OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 22, 2014, 05:54:06 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Roman Catholic Church did away with "Purgatory"?  (Read 4509 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Tikhon.of.Colorado
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ruthenian Greek Catholic
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Pheonix
Posts: 2,362



« on: May 01, 2011, 07:51:54 PM »

a Roman Catholic I know said that the Roman Catholic Church stopped preaching the idea of Purgatory recently.  is this true?
Logged

"It is true that I am not always faithful, but I never lose courage, I leave myself in the Arms of Our Lord." - St. Thérèse of Lisieux
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2011, 07:56:44 PM »

It would be a step in the right direction, but no. He is likely referring to the supposed "abolishment of limbo" (which in reality was a critique of the long cherished belief of limbo by many RC theologians). 
Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,825


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2011, 07:57:12 PM »

They haven't done away with it. They just tidied it up in the mainstream. It's not a place anymore, like in medieval Catholicism. It's a... a state of mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7DOvbAfjtU#t=2m42s
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2011, 09:32:44 PM »

"The transforming 'moment' of this encounter cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is, indeed, not eternal but a transition, and yet trying to qualify it as of 'short' or 'long' duration on the basis of temporal measurements derived from physics would be naive and unproductive. The 'temporal measure' of this encounter lies in the unsoundable depths of existence, in a passing-over where we are burned ere we are transformed. To measure such Existenzzeit, such an 'existential time,' in terms of the time of this world would be to ignore the specificity of the human spirit in its simultaneous relationship with, and differentation from, the world.
. . .
"[Purgatory] is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints.
. . .
"Encounter with the Lord is this transformation."...

--Joseph Ratzinger, Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life, p. 230-231
Logged

Kasatkin fan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Archdiocese of Canada
Posts: 636



« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2011, 09:34:53 PM »

Purgatory is still there, they've just changed it from a place where souls are purged by fire, to any belief that there is any sort of purgation of sin after death. Many Roman Catholics I've talked with will jump all over you if you so much as use the term "purge" and claim that this means the entire church accepts the complete teachings of Purgatory.
Logged
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,226



« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2011, 09:59:23 PM »

Purgatory is still there, they've just changed it from a place where souls are purged by fire, to any belief that there is any sort of purgation of sin after death. Many Roman Catholics I've talked with will jump all over you if you so much as use the term "purge" and claim that this means the entire church accepts the complete teachings of Purgatory.

I'm not sure about that. From what I remember from my time in the RCC and discussions with priests and others, it was never really officially defined as a place to begin with, was it? If so, then it can be easily justified with their ideas of doctrinal development.

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
quietmorning
QuietMorning
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,911


May my Dad's Memory be Eternal.


WWW
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2011, 10:05:22 PM »

I was raised RC.  I was also taught that Purgatory ended with the Risen Christ.  I was quite surprised to read (here) that it is still being taught as still where we go when we're not good enough to go to heaven and not bad enough to go to hell... so that we can work off our sins - I've never heard it.  
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 10:06:03 PM by quietmorning » Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2011, 10:37:54 PM »

Purgatory is not a place, it is a state that the soul is in before heaven.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,492



« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2011, 10:45:24 PM »

Don't some Catholic saints, such as St. Thomas Aquinas, talk about literal, physical fire existing in the afterlife?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 10:45:36 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

Lt. Ray Makonnen: "You know, Captain, every year of my life I grow more and more convinced that the wisest and the best is to fix our attention on the good and the beautiful. If you just take the time to look at it."

Capt. Frank Chapman: "You're some guy, Makonnen."
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2011, 10:48:54 PM »

Don't some Catholic saints, such as St. Thomas Aquinas, talk about literal, physical fire existing in the afterlife?
Ponderings of Saints does not equal doctrinal teaching of the Church.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,492



« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2011, 10:50:40 PM »

What if their ponderings were presented at the Council of Florence as doctrine to be officially accepted or rejected by the Orthodox?
Logged

Lt. Ray Makonnen: "You know, Captain, every year of my life I grow more and more convinced that the wisest and the best is to fix our attention on the good and the beautiful. If you just take the time to look at it."

Capt. Frank Chapman: "You're some guy, Makonnen."
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,492



« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2011, 10:55:13 PM »

Let me clarify the above post. I have read (I think!) saints such as St. Thomas Aquinas talking about physical fire in the afterlife. However, when I spoke of the Council of Florence, I was mostly guessing that this teaching was taught, based on words that St. Mark of Ephesus used in disagreeing with the Catholic position, saying:

Quote
But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have no repented at all, or great ones for which--even though they have repented over them--they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins, but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place (for this, as we have said, has not at all be handed down to us). But some must be cleansed in the very departure from the body, thanks only to fear, as St. Gregory the Dialogist literally shows; while others must be cleansed after the departure from the body, either while remaining in the same earthly place, before they come to worship God and are honored with the lot of the blessed, or--if their sins were more serious and bind them for a longer duration--they are kept in [hades], but not in order to remain forever in fire and torment, but as it were in prison and confinement under guard.

All such ones, we affirm, are helped by the prayers and Liturgies performed for them, with the cooperation of the Divine goodness and love for mankind. This Divine cooperation immediately disdains and remits some sins, those committed out of human weakness, as Dionysius the Great (the Areopagite) says in 'Reflections on the Mystery of Those Reposed in Faith' (In 'The Ecclesiastical Hierarchy, 7, 7); while other sins, after a certain time, by righteous judgments it either likewise releases and forgives--and that completely--or lightens the responsibility for them until that final judgment. And therefore we see no necessity whatever for any other punishment or for a cleansing fire; for some are cleansed by fear, while others are devoured by gnawings of conscience with more torment than any fire, and still others are cleansed only the the very terror before the Divine Glory and the uncertainty as to what the future will be...

