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Author Topic: Discerning Catholic Priesthood  (Read 5101 times) Average Rating: 0
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Paisius
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« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2011, 09:54:23 PM »


There is one book in particular I would recommend above all others. The Way of a Pilgrim absolutely changed my life. If you read it you will see why.

I was somewhat hesitant to read "novel" when I first heard of this book, but its been recommended so often that I can't ignore it.  +1 on the Phantom Regiment avatar by the way, I had always dreamed of marching there.  Did you?


I marched drum corp but never with Phantom. They have always been my favorite corp. This years repertoire is unbelievable. You should take a look at it.


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« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2011, 10:22:21 PM »

Christ is Risen!

What corner papist?
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« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2011, 11:15:27 PM »


Rather than focusing on fringe elements in the Catholic Church why not check with the Dominicans...They have Holy Apostle's Seminary
Interestingly enough, I am working on my masters degree through Holy Apostles and I agree. It's a fantastic and orthodox (little 'o') school.

Indeed, the Catholic spiritual and mystical tradition is a rich and inexhaustible treasure. Any fringe monastics who do Buddhist stuff are like those ignorant Americans who cannot even point out the USA on a map. They are cut off from their own tradition!

Such a shame--but happily any priories, convents or monasteries that do that crap do not get new recruits and are ageing into nonexistence while the communities that joyously explore their traditions are thriving.
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« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2011, 11:25:01 PM »


I suggest these things not to draw you off from Orthodoxy but to try to see one convert go with a more balanced and realistic view of the Church he is leaving behind.  It seems to be a rarity.

I can see that, for many cases. As far as Carmelites and Domincans go, the former are definitely not for me.  I feel a call to diocesan priesthood.  I'll check with the Domincan seminary though, I've heard nothing but good about their seminaries and work in general.

I am a spiritual daughter of Madre Teresa of Jesus to the marrow of my bones  Smiley Smiley Smiley...

...except I am wicked curious theologically...so the Dominicans do nicely for that!...

So was dear St. Teresa---think of the Dominicans with which she surrounded herself!  Smiley

Have you ever seen this Spanish miniseries? I finished it a couple of weeks ago.


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« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2011, 11:39:07 PM »

Look...We've had some awfully loose bishops over the past several generations but they are being replaced and with all of the irregularities the remnant perseveres and fights the good fight, at home, and in the parishes and with the chanceries.

I've seen a bishop pour the Blessed Blood of my Lord down the sewer drain.  I didn't loose my faith.  He is the one without faith...not me.  You just have to pull yourself together and know that there are good and holy people in the Catholic Church.  There are good and holy people in Orthodoxy.  

But there is no safe place but heaven and there are no perfect expressions of the faith that are and remain fixed forever.  Things always move and change.  That is why we need to keep those useless repetitions moving on into the next generation.  You cannot run away from it...You ought not in any event.


Hear hear! My father is a Protestant, and when things are not to his liking in his denomination, he just picks up and moves to another one with "fewer" problems. I decided that as a Catholic, I will not do that. And the grass is not greener. You see, you can't get away from sinful human beings, no matter what church you are part of.
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« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2011, 12:19:57 AM »

Quote from: lubeltri
You see, you can't get away from sinful human beings, no matter what church you are part of.

True.
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« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2011, 09:35:34 AM »

The Orthodox Church does not have within it the spiritual confusion, the spiritual crisis in monasteries that leads monastics to look for help from Buddhists and Hindus, etc, that is found among so many Roman Catholics.  The Orthodox Church believes that it is the true Church and contains the perfect expression of the faith and a perfect spiritual methodology and theology.  You may believe that “it doesn’t matter” whether one is Orthodox or Roman/Byzantine Catholic, but the Orthodox saints will tell you that you will not taste the spiritual grace found only in Orthodoxy while remaining outside of the Orthodox Church.   

Indeed! There were many reasons for my conversion from Byzantine Catholic to Holy Orthodoxy—mainly doctrinal reasons.  But this subject played a part in my journey.  It seemed at every corner, as a Catholic, I bumped into this non-Christian Eastern mumbo-jumbo.

Nuns who had shed the habit and begun to teach everything from reiki to yoga. 
Zen “Catholic” monasteries.
New age “Catholic” retreat centers.
“Catholic” yoga classes.

It was everywhere!

Blech!
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« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2011, 10:43:07 AM »


I suggest these things not to draw you off from Orthodoxy but to try to see one convert go with a more balanced and realistic view of the Church he is leaving behind.  It seems to be a rarity.

I can see that, for many cases. As far as Carmelites and Domincans go, the former are definitely not for me.  I feel a call to diocesan priesthood.  I'll check with the Domincan seminary though, I've heard nothing but good about their seminaries and work in general.

I am a spiritual daughter of Madre Teresa of Jesus to the marrow of my bones  Smiley Smiley Smiley...

...except I am wicked curious theologically...so the Dominicans do nicely for that!...

So was dear St. Teresa---think of the Dominicans with which she surrounded herself!  Smiley

Have you ever seen this Spanish miniseries? I finished it a couple of weeks ago.


Have not seen that series though I understand it is quite good.  Perhaps I should see if I can rent it.  

