Author Topic: Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself  (Read 25215 times)

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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #90 on: June 01, 2004, 01:38:40 PM »
During this scandal in the Roman Catholic Church, I have become very, very cautious about pointing fingers at the Roman Catholic Church. All we Orthodox have to do is read just a little of our own history to know that we too have our problems, scandals, outrages, and cover-ups.  What amazes me are the number of Orthodox that think celibacy is the CAUSE of all Rome's problems!  Let us just look at our own Orthodox Church and realize that having married clergy does not eliminate problems or scandals, nor does it create perfection.  I often tell my Roman Catholic friends, if you think that having married priests will solve all your problems, look at us.

Offline Edwin

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #91 on: June 01, 2004, 02:17:14 PM »
:Fr Andrew Greeley, a liberal dissenter about some things who'd also like to drop that rule,:

Actually, Fr. Greeley favors priestly celibacy. Don't assume that because he is a "liberal dissenter about some things" (which is certainly true) he therefore fits a stereotype.

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Offline The young fogey

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #92 on: June 01, 2004, 02:27:59 PM »
Quote
Actually, Fr. Greeley favors priestly celibacy. Don't assume that because he is a "liberal dissenter about some things" (which is certainly true) he therefore fits a stereotype.

I've read his books - from the way he rhaposodizes about priests having affairs with women naturally I concluded he wanted to change the rule.

Or do you mean he favours keeping the rule literally, that RC priests should be unmarried, while at the same time 'finding themselves' by having rapturous intercourse with convenient women the way they do in his fiction?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2004, 02:28:53 PM by Serge »
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Offline Schultz

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #93 on: June 01, 2004, 02:38:02 PM »
I do know that Father Greeley has written a number of articles debunking the claim that celibacy is the reason for the pedo/ephebophile scandal in the Roman Catholic Church.  Every article I've seen him write re: that topic praises priestly celibacy.  

BTW, I'm no fan of his books.  Trite romantic garbage, AFAIC.
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Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #94 on: June 01, 2004, 06:22:36 PM »
Homosexuals should not be priests.

I strongly disagree!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a homosexual being a priest, as long as he is not active and not even considering being active. If a homosexual does not choose to live the homosexual lifestyle, and sees the great sin in homesexual behavior and does not wish to engage in that most sinful behavior, and if God calls them to the priesthood....I see no problem in homosexuals becoming priests.

Homosexuality is not a choice, and if God calls these men to the priesthood, and they are truly living a chaste a pure life, where is the problem?!

I understand that there are fears involved, and this would truly have to be worked out on a one to one basis between the individual and his bishop, but to ban all homosexuals from the priesthood, reagardless of their faith and their calling, is absurd!

Just my opinion.....
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Offline Doubting Thomas

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #95 on: June 01, 2004, 07:02:46 PM »
Homosexuality is not a choice, and if God calls these men to the priesthood, and they are truly living a chaste a pure life, where is the problem?!


Right--homosexuality is a series of choices.  It is a learned behaviour which becomes "hard-wired" in the brain (which is why change is so difficult).  But what is impossible with men, is possible by God's grace. An example is a friend of mine who was in that lifestyle for about 12 or so years and now is no longer involved in it.   And even if the desires remain a struggle for some of them throughout their lives, I agree that by God's mercy and grace they can live "chaste" lives.
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Offline Rho

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2004, 07:59:09 AM »
One must be careful, though, about issuing a blanket endorsement to homosexuals for the priesthood, even when they are non-practicing.  
Homosexuality involves alot more than just attraction to the same sex - at the core it's very possibly a gender-identity issue.
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Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #97 on: June 03, 2004, 04:17:18 PM »
Right--homosexuality is a series of choices.  It is a learned behaviour which becomes "hard-wired" in the brain (which is why change is so difficult).  But what is impossible with men, is possible by God's grace. An example is a friend of mine who was in that lifestyle for about 12 or so years and now is no longer involved in it.   And even if the desires remain a struggle for some of them throughout their lives, I agree that by God's mercy and grace they can live "chaste" lives.

Being a homosexual is not a choice. Whether born with it or not, men and women who are really homosexuals did not choose to be homosexuals. There is no choice there, as you said there is a lot more to homosexuality than just being attracted to members of the same sex, they can't just wake up and decide not to be hgomosexual. But homosexuals do have the choice to live a pure life, it isn't going to be easy, but it is possible with the grace of God.