And so, we intreat God and believe to deliver the departed from (eternal torment), and not from any other torment or fire apart from those torments and that fire which have been proclaimed to be forever. And that, moreover, the souls of the departed are delivered by prayers from confinement in [hades], as if from a certain prison, is testified, among many others, by Theophanes the Confessor, called the Branded. ...In one of the canons for the reposed he thus prays for them: 'Deliver, O Savior, Thy slaves who are in the [hades] of tears and sighing' (Octoechos, Saturday canon for the deposed, Tone 8, Canticle 6, Glory).

-- St. Mark of Ephesus, First Homily on the Refutation of the Latin Chapters Concerning Purgatorial Fire
Logged

Lt. Ray Makonnen: "You know, Captain, every year of my life I grow more and more convinced that the wisest and the best is to fix our attention on the good and the beautiful. If you just take the time to look at it."

Capt. Frank Chapman: "You're some guy, Makonnen."
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,835



« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2011, 12:16:21 AM »

Flip-floppy fish will flop all over the place on this one.
Logged
Kasatkin fan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Archdiocese of Canada
Posts: 636



« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2011, 12:38:27 AM »

Purgatory is still there, they've just changed it from a place where souls are purged by fire, to any belief that there is any sort of purgation of sin after death. Many Roman Catholics I've talked with will jump all over you if you so much as use the term "purge" and claim that this means the entire church accepts the complete teachings of Purgatory.

I'm not sure about that. From what I remember from my time in the RCC and discussions with priests and others, it was never really officially defined as a place to begin with, was it? If so, then it can be easily justified with their ideas of doctrinal development.

In Christ,
Andrew
A place or a state. I suppose no it was never defined as a place, since that implies material, state is certainly the correct word.
Logged
Kasatkin fan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Archdiocese of Canada
Posts: 636



« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2011, 12:39:40 AM »

I was raised RC.  I was also taught that Purgatory ended with the Risen Christ.  I was quite surprised to read (here) that it is still being taught as still where we go when we're not good enough to go to heaven and not bad enough to go to hell... so that we can work off our sins - I've never heard it.  
The Catholics I've talked to certainly claim it still exists. That includes those well educated on their faith, and those lesser so.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,492



« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2011, 12:43:37 AM »

Purgatory is still there, they've just changed it from a place where souls are purged by fire, to any belief that there is any sort of purgation of sin after death. Many Roman Catholics I've talked with will jump all over you if you so much as use the term "purge" and claim that this means the entire church accepts the complete teachings of Purgatory.

I'm not sure about that. From what I remember from my time in the RCC and discussions with priests and others, it was never really officially defined as a place to begin with, was it? If so, then it can be easily justified with their ideas of doctrinal development.

In Christ,
Andrew
A place or a state. I suppose no it was never defined as a place, since that implies material, state is certainly the correct word.

What if you believe that, in some sense, souls are to some small degree material? If the soul, even if only in comparison to God, can be called material, then where does that leave us with the afterlife? As a related question--why a bodily resurrection if there wasn't some degree of materiality to what we will experience in the afterlife?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 12:45:17 AM by Asteriktos » Logged

Lt. Ray Makonnen: "You know, Captain, every year of my life I grow more and more convinced that the wisest and the best is to fix our attention on the good and the beautiful. If you just take the time to look at it."

Capt. Frank Chapman: "You're some guy, Makonnen."
quietmorning
QuietMorning
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,911


May my Dad's Memory be Eternal.


WWW
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2011, 09:32:33 AM »

I was raised RC.  I was also taught that Purgatory ended with the Risen Christ.  I was quite surprised to read (here) that it is still being taught as still where we go when we're not good enough to go to heaven and not bad enough to go to hell... so that we can work off our sins - I've never heard it.  
The Catholics I've talked to certainly claim it still exists. That includes those well educated on their faith, and those lesser so.

I'm not saying that this isn't held, I was just surprised to hear it as I wasn't raised with the belief. . . lol. . .in my small dinky little world. 
Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2011, 09:58:44 AM »

Purgatory is still there, they've just changed it from a place where souls are purged by fire, to any belief that there is any sort of purgation of sin after death. Many Roman Catholics I've talked with will jump all over you if you so much as use the term "purge" and claim that this means the entire church accepts the complete teachings of Purgatory.

I'm not sure about that. From what I remember from my time in the RCC and discussions with priests and others, it was never really officially defined as a place to begin with, was it? If so, then it can be easily justified with their ideas of doctrinal development.

In Christ,
Andrew

That's right.  The concerns of the pious can not always be understood as the emphatic teaching of the Church. 

As far as purgatory being a place of purgation, we really do not know much.  If near death experiences are to be believed then we do go to something recognizable as "place" after death, and if we are purged of all the residual marks of our bad habits and the unintended consequences of our sins then it would happen where we are...wherever that is.  But to suggest that purgation does not happen in a place, without qualification or further consideration,  also leads to confusion concerning heaven and hell.
Logged

Kasatkin fan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Archdiocese of Canada
Posts: 636



« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2011, 02:39:50 PM »

Purgatory is still there, they've just changed it from a place where souls are purged by fire, to any belief that there is any sort of purgation of sin after death. Many Roman Catholics I've talked with will jump all over you if you so much as use the term "purge" and claim that this means the entire church accepts the complete teachings of Purgatory.

