Author Topic: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?  (Read 4258 times)

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Offline Robb

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Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« on: May 02, 2011, 01:54:48 AM »
Is the Melkite Greek Catholic Church in America considered as liberal as the AOCA is?  Are they about the same on issues such as bending the rules with liturgy and forbidding priest from wearing cassocks on the street?
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2011, 03:35:11 AM »
roflcopter, i'm an AOCA and i'm slightly offended... :-[

Offline Agabus

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2011, 09:21:37 AM »
roflcopter, i'm an AOCA and i'm slightly offended... :-[
You're also in the most conservative diocese. ;)

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Offline Samn!

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2011, 10:19:07 AM »
In my experience, the Melkite Greek Catholics in the US are often somewhat more liturgically traditional than the Antiochian Archdiocese, likely because their membership includes a fair number of Latin Catholics who transferred after being fed up with Latin liturgical chaos. However, in the Middle East it's very much the opposite. Outside of a couple monasteries, Greek Catholic liturgies in the Middle East are often radically shortened or otherwise altered or Latinized. Many churches lack iconostases, etc. Not to mention their practice of receiving communion by intinction, a result of French paranoia about germs in the 1930's......

Offline Robb

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2011, 04:14:25 PM »
So the Melkites use unleavened bread in the Middle East (Or is it the Maronites that your talking about)?
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Offline arimethea

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2011, 04:19:01 PM »
Those who you refer to as liberal in the Antiochian Archdiocese in North America, do not see a difference between the Melkites and the Orthodox. This is part of the issue. This groups may be a very visible group but, they are small in number and great in age.
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Offline Samn!

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2011, 04:22:43 PM »
They use leavened bread, but they receive it by intinction, that is dipped in the wine rather than spooned out from the chalice. Apparently this was under the influence of French priests who were appalled by the apparent lack of hygiene in the Orthodox practice...

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2011, 10:10:25 PM »
They use leavened bread, but they receive it by intinction, that is dipped in the wine rather than spooned out from the chalice. Apparently this was under the influence of French priests who were appalled by the apparent lack of hygiene in the Orthodox practice...

Whether dipped or spooned, both are intinction.
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2011, 10:23:51 PM »
Do the Melkites in the Eparchy of Newton have altar girls? I could have swore I saw altar girls in the Canadian Eparchy.

Offline ag_vn

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2011, 02:22:17 AM »
Not sure about the Melkites, but Antiochians have altar girls in Lebanon (although not everywhere) and in Germany.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2011, 02:25:22 AM »
I simply cannot believe that the Antiochians are liberal.

Offline WetCatechumen

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2011, 02:32:36 AM »
Not sure about the Melkites, but Antiochians have altar girls in Lebanon (although not everywhere) and in Germany.

The Maronites do too. As an American Roman Catholic, I guess you can thank me for it. We started it (without permission).

Sorry. :(
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2011, 02:48:13 AM »
Not sure about the Melkites, but Antiochians have altar girls in Lebanon (although not everywhere) and in Germany.

Source, please.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 02:48:27 AM by Alveus Lacuna »


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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2011, 04:29:16 AM »
I'm perfectly OK with this. Why had female Deacons, why not to have female Subdeacons, Readers or Acolytes?
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2011, 05:00:19 AM »
Why had female Deacons, why not to have female Subdeacons, Readers or Acolytes?

Because the female Deaconate was a non-liturgical function (essentially ministering to women where it would have been inappropriate for male clergy to do so). Subdeacons, Readers and Acolytes have no function outside of the context of liturgy.

That being said, I don't understand why so many people are shocked and appalled because a couple of churches here and there let a little girl carry a candle around when its the norm in nearly all non-Greek churches to have women acting as Readers (with the exception of the Epistle reading) and Chanters. Shows how 'liberal' and 'traditional' have little to do with following Church tradition, but correspond to 'unusual' and 'commonplace'.

Offline synLeszka

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2011, 05:18:56 AM »
Do the truest of Orthodox, the old Believers have female lectors?

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2011, 05:41:46 AM »
Because the female Deaconate was a non-liturgical function (essentially ministering to women where it would have been inappropriate for male clergy to do so). Subdeacons, Readers and Acolytes have no function outside of the context of liturgy.

