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Author Topic: Vatican sees no future for married clergy in Anglican Ordinariate  (Read 6783 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 30, 2011, 12:10:02 PM »

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Married priests will be only a temporary aberration within the Anglican Ordinariate, says Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican’s secretary of state. Speaking in an interview in the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore  Romano, and in recently published extracts from his forthcoming book, A Great Heart: Homage to John Paul II, Bertone said that although already married Anglican priests will be acceptable under the ordinariate, “the enduring value of celibacy will be reaffirmed, necessitating that for the future, unmarried priests will be the norm in such ordinariates.” Until then, the procedures developed by Pope John Paul II for the reception of already married Anglican clergy will apply.
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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2011, 12:25:00 PM »

Should anyone be really surprised by this?

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2011, 12:29:09 PM »

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and clerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition. I think it would be confusing to still have the Latin rite clergy remain celibate while allowing marriage in the Anglican rite.
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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2011, 12:31:31 PM »

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and clerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition. I think it would be confusing to still have the Latin rite clergy remain celibate while allowing marriage in the Anglican rite.
I agree. Or should I say "hear hear!" :p

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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2011, 12:35:41 PM »

Out of curiosity, what is the protocol for Anglican Churches that want to be received into the Eastern Orthodox Church? Do they basically keep the same liturgy while becoming a part of your Church or do they generally switch to a specifically EO liturgy?
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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2011, 12:53:14 PM »

Out of curiosity, what is the protocol for Anglican Churches that want to be received into the Eastern Orthodox Church? Do they basically keep the same liturgy while becoming a part of your Church or do they generally switch to a specifically EO liturgy?

If they are joining a jurisdiction that has the Western Rite (such as Antiochians), they would be able to use one of the approved Western liturgies; most likely the Mass of St. Tikhon, which is based on the 1928 BCP.

I believe ROCOR has their own English liturgy for Anglicans/Episcopalians, but I don't know much about it.
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« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2011, 01:27:42 PM »

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Married priests will be only a temporary aberration within the Anglican Ordinariate, says Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican’s secretary of state. Speaking in an interview in the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore  Romano, and in recently published extracts from his forthcoming book, A Great Heart: Homage to John Paul II, Bertone said that although already married Anglican priests will be acceptable under the ordinariate, “the enduring value of celibacy will be reaffirmed, necessitating that for the future, unmarried priests will be the norm in such ordinariates.” Until then, the procedures developed by Pope John Paul II for the reception of already married Anglican clergy will apply.


This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

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« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2011, 05:45:30 PM »

Welcome to the real world.

This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

What are you talking about. Petition to whom? To Pope? Every time an Eastern Catholic seminary student wants to marry?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 05:47:03 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2011, 06:24:39 PM »

Christ is risen!
Should anyone be really surprised by this?

No.
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« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2011, 06:27:42 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

 
I think it would be confusing to still have the Latin rite clergy remain celibate while allowing marriage in the Anglican rite.
I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.
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« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2011, 06:29:24 PM »

Christ is risen!
Quote
Married priests will be only a temporary aberration within the Anglican Ordinariate, says Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican’s secretary of state. Speaking in an interview in the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore  Romano, and in recently published extracts from his forthcoming book, A Great Heart: Homage to John Paul II, Bertone said that although already married Anglican priests will be acceptable under the ordinariate, “the enduring value of celibacy will be reaffirmed, necessitating that for the future, unmarried priests will be the norm in such ordinariates.” Until then, the procedures developed by Pope John Paul II for the reception of already married Anglican clergy will apply.


This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.


Yes. we see how well that works.
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« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2011, 06:31:23 PM »

Chrystus zmartwychwstał!
Welcome to the real world.

This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

What are you talking about. Petition to whom? To Pope? Every time an Eastern Catholic seminary student wants to marry?
Yes.  Evidently we have to get word from on high to ordain what God has joined together.
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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2011, 07:15:30 PM »

Welcome to the real world.

This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

What are you talking about. Petition to whom? To Pope? Every time an Eastern Catholic seminary student wants to marry?

You have no idea what it took for Pope Benedict to be able to offer that prelature so that the Anglican rite would become one of the several western rites in the Roman Church without having it be absorbed into the Roman rite.  No idea at all of the great achievement in diplomacy that was on the part of our current Pope.  Nor do you have any idea what it cost him.

So yes.  For the time being, married priests in the Catholic Church will be ordained on a case by case basis, and the tradition will survive and I hope it will thrive.

If you want see how a well oiled hierarchical wheel runs, take a look at the Roman Curia.  If you want to see how a well oiled conciliar wheel runs, take a look at the OCA today.  They operate about as well and as cheerfully.
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2011, 08:19:47 PM »

I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2011, 08:22:19 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)
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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2011, 08:25:32 PM »

I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church. The only one that I know that they do believe in that list is the filioque.
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« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2011, 09:08:01 PM »

The only one that I know that they do believe in that list is the filioque.

Not all of them believe in it at all. And some believe in the filioque but not in the apparent Late Medieval Roman sense. So I think it's often exaggerated how much Anglicans are one in belief with the Romans on the filioque.
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« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2011, 09:40:54 PM »

I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church.

True. However, I think you missed my point.
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« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2011, 09:42:25 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.  I Timothy 4:1-4

Semi-manichaeism, and maybe not semi.
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« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2011, 09:47:26 PM »

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and clerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition. I think it would be confusing to still have the Latin rite clergy remain celibate while allowing marriage in the Anglican rite.
I agree. Or should I say "hear hear!" :p

In Christ,
Andrew

As far as the conclusion goes, I agree that it's not at all surprising; however one of the statements he makes along the way

Quote
Bertone said that although already married Anglican priests will be acceptable under the ordinariate, “the enduring value of celibacy will be reaffirmed, necessitating that for the future, unmarried priests will be the norm in such ordinariates.”

make it sound like those Churches which don't have a mandatory clerical celibacy policy don't affirm the enduring value of celibacy.
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« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2011, 09:50:25 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)

So far as I've ever read, Orthodoxy doesn't. That doesn't prevent ialmisry individual Orthodox from striking out on their own and giving their opinion, of course.
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« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2011, 09:51:47 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.  I Timothy 4:1-4

Semi-manichaeism, and maybe not semi.

Interesting. I always thought those verses refer to the evil Eastern Orthodox, who don't allow married bishops.  Shocked
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« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2011, 09:53:41 PM »

That doesn't prevent individual Orthodox from striking out on their own and giving their opinion, of course.

I thought only western Christians did that.  Grin
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« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2011, 10:11:21 PM »

Welcome to the real world.

This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

What are you talking about. Petition to whom? To Pope? Every time an Eastern Catholic seminary student wants to marry?

You have no idea what it took for Pope Benedict to be able to offer that prelature so that the Anglican rite would become one of the several western rites in the Roman Church without having it be absorbed into the Roman rite.  No idea at all of the great achievement in diplomacy that was on the part of our current Pope.  Nor do you have any idea what it cost him.

So yes.  For the time being, married priests in the Catholic Church will be ordained on a case by case basis, and the tradition will survive and I hope it will thrive.

If you want see how a well oiled hierarchical wheel runs, take a look at the Roman Curia.  If you want to see how a well oiled conciliar wheel runs, take a look at the OCA today.  They operate about as well and as cheerfully.

A great observation indeed....
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« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2011, 10:21:47 PM »

Christ is risen!
I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church.

True. However, I think you missed my point.
no, he hit it head on.  If one swallows Pastor Aeternus as the Western tradition, it comes with a side order of Ineffibilus Deus and the Lyons/Florence combo, with  Pastores Dabo Vobis as desert.

Quote
A testimony given under such circumstances carries more weight than long explanations would do. Neither was it the only occasion on which the historian so expressed himself. "When a priest", Döllinger wrote in a letter to one of his Old Catholic friends in 1876, "can no longer point to personal sacrifice which he makes for the good of his people, then it is all over with him and the cause which he represents. He sinks to the level of men who make a trade of their work [Er rangiert dann mit den Gewerbetreibenden]." (See Michael, Ignaz von Döllinger, ed. 1894, p. 249.)
Nihil Obstat. November 1, 1908. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm
Given the rampent nepoticism and clericalism in the hayday of the Vatican's "celibate" culture (e.g. the Borgias), in the face of such married priests as St. Innocent of Alaska, and indeed St. Peter himself, and the present scandals, this is a rather rich boast.
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« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2011, 10:23:34 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.  I Timothy 4:1-4

Semi-manichaeism, and maybe not semi.

Interesting. I always thought those verses refer to the evil Eastern Orthodox, who don't allow married bishops.  Shocked
we have one in Chicago right now. And the first one to take up his see in North America, the first primate of North America and the predecessor of Met. Jonah was one as well.
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« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2011, 10:45:25 PM »

Christ is risen!
I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church.

True. However, I think you missed my point.
no, he hit it head on.

My point was that, if an Anglican priest wants to become Eastern Orthodox, he (or she) has to accept Orthodox doctrine. Right?
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« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2011, 10:46:27 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)

So far as I've ever read, Orthodoxy doesn't. That doesn't prevent ialmisry individual Orthodox from striking out on their own and giving their opinion, of course.
Oh? And what have you read?

Quote
....As soon as it was introduced into the Churches of the West it brought forth disgraceful fruits, bringing with it, little by little, other novelties, for the most part contrary to the express commands of our Savior in the Gospel—commands which till its entrance into the Churches were closely observed. Among these novelties may be numbered sprinkling instead of baptism, denial of the divine Cup to the Laity, elevation of one and the same bread broken, the use of wafers, unleavened instead of real bread, the disuse of the Benediction in the Liturgies, even of the sacred Invocation of the All-holy and Consecrating Spirit, the abandonment of the old Apostolic Mysteries of the Church, such as not anointing baptized infants, or their not receiving the Eucharist, the exclusion of married men from the Priesthood, the infallibility of the Pope and his claim as Vicar of Christ, and the like. Thus it was that the interpolation led to the setting aside of the old Apostolic pattern of well nigh all the Mysteries and all doctrine, a pattern which the ancient, holy, and orthodox Church of Rome kept, when she was the most honored part of the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...

+ ANTHIMOS, by the Mercy of God, Archbishop of Constantinople, new Rome, and Ecumenical Patriarch, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ HIEROTHEUS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Alexandria and of all Egypt, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ METHODIOS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of the great City of God, Antioch, and of all Anatolia, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ CYRIL, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Jerusalem and of all Palestine, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

 

The Holy Synod in Constantinople:

+ PAISIUS OF CAESAREA

+ ANTHIMUS OF EPHESUS

+ DIONYSIUS OF HERACLEA

+ JOACHIM OF CYZICUS

+ DIONYSIUS OF NICODEMIA

+ HIEROTHEUS OF CHALCEDON

+ NEOPHYTUS OF DERCI

+ GERASIMUS OF ADRIANOPLE

+ CYRIL OF NEOCAESAREA

+ THEOCLETUS OF BEREA

+ MELETIUS OF PISIDIA

+ ATHANASIUS OF SMYRNA

+ DIONYSIUS OF MELENICUS

+ PAISIUS OF SOPHIA

+ DANIEL OF LEMNOS

+ PANTELEIMON OF DEYINOPOLIS

+ JOSEPH OF ERSECIUM

+ ANTHIMUS OF BODENI

 

The Holy Synod in Antioch:

+ ZACHARIAS OF ARCADIA

+ METHODIOS OF EMESA

+ JOANNICIUS OF TRIPOLIS

+ ARTEMIUS OF LAODICEA

 

The Holy Synod in Jerusalem:

+ MELETIUS OF PETRA

+ DIONYSIUS OF BETHLEHEM

+ PHILEMON OF GAZA

+ SAMUEL OF NEAPOLIS

+ THADDEUS OF SEBASTE

+ JOANNICIUS OF PHILADELPHIA

+ HIEROTHEUS OF TABOR
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx
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« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2011, 10:47:39 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.  I Timothy 4:1-4

Semi-manichaeism, and maybe not semi.

Interesting. I always thought those verses refer to the evil Eastern Orthodox, who don't allow married bishops.  Shocked
we have one in Chicago right now. And the first one to take up his see in North America, the first primate of North America and the predecessor of Met. Jonah was one as well.

Ah ... I guess my attempt at humor kind of flopped, then.
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« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2011, 10:49:07 PM »

Christ is risen!
I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church.

True. However, I think you missed my point.
no, he hit it head on.

My point was that, if an Anglican priest wants to become Eastern Orthodox, he (or she) has to accept Orthodox doctrine. Right?
Indeed!  But, rather disingenuously, it is said that mandated celibacy is a discipline not a doctrine, and its seems, from what some say, that they expected that married clergy would be a permanent part of the Anglican use, as, supposedly, it is among the Vatican's Eastern rites.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2011, 10:52:40 PM »

Christ is risen!
Welcome to the real world.

This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

What are you talking about. Petition to whom? To Pope? Every time an Eastern Catholic seminary student wants to marry?

You have no idea what it took for Pope Benedict to be able to offer that prelature so that the Anglican rite would become one of the several western rites in the Roman Church without having it be absorbed into the Roman rite.  No idea at all of the great achievement in diplomacy that was on the part of our current Pope.  Nor do you have any idea what it cost him.
So much fior the much vaunted claims of Pastor Aeternus.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2011, 10:53:16 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)

So far as I've ever read, Orthodoxy doesn't. That doesn't prevent ialmisry individual Orthodox from striking out on their own and giving their opinion, of course.
Oh? And what have you read?

Quote
....As soon as it was introduced into the Churches of the West it brought forth disgraceful fruits, bringing with it, little by little, other novelties, for the most part contrary to the express commands of our Savior in the Gospel—commands which till its entrance into the Churches were closely observed. Among these novelties may be numbered sprinkling instead of baptism, denial of the divine Cup to the Laity, elevation of one and the same bread broken, the use of wafers, unleavened instead of real bread, the disuse of the Benediction in the Liturgies, even of the sacred Invocation of the All-holy and Consecrating Spirit, the abandonment of the old Apostolic Mysteries of the Church, such as not anointing baptized infants, or their not receiving the Eucharist, the exclusion of married men from the Priesthood, the infallibility of the Pope and his claim as Vicar of Christ, and the like. Thus it was that the interpolation led to the setting aside of the old Apostolic pattern of well nigh all the Mysteries and all doctrine, a pattern which the ancient, holy, and orthodox Church of Rome kept, when she was the most honored part of the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...

+ ANTHIMOS, by the Mercy of God, Archbishop of Constantinople, new Rome, and Ecumenical Patriarch, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ HIEROTHEUS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Alexandria and of all Egypt, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ METHODIOS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of the great City of God, Antioch, and of all Anatolia, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ CYRIL, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Jerusalem and of all Palestine, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

 

The Holy Synod in Constantinople:

+ PAISIUS OF CAESAREA

+ ANTHIMUS OF EPHESUS

+ DIONYSIUS OF HERACLEA

+ JOACHIM OF CYZICUS

+ DIONYSIUS OF NICODEMIA

+ HIEROTHEUS OF CHALCEDON

+ NEOPHYTUS OF DERCI

+ GERASIMUS OF ADRIANOPLE

+ CYRIL OF NEOCAESAREA

+ THEOCLETUS OF BEREA

+ MELETIUS OF PISIDIA

+ ATHANASIUS OF SMYRNA

+ DIONYSIUS OF MELENICUS

+ PAISIUS OF SOPHIA

+ DANIEL OF LEMNOS

+ PANTELEIMON OF DEYINOPOLIS

+ JOSEPH OF ERSECIUM

+ ANTHIMUS OF BODENI

 

The Holy Synod in Antioch:

+ ZACHARIAS OF ARCADIA

+ METHODIOS OF EMESA

+ JOANNICIUS OF TRIPOLIS

+ ARTEMIUS OF LAODICEA

 

The Holy Synod in Jerusalem:

+ MELETIUS OF PETRA

+ DIONYSIUS OF BETHLEHEM

+ PHILEMON OF GAZA

+ SAMUEL OF NEAPOLIS

+ THADDEUS OF SEBASTE

+ JOANNICIUS OF PHILADELPHIA

+ HIEROTHEUS OF TABOR
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx

I have no doubt that "the exclusion of married men from the Priesthood" is problematic from the EO point of view. I believe Asteriktos was just telling me that it isn't considered a heresy.
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« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2011, 10:55:58 PM »

Christ is risen!
I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church.

True. However, I think you missed my point.
no, he hit it head on.

My point was that, if an Anglican priest wants to become Eastern Orthodox, he (or she) has to accept Orthodox doctrine. Right?
Indeed!  But, rather disingenuously, it is said that mandated celibacy is a discipline not a doctrine, and its seems, from what some say, that they expected that married clergy would be a permanent part of the Anglican use, as, supposedly, it is among the Vatican's Eastern rites.

I can neither confirm nor deny that expectation. (Well, not tonight anyhow.)
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« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2011, 12:40:33 AM »

Welcome to the real world.

This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

What are you talking about. Petition to whom? To Pope? Every time an Eastern Catholic seminary student wants to marry?

You have no idea what it took for Pope Benedict to be able to offer that prelature so that the Anglican rite would become one of the several western rites in the Roman Church without having it be absorbed into the Roman rite.  No idea at all of the great achievement in diplomacy that was on the part of our current Pope.  Nor do you have any idea what it cost him.

So yes.  For the time being, married priests in the Catholic Church will be ordained on a case by case basis, and the tradition will survive and I hope it will thrive.

If you want see how a well oiled hierarchical wheel runs, take a look at the Roman Curia.  If you want to see how a well oiled conciliar wheel runs, take a look at the OCA today.  They operate about as well and as cheerfully.

What exactly did He have to do in order to get this pastoral provision?  Do you know and, if so how did you find out anyway?
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-- Gustave Flaubert
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« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2011, 12:46:20 AM »

Do Western rite Orthodox priest have to obey the same type of prohibitions against relations with their wives that exist in the rest of Orthodoxy?
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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
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« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2011, 12:49:55 AM »

Christ is risen!
Do Western rite Orthodox priest have to obey the same type of prohibitions against relations with their wives that exist in the rest of Orthodoxy?
LOL. Since lEO aymen do as well, I'd say yes.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 12:50:21 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2011, 12:51:54 AM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)

So far as I've ever read, Orthodoxy doesn't. That doesn't prevent ialmisry individual Orthodox from striking out on their own and giving their opinion, of course.
Oh? And what have you read?

Quote
....As soon as it was introduced into the Churches of the West it brought forth disgraceful fruits, bringing with it, little by little, other novelties, for the most part contrary to the express commands of our Savior in the Gospel—commands which till its entrance into the Churches were closely observed. Among these novelties may be numbered sprinkling instead of baptism, denial of the divine Cup to the Laity, elevation of one and the same bread broken, the use of wafers, unleavened instead of real bread, the disuse of the Benediction in the Liturgies, even of the sacred Invocation of the All-holy and Consecrating Spirit, the abandonment of the old Apostolic Mysteries of the Church, such as not anointing baptized infants, or their not receiving the Eucharist, the exclusion of married men from the Priesthood, the infallibility of the Pope and his claim as Vicar of Christ, and the like. Thus it was that the interpolation led to the setting aside of the old Apostolic pattern of well nigh all the Mysteries and all doctrine, a pattern which the ancient, holy, and orthodox Church of Rome kept, when she was the most honored part of the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...

+ ANTHIMOS, by the Mercy of God, Archbishop of Constantinople, new Rome, and Ecumenical Patriarch, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ HIEROTHEUS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Alexandria and of all Egypt, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ METHODIOS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of the great City of God, Antioch, and of all Anatolia, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ CYRIL, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Jerusalem and of all Palestine, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

 

The Holy Synod in Constantinople:

+ PAISIUS OF CAESAREA

+ ANTHIMUS OF EPHESUS

+ DIONYSIUS OF HERACLEA

+ JOACHIM OF CYZICUS

+ DIONYSIUS OF NICODEMIA

+ HIEROTHEUS OF CHALCEDON

+ NEOPHYTUS OF DERCI

+ GERASIMUS OF ADRIANOPLE

+ CYRIL OF NEOCAESAREA

+ THEOCLETUS OF BEREA

+ MELETIUS OF PISIDIA

+ ATHANASIUS OF SMYRNA

+ DIONYSIUS OF MELENICUS

+ PAISIUS OF SOPHIA

+ DANIEL OF LEMNOS

+ PANTELEIMON OF DEYINOPOLIS

+ JOSEPH OF ERSECIUM

+ ANTHIMUS OF BODENI

 

The Holy Synod in Antioch:

+ ZACHARIAS OF ARCADIA

+ METHODIOS OF EMESA

+ JOANNICIUS OF TRIPOLIS

+ ARTEMIUS OF LAODICEA

 

The Holy Synod in Jerusalem:

+ MELETIUS OF PETRA

+ DIONYSIUS OF BETHLEHEM

+ PHILEMON OF GAZA

+ SAMUEL OF NEAPOLIS

+ THADDEUS OF SEBASTE

+ JOANNICIUS OF PHILADELPHIA

+ HIEROTHEUS OF TABOR
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx

I have no doubt that "the exclusion of married men from the Priesthood" is problematic from the EO point of view. I believe Asteriktos was just telling me that it isn't considered a heresy.
Since it is listed right before the Vatican's claims of infallibilty, I think Asteriktos is downplaying things.  In fact, since I have seen much on this, I know he is.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 12:52:48 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2011, 12:52:04 AM »

a couple can't sleep together before going to the DL (Or is that just for communing)?

You learn something new every day I guess.
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-- Gustave Flaubert
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« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2011, 07:36:24 AM »


Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

Then which road are your mandated celibate bishops leading your church down? Start consecrated married priests as bishops or your attack lacks foundation. I'll be waiting...
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« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2011, 07:39:03 AM »

I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church. The only one that I know that they do believe in that list is the filioque.
I think you are mistaken, but even if you are right, isn't the filioque alone a deal-breaker?
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« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 07:58:48 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged
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« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2011, 09:36:16 AM »

You have no idea what it took for Pope Benedict to be able to offer that prelature so that the Anglican rite would become one of the several western rites in the Roman Church without having it be absorbed into the Roman rite.

What do you mean by that? The Anglican use of the Roman rite exists in the RCC since the 1980s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Divine_Worship) so the current developments are no revolution at all.

No idea at all of the great achievement in diplomacy that was on the part of our current Pope.  Nor do you have any idea what it cost him.

What exactly are you talking about? Metropolitans Philip (AOCA) and Hilarion (ROCOR) did something very similar and I don't think they needed to employ much diplomacy or bear any significant costs. Does it mean that they have greater power in their Churches then Pope Benedict in his?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 09:38:40 AM by Michał » Logged
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« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2011, 10:57:47 AM »

Christ is risen!
Welcome to the real world.

This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

What are you talking about. Petition to whom? To Pope? Every time an Eastern Catholic seminary student wants to marry?

You have no idea what it took for Pope Benedict to be able to offer that prelature so that the Anglican rite would become one of the several western rites in the Roman Church without having it be absorbed into the Roman rite.  No idea at all of the great achievement in diplomacy that was on the part of our current Pope.  Nor do you have any idea what it cost him.
So much fior the much vaunted claims of Pastor Aeternus.

They are about as efficacious as those vaulted claims for consiliarism, sobornost and synergy that really only pertain in the third heaven or higher.... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2011, 12:28:24 PM »

a couple can't sleep together before going to the DL (Or is that just for communing)?

You learn something new every day I guess.

Communing. It's part of the Eucharistic fast. As well as other fasting days (Wed, Fri, Lent, etc)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 12:30:01 PM by bogdan » Logged
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« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2011, 06:00:36 PM »

What's shocking in this all?
Nothing. Normal Catholics would be confounded and angry if the Church allowed married priests. This is our Holy Tradition.
My mother and grandmother were astounded when they read in Catholic newspapers that the Vatican would allow married priests for the Anglicans. In the eyes of Catholics, even this exception from the law is too far reaching.
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« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2011, 10:56:36 PM »

Christ is risen!
I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church.

True. However, I think you missed my point.
no, he hit it head on.

My point was that, if an Anglican priest wants to become Eastern Orthodox, he (or she) has to accept Orthodox doctrine. Right?
Indeed!  But, rather disingenuously, it is said that mandated celibacy is a discipline not a doctrine, and its seems, from what some say, that they expected that married clergy would be a permanent part of the Anglican use, as, supposedly, it is among the Vatican's Eastern rites.

I don't know what you mean by the Vatican's eastern rites. Last time I checked the Vatican was western-rite.  Huh

As far as "its seems, from what some say, that they expected that married clergy would be a permanent part of the Anglican use", I found a thread from a couple months ago that might help. I suggest you start here:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/360782/Peter%20J#Post360782
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