I'm not sure about that. From what I remember from my time in the RCC and discussions with priests and others, it was never really officially defined as a place to begin with, was it? If so, then it can be easily justified with their ideas of doctrinal development.

In Christ,
Andrew
A place or a state. I suppose no it was never defined as a place, since that implies material, state is certainly the correct word.

What if you believe that, in some sense, souls are to some small degree material? If the soul, even if only in comparison to God, can be called material, then where does that leave us with the afterlife? As a related question--why a bodily resurrection if there wasn't some degree of materiality to what we will experience in the afterlife?

I'd say that you're getting deep into semantics on a subject that the Church fully admits cannot be fully comprehended, and that any descriptions can only be good insofar as they go, and will never be complete.
Logged
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2011, 03:42:05 PM »

I was raised RC.  I was also taught that Purgatory ended with the Risen Christ.

That's interesting. I also was raised RC and I certainly was taught about the still-existing purgatory which started with the Risen Christ (according to the RCC, the purpose of the purgatory is to prepare some people for Heaven; before Christ's Ressurection, people were not going to Heaven anyway so there was no need for purgatory, right?).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 03:43:23 PM by Michał » Logged
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2011, 03:44:49 PM »

I was raised RC.  I was also taught that Purgatory ended with the Risen Christ.

That's interesting. I also was raised RC and I certainly was taught about the still-existing purgatory which started with the Risen Christ (according to the RCC, the purpose of the purgatory is to prepare some people for Heaven; before Christ's Ressurection, people were not going to Heaven anyway so there was no need for purgatory, right?).
I think quietmorning may be getting purgatory mixed up with Limbo of the Patriarchs (a.k.a. Sheol) which was the holding place that the dead went to before Christ opened up heaven for us.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 03:45:22 PM by Wyatt » Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,440



« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2011, 04:16:13 PM »

Flip-floppy fish will flop all over the place on this one.

Christ is Risen!

While you can take the "it ain't doctrine route" here, really the discussion parallels the debate over tollhouses in Orthodoxy. The quote from Ratzinger given by EM is interesting. No idea about the context.

 

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,104



« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2011, 06:25:35 PM »

As Anthony Dragani puts it: "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state."
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2011, 06:35:34 PM »

Flip-floppy fish will flop all over the place on this one.

Christ is Risen!

While you can take the "it ain't doctrine route" here, really the discussion parallels the debate over tollhouses in Orthodoxy. The quote from Ratzinger given by EM is interesting. No idea about the context.


Much better approach. 

That whole argument of doctrine and dogma goes sour pretty quickly if one takes the paint-by-number approach to the Truth of Revelation.

There is a Truth...does a teaching uphold that Truth?...if yes, the there should be no argument about whether or not you MUST believe it or go to hell...That's like trying to narrow down what parts of sexual contact outside of marriage are sins....Who cares.  The point is that we be chaste...Once you believe that Chastity has intrinsic value to body and soul...all that other junk goes away.
Logged

synLeszka
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 532


« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2011, 04:36:21 PM »

The fire of purgatory can be understand as a real tangible fire, which is felt by the soul, not by the body, since the body is awaiting the general ressurection.  This above is a paraphrase of Charles Arminjon's End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life. Charles Arminjon was the spiritual father of Therese of Lisieux.
(That's a book my "ignorant" mother and grandmother read)
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,492



« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2011, 04:49:07 PM »

Logged

Lt. Ray Makonnen: "You know, Captain, every year of my life I grow more and more convinced that the wisest and the best is to fix our attention on the good and the beautiful. If you just take the time to look at it."

Capt. Frank Chapman: "You're some guy, Makonnen."
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2011, 05:01:23 PM »

The fire of purgatory can be understand as a real tangible fire, which is felt by the soul, not by the body, since the body is awaiting the general ressurection.  This above is a paraphrase of Charles Arminjon's End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life. Charles Arminjon was the spiritual father of Therese of Lisieux.
(That's a book my "ignorant" mother and grandmother read)


Don't let the "Illumined One" get to you. 

This idea of the fire that burns but does not consume is so prevalent in so many ways in the east that I swear I fail to see the "horror" of the teaching of purgatory for anyone but those who can't handle any criticism whatsoever...however pale.

Christ is Risen!

M.
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2011, 05:02:48 PM »

chipsters

He's only upset because it seems to him that his family has been scorned by the "Illumined One".  And if they have not, certainly their faith has been.

M.
Logged

Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,492



« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2011, 05:05:49 PM »

Fwiw, I didn't mean anything mean spirited by it... just don't think he needs to worry so much or let things get to him, such that things are carried over from other threads.  Smiley
Logged

Lt. Ray Makonnen: "You know, Captain, every year of my life I grow more and more convinced that the wisest and the best is to fix our attention on the good and the beautiful. If you just take the time to look at it."

Capt. Frank Chapman: "You're some guy, Makonnen."
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2011, 05:09:24 PM »

Fwiw, I didn't mean anything mean spirited by it... just don't think he needs to worry so much or let things get to him, such that things are carried over from other threads.  Smiley

I gnu that. 

Want to make sure he does  Smiley
Logged

Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,492



« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2011, 05:20:43 PM »

Fwiw, I didn't mean anything mean spirited by it... just don't think he needs to worry so much or let things get to him, such that things are carried over from other threads.  Smiley

I gnu that. 

