Author Topic: Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself  (Read 24502 times)

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Offline Nacho

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Wow!!!! I guess these guys still don't get it. Look at what they just did over at the Vatican, what a joke...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121069,00.html


VATICAN CITY — Pope John Paul II (search) on Thursday gave Cardinal Bernard F. Law (search) an official position in Rome, naming the former Boston archbishop who resigned in the sex abuse scandal as head of a basilica.
 
Law will have the title archpriest of St. Mary Major Basilica, a largely ceremonial post often given to retired prelates.

The 72-year-old Law resigned Dec. 13, 2002, to quell an outcry over his handling of sex abuseal crisis.

He moved from Boston and became resident chaplain at a convent in Maryland, although he retained his membership on nine Vatican (search) congregations and councils, traveling frequently to Rome. He attended a number of events during celebrations for John Paul's 25th anniversary as pontiff in October.

An archpriest is in charge of administration in a basilica, and has ceremonial functions. At St. Mary Major in downtown Rome, near the city's main railroad station, he succeeds 82-year-old Italian Cardinal Carlo Furno.

Boston attorney Mitchell Garabedian, who represents more than 130 alleged victims of sexual abuse by priests, said the Vatican was sending a bad message by giving Law a high profile new job.

"He apparently is being transferred to a position that is comfortable and appears to be some sort of reward," Garabedian said. "The Vatican either doesn't understand the problem of clergy sex abuse, or it doesn't care. That shows by this new prestigious post given to Cardinal Law."

The Boston Archdiocese was at the center of the national clergy sex abuse scandal following the release of church documents revealing that church leaders shuffled accused priests from parish to parish instead of removing them from ministry.

Law himself was named in hundreds of lawsuits accusing him of failing to protect children from known child molesters. Ten months after his departure, Law's successor, Archbishop Sean P. O'Malley, helped to broker an $85 million settlement agreement with more than 550 victims of clergy sex abuse.

The Rev. Christopher Coyne, a spokesman for the Boston Archdiocese, did not immediately return calls seeking comment.

After becoming head of the nation's fourth-largest archdiocese in 1984, Law rose to become one of the pope's closest American advisers. Even after his resignation as archbishop of Boston, he retained the title of cardinal, leaving open the possibility that he could take another church post and retaining the right to vote in papal elections until he turns 80.

St. Mary Major is one of four basilicas under direct Vatican jurisdiction. It has an international staff of priests for the many tourists who visit the city.

No one answered the telephone at the basilica's offices on Thursday.
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Offline Schultz

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2004, 04:41:19 PM »
WTF?!

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Offline spartacus

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2004, 05:15:28 PM »

VATICAN CITY — Pope John Paul II (search) on Thursday gave Cardinal Bernard F. Law (search) an official position in Rome, naming the former Boston archbishop who resigned in the sex abuse scandal as head of a basilica.

Perhaps they wanted him out of the country to avoid the possibility of future prosecution and/or more civil lawsuits against him personally.

What he did was criminal facilitation of the sexual abuse of a minor and he belongs in prison!

Offline JoeZollars

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2004, 05:18:39 PM »
hmm an old maxim comes to mind.  'Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.'

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Offline theodore

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2004, 06:58:59 PM »
I would agree with Spartacus about the reason behind assigning Cardinal Law to a parish in Rome, which as the article said, is a largely ceremonial position.  I wouldn't call being assigned to that parish in Rome a reward.  It's more like a punishment, as Cardinal Law's power and credibility are greatly reduced in the wake of this scandal.  He has essentially been put out to pasture, in a position where he can't cause any more problems.  Assigning Cardinal Law to live out the rest of his life as a monastic would probably have been a better assignment.

Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2004, 07:30:59 PM »
Quote
Law will have the title archpriest of St. Mary Major Basilica, a largely ceremonial post often given to retired prelates.

 :'( My favorite church in the entire world, the first Catholic church I ever entered....*sigh*
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Nacho

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2004, 03:32:23 AM »
Quote
I would agree with Spartacus about the reason behind assigning Cardinal Law to a parish in Rome, which as the article said, is a largely ceremonial position.  I wouldn't call being assigned to that parish in Rome a reward.  It's more like a punishment, as Cardinal Law's power and credibility are greatly reduced in the wake of this scandal.  He has essentially been put out to pasture, in a position where he can't cause any more problems.  Assigning Cardinal Law to live out the rest of his life as a monastic would probably have been a better assignment.

What your saying may be true, but this is a HUGE PR blunder for the RC because it does in fact look like a promotion for Cardinal Law to most outsiders. This guy really deserves to be in jail though, I'm shocked that he was not forced to resign in the first place.
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

Offline ByzantineSerb

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2004, 08:12:29 AM »
Hopefully the Vatican will have a press conference to clear it up (it's no lil' secret to "Cdl." Law that he is being "jailed" by the Pope.
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Offline TomS

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2004, 08:19:32 AM »
But the RCC is infallible.  ;)

Main Entry: in-+fal-+li-+ble
Pronunciation: (")in-'fa-l&-b&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin infallibilis, from Latin in- + Late Latin fallibilis fallible

1 : incapable of error : UNERRING <an infallible memory>

2 : not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint : CERTAIN <an infallible remedy>

3 : incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2004, 08:20:19 AM »
Friends,

In effect Cardinal Law has been confined to Rome because the archpriests of the major basilica's are responsible for celebrating Mass in those basilicas.

As for protecting him there was no need as he had that the day he became a cardinal.  Cardinals have the diplomatic status of princes of the royal blood *(as ratified by the Versailles Treaty) which means they have diplomatic immunity and cannot be tried or imprisoned by anybody but the Pope.

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Offline ByzantineSerb

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2004, 08:29:27 AM »
It's not in the context of what us 'Papists' would describe as infallible, Tom.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2004, 08:29:47 AM by ByzantineSerb »
If we live as people of God, there will be room for all nations in the Balkans and in the world. If we liken ourselves to Cain who killed his brother Abel, then the entire earth will be too small even for two people. The Lord Jesus Christ teaches us to be

Offline TomS

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2004, 08:35:09 AM »
It's not in the context of what us 'Papists' would describe as infallible, Tom.

Why of course not. Silly of me to think that's what it meant.  


Offline Fr. David

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2004, 09:08:51 AM »
Why of course not. Silly of me to think that's what it meant.  

Easy, TomΣ...

I think, after reading this, there will always be (in my mind) the souls of those victimized children wandering around that basilica, accusing.
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Offline Rho

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2004, 10:21:12 AM »
Fellow sharers in complete disbelief at the Vatican's density...

I just finished a more or less interesting book:
_Vows of Silence_ by Jason Berry and Gerald Renner

Talks all about this.  Does get repetitive though (as well as redundant) - Priest molests a child, Rome covers it up, priest molests a child, Rome covers it up, priest molests a child, Rome covers it up, priest molests a child, Rome covers it up, priest molests a child, Rome covers it up, etc.
"I have taken my good deeds and my bad deeds and thrown them together in a heap. Then I have fled from both of them to Christ, and in Him I have peace." --David Dickson

Matthew 9:13 - Who is the sinner if not I?

Offline Linus7

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2004, 10:27:39 AM »
The real problem is that sometime in the 1950s, I believe, the RC priesthood began to be infiltrated by homosexuals. Prior to that time, the RCC would boot out of seminary any young man whom it suspected of homosexuality, practicing or not.

Many homosexuals are now in positions of power within the RCC, and many of them are parish priests.

As a consequence, the RCC is involved in a life or death struggle with the devil.

Only radical surgery will save the patient.

Does the Vatican know that?
The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
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Offline Schultz

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2004, 10:32:27 AM »
Quote
hey have diplomatic immunity and cannot be tried or imprisoned by anybody but the Pope.

That's right.  I forgot about that entirely.  Cardinal Law is no longer a citizen of the United States and is, in effect, just a diplomat of the Vatican.  Cardinals turn in their passport when they become Princes of the Church and get new ones.

I still think he should have been put in a monastery in the desert somewhere, but what Pedro says may be true as well.  No matter where he is, the ghosts of the past will most likely follow him.  I'm reminded of the way Judas was portrayed right before his suicide in The Passion of the Christ.

