholic or not.

Now now (wag finger).

Seriously, though, I don't think Wyatt would tell someone that she's going to burn in hell for converting to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #71 on: May 06, 2011, 10:00:40 PM »

It could have been Wyatt.  He likes to tell people if they're Catholic or not.
I like to refer to each Church by the commonly accepted titles (Catholic for us, Orthodox for you).
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« Reply #72 on: May 06, 2011, 10:14:55 PM »

It could have been Wyatt.  He likes to tell people if they're Catholic or not.
I like to refer to each Church by the commonly accepted titles (Catholic for us, Orthodox for you).

So do I.  I was referring to your comments regarding the sedevacantists.

And I was joking.  Lighten up, not everyone is out to get you all the time.
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« Reply #73 on: May 06, 2011, 11:29:43 PM »

So do I.  I was referring to your comments regarding the sedevacantists.
Ok.

And I was joking.  Lighten up, not everyone is out to get you all the time.
I'm not even angry.  angel
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« Reply #74 on: May 06, 2011, 11:44:39 PM »

So do I.  I was referring to your comments regarding the sedevacantists.

There was a conversation on sedevacantists?
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« Reply #75 on: May 07, 2011, 01:21:53 AM »

... The next doctrine to fall was Papal Infallibility. I was then told by my Catholic Confessor that I was no longer a Catholic.


...

However, my two friends reverted to Catholicism because they could not give up the Papacy and struggled with their strong Catholic culture, especially my Filipino friend. Her family and friends continued to call her on the phone and told her that she was going to burn in hell.

 Huh

Do you come from a "Traditionalist Catholic" background?

No, my family background is Maronite although my family was attending the novus ordo.
None of my siblings are now Catholic. All have become Baptists except me. My immediate family attend the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #76 on: May 07, 2011, 01:31:02 AM »

... The next doctrine to fall was Papal Infallibility. I was then told by my Catholic Confessor that I was no longer a Catholic.


...

However, my two friends reverted to Catholicism because they could not give up the Papacy and struggled with their strong Catholic culture, especially my Filipino friend. Her family and friends continued to call her on the phone and told her that she was going to burn in hell.

Do you live in  the south? I know that there are some Maronite communities there (In Atlanta and Birmingham). I could never understand why Orthodox/Catholics or other sacramental Christians would ever convert to an evangelical denomination?  Talk about cultural differences!  It seems like "de evolving" to do something like that, but I guess some people are capable of anything (Some of my relatives included).

 Huh

Do you come from a "Traditionalist Catholic" background?

No, my family background is Maronite although my family was attending the novus ordo.
None of my siblings are now Catholic. All have become Baptists except me. My immediate family attend the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #77 on: May 07, 2011, 01:44:06 AM »

Yes, my family is from the South. Through reading liberal Catholic press, they came to the conclusion that with Baptism, they had the power of the priesthood, so they would watch a certain Sunday TV program and hold up their wheaten wafers which they had purchased. They were quite happy to receive "communion" in this way. They also were involved with "Home Churches." I do not know if those beliefs are evangelical or what, but those beliefs are certainly not Catholic or Orthodox.
 
Do you live in  the south? I know that there are some Maronite communities there (In Atlanta and Birmingham). I could never understand why Orthodox/Catholics or other sacramental Christians would ever convert to an evangelical denomination?  Talk about cultural differences!  It seems like "de evolving" to do something like that, but I guess some people are capable of anything (Some of my relatives included).


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« Reply #78 on: May 07, 2011, 03:57:25 AM »

Grand Duke Vitaut he was jumping from the RC to the EO and backwards several times. King Daniel of Galicia also seems to have jumped a few times.

That's dangerous. He basically double-crossed himself because if he ends up in the EO Church and the RC is right or vice-versa, he will go to hell (both Churches condemn leaving their faith).
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« Reply #79 on: May 07, 2011, 03:59:49 AM »

Grand Duke Vitaut he was jumping from the RC to the EO and backwards several times. King Daniel of Galicia also seems to have jumped a few times.

That's dangerous. He basically double-crossed himself because if he ends up in the EO Church and the RC is right or vice-versa, he will go to hell (both Churches condemn leaving their faith).

Thank goodness that Christ God is our Judge. He knows our hearts.
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« Reply #80 on: May 07, 2011, 08:21:50 AM »

Grand Duke Vitaut he was jumping from the RC to the EO and backwards several times. King Daniel of Galicia also seems to have jumped a few times.

That's dangerous. He basically double-crossed himself because if he ends up in the EO Church and the RC is right or vice-versa, he will go to hell (both Churches condemn leaving their faith).

Not true.

Certainly there is a difference between, on the one hand, someone who breaks off communion with the Catholic Church (e.g. to become Orthodox) and, on the other hand, someone who was never in full communion with the Catholic Church in the first place.

But the Catholic Church does not claim that everyone who leaves goes to hell.
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« Reply #81 on: May 07, 2011, 08:26:14 AM »

... The next doctrine to fall was Papal Infallibility. I was then told by my Catholic Confessor that I was no longer a Catholic.


...

However, my two friends reverted to Catholicism because they could not give up the Papacy and struggled with their strong Catholic culture, especially my Filipino friend. Her family and friends continued to call her on the phone and told her that she was going to burn in hell.

 Huh

Do you come from a "Traditionalist Catholic" background?