Want to make sure he does  Smiley

Now I regret posting the image though...

synLeszka, just so you know, I tend to joke about all sorts of things... I suppose it would come across better if we were in person... though I could have used some emoticons... no offense intended Smiley
Logged

Lt. Ray Makonnen: "You know, Captain, every year of my life I grow more and more convinced that the wisest and the best is to fix our attention on the good and the beautiful. If you just take the time to look at it."

Capt. Frank Chapman: "You're some guy, Makonnen."
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,635


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2011, 06:47:27 PM »

The fire of purgatory can be understand as a real tangible fire, which is felt by the soul, not by the body, since the body is awaiting the general ressurection.  This above is a paraphrase of Charles Arminjon's End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life. Charles Arminjon was the spiritual father of Therese of Lisieux.
(That's a book my "ignorant" mother and grandmother read)


Don't let the "Illumined One" get to you.  

This idea of the fire that burns but does not consume is so prevalent in so many ways in the east that I swear I fail to see the "horror" of the teaching of purgatory for anyone but those who can't handle any criticism whatsoever...however pale.

Christ is Risen!

M.

Indeed He is Risen!

Yes, I used to tease my spiritual father while I was a catechumen that my catechumate was a form of purgatory on earth.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 06:48:54 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2011, 07:20:56 PM »

The fire of purgatory can be understand as a real tangible fire, which is felt by the soul, not by the body, since the body is awaiting the general ressurection.  This above is a paraphrase of Charles Arminjon's End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life. Charles Arminjon was the spiritual father of Therese of Lisieux.
(That's a book my "ignorant" mother and grandmother read)


Don't let the "Illumined One" get to you.  

This idea of the fire that burns but does not consume is so prevalent in so many ways in the east that I swear I fail to see the "horror" of the teaching of purgatory for anyone but those who can't handle any criticism whatsoever...however pale.

Christ is Risen!

M.

Indeed He is Risen!

Yes, I used to tease my spiritual father while I was a catechumen that my catechumate was a form of purgatory on earth.

And you were quite right  Smiley...In the sense that those who are purified in this life have no concerns for a continuation of their suffering in the life to come.
Logged

deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2011, 08:01:49 PM »

a Roman Catholic I know said that the Roman Catholic Church stopped preaching the idea of Purgatory recently.  is this true?

Nope. I have actually heard this a number of times, but the typical lay person doesn't know what he/she is talking about, as usual.

In fact, Purgatory has not been abolished or really even criticized. Some of the Late Medieval speculations on it have been clarified as being unnecessary. But nonetheless the core doctrine remains unscathed.

It is in fact the doctrine of the Limbo of Infants that is what has been addressed. At this, it hasn't been abolished so much as it has been clarified that it was never a dogma in the first place, and therefore is simply a pious opinion which may be ignored.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2011, 08:04:03 PM »

Flip-floppy fish will flop all over the place

Expresses my feelings about a lot of posts on this forum.  Grin
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,440



« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2011, 08:10:00 PM »

Flip-floppy fish will flop all over the place

Expresses my feelings about a lot of posts on this forum.  Grin

Shocking.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2011, 08:13:13 PM »

Flip-floppy fish will flop all over the place

Expresses my feelings about a lot of posts on this forum.  Grin

Shocking.

 Tongue
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
akimel
Fr Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR (Western Rite)
Posts: 519



WWW
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2011, 11:09:42 AM »

I have commented at some length on the Catholic understanding of purgatory in several threads on this forum and do not want to bore everyone by repeating what I have already written.  My own understanding of Purgatory can be found on my old now defunct blog.

One point to consider:  if Sts. Gregory of Nyssa and Isaac of Ninevah are correct in their understanding of universal reconciliation, then Hell is Purgatory. 
Logged

J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,032


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2011, 11:36:36 AM »

I have commented at some length on the Catholic understanding of purgatory in several threads on this forum and do not want to bore everyone by repeating what I have already written.  My own understanding of Purgatory can be found on my old now defunct blog.

One point to consider:  if Sts. Gregory of Nyssa and Isaac of Ninevah are correct in their understanding of universal reconciliation, then Hell is Purgatory. 

Don't have time at the moment to read your article, put I shall.  As for your second comment, that is a thought I've had for a while now, even though my understanding of both Purgatory and universal salvation is probably sadly lacking.  And it's not something that I've found discussed much anywhere I've been.  In fact, the whole idea of universal salvation, in my limited experience and time in the Church, is one that seems to have been actively avoided.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
akimel
Fr Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR (Western Rite)
Posts: 519



WWW
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2011, 12:15:55 PM »

Commenting on St Isaac's understanding of Gehenna, Met Hilarion writes:

Quote
All of God's actions are mysteries that are inaccessible to human reasoning. Gehenna is also a mystery, created in order to bring to a state of perfection those who had not reached it during their lifetime. ... Thus, Gehenna is a sort of purgatory rather than hell. It is conceived and established for the salvation of both human beings and angels. ... According to Isaac, all those who have fallen away from God will eventually return to Him because of the temporary and short torment in Gehenna that is prepared for them in order that they purify themselves through the fire of suffering and repentance. (The Spiritual World of Isaac the Syrian, p. 290)


Logged

J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,032


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2011, 12:26:35 PM »

Commenting on St Isaac's understanding of Gehenna, Met Hilarion writes:

Quote
All of God's actions are mysteries that are inaccessible to human reasoning. Gehenna is also a mystery, created in order to bring to a state of perfection those who had not reached it during their lifetime. ... Thus, Gehenna is a sort of purgatory rather than hell. It is conceived and established for the salvation of both human beings and angels. ... According to Isaac, all those who have fallen away from God will eventually return to Him because of the temporary and short torment in Gehenna that is prepared for them in order that they purify themselves through the fire of suffering and repentance. (The Spiritual World of Isaac the Syrian, p. 290)




Very interesting!  Thanks!  I've had that book sitting on my shelf for, oh...maybe 3-4 years or so.  Perhaps it's time to pick it up and start reading it.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,153


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2011, 11:17:59 PM »

a Roman Catholic I know said that the Roman Catholic Church stopped preaching the idea of Purgatory recently.  is this true?

