Author Topic: Sabellianism  (Read 66368 times)

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Offline Papist

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #90 on: May 20, 2011, 12:45:44 AM »
And maybe the Trinity has nothing to do with Mathematical functions, and more to do with the infinite God who is beyond us and our understanding.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #91 on: May 20, 2011, 06:00:08 AM »
Or 1x1x1=1

I already did the multiplication nonsense theory, and you didn't take into account Jesus becoming God-man ;)

And maybe the Trinity has nothing to do with Mathematical functions, and more to do with the infinite God who is beyond us and our understanding.

Someone must not have sent you the memo. Catholics are supposed to throw out mystery and overanalyze everything...  :-*

Offline Papist

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #92 on: May 20, 2011, 10:10:31 AM »
Someone must not have sent you the memo. Catholics are supposed to throw out mystery and overanalyze everything...  :-*

« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 10:13:36 AM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #93 on: May 20, 2011, 10:56:05 AM »
And maybe the Trinity has nothing to do with Mathematical functions, and more to do with the infinite God who is beyond us and our understanding.
That too, but I still say mine is closest to correct. :P

Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #94 on: May 20, 2011, 02:08:18 PM »

Again, you are mischaracterizing the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity does not include the idea that there is a unity of gods, because we believe in only one God (From the Creed: "I believe in one God"). The doctrine of the Trinity does not include the idea that God could be divided into parts because we profess that the members of the Trinity are "one in essence and undivided" (from the Divine Liturgy).


"..the members of the Trinity..."  - your words.
What is your point? Perhaps I should have been more careful and said the Persons of the Trinity. But either way, what is your point? what is more, you haven't really addressed the substance of my posts.


We are talking about how to describe God.  Jesus said God is one.  The churches says God is a trinity.  Is the concept of God expressed by Jesus the same as the Christian concept of God?
Yes or no?

Offline Papist

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #95 on: May 20, 2011, 02:09:36 PM »

Again, you are mischaracterizing the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity does not include the idea that there is a unity of gods, because we believe in only one God (From the Creed: "I believe in one God"). The doctrine of the Trinity does not include the idea that God could be divided into parts because we profess that the members of the Trinity are "one in essence and undivided" (from the Divine Liturgy).


"..the members of the Trinity..."  - your words.
What is your point? Perhaps I should have been more careful and said the Persons of the Trinity. But either way, what is your point? what is more, you haven't really addressed the substance of my posts.


We are talking about how to describe God.  Jesus said God is one.  The churches says God is a trinity.  Is the concept of God expressed by Jesus the same as the Christian concept of God?
Yes or no?
Yes, becaue the doctrine of the Trinity teaches that there is only one God. :) That is all.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #96 on: May 20, 2011, 02:12:57 PM »

So, from your perspective, it is impossible for God to simultaneously and eternally exist as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit while still being One God?

Here is how I would characterize the situation.  Lets say you are my neighbor.  And you meet me in front of our house's and you call me Leisa.  Then, the next time we meet is at a halloween party and I'm dressed as Lady Godiva.  And another time you meet me at my work where I am dressed in a nurses uniform and you call me nurse.
Ok.  Are there three Leisa's?  Or is there one Leisa in three different situations?

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #97 on: May 20, 2011, 03:12:07 PM »

So, from your perspective, it is impossible for God to simultaneously and eternally exist as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit while still being One God?

Here is how I would characterize the situation.  Lets say you are my neighbor.  And you meet me in front of our house's and you call me Leisa.  Then, the next time we meet is at a halloween party and I'm dressed as Lady Godiva.  And another time you meet me at my work where I am dressed in a nurses uniform and you call me nurse.
Ok.  Are there three Leisa's?  Or is there one Leisa in three different situations?

Let's say that there's one God, the Father Almighty. And this one God exists eternally together with His Word and Spirit. He sends down his Word to fashion and heal creation, His Spirit moves upon the face of the deep and fills all things.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 03:13:08 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #98 on: May 20, 2011, 06:05:44 PM »

So, from your perspective, it is impossible for God to simultaneously and eternally exist as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit while still being One God?