Communing in front of the altar table isn't a liturgical function?

Quote
its the norm in nearly all non-Greek churches to have women acting as Readers (with the exception of the Epistle reading)

Women read Epistle at my Parish although no one is a tonsured reader.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2011, 05:53:51 AM »
Do the truest of Orthodox, the old Believers have female lectors?

The truest of them don't even have priests, so not sure how reliable they are when it comes to the question of correct liturgical practice.

More traditional groups do not have female lectors. Others, like the Church of the Nativity in Erie, do. The reasons they give for this is the lack of men during wartime which meant women had to fill in for them - it's a recent development.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 06:02:59 AM by Orthodox11 »

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2011, 05:55:58 AM »
Communing in front of the altar table isn't a liturgical function?

No, it's receiving Holy Communion in the altar. Emperors/Empresses did the same.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2011, 10:20:57 AM »
Palm Sunday 2011, St. George Antiochian Church Berlin:
http://antiocheurope.com/Images/Albums/Palm%20Day%20in%20Berlin-PhotoAlbum.html

Butzbach:
http://antiocheurope.com/Images/Albums/Butzbach-PhotoAlbum02.html

Palm Sunday 2009, St. George Antiochian Church Berlin:
http://antiocheurope.com/Ar/News-2009/Germany/Palm-day2009.html

Munster-Osnabruck parish:
http://antiocheurope.com/Ar/News%202008/25-10-2008.html

Achim parish:
http://www.rum-orthodox.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Itemid=1

Berlin:
http://www.rum-orthodox.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=87&Itemid=1

Al Saydeh (Our Lady) Church, Ashrafieh, Beirut:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x70ecvRBuc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7R9YWFYJ-s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0PjePaqvWE

I don't see any clear indication that the females when behind the iconostasis in any of the pictures or videos. But one of the videos does appear to have a layman censing the gifts during the Great Entrance.

Offline ag_vn

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2011, 11:36:10 AM »
Well I guess everyone sees what he/she wants to see. Why are they wearing these sticharions then?

From this article about the Pan-Orthodox celebration of Sunday of Orthodoxy (with Roman Catholic bishops present there) in Cologne this year at the St. Demetrios Antiochian Church:

http://www.dveri.bg/content/view/12926/33/

Many of the priests and faithful were impressed by the fact that there were also little girls, not only boys, among the subdeacons* who hepled during the liturgy. Thus the Patriarchate of Antioch contributes to the revival of the ancient practice of participation of deaconesses in the Orthodox service**.

* I guess the author simply meant altar servers/acolytes, not subdeacons.
** I think it's just the impression of the author. I'm not sure if the Antiochian Patriarchate has any plans for reviving female diaconate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUPPvJ2Tzug - 00:27

Palm Sunday in the Cathedral of Beirut - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgmHn6xPy9E
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 11:37:04 AM by ag_vn »

Offline J Michael

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2011, 02:43:36 PM »
Palm Sunday 2011, St. George Antiochian Church Berlin:
http://antiocheurope.com/Images/Albums/Palm%20Day%20in%20Berlin-PhotoAlbum.html

Butzbach:
http://antiocheurope.com/Images/Albums/Butzbach-PhotoAlbum02.html

Palm Sunday 2009, St. George Antiochian Church Berlin:
http://antiocheurope.com/Ar/News-2009/Germany/Palm-day2009.html

Munster-Osnabruck parish:
http://antiocheurope.com/Ar/News%202008/25-10-2008.html

Achim parish:
http://www.rum-orthodox.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Itemid=1

Berlin:
http://www.rum-orthodox.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=87&Itemid=1

Al Saydeh (Our Lady) Church, Ashrafieh, Beirut:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x70ecvRBuc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7R9YWFYJ-s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0PjePaqvWE

I don't see any clear indication that the females when behind the iconostasis in any of the pictures or videos. But one of the videos does appear to have a layman censing the gifts during the Great Entrance.