Regardless, may God have mercy on his soul.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2004, 11:03:47 AM »
Thank you, Deacon Lance, for pointing out the diplomatic immunity status here. It makes sense, but I'd never realized that fact.

At the risk of being unpopular here, I really feel some are in a feeding-frenzy to condemn the Roman Catholic Church. Could they have handled these problems better? Most assuredly. And we Orthodox Catholics are not immune from the same or similar problem I would imagine.
But we, here, seem not to understand the nature of the brotherhood of the episcopacy. Heeding Christ's command to His Apostles, the churches with valid apostolic succession would of course strive to care for a fallen brother, one in error or in need.
Not to punish, not to  condemn, but to love, aid, and correct.
Yes, the RCC bears much here. I still pray for all of the victims of abuse - especially the  children but also for the perpetrators who were tempted into great sin.
Can we really do less?

Demetri

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Offline Linus7

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2004, 11:08:09 AM »
Thank you, Deacon Lance, for pointing out the diplomatic immunity status here. It makes sense, but I'd never realized that fact.

At the risk of being unpopular here, I really feel some are in a feeding-frenzy to condemn the Roman Catholic Church. Could they have handled these problems better? Most assuredly. And we Orthodox Catholics are not immune from the same or similar problem I would imagine.
But we, here, seem not to understand the nature of the brotherhood of the episcopacy. Heeding Christ's command to His Apostles, the churches with valid apostolic succession would of course strive to care for a fallen brother, one in error or in need.
Not to punish, not to  condemn, but to love, aid, and correct.
Yes, the RCC bears much here. I still pray for all of the victims of abuse - especially the  children but also for the perpetrators who were tempted into great sin.
Can we really do less?

Demetri



Great post, Demetri. I agree.

I wonder about something, though.

When we speak of "children" having been abused, just what do we mean?

It is my understanding that by far most of the victims were adolescent boys - technically or legally children, but not really.

It seems to me that by accusing these offenders of pedophilia we are masking what has really occurred in the RCC: not an invasion of pedophiles but of homosexuals.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2004, 11:20:33 AM »
I guess I'm getting so old everyone seems a child to me, Linus. My wife informed me, again, last night that I was on the threshhold of "geezerhood".
Sin is sin. We seem to rank them somehow; I'm not sure about Christ's view, however.

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Offline Jakub

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2004, 11:43:05 AM »
 Demetri,

Welcome to geezerhood, I'm sitting in front of the PC with a heating pad on the my back, struck with spasms Tuesday after mowing the lawns & attempting to lift my youngest grandson Michael from a rocker swing.

Like that term geezerhood, probably use it all day.

james,  in the desert, temporarily :P out of service
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Offline TomS

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2004, 12:57:41 PM »
At the risk of being unpopular here, I really feel some are in a feeding-frenzy to condemn the Roman Catholic Church.

If this was a secular boys school which knowingly hired homosexual teachers and support staff, was run by a Headmaster who knew (or heard rumors) that certain teachers were molesting the pupils, and whose "plan of action" to deal with this was either feigning ignorance or simply transfering the teacher to another part of the campus.

What would be your reaction?

Why should we treeat the RCC any different? They SHOULD be held to an even HIGHER standard!

I am sick to DEATH of people applying DIFFERENT standards because it is the "Roman Catholic Church". Can't you see that it is a den of vipers?


Offline Jennifer

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2004, 01:01:07 PM »
The real problem is that sometime in the 1950s, I believe, the RC priesthood began to be infiltrated by homosexuals. Prior to that time, the RCC would boot out of seminary any young man whom it suspected of homosexuality, practicing or not.

Many homosexuals are now in positions of power within the RCC, and many of them are parish priests.

As a consequence, the RCC is involved in a life or death struggle with the devil.

Only radical surgery will save the patient.

Does the Vatican know that?

I once asked a very good conservative priest who I trust completely whether it's true that there are "many" RC homosexual priests.  He's been a priest for 25 years in one of the largest and most screwed up dioceses in the country.  He said that in his experience there aren't that many gay priests.  Even in the very screwed up diocese where he was essentially driven from because he's too conservative/traditional.

Offline Jennifer

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2004, 01:07:44 PM »
If this was a secular boys school which knowingly hired homosexual teachers and support staff, was run by a Headmaster who knew (or heard rumors) that certain teachers were molesting the pupils, and whose "plan of action" to deal with this was either feigning ignorance or simply transfering the teacher to another part of the campus.

What would be your reaction?

Why should we treeat the RCC any different? They SHOULD be held to an even HIGHER standard!

I am sick to DEATH of people applying DIFFERENT standards because it is the "Roman Catholic Church". Can't you see that it is a den of vipers?



The RCC's response was the same response as that of every other organization.  Let's remember that it was only in the early 1980's that society began to even discuss sexual abuse of children.  

I think another thing we need to remember is that the bishops often took the advice of mental health professionals who believed at the time that it was possible to cure a sexual predator.  

As others have correctly pointed out, this is essentially about homosexuality and the time when most of these incidents took place was also when there was a move afoot in the psychiatric community to see homosexuality as normal instead of a psychiatric condition.  

Clearly they were wrong but they were doing what the 'experts' told them to do.  And let's not forget that society told them to 'trust' the 'experts.'  

BTW, those of us who are practicing Catholics would take offense at your charge that the RCC is a "den of vipers."

Offline Jakub

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2004, 01:20:03 PM »
Den of vipers is not acceptable description of the RCC.

Though there are many with problems.

Tom, you attack Roman Catholics 99% of the time, there are some choice words I could say, but you condem yourself.

james
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Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline Nacho

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2004, 01:47:22 PM »
What I don't understand is why the RCC never got rid of it's priest whe were causing all these problems. Instead, they look the other way & supported these priest by shipping them to different diocese or put them in other positions in the church.

You need to ask yourself what would the Apostles or the Bishops of the early church have done with these so called priest?? I think they would have been thrown out on thier Kahunas. I think they deserve what's coming to them with the millions of dollars they have to pay for the damages done. It might take them a long time to recover all that money considering that most Catholics only throw a few bucks in the tithing basket.
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Offline Jennifer

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2004, 02:01:27 PM »
Clearly the Apostles would have done the right thing.  They're all saints.  However, not all of the early bishops were saints and certainly not all the bishops throughout history were saints.  Wasn't it St. John Chrysostomon (sp? - never can remember how to spell his name) who said that the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.  

It's entirely too simplistic to suggest this is a modern problem.  Jerk idiot bishops have existed since the beginning and will always be with us unfortunately.  There is always a mentality in organizations to cover up the mistakes of members.  

Frankly what happened in the American RCC has happened throughout the history of the Church.  What has changed is that society is now receptive to hearing about sexual abuse and society is no longer dominated by the Church.  A bishop in 1500 would done the same thing as Cardinal Law.  

As for "they" deserving what's "coming to them."  Who do you mean by "they?"  They just closed about a fifth of the parishes in the Boston Archdiocese to raise money to pay the victims.  Did the parishioners losing their home parish "deserve" what's "coming to them?"  What about the parents who have to pay more for a Catholic education?  Or the poor who can't get services from the dioceses?  The bishops screwed up, certainly and the abusing priests deserved to be punished but do the rest of us deserve what's "coming to us?"  

BTW, they're not "so called priests."  They're valid priests in the RCC regardless of what they've done.  We (RCs) don't believe that a priest can ever lose his 'priest-hood.'

Offline Schultz

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2004, 02:04:47 PM »
My spiritual father told me one time about how things were done in the pre-Vatican II seminaries that might help explain how things got out of control.  It's not the only answer or explanation, but it does shed light on why these priests think like they do.  It's not an excuse, mind you, and I'm not trying to paint it as such.

He told us first how many seminarians were, in fact, in minor-seminaries before going to major-seminary to begin their clerical studies in earnest.  These minor-seminaries were, of course, all male and due to their very nature, the students had very little contact with females.  Even in all-boy prep schools, the older boys do get to see girls at the occasional inter-school dance or whatnot.  These boys also had their lives very regimented.  They were told when to eat, when to study, when to sleep, when to go to the bathroom, etc.  

Upon entering major-seminary, it was more of the same.  Only now, with puberty is in full swing.  But still, one's life is exceptionally regimented.  There really is little time for oneself, even for private prayer.  Doors in the dorms are not allowed to be closed except at night during sleep and there is next to no privacy.  Think about when you were a teenager.  There were times when you just wanted to be left alone, even for a few minutes.  And no, I'm not talking about "those" times, either.

In short, you have a boy, who, from about the age of 12 or 13, is constantly in the companionship of other boys and men until the age of 24 or so, when he is ordained.  For those twelve years, every single aspect of his life is controlled.  Even if he went to another seminary mid-study, there would be no change except for venue.  Then, he is free.  But he doesn't know what that freedom really is.  And all he really knows who to relate to are boys and young men.  Does one realize the loneliness such a person can feel once he's "let loose" in the world, especially a world that was changing so rapidly as mid-20th century America?

He's a sick, screwed up individual, unless he came through the whole process with a strong mind and a strong family.

Again, not an excuse, but a thought, which I probably haven't conveyed very well.

Of course, the bishops looking the other way once they became aware of an individual priest's actions is just as, if not more, horrendous.  People pi$$ and moan about Vatican II, but the seminary system was definitely in need of an overhaul.  It does, however, seem to have gone the complete opposite way, which is just as bad.  As with most things, a good dea of something (reform) became perverted by those with their own agenda.  But I digress...
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Offline Amadeus

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2004, 02:08:28 PM »
Ahhh, the "perfect" Church!

Let the sinless cast the first stone!

http://www.pokrov.org/index.html

Amado

Offline Amadeus

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2004, 02:17:08 PM »
As far as the Catholic Church (in the U.S.) is doing, please take time to refer to:

http://www.usccb.org/ocyp/eventsnews.htm

How about your Church?

Amado

Offline spartacus

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2004, 02:17:46 PM »
I once asked a very good conservative priest who I trust completely whether it's true that there are "many" RC homosexual priests.  He's been a priest for 25 years in one of the largest and most screwed up dioceses in the country.  He said that in his experience there aren't that many gay priests.  Even in the very screwed up diocese where he was essentially driven from because he's too conservative/traditional.  

Then your "good conservative priest" was either naiive or lying to you. Even the RCC commissioned a study and published finding that indicated about half of their priest are gay, the seminaries are overrun with homosexuals...and many of these men are sexually active.

The priest who ran the RC parish where my wife and I were married told us of numerous stories of his days in the seminary when he was proposition ed for homosexual sex. Our two family members who are also RC priests had stories of their own.

Although the RCC migh tnot be a "den of vipers" it is howver by its own admission tainted and soiled with Satan's unholy smoke.

Offline Amadeus

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2004, 02:25:28 PM »
Spartacus:

You said:

________________________________________________

Even the RCC commissioned a study and published finding that indicated about half of their priest are gay, the seminaries are overrun with homosexuals...and many of these men are sexually active.
________________________________________________

Can you please support your allegation by giving us the "when and where" this was done and how we can access an offical copy of the results?

Amado

Offline spartacus

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2004, 02:28:45 PM »
As far as the Catholic Church (in the U.S.) is doing, please take time to refer to:

http://www.usccb.org/ocyp/eventsnews.htm

How about your Church?

Amado

Again defending the indefensible....How about my Church?

My Orthodox Parish and Diocese has no sex scandals.

In my old RC Diocese well...Let's see:

A priest from my old parish was just sentenced for sexually abusing teenage parishioners.

The Diocese was just ordered by an Appellate court to release documents suspected to show the convicted priest was re-assigned to another parsih after confessing his crimes.

Also in my old parish the chorul director was recently charged with the brutal murder of his live-in homosexual mentally- challenged boyfriend.

Oh and that's just this last month....and just from my old RC parish....[u]Palease[/u]! The priests victims have yet to receive an apology not only for the crimes but for innuendo among the clergy and leading parishioners that they were making everything up. When parishioners expressed outrage ....the lay leaders in the Parish turned against the wounded souls with indignation "How dare they?" was the general response. Circling the wagons I guess.

You know for many months before I left the RCC I talked to my parish priest and wrote him and the Diocese making one simple suggestion....

How about just asking the Parishes to forgive the priests?...Have the priests humble themselvs before the parishes and just ask them for forgiveness. Ask to be forgiven for the times they have not been the priests we needed, for when they feel the Church has fallen short of what was expected of it For all the times they could not be there for us or be the priests we needed.

From the responses I did finally receive after I left, it was apparent they thought they would have to admit wrongdoing in order to ask to be forgiven -- obviously an opinion from men who have never been married. :D
« Last Edit: May 28, 2004, 02:33:37 PM by spartacus »

Offline Jakub

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2004, 02:31:52 PM »
Spartacus,

I can accept your statement, but I think there are sexual sinners in most Churches but they are hidden by themselves or the brotherhood.

I cannot label a certain flock for the sins of a few. None of us are without some form of sin.

I dare not point my finger at any of my brethern, but will pray for them.

james
An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline Amadeus

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2004, 02:33:06 PM »
Spartacus:

You missed the drift!

Amado

Offline spartacus

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2004, 02:52:49 PM »
Spartacus:

You missed the drift!

Amado

I think you just don't get it.

Offline spartacus

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2004, 02:54:31 PM »
Spartacus,

I can accept your statement, but I think there are sexual sinners in most Churches but they are hidden by themselves or the brotherhood.

I cannot label a certain flock for the sins of a few. None of us are without some form of sin.

I dare not point my finger at any of my brethern, but will pray for them.

james

The RCC is an institution. It sets itself up to be such. Itis an institution made of humans and so has human failings. Let's please not confuse discernment with judgement.

Offline Elisha

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2004, 03:02:23 PM »
Ahhh, the "perfect" Church!

Let the sinless cast the first stone!

http://www.pokrov.org/index.html

Amado

Amado,

This site doesn't have 100% credibility.  Sure, many of the listings are true, but the site owner has made it her personal vendetta to weed out abuse, even look for things that just aren't there or post unfounded gossip.

Two points (about the link and the topic):
1) consider the source of the link
2) The problems we have pale in comparison to those in the RCC (wrt to abuse, etc.)

Offline Amadeus

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2004, 03:20:35 PM »
Elisha:

The comparative number of sexual abuses is definitely larger in the RCC because the RCC is much larger than the OC here in the U.S.

And the Catholic Church admits to these occurrences without hiding behind closed doors.  In the U.S., I referenced above WHAT IS BEING DONE by the USCCB.

But that is begging the question, isn't it?

What is unbelievable is that Orthodox posters seem to advance the notion that these indiscretions are not happening in the Orthodox Church[es] (or in any other religious denominations). Or, at least, that sexual abuse will never happen in the "perfect" Church=Orthodox Church.

Amado

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2004, 03:22:14 PM »
My personal take on this subject is that after VatII, for whatever reason saw a progressive exodus of qualified young men from the priesthood.  The RCC seeing this dramatic decline in applicants for the priesthood relaxed their entrance requirements and consequently allowed just about anyone who wanted to become a seminarian.  I think the RCC is getting their act together to better screen those who may show tendencies of homosexuality or pediphelia.  If they dont this could permanently damage the image of the RCC here in the USA.  What they dont need is more of the status quo.

JoeS   8)


Offline TomS

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2004, 03:27:10 PM »
Ahhh, the "perfect" Church!

Let the sinless cast the first stone!

http://www.pokrov.org/index.html

Amado

Show me my posts where I have said that The Orthodox Church is perfect?

Show me where I have said it is infallible?

If you have read a history of my posts, you will see that I believe NOTHING on this world is uncorrupted -- including the Orthodox Church.

It is the issue of HOW the sins are dealt with -- not that it does not occur in any other Church.



Offline Amadeus

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2004, 03:42:15 PM »
TomS:

You keep on harping on the "infallibility" of the Church as if this dogma could and should shield the Catholic Church from the priestly sexual misconduct.

Either you are entirely missing the point or you are misunderstanding the nature and extent of the dogma of infallibility.  

The Orthodox Church also claims infallibility; the only difference is that the RCC has dogmatized it and has conferrred the charism additionally on the Pope singularly, in addition to an Ecumenical Council and to the College of Bishops in union with the Pope.

The Catholic Church is dealing with this particular problem. She is not shirking from this responsibility at all.

Amado


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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2004, 03:51:15 PM »
Elisha:

The comparative number of sexual abuses is definitely larger in the RCC because the RCC is much larger than the OC here in the U.S.

And the Catholic Church admits to these occurrences without hiding behind closed doors.  In the U.S., I referenced above WHAT IS BEING DONE by the USCCB.

But that is begging the question, isn't it?

What is unbelievable is that Orthodox posters seem to advance the notion that these indiscretions are not happening in the Orthodox Church[es] (or in any other religious denominations). Or, at least, that sexual abuse will never happen in the "perfect" Church=Orthodox Church.

Amado

You're welcome to dig up some per capita (per diocese/parish/population/whatever) data and  calculate abuse statistics.  I have BS in Statistics (no pun intended) and can validate anything.  My point was that the frequency is no where comparable, besides the point at the atrocius way the abuses were handled and then the system that spartacus keeps pointing out wrt mandatory celibacy.

Offline Jennifer

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2004, 03:53:34 PM »
Then your "good conservative priest" was either naiive or lying to you. Even the RCC commissioned a study and published finding that indicated about half of their priest are gay, the seminaries are overrun with homosexuals...and many of these men are sexually active.

The priest who ran the RC parish where my wife and I were married told us of numerous stories of his days in the seminary when he was proposition ed for homosexual sex. Our two family members who are also RC priests had stories of their own.

Although the RCC migh tnot be a "den of vipers" it is howver by its own admission tainted and soiled with Satan's unholy smoke.

I've been a practicing Catholic all my life and have only met one priest I knew to be gay.  The vast majority of priests I've known in my life have been horrified by homosexuality.  Even if they were 'liberal' priests.  

As for my priest friend, I trust him and know he's not naive.  He's the first to admit the problems in the RCC.  He left a screwed up diocese because it was so screwed up.  However, he says that even in the screwed up diocese he only met a few gay priests.

Offline TomS

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2004, 03:57:08 PM »
The Catholic Church is dealing with this particular problem. She is not shirking from this responsibility at all.

Amado

You REALLY believe this? If the RCC is dealing with this issue then it is ONLY because it was FORCED to and not because it was guided by the Holy Spirit to protect the youngest of it's flock.

Offline TomS

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2004, 04:00:03 PM »
The Orthodox Church also claims infallibility...

NOTHING on this world in ifallible INCLUDING the Orthodox Church. All you have to do to determine this is read the history.

Ohh -- unless you are going to use that inane argument that "Men are infallible, but the Church isn't".

Offline Amadeus

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2004, 04:06:49 PM »
TomS:

This is the recent study (and statistics) compiled by an independent group on the clergy scandals covering the entire U.S. Catholic Church (East and West):

http://www.usccb.org/nrb/index.htm

It is of public record and anybody can scrutinize the results.

I am uncertain, though, where to locate any statistics/studies on the Orthodox Church. Do you even acknowledge that the Orthodox Church is not immune to this problem?

Amado

Offline TomS

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2004, 04:25:52 PM »
Do you even acknowledge that the Orthodox Church is not immune to this problem?

To a certain extent, yes. See my posts above - NO CHURCH IS INFALLIBLE!
The RCC has it much worse due to the celibacy requirement.

You are missing the point -- the issue is that it was ongoing and the bishops new about and did nothing until they had to deal with it. And even now they are not dealing with WHY the problem is ocurring, they are simply dealing with HOW they are going to pay for it.


« Last Edit: May 28, 2004, 04:26:35 PM by Tom+ú »

Offline Jennifer

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2004, 04:30:03 PM »
I'm confused.  I thought Orthodox believed that the Church was infallible.

Offline Amadeus

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2004, 04:37:14 PM »
Dear Jennifer:

It's both confusing AND surprising for TomS, being an Orthodox, not believing in the infallibility of the Orthodox Church!

He is the first and, possibly, the only one on this Board.

Amado

Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2004, 05:21:32 PM »
First off, the Orthodox Church does teach it is infallible!

Every Orthodox bishop, priest, and monastic I have spoke with has made this very clear, as did the Fathers of the Church. Tom, with his Protestant mindset, does not believe this, this is no different than a Catholic saying the Catholic Church isn't infallible, Tom does not represent the teaching of his own Church, and is straying from the teaching of the Fathers.

As for all of the sexual abuse scandals.....

I get the feeling from some of these posts, esp Spartacus's, that the fact that these sexual abuse scandals occur, somehow makes the Catholic Church not the true Church, which is totally absurd. The sins of Catholic priests in no way damage the Catholic Church's teachings! If we look at the heresies of the early Church we can see that many times only a handful of bishops and priests professed the true faith. And today we see the great apostasay, very very few good priests remain, but this in no way somehow makes the Catholic Church not the true Church. If anything, from the Orthodox perspective, the Filioque and Papal infallibility make the Catholic Church not the true Church, but not the sins of priests and bishops! It is heresy to believe the sins of priests and/or bishops effect the mysteries of the Church, or the over all teaching of the Church.

The sexual abuse scandals in no way disprove Rome's claim to be the true Church, if anything it is proof that Vatican II and the post-Vatican II refroms failed. Such events only support the traditional Catholics, and their fight to reclaim their Church!

What is happening in the Catholic Church is horrible, but honestly, using these events to proove the Catholic Church isn't the true Church is absolutely a joke!
« Last Edit: May 28, 2004, 05:22:54 PM by Ben »
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline TomS

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2004, 05:31:00 PM »
What is happening in the Catholic Church is horrible, but honestly, using these events to proove the Catholic Church isn't the true Church is absolutely a joke!

No, No, No! You misunderstand me, Ben. I am not trying to use the "events" (I wonder if the innocents consider them just "events") to prove that the Roman catholic church is not the true church, that was decided YEARS ago when the Pope started listening to, and acting upon, the recommendations of the Evil One to whispering in his ear.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2004, 05:32:04 PM by Tom+ú »

Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2004, 06:07:10 PM »
No, No, No! You misunderstand me, Ben. I am not trying to use the "events" (I wonder if the innocents consider them just "events") to prove that the Roman catholic church is not the true church, that was decided YEARS ago when the Pope started listening to, and acting upon, the recommendations of the Evil One to whispering in his ear.


You may not, but from many posts in this thread it seems to be an argument why the Catholic Church isn't the true Church, or a good reason why people shouldn't be Catholic.

I wonder Tom why you are so convinced that Rome is controlled by Satan, when you yourself reject and deny fundamental teachings of Orthodoxy, that have been taught since the earliest times. Perhaps you've been listening to "the recommendations of the Evil One".
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline TomS

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2004, 06:47:45 PM »
.. Perhaps you've been listening to "the recommendations of the Evil One".

Well, I certainly will not deny that!

Offline Jakub

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2004, 08:19:46 PM »
Let's not get off topic on who is the true Church, I can acknowledge that celibacy has some effect on weak individuals, but that only pertains to relations with the opposite sex.

A homosexual is a different beast.


james
An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2004, 08:22:11 PM »
Yes those homosexuals, them are evil beasts. ::)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2004, 08:24:20 PM by Ben »
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Jakub

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2004, 08:34:53 PM »
Ben,

I'm not calling gays beasts, I have known a few gay people in my time and they were alot more charitable then many straight people I know today. I don't care to pry into one's preference, its between them & God.

Sexual predators both gay & straight are the problem.

james
An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline Linus7

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2004, 08:48:42 PM »
It is incredible how one can see the influence of the Zeitgeist even here.

Homosexuality is a protected abomination these days. Thus one poster defends those poor, persecuted (?) souls from the implication that they are "beasts," and another (the alleged offender) retreats, protesting that he does not pry into one's "preference!"

Amazing!

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Offline Jakub

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2004, 08:58:57 PM »
Linus,

Yes, in the eyes of the Church it is sinful, so is being a thief, cussing, excessive drinking, unmarried sex, etc.

I'm no saint and I don't expect there are many walking this earth, only people who percieve they are.

james
An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2004, 09:00:25 PM »
James said "A homosexual is a different beast". He didn't say Homosexuality, or homosexual acts, rather "A Homosexual".  I know he did not mean it to mean all Homosexuals are beasts, but it can be taken that way.
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Jakub

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2004, 09:05:53 PM »
I guess its time for a break from these discussions, too many perfect people in a imperfect world.

james
An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2004, 09:14:47 PM »
I'm sorry Jakub, but the way you worded your post can be every offensive to many, and frankly un-Christian.
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Linus7

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2004, 09:22:46 PM »
I guess its time for a break from these discussions, too many perfect people in a imperfect world.

james

I'm not perfect, James.

I had no problem with your use of the word beast, which I took to mean type or kind.

I was merely commenting on what I observed in the brief exchange between Ben and you.

Sorry if I offended you.
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2004, 09:26:47 PM »
I'm sorry Jakub, but the way you worded your post can be every offensive to many, and frankly un-Christian.

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination" (Lev. 18:22).


The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
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Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2004, 09:32:45 PM »
Linus homosexual acts are contrary to the will of God, I do not deny this. But to call homsexuals, or anybody for that matter, beasts, is down right wrong. Lumping all homosexuals under one word isn't fair, and honeslty isn't the Christian think to do. I think it is funny how often scripture is used to enhance hate and bigotry.

And by the way the Leviticus verse is the weakeast anti-homosexual acts verse you can use, as a Christian. I would suggest you use Paul's condmenations of homosexual acts. Leviticus sets down many rules that do not apply to Christians, it is apart of the Mosaic Law which does not apply to us.
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Linus7

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2004, 09:37:16 PM »
Linus homosexual acts are contrary to the will of God, I do not deny this. But to call homsexuals, or anybody for that matter, beasts, is down right wrong. Lumping all homosexuals under one word isn't fair, and honeslty isn't the Christian think to do. I think it is funny how often scripture is used to enhance hate and bigotry.

And by the way the Leviticus verse is the weakeast anti-homosexual acts verse you can use, as a Christian. I would suggest you use Paul's condmenations of homosexual acts. Leviticus sets down many rules that do not apply to Christians, it is apart of the Mosaic Law which does not apply to us.

Well, Ben, protests against "hate and bigotry" are the easiest to make these days and the ones most likely to meet with approbation.

I don't think Jakub meant "beast" in the way you think he did.

My point in quoting Leviticus was that homosexuality is more than a mere sin. It is an abomination, a thing revolting and hateful in the eyes of God.

And that is the unpopular truth, no matter whom it offends.
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Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2004, 09:44:37 PM »

Quote
I don't think Jakub meant "beast" in the way you think he did.

I know he didn't, but with the way he worded it, it is easy to come to the conclusions that I did.

Quote
My point in quoting Leviticus was that homosexuality is more than a mere sin. It is an abomination, a thing revolting and hateful in the eyes of God.

I guess this is how you define Homosexuality.

If homosexuality is no different than homosexual acts, then I totally agree. But if homosexuality is a sexual orientation, I totally disagree. The verse you quoted condemnd homosexual acts, not homsexuality itself. Homosexuality itself is something totally different then homosexual acts, in my opinion, it is a sexual orientation that gays don't ask for. A sexual orientation that, contrary to what many Protestants think, can't be changed if you just accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Frobie

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2004, 11:58:07 PM »
All people obsess about is sex and anti-Catholicism! :)

Offline spartacus

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2004, 01:03:18 AM »

I get the feeling from some of these posts, esp Spartacus's, that the fact that these sexual abuse scandals occur, somehow makes the Catholic Church not the true Church, which is totally absurd.


Let me make myself more clear. It is not that some priests abuse children. It is how RCC in th eUS responded to this issue that makes it corrupt.

Again...not the sin or the crime...but the sin and and the crime committed by Bishops after the fact in a vain attempt to hide it.

Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2004, 01:04:37 AM »
I understand Spartacus, but as I said in my post that yu quoted, the sins of the Bishops in no way somehow make a good argument to show that the RCC isn't the true Church.
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Jennifer

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #69 on: May 29, 2004, 08:30:24 AM »
Let me make myself more clear. It is not that some priests abuse children. It is how RCC in th eUS responded to this issue that makes it corrupt.

Again...not the sin or the crime...but the sin and and the crime committed by Bishops after the fact in a vain attempt to hide it.

Are you sure that the same thing didn't happen in the Orthodox Church?

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2004, 09:52:43 AM »
What strikes me is how some just can't stop talking about the Roman Catholic Church. It's 'the big church' in America, that's for sure.

Quote
It is not that some priests abuse children.


Actually most of these offenders aren't p+ªdos (some were, like John Geoghan) but rather gays who've done things with teenage boys, not children. The media don't say that ’cos they wanna be PC, like they don't say something else true but un-PC: that such people try to recruit at a young age.

Quote
Are you sure that the same thing didn't happen in the Orthodox Church?

To be fair, sure, there have been a few clergy sex scandals and crimes among the Orthodox but AFAIK to their credit the Orthodox bishops don't have a track record of covering them up and shuffling offenders from church to church (the 'turkey dance'), racking up more victims. From what I've seen reading such news, if those guys get caught they're suspended or even defrocked.

There are numerically fewer cases too because it's a much smaller church in America. Proportionally it's probably about the same as RC - a small minority of priests.

And one can't blame celibacy - Fr Andrew Greeley, a liberal dissenter about some things who'd also like to drop that rule, is also a sociologist and being professionally honest admits he can't blame that rule for what happened.
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #71 on: May 29, 2004, 11:52:02 AM »
Friends,

In effect Cardinal Law has been confined to Rome because the archpriests of the major basilica's are responsible for celebrating Mass in those basilicas.

As for protecting him there was no need as he had that the day he became a cardinal.  Cardinals have the diplomatic status of princes of the royal blood *(as ratified by the Versailles Treaty) which means they have diplomatic immunity and cannot be tried or imprisoned by anybody but the Pope.

Fr. Deacon Lance

To get us back on topic, I think that your depiction of this as a punishment is absurd.  With this appointment, according to an article in te Boston Globe, Law gets palatial apartments with beautiful frescoes and a salary of 10,000 to 12,000 euros a month.  In addition, Law continues to be one of the most influential American prelates, as he sits on 9 curial appointments.  

All, this is not a matter of infallibility, this is not a matter of what church is the Church.  In fact, this really needn't be a discussion of pedophilia vs. ephebophilia vs. homosexuality.  The point here is that whatever the nature of the sex abuse crisis in the Catholic Church (and not just in the U.S., e.g. the U.K.), the Catholic Hierarchy, especially the Vatican, has yet to get a grip.  Bishop Gregory a few months ago declared the scandal "over".  According to Jason Berry's latest book, the Vatican has known about the goings on in the American Chruch since at least 1985 with the Doyle report, every step of the way JPII insisted that all investigation be done in accord with secret ecclesiastical proceeding, covered by the seal of confession, and has refused to defrock many priests, even after being jailed for their crimes.  Bishops like Law and Weakland (who is now doing confirmations again) continue to have faculties and many of them enjoy highly respected places in the hierarchy.

JPII likes to talk a lot about encouraging holy families to rise up and confront the culture of death, and many American prelates repeat the message.  I think many Catholics feel that it is time for John Paul to put his authority where his mouth is and start appointing bishops who are going to help, and censure the ones who are hindering.

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #72 on: May 29, 2004, 01:28:46 PM »
As a Catholic, I agree with what our friend iustinos just said.  

Amen, brother!
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #73 on: May 29, 2004, 02:33:10 PM »
Agree 100% iustinos. And if this was done, you would not have people like me who are just so disgusted with the RCC that they believe that it is lost to the Evil One.

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #74 on: May 29, 2004, 07:09:52 PM »
Are you saying that adolescent boys who are molested by priests is simply a homosexual issue?

When a youngster is dealing with oncoming hormones and sexual feelings in adolescent years, it is one of the more vulnerable times to cross a boundary as a priest.  

Maybe adolescent boys aren't technically children, but that doesn't mean that molesting them isn't technically abuse.

Greta Larson




Great post, Demetri. I agree.

I wonder about something, though.

When we speak of "children" having been abused, just what do we mean?

It is my understanding that by far most of the victims were adolescent boys - technically or legally children, but not really.

It seems to me that by accusing these offenders of pedophilia we are masking what has really occurred in the RCC: not an invasion of pedophiles but of homosexuals.
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #75 on: May 29, 2004, 07:17:45 PM »
The whole distinction between pedophiles and eubophiles (sp?) is a way of making it seem like the latter is less harmful. Both are equally painful to the victims. In fact, sometimes an older victim can feel even more pained.

I disagree with your comment below. Orthodox Bishops have equally covered up crimes. What about Archbishop Dmitri shuffling around Sterling Rayburn (AKA Fr. Andrew) and what about the case of Gabriel Barrow which involved cover-up by Antiochian and GOA bishops? The GOA also quietly removed Pangratios Vrionis without disclosure. What about Fr. John Liadis in Florida?  He's a convicted pedophile listed on the Florida offender registry and a priest in good standing in the GOA.  The only reason Koveos was defrocked in Vermont was because the family of the victims threatened to sue the GOA.

Finally, while celibacy is often blamed, I have seen (with my work on Pokrov) an equal amount of allegations against married clergy.

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 to their credit the Orthodox bishops don't have a track record of covering them up and shuffling offenders from church to church (the 'turkey dance'), racking up more victims. From what I've seen reading such news, if those guys get caught they're suspended or even defrocked.

There are numerically fewer cases too because it's a much smaller church in America. Proportionally it's probably about the same as RC - a small minority of priests.

And one can't blame celibacy - Fr Andrew Greeley, a liberal dissenter about some things who'd also like to drop that rule, is also a sociologist and being professionally honest admits he can't blame that rule for what happened.
Quote
« Last Edit: May 29, 2004, 07:27:14 PM by larsong »
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #76 on: May 29, 2004, 07:26:17 PM »
Good to see you here larsong. The Orthodox Church certainly also has its issues. No Church is perfect in this world.

If the following is true: "What about Fr. John Liadis in Florida?  He's a convicted pedophile listed on the Florida offender registry and a priest in good standing in the GOA." then it is certainly inexcusable!

« Last Edit: May 29, 2004, 07:42:11 PM by Tom+ú »

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #77 on: May 29, 2004, 07:54:46 PM »
Is it "Ephebophilia" you mean, Larsong?  "also known as hebephilia, is the sexual attraction of an adult to adolescents. "  gratia Wikipedia

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #78 on: May 29, 2004, 09:08:54 PM »
Iostinos,

"To get us back on topic, I think that your depiction of this as a punishment is absurd."

Absurd, yes, but it is a way the Vatican punishes people.  One of our former hierarchs had much the same thing done to him.  He was moved to Rome, given a ceremonial position, and elevated from bishop to archbishop.  And he was miserable, hated Rome and simply wanted to come home which Rome finally let him do but only after requiring him to transfer to the Latin Church and giving him an assignment as an auxillary bishop.

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #79 on: May 30, 2004, 06:26:25 AM »
Are you saying that adolescent boys who are molested by priests is simply a homosexual issue?

When a youngster is dealing with oncoming hormones and sexual feelings in adolescent years, it is one of the more vulnerable times to cross a boundary as a priest.  

Maybe adolescent boys aren't technically children, but that doesn't mean that molesting them isn't technically abuse.

Greta Larson

Who said it wasn't abuse?

It is the abuse of adolescent males by homosexual priests.

Homosexuals should not be priests.
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #80 on: May 30, 2004, 07:39:06 AM »
Ms Larson,

If that's true I'm very sorry to hear it.

Linus7,

Quote
Homosexuals should not be priests.

Your opinion and a matter of discipline that on paper since 1961 the RC Church agrees with.

However, one must distinguish between orientation and practice. The latter of course is out of the question.

But men with the orientation can make wonderful priests - in Eastern Orthodoxy one sees Fr Seraphim (Rose) and possibly St John of Kronstadt too (he married just so he could be a parish priest, not for love, and he and the wife agreed to go without sex).

What happened among RCs (and, yikes, Byzantine Catholics) from the late 1960s on was priests began making excuses for the practice - 'gay is good', 'it doesn't count against celibacy if it's not sex with women', etc.

Something neither St John of Kronstadt nor Fr Seraphim would have approved of.
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #81 on: May 30, 2004, 07:47:50 AM »
Ms Larson,

If that's true I'm very sorry to hear it.

Linus7,Your opinion and a matter of discipline that on paper since 1961 the RC Church agrees with.

However, one must distinguish between orientation and practice. The latter of course is out of the question.

But men with the orientation can make wonderful priests - in Eastern Orthodoxy one sees Fr Seraphim (Rose) and possibly St John of Kronstadt too (he married just so he could be a parish priest, not for love, and he and the wife agreed to go without sex).

What happened among RCs (and, yikes, Byzantine Catholics) from the late 1960s on was priests began making excuses for the practice - 'gay is good', 'it doesn't count against celibacy if it's not sex with women', etc.

Something neither St John of Kronstadt nor Fr Seraphim would have approved of.

I agree with you, and I was aware of Fr. Seraphim Rose's orientation. I was not aware that St. John of Kronstadt had also been a homosexual.

Of course, I understand the difference between orientation and practice.

I still think it is probably best if homosexuals do not become priests or, if they do, that they be carefully supervised and monitored.

I have the same opinion regarding heterosexual males who display a strong attraction for females but who either refuse to marry or are not yet married.

Some folks are actually called to a life of celibacy.

Most of us are not.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2004, 07:51:03 AM by Linus7 »
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #82 on: May 30, 2004, 09:12:01 AM »
[I agree with you, and I was aware of Fr. Seraphim Rose's orientation. I was not aware that St. John of Kronstadt had also been a homosexual.]

Nor has it ever been proven.  

Claim seems to be made more by Byzantine Catholics than Orthodox.

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #83 on: May 30, 2004, 02:10:51 PM »
I think care must be taken.  These things do happen in the Orthodox Church.  We are a much smaller group, we do not get the attention that the Catholics get, that is the main difference I think.  You don't "hear about them", but that doesn't mean there aren't problems.
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #84 on: May 30, 2004, 07:58:37 PM »
Linus,

Quote
The real problem is that sometime in the 1950s, I believe, the RC priesthood began to be infiltrated by homosexuals. Prior to that time, the RCC would boot out of seminary any young man whom it suspected of homosexuality, practicing or not.

I've thought of this as well.  While corruption and decadence seem to be faciliated by the "RC system" and is a long term problem, there does seem to be a real "downward spiral" that Catholicism has taken in the last fifty years or so.

I think it's fair to say that there are people high up in the RCC who are conscious "change makers", trying to transform the RCC along Masonic principles (their use of the Masonic slogan "order out of chaos" is particularly obvious.)   The degrees of this consciousness vary, though I have it on pretty good authority (and no, not simply from Malachi Martin books) that there is a full blown Freemasonry in the Vatican, and no it's not the "harmless, boys club" kind.  There are also groups of differing types of malevolence involved in this mix as well (such as Opus Dei, which appeals to crypto-fascists the world over.)

It's also known that at least earlier in the century, just as the Communists had subordinated several local Orthodox Churches and eventually replaced their heirarchies with subservient puppets (and even outright KGB agents), the Communists also made efforts to infiltrate religious (particularly Christian) groups the world over - obviously the RCC would be at the top of that list.

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #85 on: May 30, 2004, 08:01:27 PM »
Serge,

Quote
But men with the orientation can make wonderful priests - in Eastern Orthodoxy one sees Fr Seraphim (Rose) and possibly St John of Kronstadt too (he married just so he could be a parish priest, not for love, and he and the wife agreed to go without sex).

I know Lev Puhalo (the "Archbishop" of New Ostrog) has expressed the view that St.John was a "homosexual" (and apparently he's also of the opinion that St.John is not a real saint), but what besides this would be evidence of this?

Seraphim

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #86 on: June 01, 2004, 10:19:56 AM »
IUSTINOS: "To get us back on topic, I think that your depiction of this as a punishment is absurd."

DEACON LANCE: Absurd, yes, but it is a way the Vatican punishes people.

In other words:
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #87 on: June 01, 2004, 12:18:12 PM »
Mi querido Pedro:

That's very funny!  ;D ;D ;D

However, it is just a caricature and conveys the perception of an outsider. (Or, the artist is a good Roman Catholic bursting with a healthy sense of humor!)

Are your sure you are not Catholic?

Hasta luego!

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #88 on: June 01, 2004, 12:43:23 PM »
Quote
Are you sure you are not Catholic?

COMPLETAMENTE seguro.  O, si quisieras, -í"cat+¦lico" con 'c' min+¦scula!  ;D
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #89 on: June 01, 2004, 01:12:54 PM »
Serge,I know Lev Puhalo (the "Archbishop" of New Ostrog) has expressed the view that St.John was a "homosexual" (and apparently he's also of the opinion that St.John is not a real saint), but what besides this would be evidence of this?

Seraphim


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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #90 on: June 01, 2004, 01:38:40 PM »
During this scandal in the Roman Catholic Church, I have become very, very cautious about pointing fingers at the Roman Catholic Church. All we Orthodox have to do is read just a little of our own history to know that we too have our problems, scandals, outrages, and cover-ups.  What amazes me are the number of Orthodox that think celibacy is the CAUSE of all Rome's problems!  Let us just look at our own Orthodox Church and realize that having married clergy does not eliminate problems or scandals, nor does it create perfection.  I often tell my Roman Catholic friends, if you think that having married priests will solve all your problems, look at us.

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #91 on: June 01, 2004, 02:17:14 PM »
:Fr Andrew Greeley, a liberal dissenter about some things who'd also like to drop that rule,:

Actually, Fr. Greeley favors priestly celibacy. Don't assume that because he is a "liberal dissenter about some things" (which is certainly true) he therefore fits a stereotype.

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #92 on: June 01, 2004, 02:27:59 PM »
Quote
Actually, Fr. Greeley favors priestly celibacy. Don't assume that because he is a "liberal dissenter about some things" (which is certainly true) he therefore fits a stereotype.

I've read his books - from the way he rhaposodizes about priests having affairs with women naturally I concluded he wanted to change the rule.

Or do you mean he favours keeping the rule literally, that RC priests should be unmarried, while at the same time 'finding themselves' by having rapturous intercourse with convenient women the way they do in his fiction?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2004, 02:28:53 PM by Serge »
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #93 on: June 01, 2004, 02:38:02 PM »
I do know that Father Greeley has written a number of articles debunking the claim that celibacy is the reason for the pedo/ephebophile scandal in the Roman Catholic Church.  Every article I've seen him write re: that topic praises priestly celibacy.  

BTW, I'm no fan of his books.  Trite romantic garbage, AFAIC.
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #94 on: June 01, 2004, 06:22:36 PM »
Homosexuals should not be priests.

I strongly disagree!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a homosexual being a priest, as long as he is not active and not even considering being active. If a homosexual does not choose to live the homosexual lifestyle, and sees the great sin in homesexual behavior and does not wish to engage in that most sinful behavior, and if God calls them to the priesthood....I see no problem in homosexuals becoming priests.

Homosexuality is not a choice, and if God calls these men to the priesthood, and they are truly living a chaste a pure life, where is the problem?!

I understand that there are fears involved, and this would truly have to be worked out on a one to one basis between the individual and his bishop, but to ban all homosexuals from the priesthood, reagardless of their faith and their calling, is absurd!

Just my opinion.....
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #95 on: June 01, 2004, 07:02:46 PM »
Homosexuality is not a choice, and if God calls these men to the priesthood, and they are truly living a chaste a pure life, where is the problem?!


Right--homosexuality is a series of choices.  It is a learned behaviour which becomes "hard-wired" in the brain (which is why change is so difficult).  But what is impossible with men, is possible by God's grace. An example is a friend of mine who was in that lifestyle for about 12 or so years and now is no longer involved in it.   And even if the desires remain a struggle for some of them throughout their lives, I agree that by God's mercy and grace they can live "chaste" lives.
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2004, 07:59:09 AM »
One must be careful, though, about issuing a blanket endorsement to homosexuals for the priesthood, even when they are non-practicing.  
Homosexuality involves alot more than just attraction to the same sex - at the core it's very possibly a gender-identity issue.
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #97 on: June 03, 2004, 04:17:18 PM »
Right--homosexuality is a series of choices.  It is a learned behaviour which becomes "hard-wired" in the brain (which is why change is so difficult).  But what is impossible with men, is possible by God's grace. An example is a friend of mine who was in that lifestyle for about 12 or so years and now is no longer involved in it.   And even if the desires remain a struggle for some of them throughout their lives, I agree that by God's mercy and grace they can live "chaste" lives.

Being a homosexual is not a choice. Whether born with it or not, men and women who are really homosexuals did not choose to be homosexuals. There is no choice there, as you said there is a lot more to homosexuality than just being attracted to members of the same sex, they can't just wake up and decide not to be hgomosexual. But homosexuals do have the choice to live a pure life, it isn't going to be easy, but it is possible with the grace of God.

As I said in my original post this whole issue would have to be worked out on a one to one basis between the homosexual and his Bishop. We can not say all homosexuals can not priests, nor can we say all homosexuals if they don't have sex can be priests, it is a issue that with the grace of God must worked out with years of prayer and guidance from a good spritual father.
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #98 on: June 03, 2004, 05:12:28 PM »
Being a homosexual is not a choice. [Whether born with it or not, men and women who are really homosexuals did not choose to be homosexuals. There is no choice there, as you said there is a lot more to homosexuality than just being attracted to members of the same sex, they can't just wake up and decide not to be hgomosexual.
They can change.  Therefore, even the homosexual orientation is not something they have to be stuck with.  Like I said, it is a learned behaviour/orientation.  While no one wakes up one day and thinks, "Gee, I've decided to be a homosexual", human volition is certainly involved in obsessing over, acting on, and reinforcing certain thoughts, desires, and behavior (just like any addictive sin when you think about it).  This is when it becomes "hard-wired", so to speak, making change very difficult.  However, even at this point the brain/CNS still has a degree of plasticity that allows for change.  Ultimately, however, this change needs to be effected spiritually.  People by God's grace who have been involved in homosexuality have been radically changed, and some of these have entered into meaningful heterosexual marriages.
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #99 on: June 03, 2004, 05:16:24 PM »
I disagree, my dear Thomas, but just a bit.

Some can change.  Heck, I'll even go as far to say most.  But everyone with a homosexual orientation cannot just go get married and be all happy for the rest of their lives.  They will struggle with their sexuality until they die.  Does this mean they have to submit to it?  No, of course not, but they will struggle.
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Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #100 on: June 03, 2004, 05:35:32 PM »
Some homosexuals do "change", but the vast majority die homosexuals. Homosexuality is not something that can just be changed if you lead a religious and chaste life. Yes, by the grace of God, there are miracles, and some men and women change from being homosexual to heterosexual, but this is very rare, and to say it happens all of the time or that it should, is truly an insult to those who have spent their whole lives fighting homosexuality, wanting nothing more than to be a normal heterosexual.

