Author Topic: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP  (Read 1304 times)

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« on: April 27, 2011, 06:20:33 AM »
http://portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=83723

Patriarch Kyrill proposed the UAOC join the Moscow Patriarchate, keeping its autocephalous status
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

(Machine translation - slightly altered) Join the ROC with Rights of wide-ranging autonomy offered Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, Kyrill, taking part on the Bright Week in ceremonies of Remembrance of the Chernobyl disaster in Ukraine. About Patriarch Kyrill's proposal was related on the air of the Ukrainian "5-th channel" by UAOC Primate. Metropolitan of Kiev and All Ukraine Methodius (Kudryakov).

"He said, - the reported Metropolitan Methodius - that" you have more than 10 years of negotiating with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and things there, and I offer you a status that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad has - you retain autocephaly, the device that you have all your church, the funds will be at your disposal, the only - you will attend the Councils of Bishop Vladimir (Sabodan).

Metropolitan Methodius went to answer the question about his personal attitude toward such a proposal, but it was obvious that it interested him.

As noted in his commentary site on "Religion in Ukraine "," it is obvious that the Patriarch's main strategy is to attach to the ROC of any "problem" of Orthodox communities in order to enhance the international influence of the Moscow Patriarchate. "


Offline Byron

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2011, 06:46:26 AM »
I have never understood why the UAOC and the UOC-Kiev Patriarchate, as 2 anti-MP, pro-Ukrainian nationalist movements, never united in the years following Ukraine's independence. Why is that?

That would leave 2 Orthodox churches in the Ukraine instead of 3, and perhaps make negotiations for 1 united Church, slightly easier.
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"Country, Loyalty, Family and Religion".

Nationalism, Monarchy, Family and Orthodoxy.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2011, 01:07:13 PM »

The last line is the best, "... it is obvious that the Patriarch's main strategy is to attach to the ROC of any "problem" of Orthodox communities in order to enhance the international influence of the Moscow Patriarchate. "

My fingers are itching to type, however, I don't know how to answer this without getting "political".

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Offline serb1389

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2011, 06:09:16 PM »

The last line is the best, "... it is obvious that the Patriarch's main strategy is to attach to the ROC of any "problem" of Orthodox communities in order to enhance the international influence of the Moscow Patriarchate. "

My fingers are itching to type, however, I don't know how to answer this without getting "political".



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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2011, 06:22:11 PM »

 :D  I'm always "nice"....just sometimes nice and opinionated.   ;)
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Offline SubdeaconDavid

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2011, 06:51:12 PM »
http://portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=83723

Patriarch Kyrill proposed the UAOC join the Moscow Patriarchate, keeping its autocephalous status
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

(Machine translation - slightly altered) Join the ROC with Rights of wide-ranging autonomy offered Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, Kyrill, taking part on the Bright Week in ceremonies of Remembrance of the Chernobyl disaster in Ukraine. About Patriarch Kyrill's proposal was related on the air of the Ukrainian "5-th channel" by UAOC Primate. Metropolitan of Kiev and All Ukraine Methodius (Kudryakov).

"He said, - the reported Metropolitan Methodius - that" you have more than 10 years of negotiating with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and things there, and I offer you a status that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad has - you retain autocephaly, the device that you have all your church, the funds will be at your disposal, the only - you will attend the Councils of Bishop Vladimir (Sabodan).

Metropolitan Methodius went to answer the question about his personal attitude toward such a proposal, but it was obvious that it interested him.

As noted in his commentary site on "Religion in Ukraine "," it is obvious that the Patriarch's main strategy is to attach to the ROC of any "problem" of Orthodox communities in order to enhance the international influence of the Moscow Patriarchate. "


The logical place for the Ukrainian Orthodox is within the Russian Orthodox Church as an Autocephalous Church.  One only has to look at the warm relations between Moscow and ROCOR to see how well the union has worked. There is no reason for it not to do the same, especially as His  Holiness is a man of integrity.
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Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2011, 07:03:37 PM »
http://portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=83723

Patriarch Kyrill proposed the UAOC join the Moscow Patriarchate, keeping its autocephalous status
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

(Machine translation - slightly altered) Join the ROC with Rights of wide-ranging autonomy offered Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, Kyrill, taking part on the Bright Week in ceremonies of Remembrance of the Chernobyl disaster in Ukraine. About Patriarch Kyrill's proposal was related on the air of the Ukrainian "5-th channel" by UAOC Primate. Metropolitan of Kiev and All Ukraine Methodius (Kudryakov).