Yes, my family is from the South. Through reading liberal Catholic press, they came to the conclusion that with Baptism, they had the power of the priesthood, so they would watch a certain Sunday TV program and hold up their wheaten wafers which they had purchased. They were quite happy to receive "communion" in this way. They also were involved with "Home Churches." I do not know if those beliefs are evangelical or what, but those beliefs are certainly not Catholic or Orthodox.

I guess you've really encountered the whole gamut of extreme conservatism and extreme liberalism in Catholicism.
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« Reply #82 on: May 07, 2011, 10:56:54 AM »

I guess you've really encountered the whole gamut of extreme conservatism and extreme liberalism in Catholicism.
While there is room in the Catholic Church for differences in opinion here and there, unfortunately what her family was/is doing goes completely against Catholic teaching.
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« Reply #83 on: May 07, 2011, 11:30:33 AM »

I guess you've really encountered the whole gamut of extreme conservatism and extreme liberalism in Catholicism.
While there is room in the Catholic Church for differences in opinion here and there, unfortunately what her family was/is doing goes completely against Catholic teaching.

I don't know if you are referring to the communion-by-television or the telling-converts-they-are-going-to-hell, but either way you are absolutely right that it's against Catholic teaching.
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« Reply #84 on: May 07, 2011, 01:04:00 PM »

Grand Duke Vitaut he was jumping from the RC to the EO and backwards several times. King Daniel of Galicia also seems to have jumped a few times.

That's dangerous. He basically double-crossed himself because if he ends up in the EO Church and the RC is right or vice-versa, he will go to hell (both Churches condemn leaving their faith).

Not true.

Certainly there is a difference between, on the one hand, someone who breaks off communion with the Catholic Church (e.g. to become Orthodox) and, on the other hand, someone who was never in full communion with the Catholic Church in the first place.

But the Catholic Church does not claim that everyone who leaves goes to hell.

You should start reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well as other authoritative Catholic documents so you can really learn what your Church teaches...
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« Reply #85 on: May 07, 2011, 06:15:01 PM »

Saved this in my word Document who can or can't be saved in the Catholic Church or if one Should Leave or fail to Join the Catholic Church...

Can a present pope ignore and go against what passed popes declared.....


Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."
Pope Boniface I, Epistle 14.1: "It is clear that this Roman Church is to all churches throughout the world as the head is to the members, and that whoever separates himself from it becomes an exile from the Christian religion, since he ceases to belong to its fellowship."
Pope Pelagius II (578-590): "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord… Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness… Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned… [If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church" (Denzinger, 469).
Saint Gregory the Great (590-604), Moralia: "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved."
Pope Sylvester II, Profession of Faith, June AD 991: "I believe that in Baptism all sins are forgiven, that one which was committed originally as much as those which are voluntarily committed, and I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved."
Pope Innocent III (1198-1216), Profession of Faith prescribed for the Waldensians: "With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe
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« Reply #86 on: May 07, 2011, 06:41:31 PM »



NOTE: Upon my chrismation in Holy Orthodoxy, I joined the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Those of us who are Orthodox are members of the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church,.

Saved this in my word Document who can or can't be saved in the Catholic Church or if one Should Leave or fail to Join the Catholic Church...

Can a present pope ignore and go against what passed popes declared.....


Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."
Pope Boniface I, Epistle 14.1: "It is clear that this Roman Church is to all churches throughout the world as the head is to the members, and that whoever separates himself from it becomes an exile from the Christian religion, since he ceases to belong to its fellowship."
Pope Pelagius II (578-590): "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord… Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness… Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned… [If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church" (Denzinger, 469).
Saint Gregory the Great (590-604), Moralia: "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved."
Pope Sylvester II, Profession of Faith, June AD 991: "I believe that in Baptism all sins are forgiven, that one which was committed originally as much as those which are voluntarily committed, and I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved."
Pope Innocent III (1198-1216), Profession of Faith prescribed for the Waldensians: "With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe
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« Reply #87 on: May 07, 2011, 07:25:41 PM »

Grand Duke Vitaut he was jumping from the RC to the EO and backwards several times. King Daniel of Galicia also seems to have jumped a few times.

That's dangerous. He basically double-crossed himself because if he ends up in the EO Church and the RC is right or vice-versa, he will go to hell (both Churches condemn leaving their faith).

Not true.

Certainly there is a difference between, on the one hand, someone who breaks off communion with the Catholic Church (e.g. to become Orthodox) and, on the other hand, someone who was never in full communion with the Catholic Church in the first place.

But the Catholic Church does not claim that everyone who leaves goes to hell.

You should start reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well as other authoritative Catholic documents so you can really learn what your Church teaches...

Um ... OK.
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« Reply #88 on: May 07, 2011, 07:29:22 PM »

Saved this in my word Document who can or can't be saved in the Catholic Church or if one Should Leave or fail to Join the Catholic Church...

Can a present pope ignore and go against what passed popes declared.....


Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her;

But "joined with Her" doesn't necessarily mean full communion. (If it did, then that would mean not only that ex-Catholics are damned, but everyone who was never Catholic to begin with is damned as well.)
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« Reply #89 on: May 07, 2011, 07:48:30 PM »

OK, it is easy for Catholic apologists to poke fun at UNAM  SANCTAM and CANTATE DOMINO and say their teaching is irregular and that Peter had a momentary lapse of sanity.

But - wait for it!  laugh - here is the Quote Mine of papal teachings through the centuries which shows that UNAM SANCTAM and CANTATE DOMINO are in fact the rock solid teaching of the Vicar of Christ



Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull "Unam sanctam" (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her' (Canticle of Canticles 6:Cool; which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism' (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed… We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pope Eugene IV, "Cantate Domino" (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

Pope Sylvester II, Profession of Faith, June AD 991: "I believe that in Baptism all sins are forgiven, that one which was committed originally as much as those which are voluntarily committed, and I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved."