As I said in my original post this whole issue would have to be worked out on a one to one basis between the homosexual and his Bishop. We can not say all homosexuals can not priests, nor can we say all homosexuals if they don't have sex can be priests, it is a issue that with the grace of God must worked out with years of prayer and guidance from a good spritual father.
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Offline Doubting Thomas

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #98 on: June 03, 2004, 05:12:28 PM »
Being a homosexual is not a choice. [Whether born with it or not, men and women who are really homosexuals did not choose to be homosexuals. There is no choice there, as you said there is a lot more to homosexuality than just being attracted to members of the same sex, they can't just wake up and decide not to be hgomosexual.
They can change.  Therefore, even the homosexual orientation is not something they have to be stuck with.  Like I said, it is a learned behaviour/orientation.  While no one wakes up one day and thinks, "Gee, I've decided to be a homosexual", human volition is certainly involved in obsessing over, acting on, and reinforcing certain thoughts, desires, and behavior (just like any addictive sin when you think about it).  This is when it becomes "hard-wired", so to speak, making change very difficult.  However, even at this point the brain/CNS still has a degree of plasticity that allows for change.  Ultimately, however, this change needs to be effected spiritually.  People by God's grace who have been involved in homosexuality have been radically changed, and some of these have entered into meaningful heterosexual marriages.
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Offline Schultz

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #99 on: June 03, 2004, 05:16:24 PM »
I disagree, my dear Thomas, but just a bit.

Some can change.  Heck, I'll even go as far to say most.  But everyone with a homosexual orientation cannot just go get married and be all happy for the rest of their lives.  They will struggle with their sexuality until they die.  Does this mean they have to submit to it?  No, of course not, but they will struggle.
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Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #100 on: June 03, 2004, 05:35:32 PM »
Some homosexuals do "change", but the vast majority die homosexuals. Homosexuality is not something that can just be changed if you lead a religious and chaste life. Yes, by the grace of God, there are miracles, and some men and women change from being homosexual to heterosexual, but this is very rare, and to say it happens all of the time or that it should, is truly an insult to those who have spent their whole lives fighting homosexuality, wanting nothing more than to be a normal heterosexual.

Marriage or a holy life doesn't automaticaly transform a homosexual into a heterosexual. Homosexuality is a long and difficult struggle, that isn't gotten rid of just by faith in Jesus Christ. For many it is a God given cross to bare, that isn't meant to be cured.
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Brendan03

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #101 on: June 03, 2004, 05:40:57 PM »
I agree with both Ben and Schultz.  For some homosexuals it is truly not a choice, it appears to be hardwired from an early age.  For others, it is more of a chosen behavior, however ... I have met more than one person who claims she now prefers to date other women because she is sick and tired of the antics of men, for example, and that is a chosen behavior rather than a hard-wired one.  I think it is hard to generalize about people who hve homosexual behaviors.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 05:41:25 PM by Brendan03 »
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Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #102 on: June 03, 2004, 05:43:53 PM »
It is true that there are those who engage in homosexual behavior but aren't homosexuals. We see that this is a comon trend amoung many young single women sick of men. This is of course a choice, but when you talk about real homosexuals that are sexually attracted to members of the same sex, and not the opposite sex, and have been this way as long as they could remember, you have a totally different situation, that just can't be changed overnight, if ever.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 05:45:43 PM by Ben »
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Brendan03

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #103 on: June 03, 2004, 05:46:44 PM »
Ben right, but it is the behavior that is sinful.  So at least some who are committing that particular sin are people who have perhaps an easier choice at choosing that activated orientation than others do.  And, to the point made by another poster above, over time that initial choice to "try out" homosexual behavior may lead to a more hardened orientation, such that one's orientation shifts more towards homosexual.  I think it is just hard to generalize here.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 05:47:20 PM by Brendan03 »
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Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #104 on: June 03, 2004, 05:51:12 PM »
Yes it is very difficult to generalize, this is why we can't just say all homosexuals shouln't be priests. Some homosexuals have always been attracted to members of the same sex, as long as they can remember. Others engage in homosexual behavior to do something new or different. And others started out just trying it, and ending up prefering it to heterosexual relationships. Each case is different, and all homosexuals, and homosexuality in general, really can't be addresed with one huge blanket judgement.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 05:51:28 PM by Ben »
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Ebor

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #105 on: June 03, 2004, 06:26:53 PM »
All people obsess about is sex and anti-Catholicism! :)

Naw, Frobie.  I obsess about History and the Lord of the Rings.  ;D

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Offline Doubting Thomas

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #106 on: June 03, 2004, 06:48:12 PM »
I disagree, my dear Thomas, but just a bit.

Some can change.  Heck, I'll even go as far to say most.  But everyone with a homosexual orientation cannot just go get married and be all happy for the rest of their lives.  They will struggle with their sexuality until they die.  Does this mean they have to submit to it?  No, of course not, but they will struggle.

I agree with everything you wrote here.  It certainly wasn't my intent to imply all homosexuals could make such a radical change to the point they can marry (but I suppose anything is possible with God :)), nor to imply that there are none that have to struggle with their sexuality until they die despite their heart's desire to repent.

I also agree that one can't generalize about homosexuality.  I've actuality read that it might be more correct to think in terms of "homosexualities" since it's manifestations are not homogeneous.
At any rate, one can resist the act by the grace of God even if one struggles with the orientation for most of his life.
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Offline Brendan03

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #107 on: June 04, 2004, 08:21:20 AM »
Just a related letter to the editor from today's NYT:


Cardinal Law's New Job

Published: June 4, 2004

To the Editor:

When I read about Cardinal Bernard F. Law's appointment as archpriest of St. Mary Major Basilica in Rome, I didn't know whether to laugh, cry or give up my collar (news article, May 28).