I am a layman.  I used to be an altar server.  All the altar servers, with the exception later on of a subdeacon, were laymen.  One of us always censed the gifts during the Great Entrance.  It was rarely the subdeacon.  Is there a canon somewhere that forbids this?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 02:45:41 PM by J Michael »
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2011, 02:50:28 PM »
Palm Sunday 2011, St. George Antiochian Church Berlin:
http://antiocheurope.com/Images/Albums/Palm%20Day%20in%20Berlin-PhotoAlbum.html

Butzbach:
http://antiocheurope.com/Images/Albums/Butzbach-PhotoAlbum02.html

Palm Sunday 2009, St. George Antiochian Church Berlin:
http://antiocheurope.com/Ar/News-2009/Germany/Palm-day2009.html

Munster-Osnabruck parish:
http://antiocheurope.com/Ar/News%202008/25-10-2008.html

Achim parish:
http://www.rum-orthodox.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Itemid=1

Berlin:
http://www.rum-orthodox.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=87&Itemid=1

Al Saydeh (Our Lady) Church, Ashrafieh, Beirut:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x70ecvRBuc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7R9YWFYJ-s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0PjePaqvWE

I don't see any clear indication that the females when behind the iconostasis in any of the pictures or videos. But one of the videos does appear to have a layman censing the gifts during the Great Entrance.

I am a layman.  I used to be an altar server.  All the altar servers, with the exception later on of a subdeacon, were laymen.  One of us always censed the gifts during the Great Entrance.  It was rarely the subdeacon.  Is there a canon somewhere that forbids this?
No, it's a common practice.

Offline J Michael

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2011, 02:56:14 PM »
Palm Sunday 2011, St. George Antiochian Church Berlin:
http://antiocheurope.com/Images/Albums/Palm%20Day%20in%20Berlin-PhotoAlbum.html

Butzbach:
http://antiocheurope.com/Images/Albums/Butzbach-PhotoAlbum02.html

Palm Sunday 2009, St. George Antiochian Church Berlin:
http://antiocheurope.com/Ar/News-2009/Germany/Palm-day2009.html

Munster-Osnabruck parish:
http://antiocheurope.com/Ar/News%202008/25-10-2008.html

Achim parish:
http://www.rum-orthodox.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Itemid=1

Berlin:
http://www.rum-orthodox.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=87&Itemid=1

Al Saydeh (Our Lady) Church, Ashrafieh, Beirut:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x70ecvRBuc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7R9YWFYJ-s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0PjePaqvWE

I don't see any clear indication that the females when behind the iconostasis in any of the pictures or videos. But one of the videos does appear to have a layman censing the gifts during the Great Entrance.

I am a layman.  I used to be an altar server.  All the altar servers, with the exception later on of a subdeacon, were laymen.  One of us always censed the gifts during the Great Entrance.  It was rarely the subdeacon.  Is there a canon somewhere that forbids this?
No, it's a common practice.

So, it shouldn't be problematic, right?
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Offline mike

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2011, 03:12:08 PM »
In Poland the Deacon keeps censer during the Great Entrance. If there aren't any - one of the Acolytes keeps. There are no Subdeacons unless there is a Hierarchical service.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2011, 03:15:19 PM »
In Poland the Deacon keeps censer during the Great Entrance. If there aren't any - one of the Acolytes keeps. There are no Subdeacons unless there is a Hierarchical service.

Seem from my point of view..Although our Deacon was ordained Sub-deacon during his studies for the Diaconate.

Offline Robb

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2011, 12:44:12 AM »
It's interesting to hear that there is a long standing tradition of female servers and lectors in the non Greek Churches.  Just goes to show that those in the RCC who claim that female altar girls and readers are not traditional are sadly mistaken. 

Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?
Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
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Offline WetCatechumen

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2011, 12:46:44 AM »
It's interesting to hear that there is a long standing tradition of female servers and lectors in the non Greek Churches.  Just goes to show that those in the RCC who claim that female altar girls and readers are not traditional are sadly mistaken. 

Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?

Please no. I don't want altar girls in my parishes, honestly (fine with lots of women in the pews), but sacrifice is a man's job.

I don't understand why you guys should want them either.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2011, 12:51:24 AM »
It's interesting to hear that there is a long standing tradition of female servers and lectors in the non Greek Churches.  Just goes to show that those in the RCC who claim that female altar girls and readers are not traditional are sadly mistaken. 

Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?

Please no. I don't want altar girls in my parishes, honestly (fine with lots of women in the pews), but sacrifice is a man's job.