No.   Purgatory is still their.

But look at the bright side, at least if any of us are wrong and the RC's are right, we get to hang out for a while instead of burning.  It's like being in "Heaven Jail".
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2011, 11:45:58 PM »

I'm kind of curious. Taking into account that our God is a consuming fire, would this statement be offensive to modern Catholic teaching and theologians/apologists? I'm only asking because the main objections being raised are to points that some might be more willing to acknowledge as being just opinion or speculation.

Quote
But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have no repented at all, or great ones for which--even though they have repented over them--they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins, but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place (for this, as we have said, has not at all be handed down to us). But some must be cleansed in the very departure from the body, thanks only to fear, as St. Gregory the Dialogist literally shows; while others must be cleansed after the departure from the body, either while remaining in the same earthly place, before they come to worship God and are honored with the lot of the blessed, or--if their sins were more serious and bind them for a longer duration--they are kept in [hades], but not in order to remain forever in fire and torment, but as it were in prison and confinement under guard.

All such ones, we affirm, are helped by the prayers and Liturgies performed for them, with the cooperation of the Divine goodness and love for mankind. This Divine cooperation immediately disdains and remits some sins, those committed out of human weakness, as Dionysius the Great (the Areopagite) says in 'Reflections on the Mystery of Those Reposed in Faith' (In 'The Ecclesiastical Hierarchy, 7, 7); while other sins, after a certain time, by righteous judgments it either likewise releases and forgives--and that completely--or lightens the responsibility for them until that final judgment. And therefore we see no necessity whatever for any other punishment or for a cleansing fire; for some are cleansed by fear, while others are devoured by gnawings of conscience with more torment than any fire, and still others are cleansed only the the very terror before the Divine Glory and the uncertainty as to what the future will be...

And so, we intreat God and believe to deliver the departed from (eternal torment), and not from any other torment or fire apart from those torments and that fire which have been proclaimed to be forever. And that, moreover, the souls of the departed are delivered by prayers from confinement in [hades], as if from a certain prison, is testified, among many others, by Theophanes the Confessor, called the Branded. ...In one of the canons for the reposed he thus prays for them: 'Deliver, O Savior, Thy slaves who are in the [hades] of tears and sighing' (Octoechos, Saturday canon for the deposed, Tone 8, Canticle 6, Glory).

-- St. Mark of Ephesus, First Homily on the Refutation of the Latin Chapters Concerning Purgatorial Fire
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,104



« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2011, 08:03:45 AM »

I'm kind of curious. Taking into account that our God is a consuming fire, would this statement be offensive to modern Catholic teaching and theologians/apologists? I'm only asking because the main objections being raised are to points that some might be more willing to acknowledge as being just opinion or speculation.

Quote
But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have no repented at all, or great ones for which--even though they have repented over them--they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins, but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place (for this, as we have said, has not at all be handed down to us). But some must be cleansed in the very departure from the body, thanks only to fear, as St. Gregory the Dialogist literally shows; while others must be cleansed after the departure from the body, either while remaining in the same earthly place, before they come to worship God and are honored with the lot of the blessed, or--if their sins were more serious and bind them for a longer duration--they are kept in [hades], but not in order to remain forever in fire and torment, but as it were in prison and confinement under guard.

All such ones, we affirm, are helped by the prayers and Liturgies performed for them, with the cooperation of the Divine goodness and love for mankind. This Divine cooperation immediately disdains and remits some sins, those committed out of human weakness, as Dionysius the Great (the Areopagite) says in 'Reflections on the Mystery of Those Reposed in Faith' (In 'The Ecclesiastical Hierarchy, 7, 7); while other sins, after a certain time, by righteous judgments it either likewise releases and forgives--and that completely--or lightens the responsibility for them until that final judgment. And therefore we see no necessity whatever for any other punishment or for a cleansing fire; for some are cleansed by fear, while others are devoured by gnawings of conscience with more torment than any fire, and still others are cleansed only the the very terror before the Divine Glory and the uncertainty as to what the future will be...

And so, we intreat God and believe to deliver the departed from (eternal torment), and not from any other torment or fire apart from those torments and that fire which have been proclaimed to be forever. And that, moreover, the souls of the departed are delivered by prayers from confinement in [hades], as if from a certain prison, is testified, among many others, by Theophanes the Confessor, called the Branded. ...In one of the canons for the reposed he thus prays for them: 'Deliver, O Savior, Thy slaves who are in the [hades] of tears and sighing' (Octoechos, Saturday canon for the deposed, Tone 8, Canticle 6, Glory).

