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Author Topic: Superman to Renounce U.S. Citizenship  (Read 3604 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 28, 2011, 01:51:49 PM »

"Superman is no longer an American.

In "Action Comics’" new record-breaking 900th issue,  the fictional iconic superhero renounces his U.S citizenship following a clash with the federal government.
 
The Man of Steel, created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster in 1938, has always been recognized as a devoted American warrior who constantly fought evil, but as of Thursday, he is no longer the country's own to claim."
Full Article: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2011/04/28/superman-renounces-citizenship-00th-issue/
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« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2011, 01:54:32 PM »

Whose birth certificate would be more suspect: Kal-El's or Obama's?

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« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2011, 01:58:12 PM »

But Supe's supposed to be the protector of America!   Shocked Sad What is he going to do now, move? And will this leave us vulnerable to ever more villainous villains?  Huh
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« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2011, 01:58:41 PM »

FWIW, it is nearly impossible to renounce your US citizenship no matter what the immigration and nationality act has to say. Read, heard, watched, an article, radio documentary, documentary about US citizens trying to renounce their citizenship to no avail. Some of the circumstances under which the attempts were made were hilarious.

I think the only person successful in renouncing their citizenship had to hire an attorney and even then it was not easy.



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« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2011, 02:00:45 PM »

But Supe's supposed to be the protector of America!   Shocked Sad What is he going to do now, move? And will this leave us vulnerable to ever more villainous villains?  Huh

Not in every possible Universe was Superman all apple pie:

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« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2011, 02:16:54 PM »

I am surprized to read that Superman is an American citizen.  I thought he was Canadian and the newspaper he worked for was a pseudonym for "The Toronto Star."
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« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2011, 02:32:29 PM »

I thought he was Canadian and the newspaper he worked for was a pseudonym for "The Toronto Star."

First I've heard that.  Huh
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« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2011, 03:02:21 PM »

Truth, Justice and the American Way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0B1ufyXOds

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« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2011, 03:10:12 PM »

FWIW, it is nearly impossible to renounce your US citizenship no matter what the immigration and nationality act has to say. Read, heard, watched, an article, radio documentary, documentary about US citizens trying to renounce their citizenship to no avail. Some of the circumstances under which the attempts were made were hilarious.

I think the only person successful in renouncing their citizenship had to hire an attorney and even then it was not easy.

WRONG!  Charlie Chaplin renounced his US citizenship and had to spend the rest of his life outside the USA.  Margaret Papandreaou, 2nd of wife of Greek Premier Andreas Papandreaou, renounced her US citizenship when her husband was elected Premier of Greece.  After she divorced him, she found she could not return to the USA without applying for a visa like any other potential immigrant.
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« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2011, 09:23:30 PM »

Whose birth certificate would be more suspect: Kal-El's or Obama's?

Keep this thread clear of blatant political references such as this one or warnings will be issued.

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« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2011, 09:52:58 PM »

In order to renounce US citizenship you must have citizenship in a foreign nation.  Did Superman become a citizen of a foreign country?
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« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2011, 10:07:36 PM »

In order to renounce US citizenship you must have citizenship in a foreign nation.  Did Superman become a citizen of a foreign country?

Since the DC multiverse accepts the possibility that there is life on more than the planet Earth, perhaps the laws in that multiverse are different? 

There is a wonderful legal blog called Law and the Multiverse that is starting to tackle this very question.  I highly suggest checking it out if you're interested in the legal ramifications of things that happen in comic book worlds.
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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2011, 10:28:52 PM »



There is a wonderful legal blog called Law and the Multiverse that is starting to tackle this very question.  I highly suggest checking it out if you're interested in the legal ramifications of things that happen in comic book worlds.
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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2011, 10:37:24 PM »

In order to renounce US citizenship you must have citizenship in a foreign nation.  Did Superman become a citizen of a foreign country?

Since the DC multiverse accepts the possibility that there is life on more than the planet Earth, perhaps the laws in that multiverse are different? 

There is a wonderful legal blog called Law and the Multiverse that is starting to tackle this very question.  I highly suggest checking it out if you're interested in the legal ramifications of things that happen in comic book worlds.