I don't understand why you guys should want them either.

Some of us, out of a concern for female believers and the possession of the royal priesthood, are interested in allowing the incorporation of females in ministry to the greatest degree that is reasonably possible without violating Tradition. There are clearly disagreements as to what that degree is, but I hope you can understand the motivation behind it.
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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2011, 12:54:04 AM »
I did not see any female altar servers in the video.
A couple of young girls were walking around outside the altar area, but so were some little boys.
However, those children were not wearing any vestments typical of altar servers.

Well I guess everyone sees what he/she wants to see. Why are they wearing these sticharions then?

From this article about the Pan-Orthodox celebration of Sunday of Orthodoxy (with Roman Catholic bishops present there) in Cologne this year at the St. Demetrios Antiochian Church:

http://www.dveri.bg/content/view/12926/33/

Many of the priests and faithful were impressed by the fact that there were also little girls, not only boys, among the subdeacons* who hepled during the liturgy. Thus the Patriarchate of Antioch contributes to the revival of the ancient practice of participation of deaconesses in the Orthodox service**.

* I guess the author simply meant altar servers/acolytes, not subdeacons.
** I think it's just the impression of the author. I'm not sure if the Antiochian Patriarchate has any plans for reviving female diaconate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUPPvJ2Tzug - 00:27

Palm Sunday in the Cathedral of Beirut - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgmHn6xPy9E
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 12:54:19 AM by Maria »
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2011, 05:03:26 AM »
It's interesting to hear that there is a long standing tradition of female servers and lectors in the non Greek Churches.  Just goes to show that those in the RCC who claim that female altar girls and readers are not traditional are sadly mistaken.

The RCC who claim that female readers are not traditional are spot on.

Quote
Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?

Simply because the Greek Orthodox are far more conservative in this respect.

I'm assuming that female readers became the norm when Western-influenced choir music replaced the traditional forms of liturgical chant in the Slavic Churches in the 17th Century. Other than that, it's simply a question of need. If you don't have ordained readers to read, a layperson has to do it. Since this issue concerns a clergy-laity distinction rather than a male-female distinction, it really doesn't matter whether its a layman or a laywoman who fills in.

Offline ag_vn

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2011, 07:41:15 AM »
I did not see any female altar servers in the video.
A couple of young girls were walking around outside the altar area, but so were some little boys.
However, those children were not wearing any vestments typical of altar servers.

At 00:27 I think it is a girl coming out from behind the iconostasis carrying a ripidion and wearing a purple sticharion.

Here for example one of the children carrying the candles and wearing these vestments is a girl and is behind the iconostasis in two of the pictures:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23687464@N03/3736148697/in/set-72157621705086294/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23687464@N03/3736151171/in/set-72157621705086294/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23687464@N03/3736947004/in/set-72157621705086294/


I guess some people would call them 'altar girls', others would call them just girls wearing sticharion and carrying around candles and ripidions. Anyway. I just don't think these girls are the major problem of the Antiochian Patriarchate. There are far more bad things.

Offline admiralnick

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2011, 08:45:31 AM »
Do the truest of Orthodox, the old Believers have female lectors?



That's a pretty explosive comment to make on this board.

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Offline mike

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2011, 12:29:14 PM »
I guess some people would call them 'altar girls', others would call them just girls wearing sticharion and carrying around candles and ripidions. Anyway. I just don't think these girls are the major problem of the Antiochian Patriarchate. There are far more bad things.

If they are a problem.
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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2011, 10:35:54 PM »
In Poland the Deacon keeps censer during the Great Entrance. If there aren't any - one of the Acolytes keeps. There are no Subdeacons unless there is a Hierarchical service.
Is that because you have acolytes in hierarchical services fulfilling the duties of a subdeacon?  What about those men ordained to the subdiaconate?  Surely they do what I do which is read the hours, assist the choir or serve in the altar? There is always the Holy Table to clean and make proper week by week anyway and that is work for subdeacons regardless if no bishop is present.
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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2011, 07:11:26 AM »
Priests can clean the altar.
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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2011, 04:55:25 PM »
It's interesting to hear that there is a long standing tradition of female servers and lectors in the non Greek Churches.  Just goes to show that those in the RCC who claim that female altar girls and readers are not traditional are sadly mistaken. 

Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?

Please no. I don't want altar girls in my parishes, honestly (fine with lots of women in the pews), but sacrifice is a man's job.

I don't understand why you guys should want them either.

Because we live in an equal opportunity society which strives to promote equal dignity for both men and women.  Excluding women from  function which they are not required to be under Church regulations may smack of sexism to some and discrimination to others.

Like it or not, women are the real backbone of Christianity and the ones you usually find in church at any given hour lighting candles and helping the priest out.  We shouldn't seek to exclude them from the Church, but instead welcome them in to a greater role in building up Gods kingdom.
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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2011, 06:50:56 PM »
In Poland the Deacon keeps censer during the Great Entrance. If there aren't any - one of the Acolytes keeps. There are no Subdeacons unless there is a Hierarchical service.
Is that because you have acolytes in hierarchical services fulfilling the duties of a subdeacon?  What about those men ordained to the subdiaconate?  Surely they do what I do which is read the hours, assist the choir or serve in the altar? There is always the Holy Table to clean and make proper week by week anyway and that is work for subdeacons regardless if no bishop is present.

For better or for worse, many parishes do not have an ordained subdeacon.  In some jurisdictions, the order is nearly extinct; in others, well, there just isn't a subdeacon in the parish.  In the state I live in, for example, there are two subdeacons for five ROCOR churches.
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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2011, 08:41:57 AM »
It's interesting to hear that there is a long standing tradition of female servers and lectors in the non Greek Churches.  Just goes to show that those in the RCC who claim that female altar girls and readers are not traditional are sadly mistaken. 

Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?

Please no. I don't want altar girls in my parishes, honestly (fine with lots of women in the pews), but sacrifice is a man's job.

I don't understand why you guys should want them either.

It's curious that you even need to say that you're "fine with lots of women in the pews" -- do you know a lot of people who aren't fine with lots of women in the pews?
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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2011, 08:42:53 AM »
Do the truest of Orthodox, the old Believers have female lectors?


That's a pretty explosive comment to make on this board.

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2011, 09:36:50 AM »
It's interesting to hear that there is a long standing tradition of female servers and lectors in the non Greek Churches.  Just goes to show that those in the RCC who claim that female altar girls and readers are not traditional are sadly mistaken. 

Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?

Please no. I don't want altar girls in my parishes, honestly (fine with lots of women in the pews), but sacrifice is a man's job.

I don't understand why you guys should want them either.

Because we live in an equal opportunity society which strives to promote equal dignity for both men and women.  Excluding women from  function which they are not required to be under Church regulations may smack of sexism to some and discrimination to others.

Like it or not, women are the real backbone of Christianity and the ones you usually find in church at any given hour lighting candles and helping the priest out.  We shouldn't seek to exclude them from the Church, but instead welcome them in to a greater role in building up Gods kingdom.

If women are the backbone (and I would generally agree), why do they need a liturgical role to feel validated? Sounds like we simply need to do a better job of recognizing the work they already do.

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2011, 10:16:37 AM »
My grandmother set up a Parish, built a Church and have been shouting at the Priest there.
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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2011, 10:22:36 AM »
I'm perfectly OK with this. Why had female Deacons, why not to have female Subdeacons, Readers or Acolytes?

Deaconesses were not female deacons.
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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2011, 10:23:05 AM »
roflcopter, i'm an AOCA and i'm slightly offended... :-[

If I was in the AOCA, I would be offended at what Met Philip is doing too.
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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2011, 10:24:34 AM »
It's interesting to hear that there is a long standing tradition of female servers and lectors in the non Greek Churches.  Just goes to show that those in the RCC who claim that female altar girls and readers are not traditional are sadly mistaken. 

Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?

Please no. I don't want altar girls in my parishes, honestly (fine with lots of women in the pews), but sacrifice is a man's job.

I don't understand why you guys should want them either.

Because we live in an equal opportunity society which strives to promote equal dignity for both men and women.  Excluding women from  function which they are not required to be under Church regulations may smack of sexism to some and discrimination to others.

Like it or not, women are the real backbone of Christianity and the ones you usually find in church at any given hour lighting candles and helping the priest out.  We shouldn't seek to exclude them from the Church, but instead welcome them in to a greater role in building up Gods kingdom.

I canons clearly say women are not allowed in the altar except in convents where 1 or 2 nuns MAY be given ablessing to clean the altar area.
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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2011, 10:25:41 AM »
I'm perfectly OK with this. Why had female Deacons, why not to have female Subdeacons, Readers or Acolytes?

Deaconesses were not female deacons.

There is no single source about the liturgical functions of Deaconesses. There are only rites of ordination left which are very similar to the ordination of a Deacon.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 10:26:05 AM by Michał Kalina »
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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2011, 05:52:35 PM »
Interesting ......There was a Roman catholic Cardinal ,Inside the Altar dressed like this in the video, in the Serbian Orthodox Church ,When the Late Bishop Dionicija Was Officiating at Liturgy at St. Sava Serbian Orthodox Monastery in Libertyville  Illinos .when i was  younger...He stood out so i kept asking Question's what he was and who is he ,Some answers i got was, there friends....... ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUPPvJ2Tzug - 00:27



Well I guess everyone sees what he/she wants to see. Why are they wearing these sticharions then?

From this article about the Pan-Orthodox celebration of Sunday of Orthodoxy (with Roman Catholic bishops present there) in Cologne this year at the St. Demetrios Antiochian Church:

http://www.dveri.bg/content/view/12926/33/

Many of the priests and faithful were impressed by the fact that there were also little girls, not only boys, among the subdeacons* who hepled during the liturgy. Thus the Patriarchate of Antioch contributes to the revival of the ancient practice of participation of deaconesses in the Orthodox service**.

* I guess the author simply meant altar servers/acolytes, not subdeacons.
** I think it's just the impression of the author. I'm not sure if the Antiochian Patriarchate has any plans for reviving female diaconate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUPPvJ2Tzug - 00:27

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« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 05:57:24 PM by stashko »
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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2011, 10:10:44 PM »
In my experience, the Melkite Greek Catholics in the US are often somewhat more liturgically traditional than the Antiochian Archdiocese, likely because their membership includes a fair number of Latin Catholics who transferred after being fed up with Latin liturgical chaos. However, in the Middle East it's very much the opposite. Outside of a couple monasteries, Greek Catholic liturgies in the Middle East are often radically shortened or otherwise altered or Latinized. Many churches lack iconostases, etc. Not to mention their practice of receiving communion by intinction, a result of French paranoia about germs in the 1930's......

My brother,

For what it is worse some of us Latins are still suffering from the lack of rood-screens. In the aftermath of Trent there was a great deal of architectural destruction throughout the Catholic world. Rood-screens built upon the altar rail is still (if you allow me to say so) proper to the Latin Church.

It is food for thought. In a way it is analogous to the aquaduct in Rome. After its destruction in the early centuries it wasn't until 1,100 years later that it was rebuilt.

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2011, 10:30:39 PM »
What purpose did Rood Screens actually serve?  Its not as if they had them decorated with Ikon's or religious art/statues.  They just seemed to be useless, artificial barrier between the clergy and laity.

Also, isn't it true that the priest used to communicate people by sticking his hand (With the host) through a hole int he Rod Screen?  Seems kind of distant to me, but if that's your preference.
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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2011, 01:23:05 AM »
I'm assuming that female readers became the norm when Western-influenced choir music replaced the traditional forms of liturgical chant in the Slavic Churches in the 17th Century.
Were there women chanters?
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2011, 04:25:21 AM »
I'm assuming that female readers became the norm when Western-influenced choir music replaced the traditional forms of liturgical chant in the Slavic Churches in the 17th Century.
Were there women chanters?

I think the same statement would apply to chanters.

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2011, 08:35:42 AM »
Quote
Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?

Simply because the Greek Orthodox are far more conservative in this respect.

This is simply not true. I have been in several Greek Orthodox parishes that have female chanters and allow women to read the Epistle. These were all GOAA parishes; so whether you are referring to Old Calendar GOC parishes, I am not sure, but women are allowed to chant and read in GOAA parishes. (The GOAA parishes I visited were also in different parts of the country so I can't say "Well, Bishop X in Y city allows it, but Bishop A in B city doesn't.") Furthermore, as GreekChef will be happy to tell you, there are no canons forbidding this.