-- St. Mark of Ephesus, First Homily on the Refutation of the Latin Chapters Concerning Purgatorial Fire

I would have to say Yes it is "offensive to modern Catholic teaching and theologians/apologist", because ultimately he is saying "The Catholics are wrong, and here's why." If he were instead saying "The Catholics are right, and here's why" that would be another matter.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2011, 08:38:32 AM »

a Roman Catholic I know said that the Roman Catholic Church stopped preaching the idea of Purgatory recently.  is this true?

No.   Purgatory is still their.

But look at the bright side, at least if any of us are wrong and the RC's are right, we get to hang out for a while instead of burning.  It's like being in "Heaven Jail".

What are you talking about?
Logged


I'm going to need this.
akimel
Fr Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR (Western Rite)
Posts: 519



WWW
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2011, 10:29:31 AM »

Melodist, compare your passage from St Mark of Ephesus to this passage from Pope Benedict's encyclical Spe Salvi:

Quote
This early Jewish idea of an intermediate state includes the view that these souls are not simply in a sort of temporary custody but, as the parable of the rich man illustrates, are already being punished or are experiencing a provisional form of bliss. There is also the idea that this state can involve purification and healing which mature the soul for communion with God. The early Church took up these concepts, and in the Western Church they gradually developed into the doctrine of Purgatory. We do not need to examine here the complex historical paths of this development; it is enough to ask what it actually means. With death, our life-choice becomes definitive—our life stands before the judge. Our choice, which in the course of an entire life takes on a certain shape, can have a variety of forms. There can be people who have totally destroyed their desire for truth and readiness to love, people for whom everything has become a lie, people who have lived for hatred and have suppressed all love within themselves. This is a terrifying thought, but alarming profiles of this type can be seen in certain figures of our own history. In such people all would be beyond remedy and the destruction of good would be irrevocable: this is what we mean by the word Hell[37]. On the other hand there can be people who are utterly pure, completely permeated by God, and thus fully open to their neighbours—people for whom communion with God even now gives direction to their entire being and whose journey towards God only brings to fulfilment what they already are[38].

46. Yet we know from experience that neither case is normal in human life. For the great majority of people—we may suppose—there remains in the depths of their being an ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God. In the concrete choices of life, however, it is covered over by ever new compromises with evil—much filth covers purity, but the thirst for purity remains and it still constantly re-emerges from all that is base and remains present in the soul. What happens to such individuals when they appear before the Judge? Will all the impurity they have amassed through life suddenly cease to matter? What else might occur? Saint Paul, in his First Letter to the Corinthians, gives us an idea of the differing impact of God's judgement according to each person's particular circumstances. He does this using images which in some way try to express the invisible, without it being possible for us to conceptualize these images—simply because we can neither see into the world beyond death nor do we have any experience of it. Paul begins by saying that Christian life is built upon a common foundation: Jesus Christ. This foundation endures. If we have stood firm on this foundation and built our life upon it, we know that it cannot be taken away from us even in death. Then Paul continues: “Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:12-15). In this text, it is in any case evident that our salvation can take different forms, that some of what is built may be burned down, that in order to be saved we personally have to pass through “fire” so as to become fully open to receiving God and able to take our place at the table of the eternal marriage-feast.

47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ's Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart's time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ[39]. The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justice—the crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all. The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two together—judgement and grace—that justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation “with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our “advocate”, or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1).

I do not discern a substantive difference between St Mark and Pope Benedict.  Do you?
Logged

Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2011, 01:38:40 PM »

I'm kind of curious. Taking into account that our God is a consuming fire, would this statement be offensive to modern Catholic teaching and theologians/apologists? I'm only asking because the main objections being raised are to points that some might be more willing to acknowledge as being just opinion or speculation.

Quote
But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have no repented at all, or great ones for which--even though they have repented over them--they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins, but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place (for this, as we have said, has not at all be handed down to us). But some must be cleansed in the very departure from the body, thanks only to fear, as St. Gregory the Dialogist literally shows; while others must be cleansed after the departure from the body, either while remaining in the same earthly place, before they come to worship God and are honored with the lot of the blessed, or--if their sins were more serious and bind them for a longer duration--they are kept in [hades], but not in order to remain forever in fire and torment, but as it were in prison and confinement under guard.

All such ones, we affirm, are helped by the prayers and Liturgies performed for them, with the cooperation of the Divine goodness and love for mankind. This Divine cooperation immediately disdains and remits some sins, those committed out of human weakness, as Dionysius the Great (the Areopagite) says in 'Reflections on the Mystery of Those Reposed in Faith' (In 'The Ecclesiastical Hierarchy, 7, 7); while other sins, after a certain time, by righteous judgments it either likewise releases and forgives--and that completely--or lightens the responsibility for them until that final judgment. And therefore we see no necessity whatever for any other punishment or for a cleansing fire; for some are cleansed by fear, while others are devoured by gnawings of conscience with more torment than any fire, and still others are cleansed only the the very terror before the Divine Glory and the uncertainty as to what the future will be...

And so, we intreat God and believe to deliver the departed from (eternal torment), and not from any other torment or fire apart from those torments and that fire which have been proclaimed to be forever. And that, moreover, the souls of the departed are delivered by prayers from confinement in [hades], as if from a certain prison, is testified, among many others, by Theophanes the Confessor, called the Branded. ...In one of the canons for the reposed he thus prays for them: 'Deliver, O Savior, Thy slaves who are in the [hades] of tears and sighing' (Octoechos, Saturday canon for the deposed, Tone 8, Canticle 6, Glory).

-- St. Mark of Ephesus, First Homily on the Refutation of the Latin Chapters Concerning Purgatorial Fire

I would have to say Yes it is "offensive to modern Catholic teaching and theologians/apologist", because ultimately he is saying "The Catholics are wrong, and here's why." If he were instead saying "The Catholics are right, and here's why" that would be another matter.

And if the points that he refused to accept dogmatically are not even accepted as such by your church today? Is there disagreement with what he affirms to be true? Is there a strict belief that the points he rejects have to be accepted?
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2011, 01:51:00 PM »

I'm kind of curious. Taking into account that our God is a consuming fire, would this statement be offensive to modern Catholic teaching and theologians/apologists? I'm only asking because the main objections being raised are to points that some might be more willing to acknowledge as being just opinion or speculation.

Quote
But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have no repented at all, or great ones for which--even though they have repented over them--they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins, but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place (for this, as we have said, has not at all be handed down to us). But some must be cleansed in the very departure from the body, thanks only to fear, as St. Gregory the Dialogist literally shows; while others must be cleansed after the departure from the body, either while remaining in the same earthly place, before they come to worship God and are honored with the lot of the blessed, or--if their sins were more serious and bind them for a longer duration--they are kept in [hades], but not in order to remain forever in fire and torment, but as it were in prison and confinement under guard.

All such ones, we affirm, are helped by the prayers and Liturgies performed for them, with the cooperation of the Divine goodness and love for mankind. This Divine cooperation immediately disdains and remits some sins, those committed out of human weakness, as Dionysius the Great (the Areopagite) says in 'Reflections on the Mystery of Those Reposed in Faith' (In 'The Ecclesiastical Hierarchy, 7, 7); while other sins, after a certain time, by righteous judgments it either likewise releases and forgives--and that completely--or lightens the responsibility for them until that final judgment. And therefore we see no necessity whatever for any other punishment or for a cleansing fire; for some are cleansed by fear, while others are devoured by gnawings of conscience with more torment than any fire, and still others are cleansed only the the very terror before the Divine Glory and the uncertainty as to what the future will be...

And so, we intreat God and believe to deliver the departed from (eternal torment), and not from any other torment or fire apart from those torments and that fire which have been proclaimed to be forever. And that, moreover, the souls of the departed are delivered by prayers from confinement in [hades], as if from a certain prison, is testified, among many others, by Theophanes the Confessor, called the Branded. ...In one of the canons for the reposed he thus prays for them: 'Deliver, O Savior, Thy slaves who are in the [hades] of tears and sighing' (Octoechos, Saturday canon for the deposed, Tone 8, Canticle 6, Glory).

-- St. Mark of Ephesus, First Homily on the Refutation of the Latin Chapters Concerning Purgatorial Fire

I would have to say Yes it is "offensive to modern Catholic teaching and theologians/apologist", because ultimately he is saying "The Catholics are wrong, and here's why." If he were instead saying "The Catholics are right, and here's why" that would be another matter.

And if the points that he refused to accept dogmatically are not even accepted as such by your church today? Is there disagreement with what he affirms to be true? Is there a strict belief that the points he rejects have to be accepted?

It seems to me that the idea that Purgation, Hell and Heaven are "places" is part of the earliest and current understanding of the body and soul.  The body and soul are not separable so that when the body dies, we seem to always posit some sort of material vehicle for the soul until it is once again reunited with our glorified body when Jesus comes again in glory.

The whole idea of immortal soul has its own problems, in terms of its apostolic origins, and I am very happy that was not discussed at Florence or we may have more of a mess than we do today.  Nonetheless we cannot posit a body/soul dualism, nor are spirits immaterial, so it simply is reasonable to think of Heaven, Hell and Purgatory as 'places' with material bodies of some kind inhabiting them...whatever that means in life everlasting.

And fire, of course, is quite scriptural, old and new testament...It burns without consuming. 

So I really don't get Bishop Mark's difficulty, and so I just ignore it and move on. 


Logged

Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2011, 02:00:55 PM »

I do not discern a substantive difference between St Mark and Pope Benedict.  Do you?

The only noticable difference is the reference to "as through fire", but if we recognize God as a "consuming fire", and believe that the same "fire" causes the unrepentent to be destroyed and the glorified saints to shine, then the concept of that same "fire" burning away the sins that a person does not wish to hold onto may not be mutually exclusive. I believe the points being rejected by St Mark were that it is a literal fire, different than that which destroys the unrepentent, and the nature of the fire itself being temporary, which Pope Benedict does not seem to be asserting here. I believe the pope would in agreement with Orthodox teaching as far as that whatever happens to us after we die is a matter of how we encounter Christ and how we have conditioned oursleves in this life to encounter Him in the next.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,104



« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2011, 05:00:51 PM »

I'm kind of curious. Taking into account that our God is a consuming fire, would this statement be offensive to modern Catholic teaching and theologians/apologists? I'm only asking because the main objections being raised are to points that some might be more willing to acknowledge as being just opinion or speculation.

Quote
But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have no repented at all, or great ones for which--even though they have repented over them--they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins, but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place (for this, as we have said, has not at all be handed down to us). But some must be cleansed in the very departure from the body, thanks only to fear, as St. Gregory the Dialogist literally shows; while others must be cleansed after the departure from the body, either while remaining in the same earthly place, before they come to worship God and are honored with the lot of the blessed, or--if their sins were more serious and bind them for a longer duration--they are kept in [hades], but not in order to remain forever in fire and torment, but as it were in prison and confinement under guard.