One of my favorites (along with politedissent which tackles comic books and sci-fi shows from a more medical angle).
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« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2011, 12:01:30 AM »

@orthonorm: I absolutely loved Red Son. Probably in my top 5 DC stories.

I thought he was Canadian and the newspaper he worked for was a pseudonym for "The Toronto Star."

First I've heard that.  Huh
Joe Schuster was Canadian and based the Daily Planet off the Toronto Star, but Metropolis has been pretty clearly American.
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« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2011, 02:11:03 AM »

Good riddance!  I always liked Lex Luther better anyway Tongue
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« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2011, 03:34:54 AM »

In order to renounce US citizenship you must have citizenship in a foreign nation.  Did Superman become a citizen of a foreign country?

Since the DC multiverse accepts the possibility that there is life on more than the planet Earth, perhaps the laws in that multiverse are different? 

There is a wonderful legal blog called Law and the Multiverse that is starting to tackle this very question.  I highly suggest checking it out if you're interested in the legal ramifications of things that happen in comic book worlds.

As sad as it is...I will almost certainly become a regular reader
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« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2011, 08:14:11 AM »

In order to renounce US citizenship you must have citizenship in a foreign nation.  Did Superman become a citizen of a foreign country?

Since the DC multiverse accepts the possibility that there is life on more than the planet Earth, perhaps the laws in that multiverse are different? 

There is a wonderful legal blog called Law and the Multiverse that is starting to tackle this very question.  I highly suggest checking it out if you're interested in the legal ramifications of things that happen in comic book worlds.


I think the city of Kandor has been brought back into DC continuity in recent years. Also Superman is presumably a citizen of the planet of Krypton, whilst it no longer exists he presumably would be a citizen of Kandor still been a native Krytonian. Also the issue of Superman been a known alien has been addressed at times in the past. Alan Moore addressed it years ago in an interesting way. In his run on on another DC comics character Swamp Thing one of the plot points is the govt. trying to prosecute the titular character's girlfriend for a sexual relationship with a non-human. The story eventually ends up in Gotham where Batman has to confront the Swamp Thing who is threatning the city to get his fiancee back but Batman is not too happy about it as he believes only legal rules have been broken and no moral ones. Someone points out at one point that sex with aliens is disgusting and Batman points out the number of humans and aliens in inter-species relationships in the DC universe (including at that point the original Robin) and then ends with and 'the one in Metropolis' as his killer point.

The issue of Superman been seen as an extension of US foreign policy has also been dealt with a few times. Where it's been implied that as a result the Martian Manhunter is more popular than Superman in some countries due to that. I strongly suspect however the reset button will be pushed as the story goes on and for some reason the status quo will be restored. It's the nature of serial style superhero tales. This can be avoided in stuff like the 'Superman:Red Son' story mentioned earlier as they take place in an 'imaginary' continuity (the others of course been totally real) and the story can develop in a different way and end with lasting consequences for the main characters. However stuff like this or Marvel's Civil War etc. tend to make no real lasting changes in the main universe.
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« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2011, 09:32:15 AM »

The issue of Superman been seen as an extension of US foreign policy has also been dealt with a few times. Where it's been implied that as a result the Martian Manhunter is more popular than Superman in some countries due to that. I strongly suspect however the reset button will be pushed as the story goes on and for some reason the status quo will be restored. It's the nature of serial style superhero tales. This can be avoided in stuff like the 'Superman:Red Son' story mentioned earlier as they take place in an 'imaginary' continuity (the others of course been totally real) and the story can develop in a different way and end with lasting consequences for the main characters. However stuff like this or Marvel's Civil War etc. tend to make no real lasting changes in the main universe.
Agreed. The Superman story is currently such a mess that a complete reboot has become necessary in order to make sense out of the story. It's happened several times in the past, and I suspect that the time has once again come.
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« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2011, 12:56:44 PM »

The issue of Superman been seen as an extension of US foreign policy has also been dealt with a few times. Where it's been implied that as a result the Martian Manhunter is more popular than Superman in some countries due to that. I strongly suspect however the reset button will be pushed as the story goes on and for some reason the status quo will be restored. It's the nature of serial style superhero tales. This can be avoided in stuff like the 'Superman:Red Son' story mentioned earlier as they take place in an 'imaginary' continuity (the others of course been totally real) and the story can develop in a different way and end with lasting consequences for the main characters. However stuff like this or Marvel's Civil War etc. tend to make no real lasting changes in the main universe.
Agreed. The Superman story is currently such a mess that a complete reboot has become necessary in order to make sense out of the story. It's happened several times in the past, and I suspect that the time has once again come.


