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Author Topic: being European and less important  (Read 2915 times) Average Rating: 0
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henrikhankhagnell
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« on: May 01, 2011, 11:05:58 AM »

Pax et bonum!
I attend the liturgy of the Coptic Orthodox Church and they use too much Arabic. I do promise you that I hate it. It's like the Arabic speaking Copts are more important to them than the Europeans (in this case Swedes). Copts are worth much more than the Europeans. Cry
Have you, who are European, experienced this when attending an Oriental Orthodox liturgy? This seems to be a problem for all Europeans attending non-European churches. But I know that if you experience difficulties it can make you stronger. We all have heard about the Australian Father Lazaros.
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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2011, 11:12:25 AM »

If the majority of people in the congregation have Arabic as their first language, it makes sense that the liturgy would be in Arabic. 

Do they have liturgy books, or a power point screen that translate the liturgy into your language?
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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2011, 11:19:06 AM »

This seems to be a problem for all Europeans attending non-European churches.

The BOC in the UK is a non-European Church (in the sense that it's a part of a structure whose primate resides outside of Europe and is not a European) but has her services in the vernacular of the country it is based in.
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« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2011, 11:29:08 AM »

If the majority of people in the congregation have Arabic as their first language, it makes sense that the liturgy would be in Arabic.  

Do they have liturgy books, or a power point screen that translate the liturgy into your language?
they should use only coptic in the liturgy so all people will have to read translation.  I know that I often even get the homily translated but I still hate it when the priest speech his word removed Arabic instead of Swedish. Swedish is the language of Sweden and we live in Sweden!

This seems to be a problem for all Europeans attending non-European churches.

The BOC in the UK is a non-European Church (in the sense that it's a part of a structure whose primate resides outside of Europe and is not a European) but has her services in the vernacular of the country it is based in.
Huh Huh Huh


You may not realize it, but the word I removed is a very objectionable word in English.  Please keep your language clean.  Thank you.   Smiley


« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 11:36:06 AM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2011, 11:34:14 AM »

This seems to be a problem for all Europeans attending non-European churches.

The BOC in the UK is a non-European Church (in the sense that it's a part of a structure whose primate resides outside of Europe and is not a European) but has her services in the vernacular of the country it is based in.
Huh Huh Huh

www.britishorthodox.org
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« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2011, 12:56:07 PM »

I am not sure what you mean - in the case of the Armenian Apostolic Church while the "mother language" is Classical Armenian and the Divine Liturgy is in Classical Armenian, both modern Armenian (Eastern or Western) as well as the local language (English, French, etc) can be used in church. It is not a question of "who is worth more" - which is a questionable statement - but a question of historical heritage, which is very strong in Oriental Orthodox churches. The mission of the Armenian Apostolic Church for example is primarily to Armenians - everyone else is welcome of course but we are not going to suddenly drop Classical Armenian and start conducting services in another language instead...

"Astuats aend kez amenayn zham" (God be with you at all times),

e

Pax et bonum!
I attend the liturgy of the Coptic Orthodox Church and they use too much Arabic. I do promise you that I hate it. It's like the Arabic speaking Copts are more important to them than the Europeans (in this case Swedes). Copts are worth much more than the Europeans. Cry
Have you, who are European, experienced this when attending an Oriental Orthodox liturgy? This seems to be a problem for all Europeans attending non-European churches. But I know that if you experience difficulties it can make you stronger. We all have heard about the Australian Father Lazaros.

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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2011, 01:37:27 PM »

i will email my friend and ask them to use more english.
and yes, struggles make you closer to God  Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2011, 02:05:05 PM »

and yes, struggles make you closer to God  Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2011, 03:19:22 PM »

Did you attend any liturgy prayed by H.E. Anba Abakir of Scandinavia?! He is not fluent in Swedish, but he memorized the liturgy in Swedish and usually prays many parts in Swedish. I think he prays at the Södertälje church.
Our priest here in Göteborg came to Sweden last year and he keeps trying praying in Swedish even though he doesn't speak it well.. I am not sure about the situation in Stockholm, but please share your concerns with the priest there, I am sure he'll understand. you can also buy the Coptic/Arabic/Swedish "evkhologion"/kholagi and you'll be able to follow what they pray soon.
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« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2011, 03:42:28 PM »