All such ones, we affirm, are helped by the prayers and Liturgies performed for them, with the cooperation of the Divine goodness and love for mankind. This Divine cooperation immediately disdains and remits some sins, those committed out of human weakness, as Dionysius the Great (the Areopagite) says in 'Reflections on the Mystery of Those Reposed in Faith' (In 'The Ecclesiastical Hierarchy, 7, 7); while other sins, after a certain time, by righteous judgments it either likewise releases and forgives--and that completely--or lightens the responsibility for them until that final judgment. And therefore we see no necessity whatever for any other punishment or for a cleansing fire; for some are cleansed by fear, while others are devoured by gnawings of conscience with more torment than any fire, and still others are cleansed only the the very terror before the Divine Glory and the uncertainty as to what the future will be...

And so, we intreat God and believe to deliver the departed from (eternal torment), and not from any other torment or fire apart from those torments and that fire which have been proclaimed to be forever. And that, moreover, the souls of the departed are delivered by prayers from confinement in [hades], as if from a certain prison, is testified, among many others, by Theophanes the Confessor, called the Branded. ...In one of the canons for the reposed he thus prays for them: 'Deliver, O Savior, Thy slaves who are in the [hades] of tears and sighing' (Octoechos, Saturday canon for the deposed, Tone 8, Canticle 6, Glory).

-- St. Mark of Ephesus, First Homily on the Refutation of the Latin Chapters Concerning Purgatorial Fire

I would have to say Yes it is "offensive to modern Catholic teaching and theologians/apologist", because ultimately he is saying "The Catholics are wrong, and here's why." If he were instead saying "The Catholics are right, and here's why" that would be another matter.

And if the points that he refused to accept dogmatically are not even accepted as such by your church today? Is there disagreement with what he affirms to be true? Is there a strict belief that the points he rejects have to be accepted?

Those are good questions, but I would add one more to the list: Was St. Mark attacking a strawman?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 05:03:13 PM by Peter J » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
akimel
Fr Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR (Western Rite)
Posts: 519



WWW
« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2011, 05:07:21 PM »


The only noticable difference is the reference to "as through fire", but if we recognize God as a "consuming fire", and believe that the same "fire" causes the unrepentent to be destroyed and the glorified saints to shine, then the concept of that same "fire" burning away the sins that a person does not wish to hold onto may not be mutually exclusive. I believe the points being rejected by St Mark were that it is a literal fire, different than that which destroys the unrepentent, and the nature of the fire itself being temporary, which Pope Benedict does not seem to be asserting here. I believe the pope would in agreement with Orthodox teaching as far as that whatever happens to us after we die is a matter of how we encounter Christ and how we have conditioned oursleves in this life to encounter Him in the next.

That the "fire of purgatory" is physical fire was common Latin teaching at the time of the Council of Florence; but it was not dogmatically defined as such at Florence nor at any subsequent Western council.  Today Latin theologians commonly interpret this language figuratively.   
Logged

James Joseph
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Rite (Latin)
Posts: 15



« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2011, 02:52:18 AM »

No. For Catholic understanding of Divine Revelation, purgatory cannot be done away with. It would be easier to do away with the Moon and Stars.

Anything to the contrary is utter nonesense. Rightly speaking we all merit hell for our sins against Mary ever-Virgin, the holy Angels, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, Andrew and all the saints.


We must pass through the burning flame of the Sacred Heart of Christ by way of His Holy Five Wounds in order to enter everlasting life. In his heart we are burnt up. Both His Justice and His Mercy demand it.

I would wager His Holiness knows St Mark of Ephesus like the back of his own hand. His writing is beautiful and a gift. Deo Gratias.


More than likely he was exposed somehow, someway to Luther and his toilet finding their devil's best to do away with the Most Blessed Sacrament of the Altar.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 03:02:08 AM by James Joseph » Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,492



« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2011, 02:57:58 AM »

No. For Catholic understanding of Divine Revelation, purgatory cannot be done away with. It would be easier to do away with the Moon and Stars.

Anything to the contrary is utter nonesense.


More than likely he was exposed somehow, someway to Luther and his toilet.

You seem like quite the amiable chap  Tongue  Nonetheless, welcome to the forum!
Logged

Lt. Ray Makonnen: "You know, Captain, every year of my life I grow more and more convinced that the wisest and the best is to fix our attention on the good and the beautiful. If you just take the time to look at it."

Capt. Frank Chapman: "You're some guy, Makonnen."
James Joseph
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Rite (Latin)
Posts: 15



« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2011, 06:38:42 PM »

You seem like quite the amiable chap  Tongue  Nonetheless, welcome to the forum!

Thank you, sir. I was over at the Catholic forums but was banned for.... well... I actually don't know. I was just banned one-day.

Maybe it had something to do with me asking about the Missale peculiar to the Franciscan Rite. No, it the 1920 Missale Romanum editio typica.

Holy week changes... ugh!

Once again, thank you.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,104



« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2011, 08:46:30 PM »

You seem like quite the amiable chap  Tongue  Nonetheless, welcome to the forum!

Thank you, sir. I was over at the Catholic forums but was banned for.... well... I actually don't know. I was just banned one-day.

Maybe it had something to do with me asking about the Missale peculiar to the Franciscan Rite. No, it the 1920 Missale Romanum editio typica.

Holy week changes... ugh!

Once again, thank you.

Not sure what you mean by "the Catholic forums".
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.185 seconds with 82 queries.