For me personally Superman as I knew him as a child stopped with Alan Moore story 'Whatevert Happened to the Man of Tomorrow'. I regard a lot of the Superman stuff past that point as 'imaginary' tales. Although aren't they all as Alan Moore said in that story. I feel only Grant Morrison and a select few others are any good at writing the character at all. I could see Grant going with the abandoning US citizenship but doing something more crazy and surreal and interesting with it than is likely to come about because of the current story arc. More importantly his Superman always feels like he will stand up for everyone regardless and is likeable. My personal Golden Age of comics was the whole Earth 1 and Earth 2 era which contrary to much talkinng about it later I never found confusing as a child.
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Things bright and green, things young and happy;
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« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2011, 02:27:37 PM »

The issue of Superman been seen as an extension of US foreign policy has also been dealt with a few times. Where it's been implied that as a result the Martian Manhunter is more popular than Superman in some countries due to that. I strongly suspect however the reset button will be pushed as the story goes on and for some reason the status quo will be restored. It's the nature of serial style superhero tales. This can be avoided in stuff like the 'Superman:Red Son' story mentioned earlier as they take place in an 'imaginary' continuity (the others of course been totally real) and the story can develop in a different way and end with lasting consequences for the main characters. However stuff like this or Marvel's Civil War etc. tend to make no real lasting changes in the main universe.
Agreed. The Superman story is currently such a mess that a complete reboot has become necessary in order to make sense out of the story. It's happened several times in the past, and I suspect that the time has once again come.


For me personally Superman as I knew him as a child stopped with Alan Moore story 'Whatevert Happened to the Man of Tomorrow'. I regard a lot of the Superman stuff past that point as 'imaginary' tales. Although aren't they all as Alan Moore said in that story. I feel only Grant Morrison and a select few others are any good at writing the character at all. I could see Grant going with the abandoning US citizenship but doing something more crazy and surreal and interesting with it than is likely to come about because of the current story arc. More importantly his Superman always feels like he will stand up for everyone regardless and is likeable. My personal Golden Age of comics was the whole Earth 1 and Earth 2 era which contrary to much talkinng about it later I never found confusing as a child.
Mine is the Superman from the Death and Return of Superman series.
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« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2011, 02:59:15 PM »

Slightly after my time. I've read that but it wasn't really my cup of tea. I used to be hard core collector but just read stuff now that strikes my interest via trade paperbacks. My Batman for comparision is the one of O'Neill and Adams or Doug Moenech as a young, young kid. That should date me I think.Mike Barr also wrote a decent Batman. I also like Miller's Batman to an extent, well I did up until the ludicrous trainwreck of 'All-Star Batman and Robin' which is one of comic's most hideous moments.
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Things bright and green, things young and happy;
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« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2011, 04:31:01 PM »

Did it bother anybody else that in the last movie "superman" said:

"Out of the depths I hear people calling me".

In our prayers:

"Out of my depths I cry unto the Lord".

Seems blasphemous.
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« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2011, 04:48:52 PM »

The issue of Superman been seen as an extension of US foreign policy has also been dealt with a few times. Where it's been implied that as a result the Martian Manhunter is more popular than Superman in some countries due to that. I strongly suspect however the reset button will be pushed as the story goes on and for some reason the status quo will be restored. It's the nature of serial style superhero tales. This can be avoided in stuff like the 'Superman:Red Son' story mentioned earlier as they take place in an 'imaginary' continuity (the others of course been totally real) and the story can develop in a different way and end with lasting consequences for the main characters. However stuff like this or Marvel's Civil War etc. tend to make no real lasting changes in the main universe.
Agreed. The Superman story is currently such a mess that a complete reboot has become necessary in order to make sense out of the story. It's happened several times in the past, and I suspect that the time has once again come.