Did you attend any liturgy prayed by H.E. Anba Abakir of Scandinavia?! He is not fluent in Swedish, but he memorized the liturgy in Swedish and usually prays many parts in Swedish. I think he prays at the Södertälje church.
Our priest here in Göteborg came to Sweden last year and he keeps trying praying in Swedish even though he doesn't speak it well.. I am not sure about the situation in Stockholm, but please share your concerns with the priest there, I am sure he'll understand. you can also buy the Coptic/Arabic/Swedish "evkhologion"/kholagi and you'll be able to follow what they pray soon.
I feel descriminated when they use Arabic even if there is a translation. Anba Abakir may sometimes come to Stockholm and pray some parts in Swedish but there is still too much Arabic for me. Watching the beatification of JP2 which I am doing right now help me understand that I want to be Westerner/European. The coptic church is too Coptic for me I guess. Maybe I am afraid because I love western christianity.

btw, what does the oriental orthodox church think about the beatification of JP2?
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« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2011, 04:32:45 PM »

I am sorry that you feel any sort of discrimination, but it's unintentional at all. What you are describing is painful, but this is what the Coptic Church faces in diaspora, and it's quite a dilemma, the congregants needs vary, and the churches have to find a compromise to meet all these needs. The situation in Sweden is difficult, there aren't many Swedish converts, and the Egyptians there would like to find a place that reminds them of their homeland, which usually entails Arabic as the medium of communication and prayer. This is a huge stumbling block to Swedes interested in the Coptic Orthodox faith. But I personally have seen some Swedes who were able by the Grace of the Lord to overcome these issues and become an integral part of the Coptic church in Sweden. I bet their motives and their persistence were stronger than the obstacles they faced and still face.
You mention that you love western Christianity, but what made you then look towards the east? there must be something lacking that you wanted to find somewhere else. You have to ask yourself, is it the correct dogma that you are trying to find? or are you satisfied by the practice over faith? will the culture differences stop you from pursuing the truth?


Regarding your question about the beatification of Pope JP2, I just remembered that when he visited Egypt more than 10 years ago, HH Pope Shenouda welcomed him gladly but he didn't participate in any liturgical celebration with him. So, I don't think there will be a reaction or an official position regarding his beatification.

May The Lord guide you through your quest, through the intercession of the Holy Theotokos.   
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« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2011, 04:40:20 PM »

Have you thought about finding the liturgy text online and copying it into a translator program, then printing it out as a booklet with each language on facing pages? I think something like that may help. I went to a church website and printed copies of the shorter services in Lent, and that really helped me a lot this time.

Hope you are able to find something that helps you.   Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2011, 04:52:53 PM »


Regarding your question about the beatification of Pope JP2, I just remembered that when he visited Egypt more than 10 years ago, HH Pope Shenouda welcomed him gladly but he didn't participate in any liturgical celebration with him. So, I don't think there will be a reaction or an official position regarding his beatification.   
They are both saints and I can't stand the disunity.  Cry Cry Cry
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« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2011, 05:00:52 PM »

But I personally have seen some Swedes who were able by the Grace of the Lord to overcome these issues and become an integral part of the Coptic church in Sweden. I bet their motives and their persistence were stronger than the obstacles they faced and still face.
We have a Swedish deacon Smiley laugh laugh laugh

You mention that you love western Christianity, but what made you then look towards the east? there must be something lacking that you wanted to find somewhere else. You have to ask yourself, is it the correct dogma that you are trying to find? or are you satisfied by the practice over faith? will the culture differences stop you from pursuing the truth?
I love the idea of being Christian and European at the same time! Not just leaving my European culture in order to be Christian.
And I love the Francoscan order. They are cool. I always wear the Tau cross (and a Coptic one).
http://britishorthodox.org/glastonbury-review-archive/misc/reconstructing-celtic-spirituality-searching-for-a-western-early-church/


May The Lord guide you through your quest, through the intercession of the Holy Theotokos.
Det hoppas jag verkligen!
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« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2011, 05:18:39 PM »


Regarding your question about the beatification of Pope JP2, I just remembered that when he visited Egypt more than 10 years ago, HH Pope Shenouda welcomed him gladly but he didn't participate in any liturgical celebration with him. So, I don't think there will be a reaction or an official position regarding his beatification.   
They are both saints and I can't stand the disunity.  Cry Cry Cry

Then you might be interested in reading this: http://www.coptics.info/Spirituals/Maged_Attia_THE_COPTIC_ORTHODOX_CHURCH_AND_THE_ECUMENICAL_MOVEMENT.pdf
It's worth mentioning that all the attempts of the Church of Rome to unite with the Coptic Church prior to Pope Shenouda III were basically demanding the recognition of and submitting to the Roman Pope.