"He said, - the reported Metropolitan Methodius - that" you have more than 10 years of negotiating with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and things there, and I offer you a status that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad has - you retain autocephaly, the device that you have all your church, the funds will be at your disposal, the only - you will attend the Councils of Bishop Vladimir (Sabodan).

Metropolitan Methodius went to answer the question about his personal attitude toward such a proposal, but it was obvious that it interested him.

As noted in his commentary site on "Religion in Ukraine "," it is obvious that the Patriarch's main strategy is to attach to the ROC of any "problem" of Orthodox communities in order to enhance the international influence of the Moscow Patriarchate. "


The logical place for the Ukrainian Orthodox is within the Russian Orthodox Church as an Autocephalous Church.  One only has to look at the warm relations between Moscow and ROCOR to see how well the union has worked. There is no reason for it not to do the same, especially as His  Holiness is a man of integrity.

Um, you are overlooking one significant reason why ROCOR and Moscow get along:

They are both RUSSIAN.

I, like Liza, have much to say, but will bite my tongue, as it belongs in politics.
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2011, 07:09:45 PM »
Let me get this straight: Moscow is offering TWO autonomous churches in Ukraine (or THREE with to under itself)?

If so, what's the change other than some degree of official communion for the UAOC?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2011, 07:18:53 PM »
Христос воскрес!
http://portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=83723

Patriarch Kyrill proposed the UAOC join the Moscow Patriarchate, keeping its autocephalous status
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

(Machine translation - slightly altered) Join the ROC with Rights of wide-ranging autonomy offered Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, Kyrill, taking part on the Bright Week in ceremonies of Remembrance of the Chernobyl disaster in Ukraine. About Patriarch Kyrill's proposal was related on the air of the Ukrainian "5-th channel" by UAOC Primate. Metropolitan of Kiev and All Ukraine Methodius (Kudryakov).

"He said, - the reported Metropolitan Methodius - that" you have more than 10 years of negotiating with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and things there, and I offer you a status that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad has - you retain autocephaly, the device that you have all your church, the funds will be at your disposal, the only - you will attend the Councils of Bishop Vladimir (Sabodan).

Metropolitan Methodius went to answer the question about his personal attitude toward such a proposal, but it was obvious that it interested him.

As noted in his commentary site on "Religion in Ukraine "," it is obvious that the Patriarch's main strategy is to attach to the ROC of any "problem" of Orthodox communities in order to enhance the international influence of the Moscow Patriarchate. "


The logical place for the Ukrainian Orthodox is within the Russian Orthodox Church as an Autocephalous Church.  One only has to look at the warm relations between Moscow and ROCOR to see how well the union has worked. There is no reason for it not to do the same, especially as His  Holiness is a man of integrity.

Um, you are overlooking one significant reason why ROCOR and Moscow get along:

They are both RUSSIAN.

I, like Liza, have much to say, but will bite my tongue, as it belongs in politics.
ROCOR does have something in common with ROCOR: it is OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA.

The logical place for Ukrainian Orthodox Church is in the diptychs as an autocephalous Church, with Met. (better yet, Patriarch) Volodymyr  heading his own Holy Synod of All Ukraine.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2011, 08:20:03 PM »
Patriarch Kyrill proposed the UAOC join the Moscow Patriarchate, keeping its autocephalous status

The logical place for the Ukrainian Orthodox is within the Russian Orthodox Church as an Autocephalous Church.

What are you guys talking about? I don't see how it is possible for a church to be autocephalous and part of another church.
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Offline Punch

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2011, 08:50:41 PM »
Why not?  Ukraine is a large country with East and West being nearly two cultures.  Personally, I don't see why there cannot be two Ukrainian Orthodox Churches that are fully autonomous AND in communion with Russia.  Just because a group of people live within an area circumscribed with a line on a map does not mean that they have anything in common other than proximity.

Let me get this straight: Moscow is offering TWO autonomous churches in Ukraine (or THREE with to under itself)?

If so, what's the change other than some degree of official communion for the UAOC?
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2011, 09:01:57 PM »
You guys are killing me!  I'm going to explode!  :)  Handmaiden, will you be kind enough to glue me back together, please?
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2011, 10:14:01 AM »
http://portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=83723

Patriarch Kyrill proposed the UAOC join the Moscow Patriarchate, keeping its autocephalous status
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

(Machine translation - slightly altered) Join the ROC with Rights of wide-ranging autonomy offered Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, Kyrill, taking part on the Bright Week in ceremonies of Remembrance of the Chernobyl disaster in Ukraine. About Patriarch Kyrill's proposal was related on the air of the Ukrainian "5-th channel" by UAOC Primate. Metropolitan of Kiev and All Ukraine Methodius (Kudryakov).