For me personally Superman as I knew him as a child stopped with Alan Moore story 'Whatevert Happened to the Man of Tomorrow'. I regard a lot of the Superman stuff past that point as 'imaginary' tales. Although aren't they all as Alan Moore said in that story. I feel only Grant Morrison and a select few others are any good at writing the character at all. I could see Grant going with the abandoning US citizenship but doing something more crazy and surreal and interesting with it than is likely to come about because of the current story arc. More importantly his Superman always feels like he will stand up for everyone regardless and is likeable. My personal Golden Age of comics was the whole Earth 1 and Earth 2 era which contrary to much talkinng about it later I never found confusing as a child.
Mine is the Superman from the Death and Return of Superman series.

I cut my reading teeth on my uncle's comic book collection (and my dad's occasional forays into comic collecting).  Lot's of pre-Crisis Superman at his craziest (Earths 1,2, etc, moving Earth out of the way of laser beams, that sort of thing).  When I started being old enough to buy my own comics Superman's death and return was just a little way on the horizon and Superman comics weren't my cup of tea.  Dull reading in the late 80s and early 90s.
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« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2011, 05:14:03 PM »

This reminds me of when Superman fought for the Soviets


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_Red_Son
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« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2011, 05:28:16 PM »

This reminds me of when Superman fought for the Soviets


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_Red_Son

That's one of the more entertaining imaginary stories about Superman. Although aren't they all to borrow a line. Or as DC was pompously calling them for a bit 'Elseworlds'. Formerreformer a lot of the fune and joie de vivre got sucked out of the comics world in the late 80's and 90's in the quest for grim, gritty realistic stories. An endeavour that I felt was laughable at times. You had people take material such as Moore's or others and try and copy it but missing the point they only copied the superficial aspects. Thus we ended up with a decade of comics full of big guns and gritted teeth.
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« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2011, 05:37:06 PM »

This reminds me of when Superman fought for the Soviets


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_Red_Son

That's one of the more entertaining imaginary stories about Superman. Although aren't they all to borrow a line. Or as DC was pompously calling them for a bit 'Elseworlds'. Formerreformer a lot of the fune and joie de vivre got sucked out of the comics world in the late 80's and 90's in the quest for grim, gritty realistic stories. An endeavour that I felt was laughable at times. You had people take material such as Moore's or others and try and copy it but missing the point they only copied the superficial aspects. Thus we ended up with a decade of comics full of big guns and gritted teeth.

And pouches and saliva strands.  The most entertaining thing about comics in the '90s was betting on how Rob Liefield was going to hide all the feet in the next panel.
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« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2011, 05:37:57 PM »

Down DC, go MARVEL!

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« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2011, 05:44:34 PM »

Down DC, go MARVEL!



I'm actually with you there, Mike, except in one instance- Batman could take out the entire Marvel Universe with enough prep time (I never did get the writers who did crossovers always having the fight come to a draw between Captain America and Batman.  Maybe if they were meeting for the first time as usually happens, but give Bruce Wayne a week and he'd figure out that all he has to do is use the flag as a tourniquet to send Cap into an apoplectic fit). 
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« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2011, 06:22:34 PM »

This reminds me of when Superman fought for the Soviets


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_Red_Son

Echo much?
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« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2011, 06:37:16 PM »

This reminds me of when Superman fought for the Soviets


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_Red_Son

Echo much?
It was a great story. The more awareness there is for it, the more likely it is we'll get a spin-off focused on Commie-Buster Batman. Don't complain.
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« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2011, 07:11:24 PM »

Quote
And pouches and saliva strands.  The most entertaining thing about comics in the '90s was betting on how Rob Liefield was going to hide all the feet in the next panel
.

Ah the evil one has been mentioned. I love DC and Marvel equally myself, I can think of some fantastic moments of pure joy I've had reading stories from both by great writers and artists. Many of whom have of course have worked for both.

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And then my heart hath told me:
These will pass,
Will pass and change, will die and be no more,
Things bright and green, things young and happy;
And I have gone upon my way
Sorrowful.