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« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2011, 05:24:37 PM »

It's worth mentioning that all the attempts of the Church of Rome to unite with the Coptic Church prior to Pope Shenouda III were basically demanding the recognition of and submitting to the Roman Pope.

Well, some of the Copts agreed for these terms (hence the Coptic Catholic Church).
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« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2011, 05:28:41 PM »

almasiiH qaam!
Pax et bonum!
I attend the liturgy of the Coptic Orthodox Church and they use too much Arabic. I do promise you that I hate it. It's like the Arabic speaking Copts are more important to them than the Europeans (in this case Swedes). Copts are worth much more than the Europeans. Cry
Have you, who are European, experienced this when attending an Oriental Orthodox liturgy? This seems to be a problem for all Europeans attending non-European churches. But I know that if you experience difficulties it can make you stronger. We all have heard about the Australian Father Lazaros.

LOL. Soon you will all be speaking Arabic.  I used it all across Europe in the '80's.
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« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2011, 05:44:27 PM »

It's worth mentioning that all the attempts of the Church of Rome to unite with the Coptic Church prior to Pope Shenouda III were basically demanding the recognition of and submitting to the Roman Pope.

Well, some of the Copts agreed for these terms (hence the Coptic Catholic Church).

You are right, yet they remain very small in number compared the the Coptic Orthodox or even the Coptic protestant population.
And what really benefited the Coptic Catholic Church in Egypt was the French advisors political influence in the 19th century, and Mohammed Ali Egypt's ruler then favored the unity between the Roman and the Coptic Churches, he even supported the proselytizing of the Copts into the Roman Catholic faith.
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« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2011, 06:00:17 PM »

It's worth mentioning that all the attempts of the Church of Rome to unite with the Coptic Church prior to Pope Shenouda III were basically demanding the recognition of and submitting to the Roman Pope.

Well, some of the Copts agreed for these terms (hence the Coptic Catholic Church).

You are right, yet they remain very small in number compared the the Coptic Orthodox or even the Coptic protestant population.
And what really benefited the Coptic Catholic Church in Egypt was the French advisors political influence in the 19th century, and Mohammed Ali Egypt's ruler then favored the unity between the Roman and the Coptic Churches, he even supported the proselytizing of the Copts into the Roman Catholic faith.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmnl1sH8Ngg
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« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2011, 01:09:58 AM »

Have you, who are European, experienced this when attending an Oriental Orthodox liturgy?

Hmmmmm. I'm ethnically European but not nationally.

Yes, I certainly do have this experience. OO churches are really bad at serving the local culture.
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« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2011, 01:11:27 AM »

If the majority of people in the congregation have Arabic as their first language, it makes sense that the liturgy would be in Arabic.

If the majority of the people with Arabic as their first language speak and understand English sufficiently and are excluding people with English as their first language by choosing to conduct the liturgy in Arabic rather than English, then it makes sense for the liturgy to be served in English.
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« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2011, 01:16:22 AM »

both modern Armenian (Eastern or Western) as well as the local language (English, French, etc) can be used in church.

but we are not going to suddenly drop Classical Armenian and start conducting services in another language instead...

Huh?

The mission of the Armenian Apostolic Church for example is primarily to Armenians

Which makes sense in the Armenian homeland, but not in regions where Armenians are a minority and ought to be seeking to serve the people of the land they are in. Otherwise the diaspora churches should simply be abolished in favor of the ancient model of regional churches.
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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2011, 01:18:06 AM »

I feel descriminated when they use Arabic even if there is a translation. Anba Abakir may sometimes come to Stockholm and pray some parts in Swedish but there is still too much Arabic for me. Watching the beatification of JP2 which I am doing right now help me understand that I want to be Westerner/European. The coptic church is too Coptic for me I guess.

You are right. They are the ones failing, not you.

btw, what does the oriental orthodox church think about the beatification of JP2?