"He said, - the reported Metropolitan Methodius - that" you have more than 10 years of negotiating with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and things there, and I offer you a status that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad has - you retain autocephaly, the device that you have all your church, the funds will be at your disposal, the only - you will attend the Councils of Bishop Vladimir (Sabodan).

Metropolitan Methodius went to answer the question about his personal attitude toward such a proposal, but it was obvious that it interested him.

As noted in his commentary site on "Religion in Ukraine "," it is obvious that the Patriarch's main strategy is to attach to the ROC of any "problem" of Orthodox communities in order to enhance the international influence of the Moscow Patriarchate. "


The logical place for the Ukrainian Orthodox is within the Russian Orthodox Church as an Autocephalous Church.  One only has to look at the warm relations between Moscow and ROCOR to see how well the union has worked. There is no reason for it not to do the same, especially as His  Holiness is a man of integrity.

Um, you are overlooking one significant reason why ROCOR and Moscow get along:

They are both RUSSIAN.

I, like Liza, have much to say, but will bite my tongue, as it belongs in politics.

Double 'duh.'  ;)

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2011, 10:17:28 AM »
Why not?  Ukraine is a large country with East and West being nearly two cultures.  Personally, I don't see why there cannot be two Ukrainian Orthodox Churches that are fully autonomous AND in communion with Russia.  Just because a group of people live within an area circumscribed with a line on a map does not mean that they have anything in common other than proximity.

Let me get this straight: Moscow is offering TWO autonomous churches in Ukraine (or THREE with to under itself)?

If so, what's the change other than some degree of official communion for the UAOC?



That's an interesting(?) argument. Without needing to get into politics, why not then an autonomous Church for Ukrainians living in Russia? Surely there are a lot of them in Russia, which is a big country with more than one culture. How about the Belarus within Russia? Are there any Greeks or Syrians there while we are at it? If we go down that path, soon things will be just as non-canonical as the state of things in the good ol' USA.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 10:17:46 AM by podkarpatska »

Offline Eugenio

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2011, 10:18:16 AM »
The translation is horrible.  >:(

It's something that seems to happy frequently with this "portal-credo" site. They display articles in garbled Russglish.

Unless, I can read a version that is better translated, I cannot trust anything written on that site for concern that the message might be distorted from the awful translation.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2011, 10:20:06 AM »
The translation is horrible.  >:(

It's something that seems to happy frequently with this "portal-credo" site. They display articles in garbled Russglish.

Unless, I can read a version that is better translated, I cannot trust anything written on that site for concern that the message might be distorted from the awful translation.

Sounds like it was auto-translated. The same thing happens when you use your GPS without having a map to look at. We got stuck in Brooklyn yesterday without a map going to Kennedy airport and the 'shortest' route was obviously not the fastest! It should have said 'interesting' as an option!  ;) ;)

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2011, 10:33:07 AM »
SO what I want to know is... What is so "unorthodox" about the UAOC and Ukrainian-Kiev Churches that they aren't in communion with all other Orthodox Churches? Was it a voluntary break or one that was sort-of forced upon them?
If the MP cut them off simply because they wanted independence, then shame on the MP. If they broke off on their own because they want independence, then shame on them.

How did the break happen? And why does nationality matter? If they want their independence, give it to them. As far as I know, they still hold on to the Orthodox faith, and that is what matters, not who is a part of what jurisdiction. Christ doesn't care what jurisdiction you are a part of. If you hold onto the same faith, then you're Orthodox and there is no excuse for schism other than when a group departs the faith.


Offline Punch

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2011, 11:01:44 AM »
Why not?  Ukraine is a large country with East and West being nearly two cultures.  Personally, I don't see why there cannot be two Ukrainian Orthodox Churches that are fully autonomous AND in communion with Russia.  Just because a group of people live within an area circumscribed with a line on a map does not mean that they have anything in common other than proximity.

Let me get this straight: Moscow is offering TWO autonomous churches in Ukraine (or THREE with to under itself)?

If so, what's the change other than some degree of official communion for the UAOC?

I am not saying that there SHOULD be two Churches in Ukraine, only that I can see no reason why there cannot, as long as they are in communion with each other.  The same reasons that I believe this possible also apply to Ukrainians in Russia.  Why not have a UOCOR like the Russian ROCOR?  Why force fit a diverse people into one mold?  