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« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2011, 03:18:40 PM »

In order to renounce US citizenship you must have citizenship in a foreign nation.  Did Superman become a citizen of a foreign country?

If you renounce your US citizenship you have to find a country that will take you.  Charlie Chaplin found that Switzerland would take him as an immigrant, but he did not become a Swiss citizen. 
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« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2011, 03:25:30 PM »

Ever since Time Warner bought DC Comics, they've gone downhill.  The art has not been what it once was, the storylines stink, and darned near every major hero gets "rebooted" every few years.  Between Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis and that other goofy crisis that DC Comics creates, more confusion and continuity issues ensue.  DC Comics' sales have not been all that good in the last decade and they are desperate.  This is just more drama out of the Time Warner folks who took over DC Comics.  They're destroying DC Comics.  DC's gone uber-liberal and I had to say enough's enough.

I knew something was wrong when DC stopped publishing their "Letters" pages.  It meant they weren't going to listen to readers any more.  So readers voted with their wallets.
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« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2011, 03:39:15 PM »

Ever since Time Warner bought DC Comics, they've gone downhill.  The art has not been what it once was, the storylines stink, and darned near every major hero gets "rebooted" every few years.  Between Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis and that other goofy crisis that DC Comics creates, more confusion and continuity issues ensue.  DC Comics' sales have not been all that good in the last decade and they are desperate.  This is just more drama out of the Time Warner folks who took over DC Comics.  They're destroying DC Comics.  DC's gone uber-liberal and I had to say enough's enough.

I knew something was wrong when DC stopped publishing their "Letters" pages.  It meant they weren't going to listen to readers any more.  So readers voted with their wallets.

Actually, having now read the story in question, there's nothing "uber-liberal" about it, unless you consider Superman participating in a protest against the Iranian government to be "uber-liberal".  That was the whole point of Superman renouncing his citizenship, you can't have a big ol' representative of America stepping on toes throughout the world without serious reprisal against the American people.

Besides, the way secret identities work, I'm sure Clark Kent will be more than happy to vote in the next US election.  Just don't expect him to be gung-ho against illegal immigration, all things considered (well, at least not unless J.M. Straczinski's writing for him, but JMS stories have a way of 'disappearing' from the continuity of whatever character he's tackled recently as soon as he leaves the title.  Really, the comic companies would be better off paying him his money and throwing the script in the trash than waste printing costs).
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« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2011, 05:15:17 PM »

Just as small point how does 'Superman' renounce his identity without revealing he is actually Clark  Kent. You can imagine it, so 'Mr er, 'Superman' when and where were you born and who were your parents?Ah right on this planet called Krypon you say, so are you cough,cough actually an US citizen? Hang on while I phone up Hawa, er I mean the Justice League and see if Batman will vouch for you. What's that you say, he has a secret identity? Oh heck.......'
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And then my heart hath told me:
These will pass,
Will pass and change, will die and be no more,
Things bright and green, things young and happy;
And I have gone upon my way
Sorrowful.

'The Wayfarer' Pádraig Anraí Mac Piarais
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« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2011, 05:57:59 PM »

Ever since Time Warner bought DC Comics, they've gone downhill.  The art has not been what it once was, the storylines stink, and darned near every major hero gets "rebooted" every few years.  Between Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis and that other goofy crisis that DC Comics creates, more confusion and continuity issues ensue.  DC Comics' sales have not been all that good in the last decade and they are desperate.  This is just more drama out of the Time Warner folks who took over DC Comics.  They're destroying DC Comics.  DC's gone uber-liberal and I had to say enough's enough.

I knew something was wrong when DC stopped publishing their "Letters" pages.  It meant they weren't going to listen to readers any more.  So readers voted with their wallets.

Actually, having now read the story in question, there's nothing "uber-liberal" about it, unless you consider Superman participating in a protest against the Iranian government to be "uber-liberal".  That was the whole point of Superman renouncing his citizenship, you can't have a big ol' representative of America stepping on toes throughout the world without serious reprisal against the American people.