He's not Orthodox, so what should it matter?
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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2011, 01:20:01 AM »

I am sorry that you feel any sort of discrimination, but it's unintentional at all. What you are describing is painful, but this is what the Coptic Church faces in diaspora, and it's quite a dilemma, the congregants needs vary, and the churches have to find a compromise to meet all these needs.

All to often the effort towards that compromise is slim to none, essentially ignored.
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« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2011, 01:20:51 AM »

They are both saints and I can't stand the disunity.  Cry Cry Cry

Huh

You are calling a man who is not even dead yet a Saint?
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« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2011, 02:13:46 AM »

Deusveritasest,

When the people of the Church go into diaspora they fall into the danger of losing their faith, losing contact with the Church, and converting to other groups.  The Church needs to follow them and tend to their spiritual needs so this doesn't happen.  If you are a Copt in a foreign land, the Coptic Church is not going to be able to do this if it makes itself as foreign and non-Coptic as the local Lutheran Church. 

The Oriental Orthodox have gone into diaspora much more recently than other Christian peoples.  Many are grappling with adjusting to a new language and culture, and the only place where they feel truly at home is their church, where they can hear their language spoken, eat their own foods and be comfortable in their own culture.  The Church needs to provide this for them in diaspora so as not to lose them.  They need to be in a comfortable, "safe," place to feel at home to worship God in the way they were raised.

Making the Church over in a way that will make it alien to the people it followed will keep it from being able to adequately serve them.  I can tell you with certainty that if the Armenian churches here in Los Angeles began having services only in English, the number of people attending on Sundays would drop dramatically.  The people would instead start going to the Armenian Protestant churches where the services are in Armenian, and where the cultural context is one they are comfortable with.

Now I know you are concerned about the non-ethnic people who want to become Oriental Orthodox.  I understand you wanting an Oriental Orthodox Church that is culturally and linguistically American, just like Henrik wants one that is Swedish.  I hope someday that happens.  I hope someday we see the American and Swedish versions of the British Orthodox Church.

However, asking the Churches that are currently serving ethnic immigrants to make themselves American or Swedish is like asking a shepherd to turn his back on his current flock so that he can get a new one.  Just as you and Henrik don't feel comfortable having to immerse yourselves in Armenian or Coptic culture and language, the immigrants who brought these Churches over with them don't feel comfortable in American or Swedish culture and language.  Or at least they don't feel as comfortable with it as with the culture and language of the Old Country.

So basically, the OO Churches in diaspora can either make the recent immigrants feel comfortable and safe, or they can become American or Swedish so they can get converts from other Churches, while alienating their original flock.

I don't believe the latter option is right.  I don't believe it is right to ask the Oriental Orthodox Churches to basically dump their current ethnic congregations so they can go after converts from the Catholics and Protestants.  Their first obligation is to their original sheep.  A Church's first responsibility is to feed and care for its own sheep before going after the sheep of another flock. 

Now ideally it would be nice if the OO Churches in diaspora could do both.  We are talking, however, about Churches which are only fairly recently in diaspora.  Also, we are talking about Churches that have been hit terribly hard by persecution and don't have even remotely the same kind of resources that most other Churches have.

You need to be patient.  In the meantime, try to enjoy the baklava and learn a little bit of a new language.  It won't kill you.   Smiley   Or, maybe we can ask the British Orthodox to send a few missionaries our way.  Now that would be cool.   Cool



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« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2011, 04:15:05 AM »

i think it just needs some people to read the british orthodox website (britishorthodox.org) and take advice from their methods.
in my church we have quite a lot of english on sundays, but the weekday liturgies are almost wholly in arabic.
i think you could do something similar in armenian churches, having a fairly armenian liturgy one day and a fairly english/swedish/ whatever liturgy another day.

i, personally don't like the idea of churches which are homogenous by ethnicity or language, as it is not the way of the new testament churches. jews and gentiles worshipped together and even ate together!

so, the people in the diaspora need to get used to some foreign language (and the armenian stuffed vine leaves which are the best in the world but don't tell the arabs!) and the people in the church need to accept that they are in a foreign country and a large part of the service will be in the language of that country.
there will be translations in their language, and services sometimes will also be in their language, but if they can keep the culture and the food, i don't think getting used to a new language is too much to ask, especially as there are a lot of pagans and athiests in the diaspora who urgently need to know about God.
who will we leave to tell them, if not the orthodox churches? 
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« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2011, 08:28:01 AM »

Kristus är uppstånden!

I don't mean to proselytize and I don't know whether you have some theological objections to this but have you tried attending EO churches in Sweden? I don't know much about Eastern Orthodoxy in Sweden and of course it wouldn't be the same as attending OO services but maybe you could pay a visit in hope of more Swedish services. If you feel more at home with other Scandinavians and happen to live nearby Stockholm you could try contacting Finska Ortodoxa Församlingen i Sverige. The website says that while being bi-lingual it's official language is Swedish. And they might know other Swedish services elsewhere in Sweden.

Just a thought.
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« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2011, 12:33:49 PM »

Alpo, slightly off topic...

Has the Orthodox Church of Finland always used Finnish?

I used to work in Helsinki a great deal but was never around at weekends so I never made it to liturgies. I did visit the Uspenski Cathedral one evening when my employer arranged for it to be open for me.

Also, I always wanted to visit Uusi Valamo. Have you been there and is it worth spending a few days there?

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« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2011, 04:16:21 PM »

It is prophesised that Sweden will return to the Roman Catholic Church. Up to the Roman liturgical reform, all the churches of Lesser Poland prayed for the conversion of Sweden. The Lutheran error is a hard one to reject, Protestantism is a curse. I suggest that you look into the Catholic Church.
http://www.katolskakyrkan.se/1/1.0.1.0/24/1/
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« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2011, 04:53:56 PM »

Kristus är uppstånden!

It is prophesised that Sweden will return to the Roman Catholic Church. Up to the Roman liturgical reform, all the churches of Lesser Poland prayed for the conversion of Sweden. The Lutheran error is a hard one to reject, Protestantism is a curse. I suggest that you look into the Catholic Church.
http://www.katolskakyrkan.se/1/1.0.1.0/24/1/

He already is.
http://www.ortodox-finsk.se/index.php/fi
Btw, if, God forbid, you can't be received into Orthodoxy, can you try the Nordic Catholic Church?
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« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2011, 04:33:12 AM »

This is a relatively constant topic. Everyone's experience is different, but I've thus far found many liturgies of the Coptic Orthodox Church in English, Spanish, and a few other languages, commensurate with the size and age of the Church as it exists in the places where those languages are used by the people. I am on the outside looking in still, but it seems to me that things are at least getting better, if not always as quickly as we'd like them to. It is good to keep in mind that the Coptic Church of Alexandria, dating back to the Apostolic age, has had many, many centuries of being perfectly at home in its African/Middle Eastern context, and that the churches that are considered in some way its daughters were founded in accordance with the regional church model mentioned by Deusveritasest, i.e. the churches what is now Ethiopia and Eritrea worshiped in what was, at the time of their founding, the main local language (Ge'ez), and likewise with the church in Nubia, which used the Old Nubian language. It is only very, very recently in their history that the Coptic Orthodox Church would have had to worry about having their texts available in western languages. From what I've seen, the church only came to Sweden in 1993. I'm much older than that, and I'm not very old. Put in the context of their entire history, I think the Copts are coping as well as can be expected. Nothing's ever perfect, but certainly things will get better as the Copts become more integrated into Swedish society and a second generation is raised speaking Swedish.

Most important is that nothing get in the way of spreading the Gospel!

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« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2011, 06:14:04 AM »

Father, bless.

Has the Orthodox Church of Finland always used Finnish?

Nope. Actually at start part of the Finnish faithful were objecting use of Finnish language. Originally the Church in Finland was using Slavonic. I believe services were translated into Finnish in the begining of 20th century but I don't know how long did it take until Finnish was the main language of the services. Probably Finnish Nationalism did away with Slavonic services rather swiftly but it could be that in some places Slavonic was retained even decades after that. That was the case in the New Valamo and Lintula monasteries.

It could be though that some prayers had already been translated into Finnish before that.

Quote
Also, I always wanted to visit Uusi Valamo. Have you been there and is it worth spending a few days there.

I've been there as as voluntary worker but it's the only male monastery I've visited so I don't know how it differs from other monasteries. It depends what you're looking for. If you're looking for more ascetic and peaceful monasticism then New Valamo is a wrong monastery for you since it's main occupation is tourism and there's lots of them at least during summer. But if you don't mind tourists then I guess it's never a bad idea to make a small pilgrimage to a monastery.