In the UOC-USA (EP) parish I grew up in and currently attend, women are allowed (and encouraged!) to sing in the choir. Although we currently have several ordained readers who take turns reading the Epistle, when I was in High School, the girls of HS age were encouraged to volunteer to read the Epistle on Sundays in rotation with the boys. It was the parish's attempt to involve the kids during the Liturgy, and to help them feel more engaged.

So as another poster said, what may seem nontraditional, seems to be "the norm" in most parishes throughout the US.
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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2011, 10:10:22 AM »
Quote
Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?

Simply because the Greek Orthodox are far more conservative in this respect.

This is simply not true. I have been in several Greek Orthodox parishes that have female chanters and allow women to read the Epistle. These were all GOAA parishes; so whether you are referring to Old Calendar GOC parishes, I am not sure, but women are allowed to chant and read in GOAA parishes. (The GOAA parishes I visited were also in different parts of the country so I can't say "Well, Bishop X in Y city allows it, but Bishop A in B city doesn't.") Furthermore, as GreekChef will be happy to tell you, there are no canons forbidding this.

In the UOC-USA (EP) parish I grew up in and currently attend, women are allowed (and encouraged!) to sing in the choir. Although we currently have several ordained readers who take turns reading the Epistle, when I was in High School, the girls of HS age were encouraged to volunteer to read the Epistle on Sundays in rotation with the boys. It was the parish's attempt to involve the kids during the Liturgy, and to help them feel more engaged.

So as another poster said, what may seem nontraditional, seems to be "the norm" in most parishes throughout the US.

I will, indeed, be more than happy to tell you this.

Even though I'm pretty sure we've had this conversation several times on this forum...

We need to be clear about several things, because operating under misassumptions, generalizations, misinformation, and mere fantasy and opinion does nobody any good.

Starting at the beginning (with Scripture)... Christ revealed Himself first to the Samaritan woman (ironic that we're having this discussion two days after reading that Gospel!), showing the importance of women in the Church (which I don't think anyone here is denying).  Then when He resurrected, the first person to find out was Mary Magdalene, whom He specifically instructed to spread the good news to the Apostles.  This begs the question, if He didn't want women spreading His good news in Church, why would He have set this precedent?

Secondly, looking at the deaconess, whose presence in the early church was both commonplace and important... Someone mentioned earlier that sources are unclear on her liturgical function.  This is true.  However, they are VERY clear (the Barberini Codex, the earliest known source) that she was ordained in the altar.   Ordination in the altar is indeed that-an ordination.  It signifies the higher ranks of the priesthood- deaconess, deacon, priest, bishop.  The bestowing of a rank at the throne is a tonsuring, not an ordination, and the highest tonsure was/is that of the sub-deacon.  So we know she was ordained, not tonsured.  And reading the prayers contained in the Barberini, it is clear that the SAME prayer of ordination was read for her as was read for the deacon.

Now, that being said, as I mentioned before, her liturgical function is unclear.  We know she did not go out and read petitions on the solea like the deacon does.  And I am personally very uncomfortable with any assumptions that she DID serve a liturgical function, as it just cannot be proven.  BUT, we do know that she served during the sacrament of baptism for women, and that she distributed the Holy Gifts outside of the Church (like in hospitals and people's homes).

So in my mind, this begs a few questions... We know that she was given a higher rank of ordination, so we therefore can conclude that it was acceptable for her to receive a tonsuring as well (since we don't skip ranks in the Church).  So why the objection to women being tonsured as chanters, readers, or acolytes?  Speaking of being tonsured an acolyte... we know that she was in the altar in some capacity, so why the objection to women in the altar?  We also know that she was given the grace of the Holy Spirit at ordination and was entrusted with the Holy Gifts, so why the freaking out about women serving in lower, less important capacities, like chanting or reading? 