Besides, the way secret identities work, I'm sure Clark Kent will be more than happy to vote in the next US election.  Just don't expect him to be gung-ho against illegal immigration, all things considered (well, at least not unless J.M. Straczinski's writing for him, but JMS stories have a way of 'disappearing' from the continuity of whatever character he's tackled recently as soon as he leaves the title.  Really, the comic companies would be better off paying him his money and throwing the script in the trash than waste printing costs).

"Superman" has been going liberal-activist for a while.  Before John Byrne took over, Superman was anti-gun and the problem isn't the tool, it's the idiots misusing the tool.  But the blame is on the gun, and the "possession" that guns have over people in their lefty minds.    It's been a long, slow descent.  That's why once they killed off the original Superman in such a cheesy way and then brought him back as an evil Black Lantern, I was done.

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« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2011, 06:22:14 PM »

Ever since Time Warner bought DC Comics, they've gone downhill.  The art has not been what it once was, the storylines stink, and darned near every major hero gets "rebooted" every few years.  Between Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis and that other goofy crisis that DC Comics creates, more confusion and continuity issues ensue.  DC Comics' sales have not been all that good in the last decade and they are desperate.  This is just more drama out of the Time Warner folks who took over DC Comics.  They're destroying DC Comics.  DC's gone uber-liberal and I had to say enough's enough.

I knew something was wrong when DC stopped publishing their "Letters" pages.  It meant they weren't going to listen to readers any more.  So readers voted with their wallets.


Actually, having now read the story in question, there's nothing "uber-liberal" about it, unless you consider Superman participating in a protest against the Iranian government to be "uber-liberal".  That was the whole point of Superman renouncing his citizenship, you can't have a big ol' representative of America stepping on toes throughout the world without serious reprisal against the American people.

Besides, the way secret identities work, I'm sure Clark Kent will be more than happy to vote in the next US election.  Just don't expect him to be gung-ho against illegal immigration, all things considered (well, at least not unless J.M. Straczinski's writing for him, but JMS stories have a way of 'disappearing' from the continuity of whatever character he's tackled recently as soon as he leaves the title.  Really, the comic companies would be better off paying him his money and throwing the script in the trash than waste printing costs).
"Superman" has been going liberal-activist for a while.  Before John Byrne took over, Superman was anti-gun and the problem isn't the tool, it's the idiots misusing the tool.  But the blame is on the gun, and the "possession" that guns have over people in their lefty minds.    It's been a long, slow descent.  That's why once they killed off the original Superman in such a cheesy way and then brought him back as an evil Black Lantern, I was done.
(I hope you don't mind me fixing the tags there, so others know who's saying what)

To a certain extent Superman has been a "liberal activist" since his inception.  This shouldn't be too surprising, comic book writers have always been a fairly liberal lot (save Ditko, who was an Objectivist Libertarian, and the only Objectivist Libertarian to ever produce art worthy of consumption. Yeah, Ayn Rand, Terry Goodkind I'm talking about you!).  If you're going to base your reading of comics on political views, you're pretty much stuck with Frank Miller and that guy who writes "Pigman" or whatever it's called.

As for killing off the "original" Superman, I'm assuming you mean Earth-2 Superman.  Yeah, that was pretty cheesy, and reading any Secret Crisis Crossover Infinity War deal from either of the Big Two (DC and Marvel, that is) is guaranteed to rot your brains (save World War Hulk.  I highly recommend it, 7 issues of Hulk smashing glee).  Stick with the monthlies of your favorite characters (or even better the trade paperbacks of story-lines you know are good).  But don't write off an entire comic company due to the mistakes of one company-wide crossover, at the most write off the writer (I refuse to read anything by Mark Millar after he came out as Pro-registration in the Civil War story on the Marvel end).
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« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2011, 06:34:30 PM »

To a certain extent Superman has been a "liberal activist" since his inception.  This shouldn't be too surprising, comic book writers have always been a fairly liberal lot (save Ditko, who was an Objectivist Libertarian, and the only Objectivist Libertarian to ever produce art worthy of consumption. Yeah, Ayn Rand, Terry Goodkind I'm talking about you!).

