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Author Topic: Vatican sees no future for married clergy in Anglican Ordinariate  (Read 7182 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 30, 2011, 12:10:02 PM »

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Married priests will be only a temporary aberration within the Anglican Ordinariate, says Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican’s secretary of state. Speaking in an interview in the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore  Romano, and in recently published extracts from his forthcoming book, A Great Heart: Homage to John Paul II, Bertone said that although already married Anglican priests will be acceptable under the ordinariate, “the enduring value of celibacy will be reaffirmed, necessitating that for the future, unmarried priests will be the norm in such ordinariates.” Until then, the procedures developed by Pope John Paul II for the reception of already married Anglican clergy will apply.
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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2011, 12:25:00 PM »

Should anyone be really surprised by this?

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2011, 12:29:09 PM »

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and clerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition. I think it would be confusing to still have the Latin rite clergy remain celibate while allowing marriage in the Anglican rite.
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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2011, 12:31:31 PM »

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and clerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition. I think it would be confusing to still have the Latin rite clergy remain celibate while allowing marriage in the Anglican rite.
I agree. Or should I say "hear hear!" :p

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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2011, 12:35:41 PM »

Out of curiosity, what is the protocol for Anglican Churches that want to be received into the Eastern Orthodox Church? Do they basically keep the same liturgy while becoming a part of your Church or do they generally switch to a specifically EO liturgy?
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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2011, 12:53:14 PM »

Out of curiosity, what is the protocol for Anglican Churches that want to be received into the Eastern Orthodox Church? Do they basically keep the same liturgy while becoming a part of your Church or do they generally switch to a specifically EO liturgy?

If they are joining a jurisdiction that has the Western Rite (such as Antiochians), they would be able to use one of the approved Western liturgies; most likely the Mass of St. Tikhon, which is based on the 1928 BCP.

I believe ROCOR has their own English liturgy for Anglicans/Episcopalians, but I don't know much about it.
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« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2011, 01:27:42 PM »

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Married priests will be only a temporary aberration within the Anglican Ordinariate, says Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican’s secretary of state. Speaking in an interview in the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore  Romano, and in recently published extracts from his forthcoming book, A Great Heart: Homage to John Paul II, Bertone said that although already married Anglican priests will be acceptable under the ordinariate, “the enduring value of celibacy will be reaffirmed, necessitating that for the future, unmarried priests will be the norm in such ordinariates.” Until then, the procedures developed by Pope John Paul II for the reception of already married Anglican clergy will apply.


This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

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« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2011, 05:45:30 PM »

Welcome to the real world.

This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

What are you talking about. Petition to whom? To Pope? Every time an Eastern Catholic seminary student wants to marry?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 05:47:03 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2011, 06:24:39 PM »

Christ is risen!
Should anyone be really surprised by this?

No.
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« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2011, 06:27:42 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

 
I think it would be confusing to still have the Latin rite clergy remain celibate while allowing marriage in the Anglican rite.
I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.
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« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2011, 06:29:24 PM »

Christ is risen!
Quote
Married priests will be only a temporary aberration within the Anglican Ordinariate, says Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican’s secretary of state. Speaking in an interview in the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore  Romano, and in recently published extracts from his forthcoming book, A Great Heart: Homage to John Paul II, Bertone said that although already married Anglican priests will be acceptable under the ordinariate, “the enduring value of celibacy will be reaffirmed, necessitating that for the future, unmarried priests will be the norm in such ordinariates.” Until then, the procedures developed by Pope John Paul II for the reception of already married Anglican clergy will apply.


This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.


Yes. we see how well that works.
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« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2011, 06:31:23 PM »

Chrystus zmartwychwstał!
Welcome to the real world.

This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

What are you talking about. Petition to whom? To Pope? Every time an Eastern Catholic seminary student wants to marry?
Yes.  Evidently we have to get word from on high to ordain what God has joined together.
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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2011, 07:15:30 PM »

Welcome to the real world.

This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

What are you talking about. Petition to whom? To Pope? Every time an Eastern Catholic seminary student wants to marry?

You have no idea what it took for Pope Benedict to be able to offer that prelature so that the Anglican rite would become one of the several western rites in the Roman Church without having it be absorbed into the Roman rite.  No idea at all of the great achievement in diplomacy that was on the part of our current Pope.  Nor do you have any idea what it cost him.

So yes.  For the time being, married priests in the Catholic Church will be ordained on a case by case basis, and the tradition will survive and I hope it will thrive.

If you want see how a well oiled hierarchical wheel runs, take a look at the Roman Curia.  If you want to see how a well oiled conciliar wheel runs, take a look at the OCA today.  They operate about as well and as cheerfully.
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2011, 08:19:47 PM »

I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2011, 08:22:19 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)
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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2011, 08:25:32 PM »

I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church. The only one that I know that they do believe in that list is the filioque.
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« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2011, 09:08:01 PM »

The only one that I know that they do believe in that list is the filioque.

Not all of them believe in it at all. And some believe in the filioque but not in the apparent Late Medieval Roman sense. So I think it's often exaggerated how much Anglicans are one in belief with the Romans on the filioque.
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« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2011, 09:40:54 PM »

I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church.

True. However, I think you missed my point.
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« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2011, 09:42:25 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.  I Timothy 4:1-4

Semi-manichaeism, and maybe not semi.
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« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2011, 09:47:26 PM »

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and clerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition. I think it would be confusing to still have the Latin rite clergy remain celibate while allowing marriage in the Anglican rite.
I agree. Or should I say "hear hear!" :p

In Christ,
Andrew

As far as the conclusion goes, I agree that it's not at all surprising; however one of the statements he makes along the way

Quote
Bertone said that although already married Anglican priests will be acceptable under the ordinariate, “the enduring value of celibacy will be reaffirmed, necessitating that for the future, unmarried priests will be the norm in such ordinariates.”

make it sound like those Churches which don't have a mandatory clerical celibacy policy don't affirm the enduring value of celibacy.
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« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2011, 09:50:25 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)

So far as I've ever read, Orthodoxy doesn't. That doesn't prevent ialmisry individual Orthodox from striking out on their own and giving their opinion, of course.
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« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2011, 09:51:47 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.  I Timothy 4:1-4

Semi-manichaeism, and maybe not semi.

Interesting. I always thought those verses refer to the evil Eastern Orthodox, who don't allow married bishops.  Shocked
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« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2011, 09:53:41 PM »

That doesn't prevent individual Orthodox from striking out on their own and giving their opinion, of course.

I thought only western Christians did that.  Grin
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« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2011, 10:11:21 PM »

Welcome to the real world.

This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

What are you talking about. Petition to whom? To Pope? Every time an Eastern Catholic seminary student wants to marry?

You have no idea what it took for Pope Benedict to be able to offer that prelature so that the Anglican rite would become one of the several western rites in the Roman Church without having it be absorbed into the Roman rite.  No idea at all of the great achievement in diplomacy that was on the part of our current Pope.  Nor do you have any idea what it cost him.

So yes.  For the time being, married priests in the Catholic Church will be ordained on a case by case basis, and the tradition will survive and I hope it will thrive.

If you want see how a well oiled hierarchical wheel runs, take a look at the Roman Curia.  If you want to see how a well oiled conciliar wheel runs, take a look at the OCA today.  They operate about as well and as cheerfully.

A great observation indeed....
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« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2011, 10:21:47 PM »

Christ is risen!
I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church.

True. However, I think you missed my point.
no, he hit it head on.  If one swallows Pastor Aeternus as the Western tradition, it comes with a side order of Ineffibilus Deus and the Lyons/Florence combo, with  Pastores Dabo Vobis as desert.