There are priests who are guilty of a single incident of misconduct 20 or more years ago. As a result, they have been permanently stripped of their priestly faculties; they cannot wear a collar or present themselves as priests. Having no other means of support, they are allowed to live in their communities and contribute what they can by answering phones and stuffing envelopes.

Bernard Law, on the other hand, was archbishop of Boston when hundreds of allegations of abuse were made. He resigned reluctantly. He is now honored with a prestigious appointment. This is a slap in the face not only to victims of abuse but also to all Catholics, who have suffered the humiliation of this scandal.

Will this outrageous act finally motivate us to demand accountability from Roman officials and to confront the obvious disdain with which they view the American church?

(Rev.) CHARLES E. BOUCHARD
St. Louis, May 28, 2004
The writer is president of the Aquinas Institute of Theology.

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Offline TomS

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #108 on: June 04, 2004, 08:24:18 AM »
He's spitting into the wind.

Offline Fr. David

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #109 on: June 04, 2004, 09:06:36 AM »
Well, when you've got nothing left to lose, might as well get a little dirty.  :-";"xx
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Offline Nacho

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #110 on: June 04, 2004, 02:05:36 PM »
Quote
Bernard Law, on the other hand, was archbishop of Boston when hundreds of allegations of abuse were made. He resigned reluctantly. He is now honored with a prestigious appointment. This is a slap in the face not only to victims of abuse but also to all Catholics, who have suffered the humiliation of this scandal.

Vary dissapointing indeed. It seems Rome has some good days on one hand, but stuff like this sets them way back. Could you have imagined the Apostle Paul or Peter handling this situation like this???This kind of garbage would have never been permitted in the first place to go on for so long in a different place & time in the Church.
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Offline Schultz

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #111 on: June 04, 2004, 02:07:11 PM »
I can surely imagine St. Nicholas literally beating Cardinal Law up!
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Offline Jakub

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #112 on: June 04, 2004, 02:26:32 PM »
IMO,

The "good"Cardinal should be reassigned to a monastery period.

james
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Offline TomS

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #113 on: June 04, 2004, 02:32:07 PM »
The "good" Cardinal should be reassigned to a monastery period.

Yes. And the only people allowed to visit his cell should be realtives of the victims of those Priests he knowingly reassigned. Yes. That would be good.

Offline Amadeus

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #114 on: June 04, 2004, 03:35:42 PM »
Dear All:

I am probably one of the few, or quite possibly the only one, who has not been perturbed by the outcome in the disposition of Cardinal Law.

Legally:

The non-indictment of Cardinal Law by the Attorney General of Massachussetts attests to the insufficiency of evidence to mount a successful conviction of any criminal wrongdoing on the part of the Archbishop of Boston.

If the Cardinal were an accessory during the commission of the sexual abuses, he could have been indicted even as a co-principal. But he was not. He was not there actually present during the commission of those priestly crimes. He was not a participant, active or passive.

At best, Cardinal Law was an accessory afterthe fact. But to implicate him to the crime as such, he must be proven to have known the fact that a certain priest is committing/has committed a crime during re-assignments. Reasonable diligence is required to ascertain such facts and the Cardinal reasonably relied on the advice of his auxilliaries that neither records of Church tribunals nor of the civilian courts showed "conviction" or "indictment" of the priests being re-assigned.

The legal principle of "respondeat superior" does not apply here, contrary to some suggestions aired in the media. For the principle to apply, i.e., the damage or liability done or incurred by the subordinate (the "agent") can be attributed under law to the superior (the "principal"), the "act" of the subordinate or agent complained of must be, or have been, authorized or, at least, by defininition, is/was within the normal activities of the subordinate.

Morally:

As the ordinary of the Archdiocese of Boston, Cardinal Law failed miserably in steering the clergy in an exemplary way. Clearly, there was a failure of leadership, which also led to the "suffering" of the laity. He was so detached from reality and he, therefore, deserved to be forced out of his stewardship.

His recall to Rome should not be a surprise. All Cardinals are required to reside and live in Rome, unless you are also a diocesan Bishop.

His Eminence is/was both a diocesan bishop (a Metropolitan Archbishop) AND a Cardinal, a title he was bestowed one year after he was appointed Archbishop of Boston. As such Cardinal, he is considered under (Catholic) Canon Law as a member of the clergy of the Diocese of Rome, over which the Pope, as Bishop of Rome, presides. Losing his Archbishopric position precipitated his "going home" to his canonical jurisdiction in Rome.

But should he been appointed as an Archpriest of  the Basilica of St. Mary Major? He has his "titular" Church in Rome already, in addition to this "real" appointment as Archpriest, from which an 82-year old Italian Cardinal just retired. One of his duties as Archpriest is to celebrate the Holy Mass (I think weekly) at the Basilica on behalf of the Pope.

I don't know, but the Pope has made such an appointment.

Amado