Yes, Rand is bad, but Goodkind is so, so much worse. I'm ashamed to admit I didn't detect his objectivist biases until the fourth or fifth book.

I hope you guys get a smile out of this:

"There are two novels that can change the course of a bookish fourteen year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with it's unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood. The other involves orcs."
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« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2011, 06:38:04 PM »


"There are two novels that can change the course of a bookish fourteen year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with it's unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood. The other involves orcs."
I have always appreciated that quote. Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2011, 11:08:26 PM »


"There are two novels that can change the course of a bookish fourteen year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with it's unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood. The other involves orcs."
I have always appreciated that quote. Smiley

Brilliant! Even if I am no LoTR lover. Brilliant nonetheless!

The attribution goes to Paul Krugman, FWIW.
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« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2011, 12:04:55 PM »

Ach, I hadn't read all the Black Lantern/Brightest day/Lava Lamp/Next moth the cerise power ring stuff so I was unaware of this been the final fate of the original Superman. Whilst I'm sure given who he is they will use him again that's a disgraceful misuse of the character. As a huge fan of the Earth-2 universe I'm quite annoyed by this. I never bought the original rationale for the original Crisis on Infinite Earths that the parallel universes were too hard to understand. I was age 12 then and I loved them. I loved seeing the Golden Age Characters popping up from time to time and the original Batman and Catwoman and their daughter the Huntress.

As to Ditko I find his Mr. A and other creations quite seriously crackers at times. That character and the Question are after all the moderls a certain hero in Watchmen is based on. The Question of course been published by a mainstream comics company couldn't go very far with the whole objectivist thing but there are shades of it in there.
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And then my heart hath told me:
These will pass,
Will pass and change, will die and be no more,
Things bright and green, things young and happy;
And I have gone upon my way
Sorrowful.

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« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2011, 12:32:16 PM »

Ach, I hadn't read all the Black Lantern/Brightest day/Lava Lamp/Next moth the cerise power ring stuff so I was unaware of this been the final fate of the original Superman. Whilst I'm sure given who he is they will use him again that's a disgraceful misuse of the character. As a huge fan of the Earth-2 universe I'm quite annoyed by this. I never bought the original rationale for the original Crisis on Infinite Earths that the parallel universes were too hard to understand. I was age 12 then and I loved them. I loved seeing the Golden Age Characters popping up from time to time and the original Batman and Catwoman and their daughter the Huntress.

As to Ditko I find his Mr. A and other creations quite seriously crackers at times. That character and the Question are after all the moderls a certain hero in Watchmen is based on. The Question of course been published by a mainstream comics company couldn't go very far with the whole objectivist thing but there are shades of it in there.

See, I like the Ditko Question far better than the later watered-down Zen-Buddhist approach of Dennis O'neil in the '80s, and was sad to see him as part of the Charleston-Ditko character purge of the mid 00's.  The new Question... uggh.  I like the character of Renee Montoya (always good to see the Batman Animated Series promoted to comic continuity) but not as the Question.

The best use of the character since DC bought out was in the Justice League Animated series, where they went with a compromise between Ditko, Rorschach, and Fox Mulder.  IMO his episodes were some of the best and he definitely had some of the best lines out of the run.  "The plastic tips at the ends of shoelaces are called 'aglets'.  Their true purpose is sinister."
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« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2011, 05:49:00 PM »

Ach, I hadn't read all the Black Lantern/Brightest day/Lava Lamp/Next moth the cerise power ring stuff so I was unaware of this been the final fate of the original Superman. Whilst I'm sure given who he is they will use him again that's a disgraceful misuse of the character. As a huge fan of the Earth-2 universe I'm quite annoyed by this. I never bought the original rationale for the original Crisis on Infinite Earths that the parallel universes were too hard to understand. I was age 12 then and I loved them. I loved seeing the Golden Age Characters popping up from time to time and the original Batman and Catwoman and their daughter the Huntress.

As to Ditko I find his Mr. A and other creations quite seriously crackers at times. That character and the Question are after all the moderls a certain hero in Watchmen is based on. The Question of course been published by a mainstream comics company couldn't go very far with the whole objectivist thing but there are shades of it in there.