It was Madre Teresa and her Dominican confessors who led me to Evagrius the Solitary and then on to the eastern Catholic Church.  Cheesy  It also got me dumped out of the secular Carmelites though that is, in hindsight, a good thing, I should say a just thing given that my  vocation may not be a secular one.  

It was then that I learned some of the depth of the individual animus toward eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy in the Roman rite.   I was to eventually learn that the obverse is also true, and so have been able to see that we are in "balance" after all... Wink

M.

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« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2011, 10:47:07 AM »

The Orthodox Church does not have within it the spiritual confusion, the spiritual crisis in monasteries that leads monastics to look for help from Buddhists and Hindus, etc, that is found among so many Roman Catholics.  The Orthodox Church believes that it is the true Church and contains the perfect expression of the faith and a perfect spiritual methodology and theology.  You may believe that “it doesn’t matter” whether one is Orthodox or Roman/Byzantine Catholic, but the Orthodox saints will tell you that you will not taste the spiritual grace found only in Orthodoxy while remaining outside of the Orthodox Church.   

Indeed! There were many reasons for my conversion from Byzantine Catholic to Holy Orthodoxy—mainly doctrinal reasons.  But this subject played a part in my journey.  It seemed at every corner, as a Catholic, I bumped into this non-Christian Eastern mumbo-jumbo.

Nuns who had shed the habit and begun to teach everything from reiki to yoga. 
Zen “Catholic” monasteries.
New age “Catholic” retreat centers.
“Catholic” yoga classes.

It was everywhere!

Blech!

Hardly everywhere.  It is nowhere in my region of the Catholic world. 

I belong to a secular Carmelite listserv and from what I can determine, they are everywhere.  I am surprised that you did not find them...or the secular Dominicans, or the Franciscans, or the Benedictines who are faithful or the Jesuits who remain Catholic and faithful...

I am surprised that you would ignore the faithful who remain in the Catholic Church...numerically they are hard to miss in a head count...

M.
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« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2011, 11:07:04 AM »

Hardly everywhere. 

Oh yes...I certainly ran into many proper catholic laity and clergy.  But the odd stuff was everywhere, and in my region, seemed like a spreading virus.

I have seen none of it in Holy Orthodoxy (although it may exist in some isolated circumstances somewhere).
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« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2011, 11:26:59 AM »

Hardly everywhere. 

Oh yes...I certainly ran into many proper catholic laity and clergy.  But the odd stuff was everywhere, and in my region, seemed like a spreading virus.

I have seen none of it in Holy Orthodoxy (although it may exist in some isolated circumstances somewhere).

There are more opportunities than syncretic ones to lead a monastic astray. 
Don't cast your net so short  Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2011, 11:40:50 AM »

Nothing you have said here contradicts anything I have said in any way.

The last, of what I am calling his pedagogical books, is called, very simply, Contemplative Prayer...

I was going to type in the two pages of Chapter 1 of that text but if you are actually interested in doing something other than trying to prove that Father Louis was trying to establish something like Zen Catholicism...then you will find that text, and then we can talk.

Otherwise you are simply on a bully pulpit that has little to do with the reality that was Thomas Merton.



You want to see novelties in his teaching texts.  They are not there.  If anything experimental exists it is in his journals, in his openly experimental thoughts, but you'd play the devils own role to find them in his lessons to novices or in his primary teachings texts on contemplation, silence, or spiritual direction.

I DO find it in the way his life and work have been used by others but I've read every book of his that I have in this house and it is clean when it comes to the pedagogical texts.

Everything that he wrote for use in his monastery and in his order passed scrutiny. 

I have no idea who you are or what your fears are but you are in left field on this one as far as I am concerned.

If you are familiar with Thomas Merton, you are certainly aware of the struggles he had with the censorship of his works by his own Order, something which would explain perhaps less controversial statements in earlier works of his.  One of the last books to be published during his life time, “Zen and the Birds of Appetite”, perhaps shows that this censorship lessened with time, but it is also a pivotal work which opened up Roman Catholics to Zen.  Merton is considered to be very much a trail blazer in opening the Roman Catholic Church up to Zen, and paved the way for those like the Jesuit Roshi Robert Kennedy to attempt the path of “Zen Catholicism”.  Yes, in his journals one finds the most controversial statements, such as his “Asian Journals” which record his thoughts from the last days of his life, where he expressed the desire to "find a Tibetan guru and go in for Nyingmapa Tantric initiation."  In a paper Merton intended to give in Calcutta in October, 1968, he further expressed his thoughts in the following words:

Quote
I think we have now reached a stage of (long-overdue) religious maturity at which it may be possible for someone to remain perfectly faithful to a Christian and Western monastic commitment, and yet to learn in depth from, say, a Buddhist or Hindu discipline and experience. I believe that some of us need to do this in order to improve the quality of our own monastic life and even to help in the task of monastic renewal. . . .

http://www.monasticdialog.com/a.php?id=681

If all of his instructions to novices were quite sound from a post-Schism Roman Catholic perspective, and if Merton himself was esteemed as a “master” of Roman Catholic spirituality, his desire to spiritually embrace Eastern non-Christian practices and disciplines can only be seen as a culmination of all that came before.  In other words, when one sees the direction Merton took, one is not likely to embrace the “early stuff” and discard the conclusion of his journey, but rather one is likely to embrace the final “insights” as the culmination of his long journey.  If such a respected and experienced Trappist monk, after having immersed himself in all of the Roman Catholic spiritual and monastic writings, at the end of his days seeks to embrace Tibetan Buddhism and Zen, then why wouldn’t other Roman Catholics seek to follow his example and likewise embrace Tibetan Buddhism and Zen?  Even if the earlier writings appear “sound” from your perspective, one cannot separate them from the culmination of his journey as though they were written by a different person or were somehow separable in spirit from the journey which led him to the non-Christian East.  If one immerses himself even in his earlier writings, they will be infected by his “spirit”, and likely arrive at the same spiritual destination. 