Quote
A testimony given under such circumstances carries more weight than long explanations would do. Neither was it the only occasion on which the historian so expressed himself. "When a priest", Döllinger wrote in a letter to one of his Old Catholic friends in 1876, "can no longer point to personal sacrifice which he makes for the good of his people, then it is all over with him and the cause which he represents. He sinks to the level of men who make a trade of their work [Er rangiert dann mit den Gewerbetreibenden]." (See Michael, Ignaz von Döllinger, ed. 1894, p. 249.)
Nihil Obstat. November 1, 1908. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm
Given the rampent nepoticism and clericalism in the hayday of the Vatican's "celibate" culture (e.g. the Borgias), in the face of such married priests as St. Innocent of Alaska, and indeed St. Peter himself, and the present scandals, this is a rather rich boast.
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« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2011, 10:23:34 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.  I Timothy 4:1-4

Semi-manichaeism, and maybe not semi.

Interesting. I always thought those verses refer to the evil Eastern Orthodox, who don't allow married bishops.  Shocked
we have one in Chicago right now. And the first one to take up his see in North America, the first primate of North America and the predecessor of Met. Jonah was one as well.
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« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2011, 10:45:25 PM »

Christ is risen!
I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church.

True. However, I think you missed my point.
no, he hit it head on.

My point was that, if an Anglican priest wants to become Eastern Orthodox, he (or she) has to accept Orthodox doctrine. Right?
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« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2011, 10:46:27 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)

So far as I've ever read, Orthodoxy doesn't. That doesn't prevent ialmisry individual Orthodox from striking out on their own and giving their opinion, of course.
Oh? And what have you read?

Quote
....As soon as it was introduced into the Churches of the West it brought forth disgraceful fruits, bringing with it, little by little, other novelties, for the most part contrary to the express commands of our Savior in the Gospel—commands which till its entrance into the Churches were closely observed. Among these novelties may be numbered sprinkling instead of baptism, denial of the divine Cup to the Laity, elevation of one and the same bread broken, the use of wafers, unleavened instead of real bread, the disuse of the Benediction in the Liturgies, even of the sacred Invocation of the All-holy and Consecrating Spirit, the abandonment of the old Apostolic Mysteries of the Church, such as not anointing baptized infants, or their not receiving the Eucharist, the exclusion of married men from the Priesthood, the infallibility of the Pope and his claim as Vicar of Christ, and the like. Thus it was that the interpolation led to the setting aside of the old Apostolic pattern of well nigh all the Mysteries and all doctrine, a pattern which the ancient, holy, and orthodox Church of Rome kept, when she was the most honored part of the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...

+ ANTHIMOS, by the Mercy of God, Archbishop of Constantinople, new Rome, and Ecumenical Patriarch, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ HIEROTHEUS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Alexandria and of all Egypt, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ METHODIOS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of the great City of God, Antioch, and of all Anatolia, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ CYRIL, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Jerusalem and of all Palestine, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

 

The Holy Synod in Constantinople:

+ PAISIUS OF CAESAREA

+ ANTHIMUS OF EPHESUS

+ DIONYSIUS OF HERACLEA

+ JOACHIM OF CYZICUS

+ DIONYSIUS OF NICODEMIA

+ HIEROTHEUS OF CHALCEDON

+ NEOPHYTUS OF DERCI

+ GERASIMUS OF ADRIANOPLE

+ CYRIL OF NEOCAESAREA

+ THEOCLETUS OF BEREA

+ MELETIUS OF PISIDIA

+ ATHANASIUS OF SMYRNA

+ DIONYSIUS OF MELENICUS

+ PAISIUS OF SOPHIA

+ DANIEL OF LEMNOS

+ PANTELEIMON OF DEYINOPOLIS

+ JOSEPH OF ERSECIUM

+ ANTHIMUS OF BODENI

 

The Holy Synod in Antioch:

+ ZACHARIAS OF ARCADIA

+ METHODIOS OF EMESA

+ JOANNICIUS OF TRIPOLIS

+ ARTEMIUS OF LAODICEA

 

The Holy Synod in Jerusalem:

+ MELETIUS OF PETRA

+ DIONYSIUS OF BETHLEHEM

+ PHILEMON OF GAZA

+ SAMUEL OF NEAPOLIS

+ THADDEUS OF SEBASTE

+ JOANNICIUS OF PHILADELPHIA

+ HIEROTHEUS OF TABOR
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2011, 10:47:39 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; for then it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.  I Timothy 4:1-4

Semi-manichaeism, and maybe not semi.

Interesting. I always thought those verses refer to the evil Eastern Orthodox, who don't allow married bishops.  Shocked
we have one in Chicago right now. And the first one to take up his see in North America, the first primate of North America and the predecessor of Met. Jonah was one as well.

Ah ... I guess my attempt at humor kind of flopped, then.
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« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2011, 10:49:07 PM »

Christ is risen!
I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church.

True. However, I think you missed my point.
no, he hit it head on.

My point was that, if an Anglican priest wants to become Eastern Orthodox, he (or she) has to accept Orthodox doctrine. Right?
Indeed!  But, rather disingenuously, it is said that mandated celibacy is a discipline not a doctrine, and its seems, from what some say, that they expected that married clergy would be a permanent part of the Anglican use, as, supposedly, it is among the Vatican's Eastern rites.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2011, 10:52:40 PM »

Christ is risen!
Welcome to the real world.

This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

What are you talking about. Petition to whom? To Pope? Every time an Eastern Catholic seminary student wants to marry?

You have no idea what it took for Pope Benedict to be able to offer that prelature so that the Anglican rite would become one of the several western rites in the Roman Church without having it be absorbed into the Roman rite.  No idea at all of the great achievement in diplomacy that was on the part of our current Pope.  Nor do you have any idea what it cost him.
So much fior the much vaunted claims of Pastor Aeternus.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2011, 10:53:16 PM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)

So far as I've ever read, Orthodoxy doesn't. That doesn't prevent ialmisry individual Orthodox from striking out on their own and giving their opinion, of course.
Oh? And what have you read?

Quote
....As soon as it was introduced into the Churches of the West it brought forth disgraceful fruits, bringing with it, little by little, other novelties, for the most part contrary to the express commands of our Savior in the Gospel—commands which till its entrance into the Churches were closely observed. Among these novelties may be numbered sprinkling instead of baptism, denial of the divine Cup to the Laity, elevation of one and the same bread broken, the use of wafers, unleavened instead of real bread, the disuse of the Benediction in the Liturgies, even of the sacred Invocation of the All-holy and Consecrating Spirit, the abandonment of the old Apostolic Mysteries of the Church, such as not anointing baptized infants, or their not receiving the Eucharist, the exclusion of married men from the Priesthood, the infallibility of the Pope and his claim as Vicar of Christ, and the like. Thus it was that the interpolation led to the setting aside of the old Apostolic pattern of well nigh all the Mysteries and all doctrine, a pattern which the ancient, holy, and orthodox Church of Rome kept, when she was the most honored part of the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...

+ ANTHIMOS, by the Mercy of God, Archbishop of Constantinople, new Rome, and Ecumenical Patriarch, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ HIEROTHEUS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Alexandria and of all Egypt, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ METHODIOS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of the great City of God, Antioch, and of all Anatolia, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ CYRIL, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Jerusalem and of all Palestine, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

 

The Holy Synod in Constantinople:

+ PAISIUS OF CAESAREA

+ ANTHIMUS OF EPHESUS

+ DIONYSIUS OF HERACLEA

+ JOACHIM OF CYZICUS

+ DIONYSIUS OF NICODEMIA

+ HIEROTHEUS OF CHALCEDON

+ NEOPHYTUS OF DERCI

+ GERASIMUS OF ADRIANOPLE

+ CYRIL OF NEOCAESAREA

+ THEOCLETUS OF BEREA

+ MELETIUS OF PISIDIA

+ ATHANASIUS OF SMYRNA

+ DIONYSIUS OF MELENICUS

+ PAISIUS OF SOPHIA

+ DANIEL OF LEMNOS

+ PANTELEIMON OF DEYINOPOLIS

+ JOSEPH OF ERSECIUM

+ ANTHIMUS OF BODENI

 

The Holy Synod in Antioch:

+ ZACHARIAS OF ARCADIA

+ METHODIOS OF EMESA

+ JOANNICIUS OF TRIPOLIS

+ ARTEMIUS OF LAODICEA

 

The Holy Synod in Jerusalem:

+ MELETIUS OF PETRA

+ DIONYSIUS OF BETHLEHEM

+ PHILEMON OF GAZA

+ SAMUEL OF NEAPOLIS

+ THADDEUS OF SEBASTE

+ JOANNICIUS OF PHILADELPHIA

+ HIEROTHEUS OF TABOR
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx

I have no doubt that "the exclusion of married men from the Priesthood" is problematic from the EO point of view. I believe Asteriktos was just telling me that it isn't considered a heresy.
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« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2011, 10:55:58 PM »

Christ is risen!
I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church.