Pope Innocent III (1198–1216), Profession of Faith prescribed for the Waldensians: "With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved" (Denzinger 792).

Pope Clement VI, Letter "Super Quibusdam" (to Consolator the Catholicos of Armenia), September 20, 1351: "In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside of the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience of the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved… In the ninth place, if you have believed and do believe that all who have raised themselves against the faith of the Roman Church and have died in final impenitence have been damned and have descended to the eternal punishments of hell."

Pope Leo XII (1823–1829), Encyclical "Ubi Primum": "It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth Itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members. For we have a surer word of the prophet, and in writing to you We speak wisdom among the perfect; not the wisdom of this world but the wisdom of God in a mystery. By it we are taught, and by divine faith we hold, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and that no other name under heaven is given to men except the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth in which we must be saved. This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church… For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: 'If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'"

Pope Gregory XVI (1831–1846), Encyclical "Summo Jugiter Studio" (on Mixed marriages), 5-6, May 27, 1832: "You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that very article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation. The words of that celebrated disciple of the Apostles, martyred Saint Ignatius, in his letter to the Philadelphians are relevant to this matter: 'Be not deceived, my brother; if anyone follows a schismatic, he will not attain the inheritance of the kingdom of God.' Moreover, Saint Augustine and the other African bishops who met in the Council of Cirta in the year 412 explained the same thing at greater length: 'Whoever has separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how laudably he lives, will not have eternal life, but has earned the anger of God because of this one crime: that he abandoned his union with Christ' (Epsitle 141). Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise Saint Gregory the Great, who expressly testifies that this is indeed the teaching of the Catholic Church. He says: 'The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved' (Moral. in Job, 16.5). Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of the Lateran IV, these things are written: 'There is one universal Church of the faithful outside of which no one at all is saved.' Finally, the same dogma is expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use (Creed of the Council of Trent), but also that which the Greek Orthodox Church uses (cf. Gregory XIII, Profession 'Sanctissimus') and that which other Eastern Catholics use (cf. Benedict XIV, Profession 'Nuper ad Nos')… We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies."

Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Allocution "Singulari Quadem", December 9, 1854: "Not without sorrow we have learned that another error, no less destructive, has taken possession of some parts of the Catholic world, and has taken up its abode in the souls of many Catholics who think that one should have good hope of the eternal salvation of all those who have never lived in the true Church of Christ. Therefore, they are wont to ask very often what will be the lot and condition of those who have not submitted in any way to the Catholic faith, and, by bringing forward most vain reasons, they make a response favorable to their false opinion. Far be it from Us, Venerable Brethren, to presume on the limits of the divine mercy which is infinite; far from Us, to wish to scrutinize the hidden counsel and "judgements of God" which are "a great abyss" (Ps. 35.7) and cannot be penetrated by human thought. But, as is Our Apostolic Duty, we wish your episcopal solicitude and vigilance to be aroused, so that you will strive as much as you can to drive form the mind of men that impious and equally fatal opinion, namely, that the way of eternal salvation can be found in any religion whatsoever. May you demonstrate with skill and learning in which you excel, to the people entrusted to your care that the dogmas of the Catholic faith are in no wise opposed to divine mercy and justice.

"For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains 'we shall see God as He is' (1 John 3.2), we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" (Eph. 4.5); it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.


"But, just as the way of charity demands, let us pour forth continual prayers that all nations everywhere may be converted to Christ; and let us be devoted to the common salvation of men in proportion to our strength, 'for the hand of the Lord is not shortened' (Isa. 9.1) and the gifts of heavenly grace will not be wanting to those who sincerely wish and ask to be refreshed by this light."[4]

Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Encyclical "Singulari Quidem" March 17, 1856): "Teach that just as there is only one God, one Christ, one Holy Spirit, so there is also only one truth which is divinely revealed. There is only one divine faith which is the beginning of salvation for mankind and the basis of all justification, the faith by which the just person lives and without which it is impossible to please God and come to the community of His children (Romans 1; Hebrews 11; Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter Cool. There is only one true, holy, Catholic Church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded on Peter by the word of the Lord (St. Cyprian, Epistle 43), outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church (ibid, On the Unity of the Catholic Church). ... Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control."[5]

Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur moerore", August 10, 1863: "And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life. Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching. It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well-known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church, and who persistently separate themselves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, to whom 'the guardianship of the vine has been entrusted by the Savior,' (Council of Chalcedon, Letter to Pope Leo I) cannot obtain eternal salvation. The words of Christ are clear enough: 'And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican' (Matthew 18:17); 'He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that dispeth you, despiseth Me; and he that dispiseth Me, despiseth Him that sent Me' (Luke 10:16); 'He that believeth not shall be condemned' (Mark 16:16); 'He that doth not believe, is already judged" (John 3:18); 'He that is not with Me, is against Me; and he that gathereth not with Me, scattereth' (Luke 11:23). The Apostle Paul says that such persons are 'perverted and self-condemned' (Titus 3:11); the Prince of the Apostles calls the 'false prophets… who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction' (2 Peter 2:1)."[6]

Pope Pius IX The "Syllabus of Errors", attached to Encyclical Quanta Cura, 1864: [The following are prescribed errors:] "16. Men can, in the cult of any religion, find the way of eternal salvation and attain eternal salvation. - Encyclical Qui pluribus, November 9, 1846.
"17. One ought to at least have good hope for the eternal salvation of all those who in no way dwell in the true Church of Christ. - Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863, etc."