Nearby New Valamo there's also Lintula female monastery. There are less tourists so you might want to visit also there. Many who dislike New Valamo because of tourists seem to like Lintula.
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« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2011, 02:23:26 AM »

It is prophesised that Sweden will return to the Roman Catholic Church. Up to the Roman liturgical reform, all the churches of Lesser Poland prayed for the conversion of Sweden. The Lutheran error is a hard one to reject, Protestantism is a curse. I suggest that you look into the Catholic Church.
http://www.katolskakyrkan.se/1/1.0.1.0/24/1/


Who prophesised this?  I've heard that England would go RC again sometime in the future, but Sweden? 

Also, do you have the text of the prayer that used to be said in the churches of lower Poland for the conversion fo the Swedes and, if so could you give me and English translation?
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« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2011, 03:18:08 PM »

Is there an Oriental Orthodox Church you could try that isn't Coptic? The Copts are a people as well as a religion, so if you don't feel comfortable with Coptic culture, but want to be Oriental Orthodox, you might try a different OOC.
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« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2011, 03:34:02 PM »

It is prophesised that Sweden will return to the Roman Catholic Church. Up to the Roman liturgical reform, all the churches of Lesser Poland prayed for the conversion of Sweden. The Lutheran error is a hard one to reject, Protestantism is a curse. I suggest that you look into the Catholic Church.
http://www.katolskakyrkan.se/1/1.0.1.0/24/1/


Who prophesised this?  I've heard that England would go RC again sometime in the future, but Sweden? 

Also, do you have the text of the prayer that used to be said in the churches of lower Poland for the conversion fo the Swedes and, if so could you give me and English translation?
This is an old prophecy; it is commonly said that after the Swedish invasion, after the coronation of the Blessed Virgin as Queen of Poland in 1656, a priest had a vision, in which the Virgin said that Sweden will return to the Faith. This is our hope, and it will happen.

Little Poland, Małopolska not Lower Poland. This is general all of modern south-eastern Poland, the main see is Kraków.

Mass texts the same as November 1, except:
Collect
Infirmitatem nostram, quaesumus, Domine, propitius respice : et mala omnia, quae pro peccatis nostris iuste meremur, Sanctorum tuorum huius regni Patronorum intercessione clementer averte. Per Dominum..
We beseech thee, o Lord, look upon our infirmity and by the intercession of the holy Patrons of this kingdom, protect us from all of the evil, which we by our sins rightly deserve. Through our Lord.
Lesson from Mass nr 13 Intret Wisdom 3: 1-8
Postcommunion
Da, quaesumus, Domine Deus noster : ut, sicut tuorum commemoratione Sanctorum temporali gratulamur officio; ita prepetuo laetamur aspectu. Per Dominum
Allow, Lord God, that we may so shall rejoice of the vision of your saints in eternity, as we rejoice in temporal commemoration.
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« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2011, 11:11:36 PM »

What's stopping you from learning Arabic?  Huh

As Arabic is the main working language of the Coptic Church, why not learn it? As it is a new immigrant community, I wouldn't expect them to change to English any time soon, if ever.
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« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2011, 11:26:40 PM »

Just a clarification:  Henrik is in Sweden.  He wants them to use more Swedish, not English.

We in the Anglosphere already have a bad enough reputation for demanding people use our language.  Smiley
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« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2011, 12:52:10 AM »

If the majority of people in the congregation have Arabic as their first language, it makes sense that the liturgy would be in Arabic.  

Do they have liturgy books, or a power point screen that translate the liturgy into your language?
they should use only coptic in the liturgy so all people will have to read translation.  I know that I often even get the homily translated but I still hate it when the priest speech his word removed Arabic instead of Swedish. Swedish is the language of Sweden and we live in Sweden!

This seems to be a problem for all Europeans attending non-European churches.

The BOC in the UK is a non-European Church (in the sense that it's a part of a structure whose primate resides outside of Europe and is not a European) but has her services in the vernacular of the country it is based in.
Huh Huh Huh


You may not realize it, but the word I removed is a very objectionable word in English.  Please keep your language clean.  Thank you.   Smiley




Nevermind..... accidental post :-P
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« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2011, 06:49:41 AM »

this is an old thread.
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« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2011, 08:01:58 AM »

this is an old thread.
An oldie but goodie.
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« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2011, 09:36:07 AM »

Um... yeah... 2011... real old...  Tongue
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