Topic: Turkey-Armenia and EO/OO Relations...

[88Devin12]

I had been wondering after I recently visited Turkey, and after reading an article that they recently tore down a "peace" statue for Turkey/Armenia. It got me to wondering, has Russia, Greece or the Georgians stepped in on behalf of Armenia?

I also started thinking about if reunion is actually achieved between our two Churches, couldn't that mean even more pressure on Turkey? After all it is bordered by 4 Orthodox Countries, and it shares the Black Sea with Russia, the biggest Orthodox Nation. Syria, another neighbor, has over 1.1 million Orthodox Christians living there. (about 5-6% of Syria's population)

Also, would it improve relations between the EO/OO communities if EO started taking stronger stances against Turkey's denial of the Armenian genocide, as well as Egypt's continual mistreatment of Copts?

[Alveus Lacuna]

I'm pretty sure the Georgians and Armenians have a lot of bad blood between them.

[88Devin12]

I'm pretty sure the Georgians and Armenians have a lot of bad blood between them.

True, but, so do the Russians and Ukrainians, and the Russians and Georgians. (and for that matter, EO & OO, sadly) But IMO if these countries are "truly" Orthodox, they need to see past these stupid quarrels and recognize they are brethren in Christ. (obviously I'm not referring to theological differences, but the worldly conflicts)

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but Satan is using these conflicts to blind these people and is turning them against one another. They need to see past Satan's deception and realize that he is their common enemy, and that they are part of the same church... (well, that is, EO with EO and OO with OO; EO & OO are different churches obviously)

[Alveus Lacuna]

True, but, so do the Russians and Ukrainians, and the Russians and Georgians. But IMO if these countries are "truly" Orthodox, they need to see past these stupid quarrels and recognize they are brethren in Christ. (obviously I'm not referring to theological differences, but the worldly conflicts)

To me, that's about as silly as saying that we should expect Germans, Norsemen, Finns and Swedes to get along because they are all Lutheran brothers in Christ. It just ain't reality.

[88Devin12]

True, but, so do the Russians and Ukrainians, and the Russians and Georgians. But IMO if these countries are "truly" Orthodox, they need to see past these stupid quarrels and recognize they are brethren in Christ. (obviously I'm not referring to theological differences, but the worldly conflicts)

To me, that's about as silly as saying that we should expect Germans, Norsemen, Finns and Swedes to get along because they are all Lutheran brothers in Christ. It just ain't reality.

It sadly isn't reality because Satan has been working amongst them. It is the exact same as if I were to suddenly betray a fellow parishioner and started treating them like a stranger and an enemy. Our quarrels and conflicts are stupid and petty. I know it isn't realistic, but it's the truth.

If we deny communion to those who refuse to forgive their fellow parishioners, why don't we do the same with those who refuse to forgive fellow Orthodox?
Ethnophylitism is a heresy, and we have only one membership, and that is the Church. I may be an American according to the world, but I belong to Christ. My Greek friends here in Greece may be Greek according to the world, but they belong to Christ.

This is something I've actually seen here in Greece. When people (for the most part) find out you are Orthodox, they are much friendlier toward you and are pretty open and willing to talk. This carries over into pop-culture in sports and other secular things. But to me, when it comes to the faith, we must recognize that it doesn't matter who is from what country, and what they country has done to ours. We are all one in Christ and his Church.

Again, I know I'm preaching to the choir, and I know that my views aren't really realistic to expect this from everyone (as very few in these countries are very dedicated to the faith) but it is still something that I think our hierarchs need to show. If Patriarch Kirill, Patriarch Bartholomew and Patriarch Ilia came out and denounced Turkey for it's treatment of Armenia, I think maybe it could help set a good example, as well as improve relations.

And in my opinion, on the secular level, I'd like to see President Medvedev, President Papoulias and President Saakashvili all come out and likewise denounce Turkey for it's treatment of the Armenians.

On the same level, I'd actually like to see them all denounce Turkey's treatment of Orthodox in general.

[mabsoota]

great idea, but then the turks would slaughter large numbers of Christians.
for the same reason the coptic patriarch shenouda 3rd, never came out and said that the egyptian government was terrible for standing by while Christians were (and still are) killed. he merely said 'we are all good citizens, it's not acceptable for us to be killed, you must act.'
what we need is much prayer and much evangelism in these troubled areas, so the Christians learn to forgive their enemies and treat them with love.
for those who live far from those places, we should start by visiting other churches (my antiochian friend and i love each other's churches and tell all our friends how great the 'other' church is), especially those who are ethnically different. we should support those of our bishops who work hard towards greater unity by making it real at the lay-people's level.
most of the resistance to accepting other groups comes from lay people. so make friends with the prejudiced old lady at church, introducing her to your 'other' friends later on in the friendship. make contact with Christians in other groups (on the internet if there are no other churches near you) and be active in this area.
then we will really see progress.

[88Devin12]

great idea, but then the turks would slaughter large numbers of Christians.
for the same reason the coptic patriarch shenouda 3rd, never came out and said that the egyptian government was terrible for standing by while Christians were (and still are) killed. he merely said 'we are all good citizens, it's not acceptable for us to be killed, you must act.'
what we need is much prayer and much evangelism in these troubled areas, so the Christians learn to forgive their enemies and treat them with love.
for those who live far from those places, we should start by visiting other churches (my antiochian friend and i love each other's churches and tell all our friends how great the 'other' church is), especially those who are ethnically different. we should support those of our bishops who work hard towards greater unity by making it real at the lay-people's level.
most of the resistance to accepting other groups comes from lay people. so make friends with the prejudiced old lady at church, introducing her to your 'other' friends later on in the friendship. make contact with Christians in other groups (on the internet if there are no other churches near you) and be active in this area.
then we will really see progress.

Personally I don't think it would actually do much for the Turks and Turkey. I believe the main purpose behind it would be to improve relations and dialogue between Eastern Orthodox & Oriental Orthodox. While there are still Orthodox in Turkey, (unfortunately) thanks to the events of the last century, there are very few, and the only hierarch present in their nation is the Ecumenical Patriarch (and I think thanks to Russia & the EU, Turkey won't touch him... hopefully).

But I definitely agree with you!

There is something that definitely needs to happen with Turkey/Egypt, and war shouldn't be something we resort to...


I looked up the hierarchs that could issue such a joint statement...
(forgive me if I fudge-up the order)

Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople
Patriarch Ignatius IV of Antioch & Patriarch Ignatius Zakka of Antioch
Patriarch Kirill of Russia
Patriarch Ilia of Georgia
Catholicos Karekin of Armenia
Patriarch Maxim of Bulgaria
Archbishop Ieronymos of Greece

Now... Obviously having Patriarch Bartholomew on that list could pose a problem for him... (and probably the same for Catholicos Karekin and Armenians)

[mike]

If Patriarch Kirill, Patriarch Bartholomew and Patriarch Ilia came out and denounced Turkey for it's treatment of Armenia, I think maybe it could help set a good example, as well as improve relations.

They did.
http://www.mospat.ru/en/2010/03/17/news14623/
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/12/patriarch-bartholomew-we-are-treated-as-citizens-of-second-class-we-dont-feel-that-we-enjoy-our-full.html
http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/world/news/746/

[CoptoGeek]

http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/world/news/746/

Maybe a hopeful sign of change from Georgia.

[akimori makoto]

No pressure the Orthodox nations could muster would ever change Turkey because the idiot West, which it is intent on courting, continues to buy into its "we're a secular democracy" BS.

Just over this long weekend in Australia, Turkey was held up as a model for Islamic democracy in much of the mainstream media, just as it is every ANZAC day. Our foreign minister and ex-prime minister also recently described it as a bastion of tolerance.

It's easy to be a secular democracy when you set about ethnically cleansing anyone who might disagree with the majority opinion, isn't it? It's easy to be tolerant when there aren't any minorities left to tolerate, right?

Gah, makes my blood boil! It would be hilarious were the consequences not so dire.

Forgive me, brothers and sisters.

[88Devin12]

No pressure the Orthodox nations could muster would ever change Turkey because the idiot West, which it is intent on courting, continues to buy into its "we're a secular democracy" BS.

Just over this long weekend in Australia, Turkey was held up as a model for Islamic democracy in much of the mainstream media, just as it is every ANZAC day. Our foreign minister and ex-prime minister also recently described it as a bastion of tolerance.

It's easy to be a secular democracy when you set about ethnically cleansing anyone who might disagree with the majority opinion, isn't it? It's easy to be tolerant when there aren't any minorities left to tolerate, right?

Gah, makes my blood boil! It would be hilarious were the consequences not so dire.

Forgive me, brothers and sisters.

Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, I don't think Turkey would care, the main purpose of it would be to repair relations between Eastern Orthodox & Oriental Orthodox.