That's an interesting(?) argument. Without needing to get into politics, why not then an autonomous Church for Ukrainians living in Russia? Surely there are a lot of them in Russia, which is a big country with more than one culture. How about the Belarus within Russia? Are there any Greeks or Syrians there while we are at it? If we go down that path, soon things will be just as non-canonical as the state of things in the good ol' USA.

I see no reason why one could not do what you propose.  My idea of "local" Churches has always been that - LOCAL.  I also do not mind the situation in the US.  As to the term non-canonical; I throw up every time I hear it.  There isn't a "canonical" Church on this planet, are there are a lot of other canons these Churches should start following before they worry about politics.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 11:04:42 AM by Punch »
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2011, 06:39:27 PM »
If the MP cut them off simply because they wanted independence, then shame on the MP...

How did the break happen? And why does nationality matter? If they want their independence, give it to them...

I agree that independence should have been given to them if they had requested it of Moscow. But I don't know that they even did that. And if Moscow didn't want to give them their independence, that's still Moscow's prerogative, and they have no right to form an autocephalous church without their consent; that is essentially schism.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2011, 09:49:12 PM »
Why not?  Ukraine is a large country with East and West being nearly two cultures.  Personally, I don't see why there cannot be two Ukrainian Orthodox Churches that are fully autonomous AND in communion with Russia.  Just because a group of people live within an area circumscribed with a line on a map does not mean that they have anything in common other than proximity.

Let me get this straight: Moscow is offering TWO autonomous churches in Ukraine (or THREE with to under itself)?

If so, what's the change other than some degree of official communion for the UAOC?

Why not? If one wishes to see Ukraine with multiple churches under Moscow similar to the US with multiple churches under the EP, sure. Somehow I don't buy that your east/west thing here will be so tidy.
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Punch

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2011, 11:00:09 PM »
Nothing about Orthodoxy is tidy.  Never has been. Never will be.

Why not?  Ukraine is a large country with East and West being nearly two cultures.  Personally, I don't see why there cannot be two Ukrainian Orthodox Churches that are fully autonomous AND in communion with Russia.  Just because a group of people live within an area circumscribed with a line on a map does not mean that they have anything in common other than proximity.

Let me get this straight: Moscow is offering TWO autonomous churches in Ukraine (or THREE with to under itself)?

If so, what's the change other than some degree of official communion for the UAOC?

Why not? If one wishes to see Ukraine with multiple churches under Moscow similar to the US with multiple churches under the EP, sure. Somehow I don't buy that your east/west thing here will be so tidy.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Patriarch Kyrill proposes the UAOC join the MP
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2011, 12:22:05 AM »
Христос воскрес!
http://portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=83723

Patriarch Kyrill proposed the UAOC join the Moscow Patriarchate, keeping its autocephalous status
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

(Machine translation - slightly altered) Join the ROC with Rights of wide-ranging autonomy offered Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, Kyrill, taking part on the Bright Week in ceremonies of Remembrance of the Chernobyl disaster in Ukraine. About Patriarch Kyrill's proposal was related on the air of the Ukrainian "5-th channel" by UAOC Primate. Metropolitan of Kiev and All Ukraine Methodius (Kudryakov).

"He said, - the reported Metropolitan Methodius - that" you have more than 10 years of negotiating with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and things there, and I offer you a status that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad has - you retain autocephaly, the device that you have all your church, the funds will be at your disposal, the only - you will attend the Councils of Bishop Vladimir (Sabodan).

Metropolitan Methodius went to answer the question about his personal attitude toward such a proposal, but it was obvious that it interested him.

As noted in his commentary site on "Religion in Ukraine "," it is obvious that the Patriarch's main strategy is to attach to the ROC of any "problem" of Orthodox communities in order to enhance the international influence of the Moscow Patriarchate. "


The logical place for the Ukrainian Orthodox is within the Russian Orthodox Church as an Autocephalous Church.  One only has to look at the warm relations between Moscow and ROCOR to see how well the union has worked. There is no reason for it not to do the same, especially as His  Holiness is a man of integrity.

Um, you are overlooking one significant reason why ROCOR and Moscow get along:

They are both RUSSIAN.

I, like Liza, have much to say, but will bite my tongue, as it belongs in politics.
ROCOR does have something in common with ROCOR Ukraine: it is OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA.
ooops.  Carry on.

Quote
he logical place for Ukrainian Orthodox Church is in the diptychs as an autocephalous Church, with Met. (better yet, Patriarch) Volodymyr  heading his own Holy Synod of All Ukraine.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth