OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 23, 2014, 06:18:34 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Are Melkites as liberal as AOCA?  (Read 3746 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« on: May 02, 2011, 01:54:48 AM »

Is the Melkite Greek Catholic Church in America considered as liberal as the AOCA is?  Are they about the same on issues such as bending the rules with liturgy and forbidding priest from wearing cassocks on the street?
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2011, 03:35:11 AM »

roflcopter, i'm an AOCA and i'm slightly offended... Embarrassed
Logged
Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
Posts: 2,363



« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2011, 09:21:37 AM »

roflcopter, i'm an AOCA and i'm slightly offended... Embarrassed
You're also in the most conservative diocese. Wink

Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
Samn!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 307


« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2011, 10:19:07 AM »

In my experience, the Melkite Greek Catholics in the US are often somewhat more liturgically traditional than the Antiochian Archdiocese, likely because their membership includes a fair number of Latin Catholics who transferred after being fed up with Latin liturgical chaos. However, in the Middle East it's very much the opposite. Outside of a couple monasteries, Greek Catholic liturgies in the Middle East are often radically shortened or otherwise altered or Latinized. Many churches lack iconostases, etc. Not to mention their practice of receiving communion by intinction, a result of French paranoia about germs in the 1930's......
Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2011, 04:14:25 PM »

So the Melkites use unleavened bread in the Middle East (Or is it the Maronites that your talking about)?
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2011, 04:19:01 PM »

Those who you refer to as liberal in the Antiochian Archdiocese in North America, do not see a difference between the Melkites and the Orthodox. This is part of the issue. This groups may be a very visible group but, they are small in number and great in age.
Logged

Joseph
Samn!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 307


« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2011, 04:22:43 PM »

They use leavened bread, but they receive it by intinction, that is dipped in the wine rather than spooned out from the chalice. Apparently this was under the influence of French priests who were appalled by the apparent lack of hygiene in the Orthodox practice...
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,948


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2011, 10:10:25 PM »

They use leavened bread, but they receive it by intinction, that is dipped in the wine rather than spooned out from the chalice. Apparently this was under the influence of French priests who were appalled by the apparent lack of hygiene in the Orthodox practice...

Whether dipped or spooned, both are intinction.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
ICXCNIKA
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 661



« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2011, 10:23:51 PM »

Do the Melkites in the Eparchy of Newton have altar girls? I could have swore I saw altar girls in the Canadian Eparchy.
Logged
ag_vn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 408



« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2011, 02:22:17 AM »

Not sure about the Melkites, but Antiochians have altar girls in Lebanon (although not everywhere) and in Germany.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,095


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2011, 02:25:22 AM »

I simply cannot believe that the Antiochians are liberal.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
WetCatechumen
Roman Catholic
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic Christianity
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite - Archdiocese of Santa Fe; Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Phoenix
Posts: 297



« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2011, 02:32:36 AM »

Not sure about the Melkites, but Antiochians have altar girls in Lebanon (although not everywhere) and in Germany.

The Maronites do too. As an American Roman Catholic, I guess you can thank me for it. We started it (without permission).

Sorry. Sad
Logged

"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,917



« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2011, 02:48:13 AM »

Not sure about the Melkites, but Antiochians have altar girls in Lebanon (although not everywhere) and in Germany.

Source, please.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 02:48:27 AM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
ag_vn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 408



« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2011, 04:21:17 AM »

Palm Sunday 2011, St. George Antiochian Church Berlin:
http://antiocheurope.com/Images/Albums/Palm%20Day%20in%20Berlin-PhotoAlbum.html

Butzbach:
http://antiocheurope.com/Images/Albums/Butzbach-PhotoAlbum02.html

Palm Sunday 2009, St. George Antiochian Church Berlin:
http://antiocheurope.com/Ar/News-2009/Germany/Palm-day2009.html

Munster-Osnabruck parish:
http://antiocheurope.com/Ar/News%202008/25-10-2008.html

Achim parish:
http://www.rum-orthodox.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Itemid=1

Berlin:
http://www.rum-orthodox.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=87&Itemid=1

Al Saydeh (Our Lady) Church, Ashrafieh, Beirut:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x70ecvRBuc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7R9YWFYJ-s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0PjePaqvWE
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2011, 04:29:16 AM »

I'm perfectly OK with this. Why had female Deacons, why not to have female Subdeacons, Readers or Acolytes?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2011, 05:00:19 AM »

Why had female Deacons, why not to have female Subdeacons, Readers or Acolytes?

Because the female Deaconate was a non-liturgical function (essentially ministering to women where it would have been inappropriate for male clergy to do so). Subdeacons, Readers and Acolytes have no function outside of the context of liturgy.

That being said, I don't understand why so many people are shocked and appalled because a couple of churches here and there let a little girl carry a candle around when its the norm in nearly all non-Greek churches to have women acting as Readers (with the exception of the Epistle reading) and Chanters. Shows how 'liberal' and 'traditional' have little to do with following Church tradition, but correspond to 'unusual' and 'commonplace'.
Logged
synLeszka
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 532


« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2011, 05:18:56 AM »

Do the truest of Orthodox, the old Believers have female lectors?
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2011, 05:41:46 AM »

Because the female Deaconate was a non-liturgical function (essentially ministering to women where it would have been inappropriate for male clergy to do so). Subdeacons, Readers and Acolytes have no function outside of the context of liturgy.

Communing in front of the altar table isn't a liturgical function?

Quote
its the norm in nearly all non-Greek churches to have women acting as Readers (with the exception of the Epistle reading)

Women read Epistle at my Parish although no one is a tonsured reader.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2011, 05:53:51 AM »

Do the truest of Orthodox, the old Believers have female lectors?

The truest of them don't even have priests, so not sure how reliable they are when it comes to the question of correct liturgical practice.

More traditional groups do not have female lectors. Others, like the Church of the Nativity in Erie, do. The reasons they give for this is the lack of men during wartime which meant women had to fill in for them - it's a recent development.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 06:02:59 AM by Orthodox11 » Logged
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2011, 05:55:58 AM »

Communing in front of the altar table isn't a liturgical function?

No, it's receiving Holy Communion in the altar. Emperors/Empresses did the same.
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,917



« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2011, 10:20:57 AM »


I don't see any clear indication that the females when behind the iconostasis in any of the pictures or videos. But one of the videos does appear to have a layman censing the gifts during the Great Entrance.
Logged
ag_vn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 408



« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2011, 11:36:10 AM »

Well I guess everyone sees what he/she wants to see. Why are they wearing these sticharions then?

From this article about the Pan-Orthodox celebration of Sunday of Orthodoxy (with Roman Catholic bishops present there) in Cologne this year at the St. Demetrios Antiochian Church:

http://www.dveri.bg/content/view/12926/33/

Many of the priests and faithful were impressed by the fact that there were also little girls, not only boys, among the subdeacons* who hepled during the liturgy. Thus the Patriarchate of Antioch contributes to the revival of the ancient practice of participation of deaconesses in the Orthodox service**.

* I guess the author simply meant altar servers/acolytes, not subdeacons.
** I think it's just the impression of the author. I'm not sure if the Antiochian Patriarchate has any plans for reviving female diaconate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUPPvJ2Tzug - 00:27

Palm Sunday in the Cathedral of Beirut - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgmHn6xPy9E
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 11:37:04 AM by ag_vn » Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,174


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2011, 02:43:36 PM »


I don't see any clear indication that the females when behind the iconostasis in any of the pictures or videos. But one of the videos does appear to have a layman censing the gifts during the Great Entrance.

I am a layman.  I used to be an altar server.  All the altar servers, with the exception later on of a subdeacon, were laymen.  One of us always censed the gifts during the Great Entrance.  It was rarely the subdeacon.  Is there a canon somewhere that forbids this?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 02:45:41 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2011, 02:50:28 PM »


I don't see any clear indication that the females when behind the iconostasis in any of the pictures or videos. But one of the videos does appear to have a layman censing the gifts during the Great Entrance.

I am a layman.  I used to be an altar server.  All the altar servers, with the exception later on of a subdeacon, were laymen.  One of us always censed the gifts during the Great Entrance.  It was rarely the subdeacon.  Is there a canon somewhere that forbids this?
No, it's a common practice.
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,174


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2011, 02:56:14 PM »


I don't see any clear indication that the females when behind the iconostasis in any of the pictures or videos. But one of the videos does appear to have a layman censing the gifts during the Great Entrance.

I am a layman.  I used to be an altar server.  All the altar servers, with the exception later on of a subdeacon, were laymen.  One of us always censed the gifts during the Great Entrance.  It was rarely the subdeacon.  Is there a canon somewhere that forbids this?
No, it's a common practice.

So, it shouldn't be problematic, right?
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2011, 03:12:08 PM »

In Poland the Deacon keeps censer during the Great Entrance. If there aren't any - one of the Acolytes keeps. There are no Subdeacons unless there is a Hierarchical service.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,598


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2011, 03:15:19 PM »

In Poland the Deacon keeps censer during the Great Entrance. If there aren't any - one of the Acolytes keeps. There are no Subdeacons unless there is a Hierarchical service.

Seem from my point of view..Although our Deacon was ordained Sub-deacon during his studies for the Diaconate.
Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2011, 12:44:12 AM »

It's interesting to hear that there is a long standing tradition of female servers and lectors in the non Greek Churches.  Just goes to show that those in the RCC who claim that female altar girls and readers are not traditional are sadly mistaken. 

Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
WetCatechumen
Roman Catholic
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic Christianity
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite - Archdiocese of Santa Fe; Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Phoenix
Posts: 297



« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2011, 12:46:44 AM »

It's interesting to hear that there is a long standing tradition of female servers and lectors in the non Greek Churches.  Just goes to show that those in the RCC who claim that female altar girls and readers are not traditional are sadly mistaken. 

Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?

Please no. I don't want altar girls in my parishes, honestly (fine with lots of women in the pews), but sacrifice is a man's job.

I don't understand why you guys should want them either.
Logged

"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2011, 12:51:24 AM »

It's interesting to hear that there is a long standing tradition of female servers and lectors in the non Greek Churches.  Just goes to show that those in the RCC who claim that female altar girls and readers are not traditional are sadly mistaken. 

Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?

Please no. I don't want altar girls in my parishes, honestly (fine with lots of women in the pews), but sacrifice is a man's job.

I don't understand why you guys should want them either.

Some of us, out of a concern for female believers and the possession of the royal priesthood, are interested in allowing the incorporation of females in ministry to the greatest degree that is reasonably possible without violating Tradition. There are clearly disagreements as to what that degree is, but I hope you can understand the motivation behind it.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,239


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2011, 12:54:04 AM »

I did not see any female altar servers in the video.
A couple of young girls were walking around outside the altar area, but so were some little boys.
However, those children were not wearing any vestments typical of altar servers.

Well I guess everyone sees what he/she wants to see. Why are they wearing these sticharions then?

From this article about the Pan-Orthodox celebration of Sunday of Orthodoxy (with Roman Catholic bishops present there) in Cologne this year at the St. Demetrios Antiochian Church:

http://www.dveri.bg/content/view/12926/33/

Many of the priests and faithful were impressed by the fact that there were also little girls, not only boys, among the subdeacons* who hepled during the liturgy. Thus the Patriarchate of Antioch contributes to the revival of the ancient practice of participation of deaconesses in the Orthodox service**.

* I guess the author simply meant altar servers/acolytes, not subdeacons.
** I think it's just the impression of the author. I'm not sure if the Antiochian Patriarchate has any plans for reviving female diaconate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUPPvJ2Tzug - 00:27

Palm Sunday in the Cathedral of Beirut - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgmHn6xPy9E
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 12:54:19 AM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2011, 05:03:26 AM »

It's interesting to hear that there is a long standing tradition of female servers and lectors in the non Greek Churches.  Just goes to show that those in the RCC who claim that female altar girls and readers are not traditional are sadly mistaken.

The RCC who claim that female readers are not traditional are spot on.

Quote
Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?

Simply because the Greek Orthodox are far more conservative in this respect.

I'm assuming that female readers became the norm when Western-influenced choir music replaced the traditional forms of liturgical chant in the Slavic Churches in the 17th Century. Other than that, it's simply a question of need. If you don't have ordained readers to read, a layperson has to do it. Since this issue concerns a clergy-laity distinction rather than a male-female distinction, it really doesn't matter whether its a layman or a laywoman who fills in.
Logged
ag_vn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 408



« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2011, 07:41:15 AM »

I did not see any female altar servers in the video.
A couple of young girls were walking around outside the altar area, but so were some little boys.
However, those children were not wearing any vestments typical of altar servers.

At 00:27 I think it is a girl coming out from behind the iconostasis carrying a ripidion and wearing a purple sticharion.

Here for example one of the children carrying the candles and wearing these vestments is a girl and is behind the iconostasis in two of the pictures:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23687464@N03/3736148697/in/set-72157621705086294/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23687464@N03/3736151171/in/set-72157621705086294/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23687464@N03/3736947004/in/set-72157621705086294/


I guess some people would call them 'altar girls', others would call them just girls wearing sticharion and carrying around candles and ripidions. Anyway. I just don't think these girls are the major problem of the Antiochian Patriarchate. There are far more bad things.
Logged
admiralnick
Cardinal, Editor for Photogalleries
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,880


« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2011, 08:45:31 AM »

Do the truest of Orthodox, the old Believers have female lectors?



That's a pretty explosive comment to make on this board.

-Nick
Logged

The ORIGINAL: "NULL"
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2011, 12:29:14 PM »

I guess some people would call them 'altar girls', others would call them just girls wearing sticharion and carrying around candles and ripidions. Anyway. I just don't think these girls are the major problem of the Antiochian Patriarchate. There are far more bad things.

If they are a problem.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
SubdeaconDavid
"...the spread of the light of Orthodoxy among the peoples of all the lands where our Church exists continues as an inseparable part of our mission": Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCOR)
Posts: 504


Помилуй мя Боже, по велицей милости Твоей


WWW
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2011, 10:35:54 PM »

In Poland the Deacon keeps censer during the Great Entrance. If there aren't any - one of the Acolytes keeps. There are no Subdeacons unless there is a Hierarchical service.
Is that because you have acolytes in hierarchical services fulfilling the duties of a subdeacon?  What about those men ordained to the subdiaconate?  Surely they do what I do which is read the hours, assist the choir or serve in the altar? There is always the Holy Table to clean and make proper week by week anyway and that is work for subdeacons regardless if no bishop is present.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 10:36:23 PM by SubdeaconDavid » Logged

Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2011, 07:11:26 AM »

Priests can clean the altar.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2011, 04:55:25 PM »

It's interesting to hear that there is a long standing tradition of female servers and lectors in the non Greek Churches.  Just goes to show that those in the RCC who claim that female altar girls and readers are not traditional are sadly mistaken. 

Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?

Please no. I don't want altar girls in my parishes, honestly (fine with lots of women in the pews), but sacrifice is a man's job.

I don't understand why you guys should want them either.

Because we live in an equal opportunity society which strives to promote equal dignity for both men and women.  Excluding women from  function which they are not required to be under Church regulations may smack of sexism to some and discrimination to others.

Like it or not, women are the real backbone of Christianity and the ones you usually find in church at any given hour lighting candles and helping the priest out.  We shouldn't seek to exclude them from the Church, but instead welcome them in to a greater role in building up Gods kingdom.
Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
smithakd
Dcn Andrew Smith
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Australia
Posts: 75


Orthodox Christian Deacon and Author

intro2orthodoxy
WWW
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2011, 06:50:56 PM »

In Poland the Deacon keeps censer during the Great Entrance. If there aren't any - one of the Acolytes keeps. There are no Subdeacons unless there is a Hierarchical service.
Is that because you have acolytes in hierarchical services fulfilling the duties of a subdeacon?  What about those men ordained to the subdiaconate?  Surely they do what I do which is read the hours, assist the choir or serve in the altar? There is always the Holy Table to clean and make proper week by week anyway and that is work for subdeacons regardless if no bishop is present.

For better or for worse, many parishes do not have an ordained subdeacon.  In some jurisdictions, the order is nearly extinct; in others, well, there just isn't a subdeacon in the parish.  In the state I live in, for example, there are two subdeacons for five ROCOR churches.
Logged

Dcn Andrew Smith

Author: Discover the Church: The Whats and Whys of Orthodox Christianity and Footsteps of the Apostles: 110 ways to promote church growth in your Orthodox parish.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,147



« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2011, 08:41:57 AM »

It's interesting to hear that there is a long standing tradition of female servers and lectors in the non Greek Churches.  Just goes to show that those in the RCC who claim that female altar girls and readers are not traditional are sadly mistaken. 

Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?

Please no. I don't want altar girls in my parishes, honestly (fine with lots of women in the pews), but sacrifice is a man's job.

I don't understand why you guys should want them either.

It's curious that you even need to say that you're "fine with lots of women in the pews" -- do you know a lot of people who aren't fine with lots of women in the pews?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,147



« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2011, 08:42:53 AM »

Do the truest of Orthodox, the old Believers have female lectors?


That's a pretty explosive comment to make on this board.

-Nick

I thought the Oriental Orthodox were the "truest of Orthodox".
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2011, 09:36:50 AM »

It's interesting to hear that there is a long standing tradition of female servers and lectors in the non Greek Churches.  Just goes to show that those in the RCC who claim that female altar girls and readers are not traditional are sadly mistaken. 

Also, why do Greek Orthodox oppose women in these positions while the rest of world Orthodoxy has no problem with them?

Please no. I don't want altar girls in my parishes, honestly (fine with lots of women in the pews), but sacrifice is a man's job.

I don't understand why you guys should want them either.

Because we live in an equal opportunity society which strives to promote equal dignity for both men and women.  Excluding women from  function which they are not required to be under Church regulations may smack of sexism to some and discrimination to others.

Like it or not, women are the real backbone of Christianity and the ones you usually find in church at any given hour lighting candles and helping the priest out.  We shouldn't seek to exclude them from the Church, but instead welcome them in to a greater role in building up Gods kingdom.

If women are the backbone (and I would generally agree), why do they need a liturgical role to feel validated? Sounds like we simply need to do a better job of recognizing the work they already do.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2011, 10:16:37 AM »

My grandmother set up a Parish, built a Church and have been shouting at the Priest there.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2011, 10:22:36 AM »

I'm perfectly OK with this. Why had female Deacons, why not to have female Subdeacons, Readers or Acolytes?

Deaconesses were not female deacons.
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2011, 10:23:05 AM »

roflcopter, i'm an AOCA and i'm slightly offended... Embarrassed

If I was in the AOCA, I would be offended at what Met Philip is doing too.
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.15 seconds with 72 queries.