True. However, I think you missed my point.
no, he hit it head on.

My point was that, if an Anglican priest wants to become Eastern Orthodox, he (or she) has to accept Orthodox doctrine. Right?
Indeed!  But, rather disingenuously, it is said that mandated celibacy is a discipline not a doctrine, and its seems, from what some say, that they expected that married clergy would be a permanent part of the Anglican use, as, supposedly, it is among the Vatican's Eastern rites.

I can neither confirm nor deny that expectation. (Well, not tonight anyhow.)
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« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2011, 12:40:33 AM »

Welcome to the real world.

This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

What are you talking about. Petition to whom? To Pope? Every time an Eastern Catholic seminary student wants to marry?

You have no idea what it took for Pope Benedict to be able to offer that prelature so that the Anglican rite would become one of the several western rites in the Roman Church without having it be absorbed into the Roman rite.  No idea at all of the great achievement in diplomacy that was on the part of our current Pope.  Nor do you have any idea what it cost him.

So yes.  For the time being, married priests in the Catholic Church will be ordained on a case by case basis, and the tradition will survive and I hope it will thrive.

If you want see how a well oiled hierarchical wheel runs, take a look at the Roman Curia.  If you want to see how a well oiled conciliar wheel runs, take a look at the OCA today.  They operate about as well and as cheerfully.

What exactly did He have to do in order to get this pastoral provision?  Do you know and, if so how did you find out anyway?
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-- Gustave Flaubert
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« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2011, 12:46:20 AM »

Do Western rite Orthodox priest have to obey the same type of prohibitions against relations with their wives that exist in the rest of Orthodoxy?
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-- Gustave Flaubert
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« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2011, 12:49:55 AM »

Christ is risen!
Do Western rite Orthodox priest have to obey the same type of prohibitions against relations with their wives that exist in the rest of Orthodoxy?
LOL. Since lEO aymen do as well, I'd say yes.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 12:50:21 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2011, 12:51:54 AM »

Christ is risen!
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The Anglican rite is a Western rite, and mandatedclerical celibacy is a part of Western tradition.
Fixed that for you.

Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

I don't believe I've ever heard that the Orthodox consider mandatory clerical celibacy to be a heresy. (How could it be?)

So far as I've ever read, Orthodoxy doesn't. That doesn't prevent ialmisry individual Orthodox from striking out on their own and giving their opinion, of course.
Oh? And what have you read?

Quote
....As soon as it was introduced into the Churches of the West it brought forth disgraceful fruits, bringing with it, little by little, other novelties, for the most part contrary to the express commands of our Savior in the Gospel—commands which till its entrance into the Churches were closely observed. Among these novelties may be numbered sprinkling instead of baptism, denial of the divine Cup to the Laity, elevation of one and the same bread broken, the use of wafers, unleavened instead of real bread, the disuse of the Benediction in the Liturgies, even of the sacred Invocation of the All-holy and Consecrating Spirit, the abandonment of the old Apostolic Mysteries of the Church, such as not anointing baptized infants, or their not receiving the Eucharist, the exclusion of married men from the Priesthood, the infallibility of the Pope and his claim as Vicar of Christ, and the like. Thus it was that the interpolation led to the setting aside of the old Apostolic pattern of well nigh all the Mysteries and all doctrine, a pattern which the ancient, holy, and orthodox Church of Rome kept, when she was the most honored part of the Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...

+ ANTHIMOS, by the Mercy of God, Archbishop of Constantinople, new Rome, and Ecumenical Patriarch, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ HIEROTHEUS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Alexandria and of all Egypt, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ METHODIOS, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of the great City of God, Antioch, and of all Anatolia, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

+ CYRIL, by the Mercy of God, Patriarch of Jerusalem and of all Palestine, a beloved brother in Christ our God, and suppliant.

 

The Holy Synod in Constantinople:

+ PAISIUS OF CAESAREA

+ ANTHIMUS OF EPHESUS

+ DIONYSIUS OF HERACLEA

+ JOACHIM OF CYZICUS

+ DIONYSIUS OF NICODEMIA

+ HIEROTHEUS OF CHALCEDON

+ NEOPHYTUS OF DERCI

+ GERASIMUS OF ADRIANOPLE

+ CYRIL OF NEOCAESAREA

+ THEOCLETUS OF BEREA

+ MELETIUS OF PISIDIA

+ ATHANASIUS OF SMYRNA

+ DIONYSIUS OF MELENICUS

+ PAISIUS OF SOPHIA

+ DANIEL OF LEMNOS

+ PANTELEIMON OF DEYINOPOLIS

+ JOSEPH OF ERSECIUM

+ ANTHIMUS OF BODENI

 

The Holy Synod in Antioch:

+ ZACHARIAS OF ARCADIA

+ METHODIOS OF EMESA

+ JOANNICIUS OF TRIPOLIS

+ ARTEMIUS OF LAODICEA

 

The Holy Synod in Jerusalem:

+ MELETIUS OF PETRA

+ DIONYSIUS OF BETHLEHEM

+ PHILEMON OF GAZA

+ SAMUEL OF NEAPOLIS

+ THADDEUS OF SEBASTE

+ JOANNICIUS OF PHILADELPHIA

+ HIEROTHEUS OF TABOR
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx

I have no doubt that "the exclusion of married men from the Priesthood" is problematic from the EO point of view. I believe Asteriktos was just telling me that it isn't considered a heresy.
Since it is listed right before the Vatican's claims of infallibilty, I think Asteriktos is downplaying things.  In fact, since I have seen much on this, I know he is.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 12:52:48 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2011, 12:52:04 AM »

a couple can't sleep together before going to the DL (Or is that just for communing)?

You learn something new every day I guess.
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« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2011, 07:36:24 AM »


Yes, one of the first steps it took to detour from the Way, and trod down the broad road of heresy.

Then which road are your mandated celibate bishops leading your church down? Start consecrated married priests as bishops or your attack lacks foundation. I'll be waiting...
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« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2011, 07:39:03 AM »

I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church. The only one that I know that they do believe in that list is the filioque.
I think you are mistaken, but even if you are right, isn't the filioque alone a deal-breaker?
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« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2011, 09:36:16 AM »

You have no idea what it took for Pope Benedict to be able to offer that prelature so that the Anglican rite would become one of the several western rites in the Roman Church without having it be absorbed into the Roman rite.

What do you mean by that? The Anglican use of the Roman rite exists in the RCC since the 1980s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Divine_Worship) so the current developments are no revolution at all.

No idea at all of the great achievement in diplomacy that was on the part of our current Pope.  Nor do you have any idea what it cost him.

What exactly are you talking about? Metropolitans Philip (AOCA) and Hilarion (ROCOR) did something very similar and I don't think they needed to employ much diplomacy or bear any significant costs. Does it mean that they have greater power in their Churches then Pope Benedict in his?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 09:38:40 AM by Michał » Logged
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« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2011, 10:57:47 AM »

Christ is risen!
Welcome to the real world.

This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

What are you talking about. Petition to whom? To Pope? Every time an Eastern Catholic seminary student wants to marry?

You have no idea what it took for Pope Benedict to be able to offer that prelature so that the Anglican rite would become one of the several western rites in the Roman Church without having it be absorbed into the Roman rite.  No idea at all of the great achievement in diplomacy that was on the part of our current Pope.  Nor do you have any idea what it cost him.
So much fior the much vaunted claims of Pastor Aeternus.

They are about as efficacious as those vaulted claims for consiliarism, sobornost and synergy that really only pertain in the third heaven or higher.... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2011, 12:28:24 PM »

a couple can't sleep together before going to the DL (Or is that just for communing)?

You learn something new every day I guess.

Communing. It's part of the Eucharistic fast. As well as other fasting days (Wed, Fri, Lent, etc)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 12:30:01 PM by bogdan » Logged
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« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2011, 06:00:36 PM »

What's shocking in this all?
Nothing. Normal Catholics would be confounded and angry if the Church allowed married priests. This is our Holy Tradition.
My mother and grandmother were astounded when they read in Catholic newspapers that the Vatican would allow married priests for the Anglicans. In the eyes of Catholics, even this exception from the law is too far reaching.
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« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2011, 10:56:36 PM »

Christ is risen!
I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church.

True. However, I think you missed my point.
no, he hit it head on.

My point was that, if an Anglican priest wants to become Eastern Orthodox, he (or she) has to accept Orthodox doctrine. Right?
Indeed!  But, rather disingenuously, it is said that mandated celibacy is a discipline not a doctrine, and its seems, from what some say, that they expected that married clergy would be a permanent part of the Anglican use, as, supposedly, it is among the Vatican's Eastern rites.

I don't know what you mean by the Vatican's eastern rites. Last time I checked the Vatican was western-rite.  Huh

As far as "its seems, from what some say, that they expected that married clergy would be a permanent part of the Anglican use", I found a thread from a couple months ago that might help. I suggest you start here:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/360782/Peter%20J#Post360782
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« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2011, 11:13:33 PM »

Chrystus zmartwychwstał!
What's shocking in this all?
Nothing. Normal Catholics would be confounded and angry if the Church allowed married priests. This is our Holy Tradition.
My mother and grandmother were astounded when they read in Catholic newspapers that the Vatican would allow married priests for the Anglicans. In the eyes of Catholics, even this exception from the law is too far reaching.
Just showing how parochial and heretical the Vatican is, that its followers, confroted by Apostolic practice, would be astounded.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2011, 11:17:54 PM »

Christ is risen!
Christ is risen!
I agree. Which is why they should become Western Rite Orthodox. The Orthodox don't get confused by institutions instituted by God, like marriage.

Interesting ... so if an Anglican minister approached the Orthodox Church and said "I believe in the Immaculate Conception, the filioque, Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility, but I want to become Orthodox because you guys allow married clergy" ... that would be fine?

Usually Anglicans do not hold these beliefs that is why there are many Anglicans surprised that there are those that would join the Latin Church.

True. However, I think you missed my point.
no, he hit it head on.

My point was that, if an Anglican priest wants to become Eastern Orthodox, he (or she) has to accept Orthodox doctrine. Right?
Indeed!  But, rather disingenuously, it is said that mandated celibacy is a discipline not a doctrine, and its seems, from what some say, that they expected that married clergy would be a permanent part of the Anglican use, as, supposedly, it is among the Vatican's Eastern rites.

I don't know what you mean by the Vatican's eastern rites. Last time I checked the Vatican was western-rite.  Huh
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/orientchurch/index.htm

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_jp-ii_apc_19901018_index-codex-can-eccl-orient_lt.html

As far as "its seems, from what some say, that they expected that married clergy would be a permanent part of the Anglican use", I found a thread from a couple months ago that might help. I suggest you start here:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/360782/Peter%20J#Post360782
Why would I start on a "Byzantine" forum to find out what Western Anglicans are thining?
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« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2011, 11:38:14 PM »

Christos Voskrese!
Christ is risen!
Welcome to the real world.

This must be said, for a number of reasons,  but the reality will be that the Anglicans will petition to ordain married men on a case by case basis...just as in the eastern Churches.

What are you talking about. Petition to whom? To Pope? Every time an Eastern Catholic seminary student wants to marry?

You have no idea what it took for Pope Benedict to be able to offer that prelature so that the Anglican rite would become one of the several western rites in the Roman Church without having it be absorbed into the Roman rite.  No idea at all of the great achievement in diplomacy that was on the part of our current Pope.  Nor do you have any idea what it cost him.
So much fior the much vaunted claims of Pastor Aeternus.

They are about as efficacious as those vaulted claims for consiliarism, sobornost and synergy that really only pertain in the third heaven or higher.... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
Well good, then you won't feel obligated to foist your useless supreme pontiff on us, as we all know that consilarity has worked at least 7 times, and we know that ex cathedra Vaticana have never worked once.
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« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2011, 01:19:37 AM »

What's shocking in this all?
Nothing. Normal Catholics would be confounded and angry if the Church allowed married priests. This is our Holy Tradition.
My mother and grandmother were astounded when they read in Catholic newspapers that the Vatican would allow married priests for the Anglicans. In the eyes of Catholics, even this exception from the law is too far reaching.

I don't see what is so distressing about married priest.  There were many married priest in the west before the 11 century.

Maybe a married clergy is shocking to you in Poland, but here in the USA, most RC's are for it.
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« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2011, 01:25:25 AM »

Chrystus zmartwychwstał!
What's shocking in this all?
Nothing. Normal Catholics would be confounded and angry if the Church allowed married priests. This is our Holy Tradition.
My mother and grandmother were astounded when they read in Catholic newspapers that the Vatican would allow married priests for the Anglicans. In the eyes of Catholics, even this exception from the law is too far reaching.
Just showing how parochial and heretical the Vatican is, that its followers, confroted by Apostolic practice, would be astounded.

From the impression I get from my Catholic relatives, I think the reaction of most of them would be "It's about time!" When it comes to married priests, contraception, etc., most just don't care what the "traditional" position of Catholicism is.
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« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2011, 01:25:48 AM »

I thing I would like to know is, despite all these attempts by both Orthodoxy and the RCC to attract Anglicans by special provisions and liturgies, how many Anglicans actually end up leaving their own Communion and going over to the RC/OC's?

I somehow feel that the real numbers of those who leave the Anglican Communion are not as significant as we would like to believe.  Anglicans, in the west anyway are only a small fraction of Christians when compared to the RCC, OC, and larger evangelical groups.  Most are probably more liberal anyway and see no problem with the direction their respective Communion is heading in (Except for Africa).  So is all this fuss in trying to appease some Conservative Anglican groups really worth the big deal that some make it out to be?
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« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2011, 09:45:39 AM »


Oh, I see. So "the Vatican's eastern rites" means the Congregation for the Oriental Churches?

Always nice to learn something new. Grin
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« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2011, 09:50:36 AM »

What's shocking in this all?
Nothing. Normal Catholics would be confounded and angry if the Church allowed married priests. This is our Holy Tradition.
My mother and grandmother were astounded when they read in Catholic newspapers that the Vatican would allow married priests for the Anglicans. In the eyes of Catholics, even this exception from the law is too far reaching.

I don't see what is so distressing about married priest.  There were many married priest in the west before the 11 century.

Maybe a married clergy is shocking to you in Poland, but here in the USA, most RC's are for it.

Hi Robb. Technically you're right, most RCs are in favor of married clergy. But unfortunately, the number of RCs who are in favor of female priests is only slightly lower, so ...  Sad
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« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2011, 10:21:05 AM »

Normal Catholics would be confounded and angry if the Church allowed married priests.

By "normal Catholics" you mean the ignorant ones?

In the eyes of Catholics, even this exception from the law is too far reaching.

All it means is that those Catholics you are referring to have insufficient knowledge of the subject.
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« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2011, 10:28:40 AM »

Chrystus zmartwychwstał!
What's shocking in this all?
Nothing. Normal Catholics would be confounded and angry if the Church allowed married priests. This is our Holy Tradition.
My mother and grandmother were astounded when they read in Catholic newspapers that the Vatican would allow married priests for the Anglicans. In the eyes of Catholics, even this exception from the law is too far reaching.
Just showing how parochial and heretical the Vatican is, that its followers, confroted by Apostolic practice, would be astounded.

From the impression I get from my Catholic relatives, I think the reaction of most of them would be "It's about time!" When it comes to married priests, contraception, etc., most just don't care what the "traditional" position of Catholicism is.
This just shows how far people in the West have gone from Catholicism. Perhaps, this is the reason why churches are closing in the West. I don't want married priests in my church. There are plenty of sects where you can play "Eucharist" and be married.
Call me parochial, that's the Catholicism I know. I could no longer trust a church, in which the priests' sons murdered their neighbours.
Heretical, I'm sorry but what has the Patriarch of Constantinople called the Romanians and Russians?
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« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2011, 10:29:17 AM »

I don't want married priests in my church. There are plenty of sects where you can play "Eucharist" and be married.

You already have.
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« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2011, 11:05:22 AM »

I don't want married priests in my church. There are plenty of sects where you can play "Eucharist" and be married.

You already have.

Hush! Don't make synLeszka "confounded and angry"! Cheesy
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« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2011, 11:15:56 AM »

Chrystus zmartwychwstał!
What's shocking in this all?
Nothing. Normal Catholics would be confounded and angry if the Church allowed married priests. This is our Holy Tradition.
My mother and grandmother were astounded when they read in Catholic newspapers that the Vatican would allow married priests for the Anglicans. In the eyes of Catholics, even this exception from the law is too far reaching.
Just showing how parochial and heretical the Vatican is, that its followers, confroted by Apostolic practice, would be astounded.

From the impression I get from my Catholic relatives, I think the reaction of most of them would be "It's about time!" When it comes to married priests, contraception, etc., most just don't care what the "traditional" position of Catholicism is.
This just shows how far people in the West have gone from Catholicism. Perhaps, this is the reason why churches are closing in the West. I don't want married priests in my church. There are plenty of sects where you can play "Eucharist" and be married.
Call me parochial, that's the Catholicism I know. I could no longer trust a church, in which the priests' sons murdered their neighbours.
Heretical, I'm sorry but what has the Patriarch of Constantinople called the Romanians and Russians?

Good thing you weren't around during the era of the Borgia popes! Cesare Borgia did in more than a few of his dad's, the pope's, enemies, while he was a 'cardinal.'

Seriously, if I recall you once said that one of your grandfathers was Galician. Was he not then a Greek Catholic with a history of a married clergy? Were they 'playing' Eucharist?

There are many Eastern Catholics online who regard themselves as faithful, 'normal Catholics' with their history of married clergy. Archbishop Ireland didn't regard Father Toth and his congregation as 'normal Catholics' either and you know where that ended up.

I think you owe your Eastern Catholic co-religionists, as well as the Orthodox, an apology for the 'playing Eucharist' crack.

By the way, the local Byzantine Catholic parish down the street is receiving a married priest with a family next month as their pastor. Talk about irony.
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« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2011, 12:29:17 PM »

Chrystus zmartwychwstał!
What's shocking in this all?
Nothing. Normal Catholics would be confounded and angry if the Church allowed married priests. This is our Holy Tradition.
My mother and grandmother were astounded when they read in Catholic newspapers that the Vatican would allow married priests for the Anglicans. In the eyes of Catholics, even this exception from the law is too far reaching.
Just showing how parochial and heretical the Vatican is, that its followers, confroted by Apostolic practice, would be astounded.

From the impression I get from my Catholic relatives, I think the reaction of most of them would be "It's about time!" When it comes to married priests, contraception, etc., most just don't care what the "traditional" position of Catholicism is.
This just shows how far people in the West have gone from Catholicism. Perhaps, this is the reason why churches are closing in the West. I don't want married priests in my church. There are plenty of sects where you can play "Eucharist" and be married.
Call me parochial, that's the Catholicism I know. I could no longer trust a church, in which the priests' sons murdered their neighbours.

How about your ecclesiastical community, in which priests murdered their neighbors?
Heretical, I'm sorry but what has the Patriarch of Constantinople called the Romanians and Russians?
Romanians and Russians, as far as I know.
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« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2011, 12:31:37 PM »


Oh, I see. So "the Vatican's eastern rites" means the Congregation for the Oriental Churches?

Always nice to learn something new. Grin
The Congregation for the Oriental Churches is made up of Latin bishops, and the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Churches is in Latin.
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« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2011, 12:57:48 PM »


Oh, I see. So "the Vatican's eastern rites" means the Congregation for the Oriental Churches?

Always nice to learn something new. Grin
The Congregation for the Oriental Churches is made up of Latin bishops, and the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Churches is in Latin.

Partial truth is good...I guess.
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« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2011, 01:01:22 PM »

http://ncronline.org/news/women/pope-removes-bishop-who-expressed-openness-ordaining-women

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=10172
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« Reply #62 on: May 02, 2011, 02:06:30 PM »


Oh, I see. So "the Vatican's eastern rites" means the Congregation for the Oriental Churches?

Always nice to learn something new. Grin
The Congregation for the Oriental Churches is made up of Latin bishops, and the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Churches is in Latin.

I know a few Eastern Catholics who view the congregation in the same light that Native American peoples view the Bureau of Indian Affairs!  laugh
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« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2011, 02:17:34 PM »

I know a few Eastern Catholics who view the congregation in the same light that Native American peoples view the Bureau of Indian Affairs!  laugh

Having encountered the BIA up close, I'd say it's a fair comparison...Their revulsion for native control over native affairs and all that....
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« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2011, 04:13:40 PM »

What's shocking in this all?
Nothing. Normal Catholics would be confounded and angry if the Church allowed married priests. This is our Holy Tradition.
My mother and grandmother were astounded when they read in Catholic newspapers that the Vatican would allow married priests for the Anglicans. In the eyes of Catholics, even this exception from the law is too far reaching.

I don't see what is so distressing about married priest.  There were many married priest in the west before the 11 century.

Maybe a married clergy is shocking to you in Poland, but here in the USA, most RC's are for it.

Hi Robb. Technically you're right, most RCs are in favor of married clergy. But unfortunately, the number of RCs who are in favor of female priests is only slightly lower, so ...  Sad

I know that, but don't lump the two together.  A celibate clergy is a discipline, while it would be heretical to ordain women as priest.  Just because the majority of Catholics favor both, that does not mean that both opinions are wrong.
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« Reply #65 on: May 02, 2011, 04:25:58 PM »

I know that, but don't lump the two together.  A celibate clergy is a discipline, while it would be heretical to ordain women as priest.  Just because the majority of Catholics favor both, that does not mean that both opinions are wrong.

Good point. Many traditionalist RCs seems to miss it, tough.
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« Reply #66 on: May 02, 2011, 04:31:47 PM »

What's shocking in this all?
Nothing. Normal Catholics would be confounded and angry if the Church allowed married priests. This is our Holy Tradition.
My mother and grandmother were astounded when they read in Catholic newspapers that the Vatican would allow married priests for the Anglicans. In the eyes of Catholics, even this exception from the law is too far reaching.

I don't see what is so distressing about married priest.  There were many married priest in the west before the 11 century.

Maybe a married clergy is shocking to you in Poland, but here in the USA, most RC's are for it.

Hi Robb. Technically you're right, most RCs are in favor of married clergy. But unfortunately, the number of RCs who are in favor of female priests is only slightly lower, so ...  Sad

I know that, but don't lump the two together.  A celibate clergy is a discipline, while it would be heretical to ordain women as priest.  Just because the majority of Catholics favor both, that does not mean that both opinions are wrong.

I don't want to lump them together by any means. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be overly optimistic about the typical Catholic.
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« Reply #67 on: May 02, 2011, 05:42:09 PM »

What's shocking in this all?
Nothing. Normal Catholics would be confounded and angry if the Church allowed married priests. This is our Holy Tradition.
My mother and grandmother were astounded when they read in Catholic newspapers that the Vatican would allow married priests for the Anglicans. In the eyes of Catholics, even this exception from the law is too far reaching.

I don't see what is so distressing about married priest.  There were many married priest in the west before the 11 century.

Maybe a married clergy is shocking to you in Poland, but here in the USA, most RC's are for it.

Hi Robb. Technically you're right, most RCs are in favor of married clergy. But unfortunately, the number of RCs who are in favor of female priests is only slightly lower, so ...  Sad

I know that, but don't lump the two together.  A celibate clergy is a discipline, while it would be heretical to ordain women as priest.  Just because the majority of Catholics favor both, that does not mean that both opinions are wrong.

I don't want to lump them together by any means. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be overly optimistic about the typical Catholic.

We could be more optimistic about the "typical Catholic" if the typical bishop and priest bothered educating their flock rather than assuming they're too stupid to get it.  Then again maybe many of the clergy prefer their flocks to be uneducated, it makes it easier to control and/or ignore them depending on the person's inclination.
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« Reply #68 on: May 02, 2011, 06:28:13 PM »

We could be more optimistic about the "typical Catholic" if the typical bishop and priest bothered educating their flock rather than assuming they're too stupid to get it.  Then again maybe many of the clergy prefer their flocks to be uneducated, it makes it easier to control and/or ignore them depending on the person's inclination.

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« Reply #69 on: May 03, 2011, 12:55:26 PM »

I don't want to lump them together by any means. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be overly optimistic about the typical Catholic.
The problem with the "typical Catholic" is that the typical Catholic is often a cradle Catholic, and many times (but not always) they tend to be very lukewarm when it comes to the faith. I do know some lifelong Catholics who are rather zealous about their faith (especially the little old ladies that never miss Mass and go to confession every week), but for the most part it seems that the adult converts are the most passionate about Catholicism.
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« Reply #70 on: May 03, 2011, 12:58:36 PM »


Oh, I see. So "the Vatican's eastern rites" means the Congregation for the Oriental Churches?

Always nice to learn something new. Grin
The Congregation for the Oriental Churches is made up of Latin bishops, and the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Churches is in Latin.

Partial truth is good...I guess.
It doesn't matter with Izzy. If we Catholics don't use the restroom exactly the way Izzy thinks we should, he starts crying, "heresy! heresy!"
Once a Lutheran, always a Lutheran I suppose.
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« Reply #71 on: May 03, 2011, 01:41:42 PM »


Oh, I see. So "the Vatican's eastern rites" means the Congregation for the Oriental Churches?

Always nice to learn something new. Grin
The Congregation for the Oriental Churches is made up of Latin bishops, and the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Churches is in Latin.

Partial truth is good...I guess.
It doesn't matter with Izzy. If we Catholics don't use the restroom exactly the way Izzy thinks we should, he starts crying, "heresy! heresy!"
Once a Lutheran, always a Lutheran I suppose.
I suppose that, Papist, those grasping after straws, will eventually turn to chaff, as here.  Tell us, papist, pray tell, of this alleged Lutheran heresy you claim.

I don't care whatever you are doing with yourself in the bathroom.

Speaking of Luther though, and bathrooms, the Borgias had a demonstration of a lovely tradition of the time before the pope was installed:
Quote
The Roman Church, according to legend, stipulated that anyone elected Pope should prove that his genitalia were intact. To this end a special chair was fashioned that had a horseshoe-shaped seat. The Pope to be would sit on the seat and the cardinals would pass by, checking the papal procession and proclaiming: ‘testiculos habet et bene pendentes’. A loose translation being: ‘testicles he has and well-hung ones’.

It is unclear when the custom first begun. The reason for its initiation is that according to the Law of Moses eunuchs could not enter into the sanctuary. Leviticus considered castrated animals and humans as unworthy of the sacrifice, both in a literal and a religious sense.
http://www.newint.org/features/1993/06/05/curious/

The chair is called "sedia stercoraria," "the dung chair"  Interesting, the chair of St. Peter?
here they hebemus papam by the ......

A shame Vatican II did away with all these quaint customs of a papal coronation.
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« Reply #72 on: May 03, 2011, 01:45:54 PM »


Oh, I see. So "the Vatican's eastern rites" means the Congregation for the Oriental Churches?

Always nice to learn something new. Grin
The Congregation for the Oriental Churches is made up of Latin bishops, and the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Churches is in Latin.

Partial truth is good...I guess.
It doesn't matter with Izzy. If we Catholics don't use the restroom exactly the way Izzy thinks we should, he starts crying, "heresy! heresy!"
Once a Lutheran, always a Lutheran I suppose.
I suppose that, Papist, those grasping after straws, will eventually turn to chaff, as here.  Tell us, papist, pray tell, of this alleged Lutheran heresy you claim.

I don't care whatever you are doing with yourself in the bathroom.

Speaking of Luther though, and bathrooms, the Borgias had a demonstration of a lovely tradition of the time before the pope was installed:
Quote
The Roman Church, according to legend, stipulated that anyone elected Pope should prove that his genitalia were intact. To this end a special chair was fashioned that had a horseshoe-shaped seat. The Pope to be would sit on the seat and the cardinals would pass by, checking the papal procession and proclaiming: ‘testiculos habet et bene pendentes’. A loose translation being: ‘testicles he has and well-hung ones’.

It is unclear when the custom first begun. The reason for its initiation is that according to the Law of Moses eunuchs could not enter into the sanctuary. Leviticus considered castrated animals and humans as unworthy of the sacrifice, both in a literal and a religious sense.
http://www.newint.org/features/1993/06/05/curious/

The chair is called "sedia stercoraria," "the dung chair"  Interesting, the chair of St. Peter?
here they hebemus papam by the ......

A shame Vatican II did away with all these quaint customs of a papal coronation.
See what I mean? He is more concerned with "dung chairs" than Christian truth.
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« Reply #73 on: May 03, 2011, 01:56:32 PM »


Oh, I see. So "the Vatican's eastern rites" means the Congregation for the Oriental Churches?

Always nice to learn something new. Grin
The Congregation for the Oriental Churches is made up of Latin bishops, and the Code of Canon Law for the Eastern Churches is in Latin.

Partial truth is good...I guess.
It doesn't matter with Izzy. If we Catholics don't use the restroom exactly the way Izzy thinks we should, he starts crying, "heresy! heresy!"
Once a Lutheran, always a Lutheran I suppose.
I suppose that, Papist, those grasping after straws, will eventually turn to chaff, as here.  Tell us, papist, pray tell, of this alleged Lutheran heresy you claim.

I don't care whatever you are doing with yourself in the bathroom.

Speaking of Luther though, and bathrooms, the Borgias had a demonstration of a lovely tradition of the time before the pope was installed:
Quote
The Roman Church, according to legend, stipulated that anyone elected Pope should prove that his genitalia were intact. To this end a special chair was fashioned that had a horseshoe-shaped seat. The Pope to be would sit on the seat and the cardinals would pass by, checking the papal procession and proclaiming: ‘testiculos habet et bene pendentes’. A loose translation being: ‘testicles he has and well-hung ones’.

It is unclear when the custom first begun. The reason for its initiation is that according to the Law of Moses eunuchs could not enter into the sanctuary. Leviticus considered castrated animals and humans as unworthy of the sacrifice, both in a literal and a religious sense.
http://www.newint.org/features/1993/06/05/curious/

The chair is called "sedia stercoraria," "the dung chair"  Interesting, the chair of St. Peter?
here they hebemus papam by the ......

A shame Vatican II did away with all these quaint customs of a papal coronation.
See what I mean? He is more concerned with "dung chairs" than Christian truth.
LOL. I don't look for the Christian truth from ecclesiastical communities concerned with "dung chairs" and unused testicles.
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« Reply #74 on: May 03, 2011, 02:07:05 PM »

LOL. I don't look for the Christian truth from ecclesiastical communities concerned with "dung chairs" and unused testicles.
Once again... more concerned with our bathroom habbits. You are such a silly little man Izzy.
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« Reply #75 on: May 03, 2011, 02:24:19 PM »

LOL. I don't look for the Christian truth from ecclesiastical communities concerned with "dung chairs" and unused testicles.
Once again... more concerned with our bathroom habbits. You are such a silly little man Izzy.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

chick-chick...chick-chick....chick chick chick!!
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« Reply #76 on: May 03, 2011, 02:42:26 PM »

Christus resurrexit.
LOL. I don't look for the Christian truth from ecclesiastical communities concerned with "dung chairs" and unused testicles.
Once again... more concerned with our bathroom habbits. You are such a silly little man Izzy.
I see you missed this:
I don't care whatever you are doing with yourself in the bathroom..
You're the ones feeling up your primates, not I.  In fact, we have had primates who would have failed such a test, like EP St. Ignatius (the one whom Pope St. Nicholas used to create a schism to assert Ultramontanist claims).  We have neither the Judaizing tendencies nor obsession for a constructed "natural law" to check these things out on celibates.  (Of course, having a beard usiual makes it unnecessary to look and check out other parts other than the face).  I do have to agree with the cardinal's lines in "the Borgias" on your supreme pontiff Alexander VI "you would think that his children would be proof enough, or maybe his mistress can testify as to his virility" or something like that (they were mumbling: when your vicar of Christ passed the test, the cardinal did say distinctly "two hard ones. Deo Gratia").
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« Reply #77 on: May 03, 2011, 02:44:24 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
LOL. I don't look for the Christian truth from ecclesiastical communities concerned with "dung chairs" and unused testicles.
Once again... more concerned with our bathroom habbits. You are such a silly little man Izzy.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

chick-chick...chick-chick....chick chick chick!!
Is that St. Peter in cock's crow?  There's not supposed to be a chick in that hen house, just roosters.  Which of course why the place is such a cock fight. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #78 on: May 03, 2011, 02:50:01 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
LOL. I don't look for the Christian truth from ecclesiastical communities concerned with "dung chairs" and unused testicles.
Once again... more concerned with our bathroom habbits. You are such a silly little man Izzy.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

chick-chick...chick-chick....chick chick chick!!
Is that St. Peter in cock's crow?  There's not supposed to be a chick in that hen house, just roosters.  Which of course why the place is such a cock fight. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Well...let's not do this or someone will prick the veil that is cast over the Holy Mountain and then where will all those Greek boys go?
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« Reply #79 on: May 03, 2011, 03:02:04 PM »

I am sorry but my mother and grandmothers are not intelligent internet blogger Catholics, who were given by God the right to anathemise and insult bishops. They cannot read Latin nor speak any other languages, they are not college graduates but they feed me and have passed the faith onto me.  I do not view them as ignorant. They taught me how to pray the Holy Rosary; how to make the sign of the cross; they forced me to go to church when I did not want to; force me to work when I want to sit idle. I thought that someone was going to say this. I laughed at that idea, when I heard them singing the litany to Our Lady, downstairs, yes out of tune, in old women chant but every prayer is beautiful. How often do you people sing at home to the Virgin Mary? I don't remember a day when I do not hear my grandmother singing hymns or praying the Rosary at home.  
    
I don't feel any regrets that I listen to my elders.

As an aside:
Galicyja was a grand country, a country that will never return. All we can have is sweet memories and the weird Austro-Hungarian dialect of Polish. My family was from Western Galicyja not Eastern. There was never Rusin settlement in Mielec.
 
Galicja in 1910 was 58% Polish and 40% Ukrainian
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« Reply #80 on: May 03, 2011, 03:28:35 PM »

Christos Voskrese!
Christus resurrexit!
LOL. I don't look for the Christian truth from ecclesiastical communities concerned with "dung chairs" and unused testicles.
Once again... more concerned with our bathroom habbits. You are such a silly little man Izzy.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

chick-chick...chick-chick....chick chick chick!!
Is that St. Peter in cock's crow?  There's not supposed to be a chick in that hen house, just roosters.  Which of course why the place is such a cock fight. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Well...let's not do this or someone will prick the veil that is cast over the Holy Mountain and then where will all those Greek boys go?
I've never been to Mount Athos (to me, Holy Mountain means Sinai), but if you say that they check for manhood at the dock, I'll take your word for it, as you seem to know more about it.
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« Reply #81 on: May 03, 2011, 03:33:16 PM »

Beautiful post.  Both of my grandmothers are silent now and my mother will join them sooner rather than later, and I expect I'll not be far behind  Smiley...So it is good to know that the younger ones will remember and important to give them beautiful memories to keep safe and sound.

Christ is Risen!

M.

I am sorry but my mother and grandmothers are not intelligent internet blogger Catholics, who were given by God the right to anathemise and insult bishops. They cannot read Latin nor speak any other languages, they are not college graduates but they feed me and have passed the faith onto me.  I do not view them as ignorant. They taught me how to pray the Holy Rosary; how to make the sign of the cross; they forced me to go to church when I did not want to; force me to work when I want to sit idle. I thought that someone was going to say this. I laughed at that idea, when I heard them singing the litany to Our Lady, downstairs, yes out of tune, in old women chant but every prayer is beautiful. How often do you people sing at home to the Virgin Mary? I don't remember a day when I do not hear my grandmother singing hymns or praying the Rosary at home.  
    
I don't feel any regrets that I listen to my elders.

As an aside:
Galicyja was a grand country, a country that will never return. All we can have is sweet memories and the weird Austro-Hungarian dialect of Polish. My family was from Western Galicyja not Eastern. There was never Rusin settlement in Mielec.
 
Galicja in 1910 was 58% Polish and 40% Ukrainian
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« Reply #82 on: May 03, 2011, 03:38:02 PM »

Chrystus zmartwychwstał!
I am sorry but my mother and grandmothers are not intelligent internet blogger Catholics, who were given by God the right to anathemise and insult bishops. They cannot read Latin nor speak any other languages, they are not college graduates but they feed me and have passed the faith onto me.  I do not view them as ignorant. They taught me how to pray the Holy Rosary; how to make the sign of the cross; they forced me to go to church when I did not want to; force me to work when I want to sit idle. I thought that someone was going to say this. I laughed at that idea, when I heard them singing the litany to Our Lady, downstairs, yes out of tune, in old women chant but every prayer is beautiful. How often do you people sing at home to the Virgin Mary? I don't remember a day when I do not hear my grandmother singing hymns or praying the Rosary at home.  
    
I don't feel any regrets that I listen to my elders.

As an aside:
Galicyja was a grand country, a country that will never return. All we can have is sweet memories and the weird Austro-Hungarian dialect of Polish. My family was from Western Galicyja not Eastern. There was never Rusin settlement in Mielec.
 
Galicja in 1910 was 58% Polish and 40% Ukrainian
Ah, so you are from the Polish peasantry of Halych. Explains a lot. A lot indeed.

Mielec was in the Subcarpathian Voivodship.
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« Reply #83 on: May 03, 2011, 04:09:29 PM »

I don't want to lump them together by any means. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be overly optimistic about the typical Catholic.
The problem with the "typical Catholic" is that the typical Catholic is often a cradle Catholic, and many times (but not always) they tend to be very lukewarm when it comes to the faith. I do know some lifelong Catholics who are rather zealous about their faith (especially the little old ladies that never miss Mass and go to confession every week), but for the most part it seems that the adult converts are the most passionate about Catholicism.

This sounds like typical convert rhetoric which seeks to bash anyone whose a cradle as "lukewarm" and "irreligious".  Lets not forget that, if it wasn't for the "cradles" coming over to this country and working hard to establish the faith then their wouldn't be a Church here for the converts to join in the first place.

God bless the cradles!!!
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« Reply #84 on: May 03, 2011, 04:40:59 PM »

Chrystus zmartwychwstał!
I am sorry but my mother and grandmothers are not intelligent internet blogger Catholics, who were given by God the right to anathemise and insult bishops. They cannot read Latin nor speak any other languages, they are not college graduates but they feed me and have passed the faith onto me.  I do not view them as ignorant. They taught me how to pray the Holy Rosary; how to make the sign of the cross; they forced me to go to church when I did not want to; force me to work when I want to sit idle. I thought that someone was going to say this. I laughed at that idea, when I heard them singing the litany to Our Lady, downstairs, yes out of tune, in old women chant but every prayer is beautiful. How often do you people sing at home to the Virgin Mary? I don't remember a day when I do not hear my grandmother singing hymns or praying the Rosary at home.  
    
I don't feel any regrets that I listen to my elders.