Like the “Western Mystics”, Merton spoke of “contemplation” but did not provide a method, a comprehensive teaching on prayer.  Centering Prayer, Christian Meditation, and other such disciplines have been embraced as the “missing links”, the practical methods needed in order to arrive at that about which Merton and the “mystics” spoke.  The fact that these practices, both of Hindu origin and orientation, have been so readily embraced by Roman Catholic monastics is very telling, as is also Merton’s conviction that the adoption of non-Christian spiritual practices was a key to the renewal of Roman Catholic monasticism.  This says a great deal about Roman Catholic “spiritual” and monastic tradition. 

there are no perfect expressions of the faith that are and remain fixed forever
       

It is understandable that these convictions of yours are what keep you in the peculiar position of a “Byzantine Catholic”, but they are not convictions you will hear in the Orthodox Church.  The Orthodox Church does not have within it the spiritual confusion, the spiritual crisis in monasteries that leads monastics to look for help from Buddhists and Hindus, etc, that is found among so many Roman Catholics.  The Orthodox Church believes that it is the true Church and contains the perfect expression of the faith and a perfect spiritual methodology and theology.  You may believe that “it doesn’t matter” whether one is Orthodox or Roman/Byzantine Catholic, but the Orthodox saints will tell you that you will not taste the spiritual grace found only in Orthodoxy while remaining outside of the Orthodox Church.   


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« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2011, 11:56:13 AM »

Don't cast your net so short
There are many adjectives for my net.  But short is not one of them.  Wink
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« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2011, 11:59:57 AM »

Grace and Peace,

This quick embracing of Eastern Spiritual Practices was another reason I sought refuge within Holy Orthodoxy. It has everything you want in the way of spiritual practices. You don't need to go Far East. I often wonder why Rome didn't simply to just a little east and embrace the spirituality of their Eastern Brothers and Sisters than embrace an entirely alien practice like zen and hinduism?
Are you kidding me?

Roman Catholic Modern Spiritual Influences:

Fr. Bede Griffith (Hinduism)
Fr. Thomas Merton (Buddhism and Taoism)
Fr. Thomas Kenting (Buddhism)

I don't know how many Catholic Churches teach Yoga but many do. How many teach the Prayer of the Heart? None that I know of... that is my point.

LOL. First you suggest that the Church of Rome has accepted these practices, which she most certainly has not, and then you present some cooks as if they are the norm. LOL You haven't even left the Church yet, and you are already practicing anti-Catholic polemics.
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« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2011, 12:05:15 PM »

When I was a child my grandfather would haul us all over the east coast to attend the Cavalcade of Champions.  Those trips are some of my most favorite memories.  I love Drum and Bugle Corps and Precision Drill Teams...from that time till the present.


There is one book in particular I would recommend above all others. The Way of a Pilgrim absolutely changed my life. If you read it you will see why.

I was somewhat hesitant to read "novel" when I first heard of this book, but its been recommended so often that I can't ignore it.  +1 on the Phantom Regiment avatar by the way, I had always dreamed of marching there.  Did you?
[/quote


I marched drum corp but never with Phantom. They have always been my favorite corp. This years repertoire is unbelievable. You should take a look at it.


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« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2011, 12:49:24 PM »

LOL. First you suggest that the Church of Rome has accepted these practices, which she most certainly has not, and then you present some cooks as if they are the norm. LOL You haven't even left the Church yet, and you are already practicing anti-Catholic polemics.
Oh come on, Papist. Don't you know that practically every parish has clown masses, prays to buddha, and worships the supreme pontiff? Where have you been? Tongue
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« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2011, 01:37:53 PM »

The Orthodox Church does not have within it the spiritual confusion, the spiritual crisis in monasteries that leads monastics to look for help from Buddhists and Hindus, etc, that is found among so many Roman Catholics.  The Orthodox Church believes that it is the true Church and contains the perfect expression of the faith and a perfect spiritual methodology and theology.  You may believe that “it doesn’t matter” whether one is Orthodox or Roman/Byzantine Catholic, but the Orthodox saints will tell you that you will not taste the spiritual grace found only in Orthodoxy while remaining outside of the Orthodox Church.   

Indeed! There were many reasons for my conversion from Byzantine Catholic to Holy Orthodoxy—mainly doctrinal reasons.  But this subject played a part in my journey.  It seemed at every corner, as a Catholic, I bumped into this non-Christian Eastern mumbo-jumbo.

Nuns who had shed the habit and begun to teach everything from reiki to yoga. 
Zen “Catholic” monasteries.
New age “Catholic” retreat centers.
“Catholic” yoga classes.

It was everywhere!

Blech!

This is so true Mickey... and you know I don't agree with you all too time ;-)
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« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2011, 01:41:34 PM »

Grace and Peace,

This quick embracing of Eastern Spiritual Practices was another reason I sought refuge within Holy Orthodoxy. It has everything you want in the way of spiritual practices. You don't need to go Far East. I often wonder why Rome didn't simply to just a little east and embrace the spirituality of their Eastern Brothers and Sisters than embrace an entirely alien practice like zen and hinduism?
Are you kidding me?

Roman Catholic Modern Spiritual Influences:

Fr. Bede Griffith (Hinduism)
Fr. Thomas Merton (Buddhism and Taoism)
Fr. Thomas Kenting (Buddhism)

I don't know how many Catholic Churches teach Yoga but many do. How many teach the Prayer of the Heart? None that I know of... that is my point.

LOL. First you suggest that the Church of Rome has accepted these practices, which she most certainly has not, and then you present some cooks as if they are the norm. LOL You haven't even left the Church yet, and you are already practicing anti-Catholic polemics.

What is the Roman Catholic Church if not what you find in your local Parishes? I'm not talking just one parish, I'm talking about many... I don't see Priests shunning these Parishes... nor those heading up these Eastern Practices. Everyone seems to think everything is okay.

Where is the 'one' in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church with regards to the Church of Rome?
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« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2011, 01:44:35 PM »

Grace and Peace,

This quick embracing of Eastern Spiritual Practices was another reason I sought refuge within Holy Orthodoxy. It has everything you want in the way of spiritual practices. You don't need to go Far East. I often wonder why Rome didn't simply to just a little east and embrace the spirituality of their Eastern Brothers and Sisters than embrace an entirely alien practice like zen and hinduism?
Are you kidding me?

Roman Catholic Modern Spiritual Influences:

Fr. Bede Griffith (Hinduism)
Fr. Thomas Merton (Buddhism and Taoism)
Fr. Thomas Kenting (Buddhism)

I don't know how many Catholic Churches teach Yoga but many do. How many teach the Prayer of the Heart? None that I know of... that is my point.

LOL. First you suggest that the Church of Rome has accepted these practices, which she most certainly has not, and then you present some cooks as if they are the norm. LOL You haven't even left the Church yet, and you are already practicing anti-Catholic polemics.

What is the Roman Catholic Church if not what you find in your local Parishes? I'm not talking just one parish, I'm talking about many... I don't see Priests shunning these Parishes... nor those heading up these Eastern Practices. Everyone seems to think everything is okay.

Where is the 'one' in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church with regards to the Church of Rome?
So you really think that that Magesterium approves of these things? That's rich.
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« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2011, 01:44:56 PM »

Hardly everywhere. 

Oh yes...I certainly ran into many proper catholic laity and clergy.  But the odd stuff was everywhere, and in my region, seemed like a spreading virus.

I have seen none of it in Holy Orthodoxy (although it may exist in some isolated circumstances somewhere).

Well if you lived on the left coast, I wouldnt be surprised to see a whole lot of that. I had a Benedictine Priest recomend Thomas Merton to me, not to mention he went ballistic when I mentioned my preference for the EF mass.  And this is in Cleveland, Ohio away from Kali.   After that Episode I limited my contact with the group(to be fair there is a Priest there that does infact celebrate the EF mass and he is the main one that does it in the Cleveland area so go figure....).

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« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2011, 01:47:01 PM »

Hardly everywhere. 

Oh yes...I certainly ran into many proper catholic laity and clergy.  But the odd stuff was everywhere, and in my region, seemed like a spreading virus.

I have seen none of it in Holy Orthodoxy (although it may exist in some isolated circumstances somewhere).

Well if you lived on the left coast, I wouldnt be surprised to see a whole lot of that. I had a Benedictine Priest recomend Thomas Merton to me, not to mention he went ballistic when I mentioned my preference for the EF mass.  And this is in Cleveland, Ohio away from Kali.   After that Episode I limited my contact with the group(to be fair there is a Priest there that does infact celebrate the EF mass and he is the main one that does it in the Cleveland area so go figure....).


Not my experience as a Catholic.com
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« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2011, 01:53:54 PM »

Well if you lived on the left coast, I wouldnt be surprised to see a whole lot of that. I had a Benedictine Priest recomend Thomas Merton to me, not to mention he went ballistic when I mentioned my preference for the EF mass.  And this is in Cleveland, Ohio away from Kali.   After that Episode I limited my contact with the group(to be fair there is a Priest there that does infact celebrate the EF mass and he is the main one that does it in the Cleveland area so go figure....).

On the contrary. It is widespread on the East Coast also.  Especially Ohio!!!
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« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2011, 01:56:22 PM »

This is so true Mickey... and you know I don't agree with you all the time ;-)

Yes. It is so true......and so sad.  It used to break my heart when I was on the Latin side.  Undecided

Good to see you again Ignatius!

Christ is Risen!
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« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2011, 02:05:58 PM »

What is the Roman Catholic Church if not what you find in your local Parishes? I'm not talking just one parish, I'm talking about many... I don't see Priests shunning these Parishes... nor those heading up these Eastern Practices. Everyone seems to think everything is okay.

Where is the 'one' in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church with regards to the Church of Rome?
Well if you can cite personal experiences as a valid reason for criticizing the Church I can just as easily say that you have no reason to criticize the Church based on my personal experience of Catholicism (which has been very good).
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« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2011, 02:09:58 PM »

What is the Roman Catholic Church if not what you find in your local Parishes? I'm not talking just one parish, I'm talking about many... I don't see Priests shunning these Parishes... nor those heading up these Eastern Practices. Everyone seems to think everything is okay.

Where is the 'one' in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church with regards to the Church of Rome?
Well if you can cite personal experiences as a valid reason for criticizing the Church I can just as easily say that you have no reason to criticize the Church based on my personal experience of Catholicism (which has been very good).
Well stated.
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« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2011, 02:10:21 PM »

Grace and Peace,

This quick embracing of Eastern Spiritual Practices was another reason I sought refuge within Holy Orthodoxy. It has everything you want in the way of spiritual practices. You don't need to go Far East. I often wonder why Rome didn't simply to just a little east and embrace the spirituality of their Eastern Brothers and Sisters than embrace an entirely alien practice like zen and hinduism?
Are you kidding me?

Roman Catholic Modern Spiritual Influences:

Fr. Bede Griffith (Hinduism)
Fr. Thomas Merton (Buddhism and Taoism)
Fr. Thomas Kenting (Buddhism)

I don't know how many Catholic Churches teach Yoga but many do. How many teach the Prayer of the Heart? None that I know of... that is my point.

LOL. First you suggest that the Church of Rome has accepted these practices, which she most certainly has not, and then you present some cooks as if they are the norm. LOL You haven't even left the Church yet, and you are already practicing anti-Catholic polemics.

What is the Roman Catholic Church if not what you find in your local Parishes? I'm not talking just one parish, I'm talking about many... I don't see Priests shunning these Parishes... nor those heading up these Eastern Practices. Everyone seems to think everything is okay.

Where is the 'one' in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church with regards to the Church of Rome?
So you really think that that Magesterium approves of these things? That's rich.

Show me where they have been condemned by the Bishops or the Vatican? Everyone wants to say that this is not right and Clown Masses shouldn't happen... but show me where a Bishop has stepped in if this stuff is not accepted? I don't see it in my Dioceses.
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« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2011, 02:11:10 PM »

Grace and Peace,

This quick embracing of Eastern Spiritual Practices was another reason I sought refuge within Holy Orthodoxy. It has everything you want in the way of spiritual practices. You don't need to go Far East. I often wonder why Rome didn't simply to just a little east and embrace the spirituality of their Eastern Brothers and Sisters than embrace an entirely alien practice like zen and hinduism?
Are you kidding me?

Roman Catholic Modern Spiritual Influences:

Fr. Bede Griffith (Hinduism)
Fr. Thomas Merton (Buddhism and Taoism)
Fr. Thomas Kenting (Buddhism)

I don't know how many Catholic Churches teach Yoga but many do. How many teach the Prayer of the Heart? None that I know of... that is my point.

LOL. First you suggest that the Church of Rome has accepted these practices, which she most certainly has not, and then you present some cooks as if they are the norm. LOL You haven't even left the Church yet, and you are already practicing anti-Catholic polemics.

What is the Roman Catholic Church if not what you find in your local Parishes? I'm not talking just one parish, I'm talking about many... I don't see Priests shunning these Parishes... nor those heading up these Eastern Practices. Everyone seems to think everything is okay.

Where is the 'one' in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church with regards to the Church of Rome?
So you really think that that Magesterium approves of these things? That's rich.

Show me where they have been condemned by the Bishops or the Vatican? Everyone wants to say that this is not right and Clown Masses shouldn't happen... but show me where a Bishop has stepped in if this stuff is not accepted? I don't see it in my Dioceses.
Ever read Dominus Iesus? It's pretty clear on where the true faith is, as are many many other Catholic documents.
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« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2011, 02:14:11 PM »

Grace and Peace,

This quick embracing of Eastern Spiritual Practices was another reason I sought refuge within Holy Orthodoxy. It has everything you want in the way of spiritual practices. You don't need to go Far East. I often wonder why Rome didn't simply to just a little east and embrace the spirituality of their Eastern Brothers and Sisters than embrace an entirely alien practice like zen and hinduism?
Are you kidding me?

Roman Catholic Modern Spiritual Influences:

Fr. Bede Griffith (Hinduism)
Fr. Thomas Merton (Buddhism and Taoism)
Fr. Thomas Kenting (Buddhism)

I don't know how many Catholic Churches teach Yoga but many do. How many teach the Prayer of the Heart? None that I know of... that is my point.

LOL. First you suggest that the Church of Rome has accepted these practices, which she most certainly has not, and then you present some cooks as if they are the norm. LOL You haven't even left the Church yet, and you are already practicing anti-Catholic polemics.

What is the Roman Catholic Church if not what you find in your local Parishes? I'm not talking just one parish, I'm talking about many... I don't see Priests shunning these Parishes... nor those heading up these Eastern Practices. Everyone seems to think everything is okay.

Where is the 'one' in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church with regards to the Church of Rome?
So you really think that that Magesterium approves of these things? That's rich.

Show me where they have been condemned by the Bishops or the Vatican? Everyone wants to say that this is not right and Clown Masses shouldn't happen... but show me where a Bishop has stepped in if this stuff is not accepted? I don't see it in my Dioceses.
Ever read Dominus Iesus? It's pretty clear on where the true faith is, as are many many other Catholic documents.

I'm not talking about what is written... there are many things written that simply aren't lived in the Catholic Church. I'm just done attempting to live me faith out of a book... I want to have a real faith that is lived out in the community. I find that in Holy Orthodoxy. And yes... converting is very painful but I just can not longer have a faith of one.
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« Reply #73 on: April 28, 2011, 02:17:23 PM »

Grace and Peace,

This quick embracing of Eastern Spiritual Practices was another reason I sought refuge within Holy Orthodoxy. It has everything you want in the way of spiritual practices. You don't need to go Far East. I often wonder why Rome didn't simply to just a little east and embrace the spirituality of their Eastern Brothers and Sisters than embrace an entirely alien practice like zen and hinduism?
Are you kidding me?

Roman Catholic Modern Spiritual Influences:

Fr. Bede Griffith (Hinduism)
Fr. Thomas Merton (Buddhism and Taoism)
Fr. Thomas Kenting (Buddhism)

I don't know how many Catholic Churches teach Yoga but many do. How many teach the Prayer of the Heart? None that I know of... that is my point.

LOL. First you suggest that the Church of Rome has accepted these practices, which she most certainly has not, and then you present some cooks as if they are the norm. LOL You haven't even left the Church yet, and you are already practicing anti-Catholic polemics.

What is the Roman Catholic Church if not what you find in your local Parishes? I'm not talking just one parish, I'm talking about many... I don't see Priests shunning these Parishes... nor those heading up these Eastern Practices. Everyone seems to think everything is okay.

Where is the 'one' in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church with regards to the Church of Rome?
So you really think that that Magesterium approves of these things? That's rich.

Show me where they have been condemned by the Bishops or the Vatican? Everyone wants to say that this is not right and Clown Masses shouldn't happen... but show me where a Bishop has stepped in if this stuff is not accepted? I don't see it in my Dioceses.
Ever read Dominus Iesus? It's pretty clear on where the true faith is, as are many many other Catholic documents.

I'm not talking about what is written... there are many things written that simply aren't lived in the Catholic Church. I'm just done attempting to live me faith out of a book... I want to have a real faith that is lived out in the community. I find that in Holy Orthodoxy. And yes... converting is very painful but I just can not longer have a faith of one.
Catholics probably felt that way during the Arian Crisis. I just don't understand your experience of the Catholic faith. I participate in a vibrant and orthodox parish.
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« Reply #74 on: April 28, 2011, 02:24:34 PM »


Catholics probably felt that way during the Arian Crisis. I just don't understand your experience of the Catholic faith. I participate in a vibrant and orthodox parish.

Well, see that makes me even more upset because where I am at... I just can't find an orthodox Catholic Parish... I have to assume that it's all like this and I blame the whole Church because if this kind of stuff was and is wrong... it should have been dealt with... if you are truly in communion with these parishes... then there really isn't one faith.
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« Reply #75 on: April 28, 2011, 02:27:34 PM »


Catholics probably felt that way during the Arian Crisis. I just don't understand your experience of the Catholic faith. I participate in a vibrant and orthodox parish.

Well, see that makes me even more upset because where I am at... I just can't find an orthodox Catholic Parish... I have to assume that it's all like this and I blame the whole Church because if this kind of stuff was and is wrong... it should have been dealt with... if you are truly in communion with these parishes... then there really isn't one faith.
Oh, so bad priests and bad Catholics mean that there is no really one faith? Well, then the minute you meet a bad Orthodox priest, I suppose you will have to conclude that the EOs don't really have one faith either. Why don't you bring up the contraception issue with different Orthodox priests? Have fun with that.
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« Reply #76 on: April 28, 2011, 02:30:29 PM »

Show me where they have been condemned by the Bishops or the Vatican? Everyone wants to say that this is not right and Clown Masses shouldn't happen... but show me where a Bishop has stepped in if this stuff is not accepted? I don't see it in my Dioceses.

I'm not talking about what is written... there are many things written that simply aren't lived in the Catholic Church. I'm just done attempting to live me faith out of a book... I want to have a real faith that is lived out in the community. I find that in Holy Orthodoxy. And yes... converting is very painful but I just can not longer have a faith of one.
I don't understand your line of thinking. If there is a crisis within the Church (which it sounds like there is, at least in some parts of the Church) the answer is not to leave. Luther did that. There were definitely abuses going on in the 1500s and the Church was definitely in the midst of a crisis then as well. That should not be a surprise. As long as the Church exists it's going to be constantly under enemy fire because Satan hates the Church and will always try to destroy it (yet never succeed).

If these horrible things are occurring in the Church as you have said, why don't you stay within the Catholic Church but start actively trying to help and defend the Church from the inside? After all, the Church is not just the clergy but laypeople too. If these abuses are occurring and nothing is being done about it then the laity needs to step up and contact the Bishop about it. If no one else is doing it you should consider doing it. The Bishop not doing anything could simply be because he is not aware of what is going on.
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« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2011, 02:31:29 PM »

Well, see that makes me even more upset because where I am at... I just can't find an orthodox Catholic Parish... I have to assume that it's all like this and I blame the whole Church because if this kind of stuff was and is wrong... it should have been dealt with... if you are truly in communion with these parishes... then there really isn't one faith.
The Apostles didn't all despair and abandon the Faith because of Judas.
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« Reply #78 on: April 28, 2011, 02:32:05 PM »


Catholics probably felt that way during the Arian Crisis. I just don't understand your experience of the Catholic faith. I participate in a vibrant and orthodox parish.