See, I like the Ditko Question far better than the later watered-down Zen-Buddhist approach of Dennis O'neil in the '80s, and was sad to see him as part of the Charleston-Ditko character purge of the mid 00's.  The new Question... uggh.  I like the character of Renee Montoya (always good to see the Batman Animated Series promoted to comic continuity) but not as the Question.

The best use of the character since DC bought out was in the Justice League Animated series, where they went with a compromise between Ditko, Rorschach, and Fox Mulder.  IMO his episodes were some of the best and he definitely had some of the best lines out of the run.  "The plastic tips at the ends of shoelaces are called 'aglets'.  Their true purpose is sinister."

I certainly do not like Renee Montaya as the Question either. Although like you I'm fond of her as a character. Dennis O'Neill always brought the whole Zen Buddhist approach to things. I actually rather like his Question series of his but at the point I'd never read the original because it was way before my time, although I'd heard of it.

'The Charleston-Ditko' purge. I hate spelling Nazis but this accidental mistake has some strange mental images of dancers in 1920's costume a la flappers murdering DC Characters. Alas some of the Charlton character might have been better of in such a scenario.....
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And then my heart hath told me:
These will pass,
Will pass and change, will die and be no more,
Things bright and green, things young and happy;
And I have gone upon my way
Sorrowful.

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« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2011, 06:28:32 PM »

Ach, I hadn't read all the Black Lantern/Brightest day/Lava Lamp/Next moth the cerise power ring stuff so I was unaware of this been the final fate of the original Superman. Whilst I'm sure given who he is they will use him again that's a disgraceful misuse of the character. As a huge fan of the Earth-2 universe I'm quite annoyed by this. I never bought the original rationale for the original Crisis on Infinite Earths that the parallel universes were too hard to understand. I was age 12 then and I loved them. I loved seeing the Golden Age Characters popping up from time to time and the original Batman and Catwoman and their daughter the Huntress.

As to Ditko I find his Mr. A and other creations quite seriously crackers at times. That character and the Question are after all the moderls a certain hero in Watchmen is based on. The Question of course been published by a mainstream comics company couldn't go very far with the whole objectivist thing but there are shades of it in there.

See, I like the Ditko Question far better than the later watered-down Zen-Buddhist approach of Dennis O'neil in the '80s, and was sad to see him as part of the Charleston-Ditko character purge of the mid 00's.  The new Question... uggh.  I like the character of Renee Montoya (always good to see the Batman Animated Series promoted to comic continuity) but not as the Question.

The best use of the character since DC bought out was in the Justice League Animated series, where they went with a compromise between Ditko, Rorschach, and Fox Mulder.  IMO his episodes were some of the best and he definitely had some of the best lines out of the run.  "The plastic tips at the ends of shoelaces are called 'aglets'.  Their true purpose is sinister."


I certainly do not like Renee Montaya as the Question either. Although like you I'm fond of her as a character. Dennis O'Neill always brought the whole Zen Buddhist approach to things. I actually rather like his Question series of his but at the point I'd never read the original because it was way before my time, although I'd heard of it.

'The Charleston-Ditko' purge. I hate spelling Nazis but this accidental mistake has some strange mental images of dancers in 1920's costume a la flappers murdering DC Characters. Alas some of the Charlton character might have been better of in such a scenario.....

Did I type Charleston?  I must have had chewy candy on the brain at the time.  Although I think DC's Crisis series have now become about 1000% with your murderous flapper scenario inserted into every instance of horrific violence.
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« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2011, 10:53:35 AM »

I see we think on the same wavelength. Why they didn't Grant Morrison or someone to write the whole Identity Crisis mess I don't know. The way they treated  Sue Dibny appalled me. One of the few characters to have a stable and happy marriage and to be presented over many years as a likeble character. People complained about the old Justic League International series but I felt that was a thousand times better written than this stuff which just smacked of that most annoying idea of all, 'mature' superhero comics.
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And then my heart hath told me:
These will pass,
Will pass and change, will die and be no more,
Things bright and green, things young and happy;
And I have gone upon my way
Sorrowful.

'The Wayfarer' Pádraig Anraí Mac Piarais
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