As an aside:
Galicyja was a grand country, a country that will never return. All we can have is sweet memories and the weird Austro-Hungarian dialect of Polish. My family was from Western Galicyja not Eastern. There was never Rusin settlement in Mielec.
 
Galicja in 1910 was 58% Polish and 40% Ukrainian
Ah, so you are from the Polish peasantry of Halych. Explains a lot. A lot indeed.

Mielec was in the Subcarpathian Voivodship.
Yes, we are dark, ignorant, uneducated, and over religious. That is typical for the inhabitants of the banks of the Wisłoka of the Tarnów and Rzeszów regions.
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« Reply #85 on: May 03, 2011, 04:45:43 PM »

Chrystus zmartwychwstał!

Ah, so you are from the Polish peasantry of Halych. Explains a lot. A lot indeed.

Mielec was in the Subcarpathian Voivodship.
Yes, we are dark, ignorant, uneducated, and over religious. That is typical for the inhabitants of the banks of the Wisłoka of the Tarnów and Rzeszów regions.
Being ignorant or uneducated isn't an issue, but being dark from being over religious in the wrong religion is a different matter.
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« Reply #86 on: May 03, 2011, 05:16:17 PM »

Chrystus zmartwychwstał!
I am sorry but my mother and grandmothers are not intelligent internet blogger Catholics, who were given by God the right to anathemise and insult bishops. They cannot read Latin nor speak any other languages, they are not college graduates but they feed me and have passed the faith onto me.  I do not view them as ignorant. They taught me how to pray the Holy Rosary; how to make the sign of the cross; they forced me to go to church when I did not want to; force me to work when I want to sit idle. I thought that someone was going to say this. I laughed at that idea, when I heard them singing the litany to Our Lady, downstairs, yes out of tune, in old women chant but every prayer is beautiful. How often do you people sing at home to the Virgin Mary? I don't remember a day when I do not hear my grandmother singing hymns or praying the Rosary at home.  
    
I don't feel any regrets that I listen to my elders.

As an aside:
Galicyja was a grand country, a country that will never return. All we can have is sweet memories and the weird Austro-Hungarian dialect of Polish. My family was from Western Galicyja not Eastern. There was never Rusin settlement in Mielec.
 
Galicja in 1910 was 58% Polish and 40% Ukrainian
Ah, so you are from the Polish peasantry of Halych. Explains a lot. A lot indeed.

Mielec was in the Subcarpathian Voivodship.
Yes, we are dark, ignorant, uneducated, and over religious. That is typical for the inhabitants of the banks of the Wisłoka of the Tarnów and Rzeszów regions.
Just curious: What do you mean by "dark"?
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« Reply #87 on: May 03, 2011, 05:29:06 PM »

Chrystus zmartwychwstał!
I am sorry but my mother and grandmothers are not intelligent internet blogger Catholics, who were given by God the right to anathemise and insult bishops. They cannot read Latin nor speak any other languages, they are not college graduates but they feed me and have passed the faith onto me.  I do not view them as ignorant. They taught me how to pray the Holy Rosary; how to make the sign of the cross; they forced me to go to church when I did not want to; force me to work when I want to sit idle. I thought that someone was going to say this. I laughed at that idea, when I heard them singing the litany to Our Lady, downstairs, yes out of tune, in old women chant but every prayer is beautiful. How often do you people sing at home to the Virgin Mary? I don't remember a day when I do not hear my grandmother singing hymns or praying the Rosary at home.  
    
I don't feel any regrets that I listen to my elders.

As an aside:
Galicyja was a grand country, a country that will never return. All we can have is sweet memories and the weird Austro-Hungarian dialect of Polish. My family was from Western Galicyja not Eastern. There was never Rusin settlement in Mielec.
 
Galicja in 1910 was 58% Polish and 40% Ukrainian
Ah, so you are from the Polish peasantry of Halych. Explains a lot. A lot indeed.

Mielec was in the Subcarpathian Voivodship.
Yes, we are dark, ignorant, uneducated, and over religious. That is typical for the inhabitants of the banks of the Wisłoka of the Tarnów and Rzeszów regions.
Just curious: What do you mean by "dark"?
I can answer, but it might be misconstrued as "political."
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« Reply #88 on: May 03, 2011, 06:40:47 PM »

It doesn't matter with Izzy. If we Catholics don't use the restroom exactly the way Izzy thinks we should, he starts crying, "heresy! heresy!"
Once a Lutheran, always a Lutheran I suppose.
I suppose that, Papist, those grasping after straws, will eventually turn to chaff, as here.  Tell us, papist, pray tell, of this alleged Lutheran heresy you claim.

That would have been a good post, if you had stopped right there.
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« Reply #89 on: May 03, 2011, 06:42:05 PM »

I don't want to lump them together by any means. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be overly optimistic about the typical Catholic.
The problem with the "typical Catholic" is that the typical Catholic is often a cradle Catholic, and many times (but not always) they tend to be very lukewarm when it comes to the faith. I do know some lifelong Catholics who are rather zealous about their faith (especially the little old ladies that never miss Mass and go to confession every week), but for the most part it seems that the adult converts are the most passionate about Catholicism.

This sounds like typical convert rhetoric which seeks to bash anyone whose a cradle as "lukewarm" and "irreligious".  Lets not forget that, if it wasn't for the "cradles" coming over to this country and working hard to establish the faith then their wouldn't be a Church here for the converts to join in the first place.

God bless the cradles!!!

Hear hear!
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« Reply #90 on: May 03, 2011, 10:57:25 PM »

I don't want to lump them together by any means. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be overly optimistic about the typical Catholic.
The problem with the "typical Catholic" is that the typical Catholic is often a cradle Catholic, and many times (but not always) they tend to be very lukewarm when it comes to the faith. I do know some lifelong Catholics who are rather zealous about their faith (especially the little old ladies that never miss Mass and go to confession every week), but for the most part it seems that the adult converts are the most passionate about Catholicism.

This sounds like typical convert rhetoric which seeks to bash anyone whose a cradle as "lukewarm" and "irreligious".  Lets not forget that, if it wasn't for the "cradles" coming over to this country and working hard to establish the faith then their wouldn't be a Church here for the converts to join in the first place.

God bless the cradles!!!
Then you didn't read my post. I said "many times" and then immediately afterwards in parentheses I said "but not always."
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« Reply #91 on: May 07, 2011, 08:57:15 PM »

Wyatt, I don't know about Robb but personally I'd like to hear some further explanation of what you meant by:
 "The problem with the "typical Catholic" is that the typical Catholic is often a cradle Catholic, and many times (but not always) they tend to be very lukewarm when it comes to the faith."
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« Reply #92 on: May 07, 2011, 09:02:00 PM »

I don't want married priests in my church. There are plenty of sects where you can play "Eucharist" and be married.

You already have.

Sometimes you hear a comment and there's really nothing to say in reply, other than "Did he/she really say that?"

I recall a comment posted somewhere that "A married priest in a financial burden on a parish."
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« Reply #93 on: May 08, 2011, 06:08:02 AM »

Chrystus zmartwychwstał!
What's shocking in this all?
Nothing. Normal Catholics would be confounded and angry if the Church allowed married priests. This is our Holy Tradition.
My mother and grandmother were astounded when they read in Catholic newspapers that the Vatican would allow married priests for the Anglicans. In the eyes of Catholics, even this exception from the law is too far reaching.
Just showing how parochial and heretical the Vatican is, that its followers, confroted by Apostolic practice, would be astounded.


Firstly, marriage before ordination is nothing wrong or immoral. It is simply not the norm in the West. I have older relatives who would have the same reaction due to poor levels of knowledge regarding the Eastern Churches and Church history. A hilarious example of that been my father's objection to paedocommunion on the grounds that 'the baby couldn't understand it.'  My father couldn't counter my wife's point though that this is similar to the objection to infant baptism used by fundamentalists and other.

Secondly the point above about pariochalism for some reason has the word irony gamboling across the meadows of my mind, such as they are.
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These will pass,
Will pass and change, will die and be no more,
Things bright and green, things young and happy;
And I have gone upon my way
Sorrowful.

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