Pope Leo XIII (1878–1903), Encyclical Annum Ingressi Sumus: "This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church."

idem, Encyclical "Sapientiae Christianae": "He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God."

Pope St. Pius X (1903–1914), Encyclical "Jucunda Sane":  "It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation."

Pope Benedict XV (1914–1922), Encyclical "Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum": "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."

Pope Pius XI (1922–1939), Encyclical "Mortalium Animos": "The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation… Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors."

Pope Pius XII (1939–1958), Encyclical "Humani Generis", August 12, 1950: "Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation."

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« Reply #90 on: May 07, 2011, 08:11:49 PM »

OK, it is easy for Catholic apologists to poke fun at UNAM  SANCTAM and CANTATE DOMINO and say their teaching is irregular and that Peter had a momentary lapse of sanity.

I think, if you read my post more carefully, you'll see that I was neither poking fun at Cantate Domino nor claiming that Peter had a momentary lapse of sanity.
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« Reply #91 on: May 07, 2011, 08:18:44 PM »

OK, it is easy for Catholic apologists to poke fun at UNAM  SANCTAM and CANTATE DOMINO and say their teaching is irregular and that Peter had a momentary lapse of sanity.

I think, if you read my post more carefully, you'll see that I was neither poking fun at Cantate Domino nor claiming that Peter had a momentary lapse of sanity.

Apologies.  That was a repeat of an older post and I ought to have edited the first sentences.  Nevertheless, the quote mine is kind of convincing of what has been Peter's consistent teaching through the august lips of his successors.   Do you know I am so old, so pre-Vatican II, that I remember the days when Italian newspapers would use the phrase "august lips" when reporting the Pontiff's words!   Smiley
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« Reply #92 on: May 07, 2011, 08:22:17 PM »

Fr.. Hristos Voskrese ....Thank's I saved it in my word Document as well what you posted....


What Rob mention above.... Roll Eyes Is this the reason many catholic's fear leaving the catholic Church ,due to fear of Damnations, because of the pronouncments of the popes.....I don't know if the Catholic Church preaches this in the present time . But many young may of heard this from older generation Catholics about leaving there Church....Can a Church Use Fear to keep it's Partitioners from Wandering under the threat of damnation....
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« Reply #93 on: May 07, 2011, 08:42:01 PM »

Fr.. Hristos Voskrese ....Thank's I saved it in my word Document as well what you posted....


What Rob mention above.... Roll Eyes Is this the reason many catholic's fear leaving the catholic Church ,due to fear of Damnations, because of the pronouncments of the popes.....I don't know if the Catholic Church preaches this in the present time . But many young may of heard this from older generation Catholics about leaving there Church....Can a Church Use Fear to keep it's Partitioners from Wandering under the threat of damnation....

Good question ... but, to be fair, I've heard a number of Orthodox refer to ex-Orthodox as "apostates", whereas I've very rarely heard Catholics refer to ex-Catholics as "apostates".
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« Reply #94 on: May 08, 2011, 05:27:32 PM »

Fr.. Hristos Voskrese ....Thank's I saved it in my word Document as well what you posted....


What Rob mention above.... Roll Eyes Is this the reason many catholic's fear leaving the catholic Church ,due to fear of Damnations, because of the pronouncments of the popes.....I don't know if the Catholic Church preaches this in the present time . But many young may of heard this from older generation Catholics about leaving there Church....Can a Church Use Fear to keep it's Partitioners from Wandering under the threat of damnation....

Yes, this fear of damnation is a factor, for some anyway in not departing from the RCC.  However there is a much stronger cultural attachment that prevents many from leaving the Catholic Church, something which seems much stronger then it does with those in other Christian denominations.  This is why I could only compare the pull that the RCC has on her followers to that Islam or Judaism has on theirs. 
Its certainly not just "fear of damnation" that keeps people attached to Catholicism (Even if only nominally).  I highly doubt that most RC's even think on such terms, at least these days. 
The pull of Catholicism on the soul of an individual is something that, unless you were born into it It cannot be adequately described.
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« Reply #95 on: May 08, 2011, 05:46:04 PM »

If I might address two things from this thread:

I was never disciplined in any way in either the OCA or the AOANA.  While in the AOANA my godfather was disciplined by Englewood, and a friend from my parish here in Memphis got a nasty letter from Englewood, but we could never figure out why I was not disciplined in any way by Englewood, other than the fact (or so we were told) that at one point Englewood thought that the Ochlophobist was written by my godfather and not by me.  In any event, I left both the OCA and the AOANA in good standing and was a member of GOArch in good standing until I left Orthodoxy.  Anyone who suggests anything otherwise can feel free to contact St. John's Orthodox Church in Memphis (AOANA) and ask them about my transfer of membership both to the AOANA and out of it.

Secondly, the church in the barrio is one of three RC parishes of about the same driving distance from my house.  For the first time in many years, I do not have to drive through or to a bourgeois neighborhood to get to church.  But that refreshment is all part of my usual affect.  Keep it real homey's.

For the first time in many years, I do not have to drive through or to a bourgeois neighborhood to get to church. 

Nice.   Obviously you've missed a sermon or two.
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« Reply #96 on: May 08, 2011, 05:49:57 PM »

If I might address two things from this thread:

I was never disciplined in any way in either the OCA or the AOANA.  While in the AOANA my godfather was disciplined by Englewood, and a friend from my parish here in Memphis got a nasty letter from Englewood, but we could never figure out why I was not disciplined in any way by Englewood, other than the fact (or so we were told) that at one point Englewood thought that the Ochlophobist was written by my godfather and not by me.  In any event, I left both the OCA and the AOANA in good standing and was a member of GOArch in good standing until I left Orthodoxy.  Anyone who suggests anything otherwise can feel free to contact St. John's Orthodox Church in Memphis (AOANA) and ask them about my transfer of membership both to the AOANA and out of it.

Secondly, the church in the barrio is one of three RC parishes of about the same driving distance from my house.  For the first time in many years, I do not have to drive through or to a bourgeois neighborhood to get to church.  But that refreshment is all part of my usual affect.  Keep it real homey's.

For the first time in many years, I do not have to drive through or to a bourgeois neighborhood to get to church. 

Nice.   Obviously you've missed a sermon or two.

Reverse class-consciousness [snobbery] is about as noxious as reverse racism and both equally prideful and arrogant... Cool...Kinda like the monk who kicks somebody's butt up a row so that they can be LAST in line.
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« Reply #97 on: May 09, 2011, 01:04:23 AM »

Fr.. Hristos Voskrese ....Thank's I saved it in my word Document as well what you posted....


What Rob mention above.... Roll Eyes Is this the reason many catholic's fear leaving the catholic Church ,due to fear of Damnations, because of the pronouncments of the popes.....I don't know if the Catholic Church preaches this in the present time . But many young may of heard this from older generation Catholics about leaving there Church....Can a Church Use Fear to keep it's Partitioners from Wandering under the threat of damnation....

Good question ... but, to be fair, I've heard a number of Orthodox refer to ex-Orthodox as "apostates", whereas I've very rarely heard Catholics refer to ex-Catholics as "apostates".

Where I live, there are a bunch of Opus Dei chapters. Some of my friends who attended Opus Dei meetings accused me of being apostate after I had become an Orthodox catechumen, so they contacted the San Diego based Catholic Answers. I received several phone calls from the staff at CA begging me to return to Catholicism as they feared for my salvation.
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« Reply #98 on: May 09, 2011, 08:38:44 AM »

Fr.. Hristos Voskrese ....Thank's I saved it in my word Document as well what you posted....


What Rob mention above.... Roll Eyes Is this the reason many catholic's fear leaving the catholic Church ,due to fear of Damnations, because of the pronouncments of the popes.....I don't know if the Catholic Church preaches this in the present time . But many young may of heard this from older generation Catholics about leaving there Church....Can a Church Use Fear to keep it's Partitioners from Wandering under the threat of damnation....

Good question ... but, to be fair, I've heard a number of Orthodox refer to ex-Orthodox as "apostates", whereas I've very rarely heard Catholics refer to ex-Catholics as "apostates".

Where I live, there are a bunch of Opus Dei chapters. Some of my friends who attended Opus Dei meetings accused me of being apostate after I had become an Orthodox catechumen, so they contacted the San Diego based Catholic Answers. I received several phone calls from the staff at CA begging me to return to Catholicism as they feared for my salvation.

I'm sorry to hear that.

But, to be fair, the fact that those friends -- the ones who called you an apostate -- were interested in Opus Dei doesn't mean they represent Opus Dei's positions.
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« Reply #99 on: May 09, 2011, 11:10:28 AM »

There is a side to these converting converts that I haven't seen, and would like to add from my own experience. Those of us who would be Orthodox if it were an available option, and so instead choose to join the Latin tradition. If any of my posts have been read, I and my family had been working for months to bring an Orthodox mission to my area. We were pentecostal prior to looking into the RCC, and eventually chose Orthodoxy. The parish we worked with was amazing, and I love each and everyone of them. We had began a bi-monthly Reader's Service with one of the members from the parish making the long drive to our home. However, over the months, as less and less people came to the service's, we realized that Orthodoxy was not gaining a foothold in our area. We have since decided to end our inquiry for the present, and begin attending the local Catholic church here in our community. We love the Orthodox faith, but the distance, as well as many personal matters, have made it impossible at this time to continue. I post this to say that not all who eventually leave Orthodoxy do so due to theological issues or fear, but due to the fact that living outside an Orthodox community makes learning of the faith and living it a burden that many cannot handle. I love the Catholic faith as well, as the only two Faiths to truly have Apostolic Succession, I don't believe I am giving up anything..but am moving toward my greatest opportunity to joining the True Body of Christ in Sacramental union. I'll not give the East and West two-lung cliche...but simply say that God has made a way for us to still partake of the Ancient Mystery, though our hearts are broken for the loss of the mission.
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« Reply #100 on: May 09, 2011, 11:23:35 AM »

I love the Catholic faith as well, as the only two Faiths to truly have Apostolic Succession . . .

If by the two you mean the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, then what about the Oriental Orthodox Church and the Assyrian Church of the East? Why do you think they do not truly have Apostolic Succession?
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« Reply #101 on: May 09, 2011, 12:17:03 PM »

I love the Catholic faith as well, as the only two Faiths to truly have Apostolic Succession . . .

If by the two you mean the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, then what about the Oriental Orthodox Church and the Assyrian Church of the East? Why do you think they do not truly have Apostolic Succession?

I did not mean that to be polemic, I am not very familiar with either of the other Churches, are they not in Communion with Rome or the EOC? Please forgive my ignorance of them and their claims of Apostolic Succession. I did not mean to offend anyone with that statement, and I do apologize.
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« Reply #102 on: May 09, 2011, 02:56:04 PM »

I love the Catholic faith as well, as the only two Faiths to truly have Apostolic Succession . . .

If by the two you mean the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, then what about the Oriental Orthodox Church and the Assyrian Church of the East? Why do you think they do not truly have Apostolic Succession?

I did not mean that to be polemic, I am not very familiar with either of the other Churches, are they not in Communion with Rome or the EOC? Please forgive my ignorance of them and their claims of Apostolic Succession. I did not mean to offend anyone with that statement, and I do apologize.

I, too, noticed your statement about "the only two Faiths to truly have Apostolic Succession". I figured you weren't counting small groups like the PNCC and the ACoE. (And the Oriental Orthodox are often included when people say "the Orthodox".)
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« Reply #103 on: May 09, 2011, 03:57:40 PM »

Peter, you are correct. I unfortunately did lump the Oriental Orthodox Church alongside the EOC. I apologize for that. I googled both to get a quick idea of them, and it appears that the ACoE left the Church around 1550?? I will admit that I don't have any direct knowledge or any experience with either church, as being from the Appalachians in the US doesn't afford much variety in local faith communities. In all honesty, until I left the pentecostal Church of God denomination in search of the true ancient faith, I didn't even know that there was another outside Catholicism. I discovered Orthodoxy while studying for the roots of Christianity. I apologize if anyone was offended by my ignorance of their church, no intention was meant. But I will ask...if Apostolic Succession is indeed in all these churches...why all the disunity?
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« Reply #104 on: May 09, 2011, 04:40:06 PM »

. . . it appears that the ACoE left the Church around 1550??

You mean around 1550 years ago? Yes.
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« Reply #105 on: May 09, 2011, 04:45:21 PM »

It's mostly authority issues.

The Pope of the Roman Catholic Church started advancing his personal authority over the rest of the Church (including the other Patriarchs). This led to the changing of the Nicene Creed, with the Pope adding the word "filioque" (meaning "and from the Son"). The Roman Creed now reads, "Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum, et vivificantem: qui ex Patre Filioque procedit" ("And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and giver of life, who from the Father and the Son proceeds").

Oriental Orthodox Christians deny the authority of the Council of Chalcedon. For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Chalcedon and http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/east_orth.aspx

It appears that the Assyrian Church of the East also disagrees with the Council of Chalcedon.
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« Reply #106 on: May 09, 2011, 04:47:46 PM »

It appears that the Assyrian Church of the East also disagrees with the Council of Chalcedon.

You should google 431
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« Reply #107 on: May 09, 2011, 04:53:11 PM »

It appears that the Assyrian Church of the East also disagrees with the Council of Chalcedon.

They don't accept it because they didn't take part in it, but generally speaking, they like its theological pronouncements.
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« Reply #108 on: May 09, 2011, 05:41:21 PM »

It appears that the Assyrian Church of the East also disagrees with the Council of Chalcedon.

You should google 431

So, they broke after the Council of Ephesus? Why's that?
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« Reply #109 on: May 09, 2011, 05:42:47 PM »

It appears that the Assyrian Church of the East also disagrees with the Council of Chalcedon.

You should google 431

So, they broke after the Council of Ephesus? Why's that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorian_Schism
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« Reply #110 on: May 09, 2011, 05:46:30 PM »

It appears that the Assyrian Church of the East also disagrees with the Council of Chalcedon.

You should google 431

So, they broke after the Council of Ephesus? Why's that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorian_Schism

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« Reply #111 on: May 09, 2011, 06:24:21 PM »

Peter, you are correct. I unfortunately did lump the Oriental Orthodox Church alongside the EOC. I apologize for that.

Don't be too hard on yourself ...


From the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops:
Quote
...
For our fellow Christians
We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ's prayer for us "that they may all be one" (Jn 17:21).

Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 § 4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 § 3).

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/mass/communion.shtml

Notice that in that list they just say "the Orthodox Churches" rather than separately mentioning EO and OO.
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« Reply #112 on: October 08, 2011, 02:54:57 AM »

Many here at one time or another may have read the Ochlophobist blog which I read periodically but is now closed.  The author had an interesting farewell post which in it he mentioned he was becoming Catholic and I thought had some fairly interesting comments in it.  I was curious if there have been other notable Orthodox converts who then converted to Catholicism and what their reasons were for doing so.  There was Fr. John Mack who I know converted a few years ago.

The author of the Western Rite blog http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/ converted (reverted?) to the Roman Catholic Church in the last year or two.  Not much has been said on this, I found out by happenstance.  But this does explain why nothing has been added since 2009 to this blog.
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« Reply #113 on: October 08, 2011, 03:55:40 AM »

I have seen a couple of commenters say that Och is reverting. If that is the case, I can easily see how someone who converted to Catholicism in the first place decided to return to it, especially considering how disgusted he was with American Orthodoxy.

And he's happier with american Catholicism? What was his major beef I wonder...probably jurisdictionalism or ethnocentrism.
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« Reply #114 on: October 08, 2011, 10:50:54 AM »

Hahaha. I've never heard of this guy's blog, but if what's in this thread is indicative of it, I'm truly sad that I missed it. That "barrio" comment had me in stitches. Very glad I found this thread. I needed a laugh.

That said, the search for "authenticity" (~ no 'bourgeois' white people?) in all things, when extended into religion, always seems to produce this kind of thing. The highs are higher and the lows are lower, given how much of your own ego is on the line. You found THE CHURCH, then found out it wasn't "authentic" in the way you'd like it to be, so now you found THE CHURCH somewhere else that more closely matches what you think an "authentic" church should look like. It's not about the church; it's about you and the obsession with real religion (or politics/music/fashion/ice cream/whatever). No doubt I've been guilty of this same mindset before (maybe still am, I don't know), but I hope I've been slow and deliberate enough in approaching the Orthodox church that I've burned through this kind of anticipation ahead of actually attending any liturgies. (It'd be kind of hard not to, since my last Catholic Mass was attended in July of 2009, but my first Coptic liturgy not until August of this year. By the time I got there, it was more "Finally, I can stop wondering about this and start learning about it first-hand" than "Finally -- the most authentic, truest church ever!")

I have never heard of any prominent American or other Orthodox person converting to Catholicism. Perhaps more who are prominent in their own minds, but that's internet fame for ya. Anytime a convert from Orthodoxy would show up on any of the Catholic sites I used to follow, they'd sort of get the rock star or VIP treatment. I remember that when one of the Assyrian Church of the East parishes united with Rome a few years ago, RCs behaved like it was the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy or something. I tried to point out that this was probably more of an indication of the dire straits of the ACoE than of the inherent strength in Roman theological positions (they've got us all beat in pure numbers, that's for sure), but was mostly ignored or told to stop being a wet blanket. Similarly, I have known people who take the words of James Likoudis (probably the most famous EO-turned-RC, in terms of visibility if not weight of opinion) as though they were not only gospel, but also somehow represent faithfully the position of the EO.

In other words, wherever you look, there's a whole lot of wishful thinking going on...
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« Reply #115 on: October 08, 2011, 06:10:58 PM »

It's not about the church; it's about you and the obsession with real religion (or politics/music/fashion/ice cream/whatever).

I think you smacked it on the head Dzheremi.  Some of us have an obsessive need to always be right, especially to be right with God.  I mean who knows, we could always go to Hell.. and that is scary to some people (such as myself).  In a family split, there's always bound to be misunderstandings on both sides.  Sometimes one is deliberately making up lies, other times it's simply due to a lack of communication.  But more often than not, both sides seem to misunderstand each other.. or have misconceptions about each other for whatever reason.  I despise the Protestant-oriented Masses.. but my Anglo-Saxon roots still long for the fullness of that Western tradition.  

  However given our current understandings, our estimates of going to Heaven looks like a high possibility no matter what communion (Roman/EC/OC or EO/OO).  So I suppose really we shouldn't worry about it... we're all schismatics (in someone's eyes) anyways.. and somebody's a heretic to somebody else..
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« Reply #116 on: October 09, 2011, 08:33:18 PM »

It's not about the church; it's about you and the obsession with real religion (or politics/music/fashion/ice cream/whatever).

Brilliant, as usual Jeremy, but unfortunately you've been beat by a few years  Smiley : C. S. Lewis says almost the same thing in Screwtape Letters:

"Males are best turned into gluttons with the help of their vanity. They ought to be made to think themselves very knowing about food, to pique themselves on having found the only restaurant in the town where steaks are really "properly" cooked. What begins as vanity can then be gradually turned into habit. But, however you approach it, the great thing is to bring him into the state in which the denial of any one indulgence—it matters not which, champagne or tea, sole colbert or cigarettes—"puts him out", for then his charity, justice, and obedience are all at your mercy."

Of course here he's talking about food, but the same philosophy can be applied to Churches, in a way beyond searching for doctrinal purity and instead searching for an idealized "real" church. Screwtape also says some interesting things about parishes that I think apply here:

"In the first place the parochial organisation should always be attacked, because, being a unity of place and not of likings, it brings people of different classes and psychology together in the kind of unity the Enemy desires. The congregational principle, on the other hand, makes each church into a kind of club, and finally, if all goes well, into a coterie or faction. In the second place, the search for a "suitable" church makes the man a critic where the Enemy wants him to be a pupil. What He wants of the layman in church is an attitude which may, indeed, be critical in the sense of rejecting what is false or unhelpful, but which is wholly uncritical in the sense that it does not appraise—does not waste time in thinking about what it rejects, but lays itself open in uncommenting, humble receptivity to any nourishment that is going. (You see how grovelling, how unspiritual, how irredeemably vulgar He is!) This attitude, especially during sermons, creates the condition (most hostile to our whole policy) in which platitudes can become really audible to a human soul. There is hardly any sermon, or any book, which may not be dangerous to us if it is received in this temper. So pray bestir yourself and send this fool the round of the neighbouring churches as soon as possible. Your record up to date has not given us much satisfaction."

Anytime we agree with Screwtape, we aught to take a look at ourselves.
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« Reply #117 on: October 09, 2011, 09:52:42 PM »

Oh, I didn't think it was something I'd thought up anyway (I was thinking more about the impulse described by Fr. Seraphim Rose's "essentialism", which is more or less the same obsession expressed in a slightly different way), but thanks so much for that passage. I've never read "Screwtape Letters", so I wasn't aware of it, but I agree with what you've posted.
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« Reply #118 on: October 09, 2011, 10:23:33 PM »

It appears that the Assyrian Church of the East also disagrees with the Council of Chalcedon.

They don't accept it because they didn't take part in it, but generally speaking, they like its theological pronouncements.
Like the anathemas against Nestorius?
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« Reply #119 on: October 10, 2011, 12:09:28 AM »

Oh, I didn't think it was something I'd thought up anyway (I was thinking more about the impulse described by Fr. Seraphim Rose's "essentialism", which is more or less the same obsession expressed in a slightly different way), but thanks so much for that passage. I've never read "Screwtape Letters", so I wasn't aware of it, but I agree with what you've posted.