Well, see that makes me even more upset because where I am at... I just can't find an orthodox Catholic Parish... I have to assume that it's all like this and I blame the whole Church because if this kind of stuff was and is wrong... it should have been dealt with... if you are truly in communion with these parishes... then there really isn't one faith.
Oh, so bad priests and bad Catholics mean that there is no really one faith? Well, then the minute you meet a bad Orthodox priest, I suppose you will have to conclude that the EOs don't really have one faith either. Why don't you bring up the contraception issue with different Orthodox priests? Have fun with that.
Bring up Cardinal Law with different followers of the Vatican. Have fun with that: we have a multimillionaire benefactor to our Church who is not a communicant because he communes with the eVatican, but says he doesn't want his almsgiving going to pay legal fees and settlements.

And btw, you can bring up the contraception issue with different priests of the Vatican, and have just as much fun.
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« Reply #79 on: April 28, 2011, 02:33:19 PM »


Catholics probably felt that way during the Arian Crisis. I just don't understand your experience of the Catholic faith. I participate in a vibrant and orthodox parish.

Well, see that makes me even more upset because where I am at... I just can't find an orthodox Catholic Parish... I have to assume that it's all like this and I blame the whole Church because if this kind of stuff was and is wrong... it should have been dealt with... if you are truly in communion with these parishes... then there really isn't one faith.
Oh, so bad priests and bad Catholics mean that there is no really one faith? Well, then the minute you meet a bad Orthodox priest, I suppose you will have to conclude that the EOs don't really have one faith either. Why don't you bring up the contraception issue with different Orthodox priests? Have fun with that.
Bring up Cardinal Law with different followers of the Vatican. Have fun with that: we have a multimillionaire benefactor to our Church who is not a communicant because he communes with the eVatican, but says he doesn't want his almsgiving going to pay legal fees and settlements.

And btw, you can bring up the contraception issue with different priests of the Vatican, and have just as much fun.
Perhaps you can. But it demonstrates that just becuase there are dissenters, (like Izzy  here, who doesn't believe in the Incarnation), that doesn't mean that there is no oneness as regards the faith.
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« Reply #80 on: April 28, 2011, 02:34:11 PM »


Catholics probably felt that way during the Arian Crisis. I just don't understand your experience of the Catholic faith. I participate in a vibrant and orthodox parish.

Well, see that makes me even more upset because where I am at... I just can't find an orthodox Catholic Parish... I have to assume that it's all like this and I blame the whole Church because if this kind of stuff was and is wrong... it should have been dealt with... if you are truly in communion with these parishes... then there really isn't one faith.

Do not let us upset you.  IF you cannot find a parish where you are fed spiritually and where you are confident that your children will learn the faith then you have an obligation to your family to find them a spiritual and ecclesiastical home where there are graced sacraments.

Relax.  You are doing the best you can with where you are now.
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« Reply #81 on: April 28, 2011, 02:37:01 PM »


Catholics probably felt that way during the Arian Crisis. I just don't understand your experience of the Catholic faith. I participate in a vibrant and orthodox parish.

Well, see that makes me even more upset because where I am at... I just can't find an orthodox Catholic Parish... I have to assume that it's all like this and I blame the whole Church because if this kind of stuff was and is wrong... it should have been dealt with... if you are truly in communion with these parishes... then there really isn't one faith.

Do not let us upset you.  IF you cannot find a parish where you are fed spiritually and where you are confident that your children will learn the faith then you have an obligation to your family to find them a spiritual and ecclesiastical home where there are graced sacraments.

Relax.  You are doing the best you can with where you are now.
I still think it would be a better example for his family if he contacted his Bishop and helped restore orthodoxy to his Catholic parish rather than becoming Eastern Orthodox.
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« Reply #82 on: April 28, 2011, 02:46:14 PM »


Catholics probably felt that way during the Arian Crisis. I just don't understand your experience of the Catholic faith. I participate in a vibrant and orthodox parish.

Well, see that makes me even more upset because where I am at... I just can't find an orthodox Catholic Parish... I have to assume that it's all like this and I blame the whole Church because if this kind of stuff was and is wrong... it should have been dealt with... if you are truly in communion with these parishes... then there really isn't one faith.

Do not let us upset you.  IF you cannot find a parish where you are fed spiritually and where you are confident that your children will learn the faith then you have an obligation to your family to find them a spiritual and ecclesiastical home where there are graced sacraments.

Relax.  You are doing the best you can with where you are now.
I still think it would be a better example for his family if he contacted his Bishop and helped restore orthodoxy to his Catholic parish rather than becoming Eastern Orthodox.

You may be right.  But then again God does not call all to martyrdom...and by the same token he gives us all different gifts and His Providence sets us all upon varying paths.
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« Reply #83 on: April 28, 2011, 04:37:25 PM »

Christus resurrexit!

Catholics probably felt that way during the Arian Crisis. I just don't understand your experience of the Catholic faith. I participate in a vibrant and orthodox parish.