Marriage or a holy life doesn't automaticaly transform a homosexual into a heterosexual. Homosexuality is a long and difficult struggle, that isn't gotten rid of just by faith in Jesus Christ. For many it is a God given cross to bare, that isn't meant to be cured.
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Offline Brendan03

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #101 on: June 03, 2004, 05:40:57 PM »
I agree with both Ben and Schultz.  For some homosexuals it is truly not a choice, it appears to be hardwired from an early age.  For others, it is more of a chosen behavior, however ... I have met more than one person who claims she now prefers to date other women because she is sick and tired of the antics of men, for example, and that is a chosen behavior rather than a hard-wired one.  I think it is hard to generalize about people who hve homosexual behaviors.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 05:41:25 PM by Brendan03 »
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Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #102 on: June 03, 2004, 05:43:53 PM »
It is true that there are those who engage in homosexual behavior but aren't homosexuals. We see that this is a comon trend amoung many young single women sick of men. This is of course a choice, but when you talk about real homosexuals that are sexually attracted to members of the same sex, and not the opposite sex, and have been this way as long as they could remember, you have a totally different situation, that just can't be changed overnight, if ever.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 05:45:43 PM by Ben »
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Offline Brendan03

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #103 on: June 03, 2004, 05:46:44 PM »
Ben right, but it is the behavior that is sinful.  So at least some who are committing that particular sin are people who have perhaps an easier choice at choosing that activated orientation than others do.  And, to the point made by another poster above, over time that initial choice to "try out" homosexual behavior may lead to a more hardened orientation, such that one's orientation shifts more towards homosexual.  I think it is just hard to generalize here.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 05:47:20 PM by Brendan03 »
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Offline Ben

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #104 on: June 03, 2004, 05:51:12 PM »
Yes it is very difficult to generalize, this is why we can't just say all homosexuals shouln't be priests. Some homosexuals have always been attracted to members of the same sex, as long as they can remember. Others engage in homosexual behavior to do something new or different. And others started out just trying it, and ending up prefering it to heterosexual relationships. Each case is different, and all homosexuals, and homosexuality in general, really can't be addresed with one huge blanket judgement.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 05:51:28 PM by Ben »
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Offline Ebor

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #105 on: June 03, 2004, 06:26:53 PM »
All people obsess about is sex and anti-Catholicism! :)

Naw, Frobie.  I obsess about History and the Lord of the Rings.  ;D

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Offline Doubting Thomas

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #106 on: June 03, 2004, 06:48:12 PM »
I disagree, my dear Thomas, but just a bit.

Some can change.  Heck, I'll even go as far to say most.  But everyone with a homosexual orientation cannot just go get married and be all happy for the rest of their lives.  They will struggle with their sexuality until they die.  Does this mean they have to submit to it?  No, of course not, but they will struggle.

I agree with everything you wrote here.  It certainly wasn't my intent to imply all homosexuals could make such a radical change to the point they can marry (but I suppose anything is possible with God :)), nor to imply that there are none that have to struggle with their sexuality until they die despite their heart's desire to repent.

I also agree that one can't generalize about homosexuality.  I've actuality read that it might be more correct to think in terms of "homosexualities" since it's manifestations are not homogeneous.
At any rate, one can resist the act by the grace of God even if one struggles with the orientation for most of his life.
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Offline Brendan03

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #107 on: June 04, 2004, 08:21:20 AM »
Just a related letter to the editor from today's NYT:


Cardinal Law's New Job

Published: June 4, 2004

To the Editor:

When I read about Cardinal Bernard F. Law's appointment as archpriest of St. Mary Major Basilica in Rome, I didn't know whether to laugh, cry or give up my collar (news article, May 28).

There are priests who are guilty of a single incident of misconduct 20 or more years ago. As a result, they have been permanently stripped of their priestly faculties; they cannot wear a collar or present themselves as priests. Having no other means of support, they are allowed to live in their communities and contribute what they can by answering phones and stuffing envelopes.

Bernard Law, on the other hand, was archbishop of Boston when hundreds of allegations of abuse were made. He resigned reluctantly. He is now honored with a prestigious appointment. This is a slap in the face not only to victims of abuse but also to all Catholics, who have suffered the humiliation of this scandal.

Will this outrageous act finally motivate us to demand accountability from Roman officials and to confront the obvious disdain with which they view the American church?

(Rev.) CHARLES E. BOUCHARD
St. Louis, May 28, 2004
The writer is president of the Aquinas Institute of Theology.

B

Offline TomS

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #108 on: June 04, 2004, 08:24:18 AM »
He's spitting into the wind.

Offline Fr. David

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #109 on: June 04, 2004, 09:06:36 AM »
Well, when you've got nothing left to lose, might as well get a little dirty.  :-";"xx
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Offline Nacho

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #110 on: June 04, 2004, 02:05:36 PM »
Quote
Bernard Law, on the other hand, was archbishop of Boston when hundreds of allegations of abuse were made. He resigned reluctantly. He is now honored with a prestigious appointment. This is a slap in the face not only to victims of abuse but also to all Catholics, who have suffered the humiliation of this scandal.

Vary dissapointing indeed. It seems Rome has some good days on one hand, but stuff like this sets them way back. Could you have imagined the Apostle Paul or Peter handling this situation like this???This kind of garbage would have never been permitted in the first place to go on for so long in a different place & time in the Church.
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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #111 on: June 04, 2004, 02:07:11 PM »
I can surely imagine St. Nicholas literally beating Cardinal Law up!
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Jakub

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #112 on: June 04, 2004, 02:26:32 PM »
IMO,

The "good"Cardinal should be reassigned to a monastery period.

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Offline TomS

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #113 on: June 04, 2004, 02:32:07 PM »
The "good" Cardinal should be reassigned to a monastery period.

Yes. And the only people allowed to visit his cell should be realtives of the victims of those Priests he knowingly reassigned. Yes. That would be good.

Offline Amadeus

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Re:Roman Catholic Church continues to bring humiliation to Itself
« Reply #114 on: June 04, 2004, 03:35:42 PM »
Dear All:

I am probably one of the few, or quite possibly the only one, who has not been perturbed by the outcome in the disposition of Cardinal Law.

Legally:

The non-indictment of Cardinal Law by the Attorney General of Massachussetts attests to the insufficiency of evidence to mount a successful conviction of any criminal wrongdoing on the part of the Archbishop of Boston.

If the Cardinal were an accessory during the commission of the sexual abuses, he could have been indicted even as a co-principal. But he was not. He was not there actually present during the commission of those priestly crimes. He was not a participant, active or passive.

At best, Cardinal Law was an accessory afterthe fact. But to implicate him to the crime as such, he must be proven to have known the fact that a certain priest is committing/has committed a crime during re-assignments. Reasonable diligence is required to ascertain such facts and the Cardinal reasonably relied on the advice of his auxilliaries that neither records of Church tribunals nor of the civilian courts showed "conviction" or "indictment" of the priests being re-assigned.

The legal principle of "respondeat superior" does not apply here, contrary to some suggestions aired in the media. For the principle to apply, i.e., the damage or liability done or incurred by the subordinate (the "agent") can be attributed under law to the superior (the "principal"), the "act" of the subordinate or agent complained of must be, or have been, authorized or, at least, by defininition, is/was within the normal activities of the subordinate.

Morally:

As the ordinary of the Archdiocese of Boston, Cardinal Law failed miserably in steering the clergy in an exemplary way. Clearly, there was a failure of leadership, which also led to the "suffering" of the laity. He was so detached from reality and he, therefore, deserved to be forced out of his stewardship.

His recall to Rome should not be a surprise. All Cardinals are required to reside and live in Rome, unless you are also a diocesan Bishop.

His Eminence is/was both a diocesan bishop (a Metropolitan Archbishop) AND a Cardinal, a title he was bestowed one year after he was appointed Archbishop of Boston. As such Cardinal, he is considered under (Catholic) Canon Law as a member of the clergy of the Diocese of Rome, over which the Pope, as Bishop of Rome, presides. Losing his Archbishopric position precipitated his "going home" to his canonical jurisdiction in Rome.

But should he been appointed as an Archpriest of  the Basilica of St. Mary Major? He has his "titular" Church in Rome already, in addition to this "real" appointment as Archpriest, from which an 82-year old Italian Cardinal just retired. One of his duties as Archpriest is to celebrate the Holy Mass (I think weekly) at the Basilica on behalf of the Pope.

I don't know, but the Pope has made such an appointment.

Amado