I figured you didn't, but I thought the passage pertinent and was just connecting it to what you'd said.

For those who might not know, The Screwtape Letters are fictional letters C. S. Lewis wrote as if a senior demon is giving his 'nephew' tips on tempting a soul to damnation. Thus, everything in the book is written in negative - what we'd consider good, Screwtape labels evil, he calls God "The Enemy" and Satan "Our Father Below". He makes references to "The Lowerarchy" and praises vice. Lewis never claims he is presenting an accurate portrayal of hell (he denies it actually) but it is an interesting read to think about the subtle ways in which the adversary tries to ensnare us, giving good insight into our own nature and some revealing ways in which we don't normally think demons would operate, but do.

Thus, if we're agreeing with Screwtape (and it seems as though the gentleman discussed earlier in this thread is) we should take a very hard look at our own actions.
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« Reply #120 on: October 11, 2011, 02:47:57 PM »

If you've never been a Catholic before, then you could never understand the enormous magnetic hold which this Church has over your lives (The closest thing that could perhaps compare to this in the religious world would be the relationship between Jews and Judaism or, especially Islam and Muslims.  All other Churches have some pull that they excessive on their flocks and the conscious of their followers, but nothing at all like the magnitude that the RCC exhorts on its adherents, and one time adherents.  I have no idea what causes this, whitier or not it has something to do with the powerful, centralized force which is the Vatican?  The predominating of Catholic schools and the impact that receiving an education in those schools has on a person?  Or just the very culture that is associated with the RCC and the imprint that the Church has made upon the various cultures that it helped to shape and dominate for so many centuries. 

Whatever the reasons may be, cultural, or even psychological, the RCC is a powerful force in the lives of its members, no matter how nominal or lapsed they may be and to break away from her is not an easy thing to master.  Most of the ex Catholics I know seem to either have a burning, intense hatred (At least in public) for the Church and go to great lengths to publically ridicule and cast aspersions on her, or they kind of have a "I'm okay, your okay" mentality towards the Church and whatever religion they are in now.  These represent two differencing ways of, from a psychological perspective dealing with a force which has exerted strong dominance over the individual and which that individual seeks to break away from (The same examples can be used for people who are estranged from their parents, they either try to developer a hatred for them or just ignore them, while still speaking somewhat fondly of past memories).

Some may find it hard to grasp the things that I speak of, but if you are a Catholic, or an ex Catholic then you know exactly where I'm coming from and that the words I write are true.  We hear so much of those who leave the RCC and go over to other religions, but I can't help wondering how many of these ex Catholics eventually end up coming back to the RCC (Or will do so before their death)?  It's not easy leaving the RCC.  In a way its just easier to live with her, even as a nominal member then abandon her so readily and try to pioneer a new spiritual world in another religion.

Just my two cents on this matter.

I know its a bit late but I totally agree with this. There are a multitude of reasons I can think of as to why this is the case from my own experience so YMMV. This has to do pertaining to a 'conversion' to Orthodoxy. I have grown to prefer the Byzantine Liturgy over even the EF mass, let alone the NO which   even done in the most orthodox and reverent manner possible, seems impossibly banal. Eastern Catholic parishes just look and feel odd inside, almost barren. The music for the Ruthenian Liturgy is very lovely and sometimes I prefer it to the Russian/OCA parish I go to (though not to a MP Russian parish (ROCOR)) but the spirituality is lacking, almost always less solemn. The Melkites are typically a bit closer to the ideal but they arent perfect and its hard to put a finger on what Im thinking or feeling.  So in short I prefer going to Orthodox Liturgies all around. Doubts linger in my mind to take the profession of faith however.  Why mohamedism didnt get to the West, nor communism much latter, the more beautiful art, liturature, and especially music (Liturgical or non Liturgical 'church' music and even secular music) all developed in the west gives me pause. The better higher learning institutions were developed in the west (Oxford for instance started out as a Benedictine Monastery). Not to mention Mathew 16 which clearly makes Peter the rock by Christ changing his name to Rock for crying out loud not his confession. But then what of the Filioque? Pope Leo the (??) who was theologically very gifted putting up silver plaques in St. Peter's Basilica the creed without the Filioque, while the dumb ass Charlemagne saying it needs to be in there despite not one but two ecumenical councils saying it doesnt belong (1st and 8th I believe). The sign of the cross  backwards, unmarried priests, indulgences, new doctrines produced 1800 years after the Ascension of Christ... protestants... etc... etc... Now Im not sure these are heretical(except for the protastants) per se but they are not Orthodox.

It is very confusing and to me no clear winner.  Part of a solace I have is that I believe the Orthodox Church to be part of the Catholic Church as the Roman Catholic church is PART of the Catholic Church. Perhaps the more ancient Catholic Church. So yes the Catholic church does have quite a hold on one to be sure...
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« Reply #121 on: August 24, 2013, 08:18:13 PM »

Inasmuch as Och claims to be a communist and Communism and Christianity are diametrically opposed philosophies, I think he's really better of going to the RC.  Half that Church has been taken over by the marxists, so he'll feel much more at  home there.
I am a sort of a Communist, Orthodox of Orthodox too, quite careless religiously

Careless enough to hang around on internet forums telling everyone else why they should be careless too.  Smiley
I do not take any of this idle talk that seriously. It's like others like talking about baseball  or beer.

I defy you to find someone who regularly participates in an internet forum about baseball and beer, and who is not deeply interested in the subject.
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