Before anyone freaks out (I always have to issue this disclaimer), I am NOT in favor of women being ordained to the priesthood.  I think that is a role that the Church has indeed historically set out for men.  But as there were women deaconesses, I am in favor of the restoration of that office (though I myself am a chanter and would not feel called to serve as a deaconess) as well as the acceptance of women readers, chanters, and acolytes.  The reason for this is that I think it can be quite damaging to a girl's image of God, her relationship with God and the Church, to be told that she cannot serve in the capacities that the Church has already said she could serve in simply because it makes some men uncomfortable.  This is why I draw the line at the priesthood.  The Church has historically said a woman can serve in the tonsured positions and in the position of deaconess.  Therefore what right do we have to deny that calling to a person properly suited?  The Church HAS NOT said a woman can or should serve as a priest, and it would be only for the artificial purposes of pride that we would allow a woman to be ordained to the priesthood, obviously not the right reason. 

And before anyone says "the office of deaconess is no longer needed," I am the wife of a priest who serves in a parish with over 800 families.  I can tell you it is DEFINITELY needed.  Hospital calls are nearly impossible where we live.  It often takes him five hours to do three 15-minute hospital visits because the city is so large and people are so spread out.  He can only go once per week at the most.  And we have no deacon here, and no men willing to be ordained to the deaconate.  But I can name several pious women who I know would serve.  And that is just the "hospital visit" part of the deaconess position.  Maybe sometime I'll give my opinion about the akwardness inherent in a male priest baptising a grown woman.  A deaconess would be a HUGE help.

Just my $.02.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2011, 11:24:13 AM »
Quote
Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?

Simply because the Greek Orthodox are far more conservative in this respect.

This is simply not true. I have been in several Greek Orthodox parishes that have female chanters and allow women to read the Epistle. These were all GOAA parishes; so whether you are referring to Old Calendar GOC parishes, I am not sure, but women are allowed to chant and read in GOAA parishes. (The GOAA parishes I visited were also in different parts of the country so I can't say "Well, Bishop X in Y city allows it, but Bishop A in B city doesn't.") Furthermore, as GreekChef will be happy to tell you, there are no canons forbidding this.

I should perhaps have said "excluding the US" since the GOA in America is a thing unto itself, and very much unlike Greek churches elsewhere in the world.

In any case, my point was not about the right and wrongs of female readers/chanters, but rather that I find it strange that people get their knickers in a twist over un-ordained female candle-bearers when un-ordained female readers are the norm almost everywhere but the Greek churches outside of the US.

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2011, 07:42:41 PM »

I will, indeed, be more than happy to tell you this.

Even though I'm pretty sure we've had this conversation several times on this forum...

We need to be clear about several things, because operating under misassumptions, generalizations, misinformation, and mere fantasy and opinion does nobody any good.

Starting at the beginning (with Scripture)... Christ revealed Himself first to the Samaritan woman (ironic that we're having this discussion two days after reading that Gospel!), showing the importance of women in the Church (which I don't think anyone here is denying).  Then when He resurrected, the first person to find out was Mary Magdalene, whom He specifically instructed to spread the good news to the Apostles.  This begs the question, if He didn't want women spreading His good news in Church, why would He have set this precedent?

Secondly, looking at the deaconess, whose presence in the early church was both commonplace and important... Someone mentioned earlier that sources are unclear on her liturgical function.  This is true.  However, they are VERY clear (the Barberini Codex, the earliest known source) that she was ordained in the altar.  Ordination in the altar is indeed that-an ordination.  It signifies the higher ranks of the priesthood- deaconess, deacon, priest, bishop.  The bestowing of a rank at the throne is a tonsuring, not an ordination, and the highest tonsure was/is that of the sub-deacon.  So we know she was ordained, not tonsured.  And reading the prayers contained in the Barberini, it is clear that the SAME prayer of ordination was read for her as was read for the deacon...


Just want to let you know that I very much enjoyed your posting!

Mary
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 07:43:28 PM by elijahmaria »

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #56 on: May 25, 2011, 07:55:49 PM »
For what it is worse some of us Latins are still suffering from the lack of rood-screens. In the aftermath of Trent there was a great deal of architectural destruction throughout the Catholic world. Rood-screens built upon the altar rail is still (if you allow me to say so) proper to the Latin Church.

This makes me think that you don't really know what a rood screen is.

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Re: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?
« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2011, 05:13:17 PM »
I'm perfectly OK with this. Why had female Deacons, why not to have female Subdeacons, Readers or Acolytes?

WOW, Big step.