Well, see that makes me even more upset because where I am at... I just can't find an orthodox Catholic Parish... I have to assume that it's all like this and I blame the whole Church because if this kind of stuff was and is wrong... it should have been dealt with... if you are truly in communion with these parishes... then there really isn't one faith.
Oh, so bad priests and bad Catholics mean that there is no really one faith? Well, then the minute you meet a bad Orthodox priest, I suppose you will have to conclude that the EOs don't really have one faith either. Why don't you bring up the contraception issue with different Orthodox priests? Have fun with that.
Bring up Cardinal Law with different followers of the Vatican. Have fun with that: we have a multimillionaire benefactor to our Church who is not a communicant because he communes with the eVatican, but says he doesn't want his almsgiving going to pay legal fees and settlements.

And btw, you can bring up the contraception issue with different priests of the Vatican, and have just as much fun.
Perhaps you can. But it demonstrates that just becuase there are dissenters, (like Izzy  here, who doesn't believe in the Incarnation),
I was tempted to report to a moderator, but I think I would rather like to see you try to make up your slander.

that doesn't mean that there is no oneness as regards the faith.
It does show that the Ultramontanist faith is one in vain.
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« Reply #84 on: April 28, 2011, 04:52:25 PM »

Talking to people on the internet about people you know demeaning them, is that not called gossip?
Shouldn't you talk to the priests in question? How many of you people - talking all these years about how the Church has committed treason - have talked to priests and bishops about these things? You can battle with ignorants, yet are afraid to be proved ignorant before someone who has theological education. Studying grade school catechisms from 1890 does not make you a Master of Theology. Is it that hard that Catholics have to accept the liturgy as it is?
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« Reply #85 on: April 28, 2011, 05:00:00 PM »

It does show that the Ultramontanist faith is one in vain.
Good thing no one here is an ultramontanist then.
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« Reply #86 on: April 28, 2011, 05:02:46 PM »

Talking to people on the internet about people you know demeaning them, is that not called gossip?
Shouldn't you talk to the priests in question? How many of you people - talking all these years about how the Church has committed treason - have talked to priests and bishops about these things? You can battle with ignorants, yet are afraid to be proved ignorant before someone who has theological education. Studying grade school catechisms from 1890 does not make you a Master of Theology. Is it that hard that Catholics have to accept the liturgy as it is?

This should be post of the month.
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« Reply #87 on: April 28, 2011, 05:09:48 PM »

Christus resurrexit!
It does show that the Ultramontanist faith is one in vain.
Good thing no one here is an ultramontanist then.
You've renounced Pastor Aeternus?
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« Reply #88 on: April 28, 2011, 05:17:57 PM »

If I interject, since this is a discussion board for opinions after all, I don't think that it's a good idea for Ignatius to convert if he doesn't have issues with the dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church. Everything sounds more practical. on his end, which makes sense, but it's not the right thing to do.

I personally would have returned to Roman Catholicism on my Mom's side of the family no matter what if I would have thought it to be true, and the diocese where I grew up was pretty much a liturgical wasteland. The priests were kind from what I can recall. But the important thing is what is true, not the immediate inconveniences we face.

For example, when I was considering become Orthodox, I visited all of the parishes (about eight) in my city to get a feeling for how Orthodoxy looked on the ground in all different kinds of situations. I wanted to know I could be faithful in the worse of environments in case I moved and I only had one "bad" option or none at all. There was a particular Serbian Church in the city with almost no English, and I later found out that the priest there was a belligerent drunk who would yell at acolytes behind the iconostasis, scold people severely during confessions, and almost never make communion available to people, really only at Christmas, Easter and a few other times. Even if you were keeping all of the church fasts and confessing (and getting yelled at) regularly, still no communion.

Anyway, all of that to say that I decided that even if this was the only church available to me then I would still go there, because I knew deep in my heart that Orthodoxy was the true faith established by Christ and remaining through the centuries. It just so happens that my city offers many many reverent Latin masses in traditionalist communities. I could have enjoyed those places and gotten a far more personal feeling of spiritual benefit out of them than at the Serbian church that I just mentioned. But at the end of the day I just couldn't buy into Papal Supremacy and Papal Infallibility as dogmatic truths of the Catholic faith. I just couldn't do it, because it's not the story I saw in history. Sure there were traces of their development over time, but I didn't see them as anything essential to the Catholic faith.

Anyway, all of that to say that I was fortunate to have the best of both worlds: a great parish with a loving priest to help me grow, and it was Eastern Orthodox. But everything that Ignatius is saying seems to have little to do with objecting to Roman Catholic teaching, which makes me think that any conversion might not be permanent or honest. For example, were he to move to another city after conversion with all that he wanted in the RCC of his previous town, would he "switch back"? I think that ultimately the decision has to be in pursuit of Truth no matter where it leads, even if it is not practically beneficial. When I became Orthodox, I became spiritually separated and alienated from my wife. But it was for His Truth, and He said that He would divide households, so I must be faithful to Truth no matter the immediate circumstances. IF we don't have Truth, what do we have?
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« Reply #89 on: April 29, 2011, 10:05:42 AM »

I was tempted to report to a moderator, but I think I would rather like to see you try to make up your slander.
What slander? You said that you are an existentialist and existentialism is intrinsically incompatible with the doctrine of the Incarnation.
It does show that the Ultramontanist faith is one in vain.
Oh, I see, you are just completely biased.
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