Here is how I would characterize the situation.  Lets say you are my neighbor.  And you meet me in front of our house's and you call me Leisa.  Then, the next time we meet is at a halloween party and I'm dressed as Lady Godiva.  And another time you meet me at my work where I am dressed in a nurses uniform and you call me nurse.
Ok.  Are there three Leisa's?  Or is there one Leisa in three different situations?
Your analogy is flawed because you are a finite being as opposed to the Almighty and Infinite God.

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #99 on: May 20, 2011, 06:23:39 PM »

So, from your perspective, it is impossible for God to simultaneously and eternally exist as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit while still being One God?

Here is how I would characterize the situation.  Lets say you are my neighbor.  And you meet me in front of our house's and you call me Leisa.  Then, the next time we meet is at a halloween party and I'm dressed as Lady Godiva.  And another time you meet me at my work where I am dressed in a nurses uniform and you call me nurse.
Ok.  Are there three Leisa's?  Or is there one Leisa in three different situations?

Who did Jesus pray to?

The Holy Spirit descended on Jesus at his Baptism and the Father speaks expressing His son. Was this confusion?

I understand you reject one of the Gospels to support your theory. Perhaps also because John has this:
John 14
Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God: believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house there are many mansions. If not, I would have told you: because I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I shall go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself: that where I am, you also may be. 4 And whither I go you know: and the way you know. 5 Thomas said to him: Lord, we know not whither you go. And how can we know the way? 6 Jesus said to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me. 7 If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him. And you have seen him. 8 Philip said to him: Lord, show us the Father; and it is enough for us. 9 Jesus said to him: Have I been so long a time with you and have you not known me? Philip, he that sees me sees the Father also. How do you say: Show us the Father? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abides in me, he does the works. 11 Believe you not that I am in the Father and the Father in me? 12 Otherwise believe for the very works' sake. Amen, amen, I say to you, he that believes in me, the works that I do, he also shall do: and greater than these shall he do. 13 Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you shall ask me anything in my name, that I will do.

If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever: 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, nor knows him. But you shall know him; because he shall abide with you and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while and the world sees me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live. 20 In that day you shall know that I am in my Father: and you in me, and I in you. 21 He that has my commandments and keeps them; he it is that loves me. And he that loves me shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas says to him, not the Iscariot: Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world? 23 Jesus answered and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word. And my Father will love him and we will come to him and will make our abode with him. 24 He that loves me not keeps not my words. And the word which you have heard is not mine; but the Father's who sent me. 25 These things have I spoken to you, abiding with you. 26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

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Offline Anba Bola

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #100 on: May 20, 2011, 08:24:05 PM »
Let's say there is one tree. The tree has the branches (with the leaves etc.), the trunk and roots, and the life. Yet how many trees do we have? One. Yet the leaves are not the trunk, and neither are they the same thing as the life of the tree.

Granted this is an oversimplification and does have many holes, but it does show an example of three being one, while each being distinct. In the same way, you have a spirit, soul and body. Your spirit is not your soul, your soul isn't your body, but you are one Leisa, not three. Again this is an analogy and does not perfectly capture the trinity in any way.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #101 on: May 21, 2011, 12:40:25 AM »
While your points are true and somewhat humorous, I was trying to make the point that 3 persons make a single god.

That's a sort of weird phrasing of it. What do you mean by "make"?

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #102 on: May 21, 2011, 12:40:25 AM »

Again, you are mischaracterizing the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity does not include the idea that there is a unity of gods, because we believe in only one God (From the Creed: "I believe in one God"). The doctrine of the Trinity does not include the idea that God could be divided into parts because we profess that the members of the Trinity are "one in essence and undivided" (from the Divine Liturgy).


"..the members of the Trinity..."  - your words.
What is your point? Perhaps I should have been more careful and said the Persons of the Trinity. But either way, what is your point? what is more, you haven't really addressed the substance of my posts.


We are talking about how to describe God.  Jesus said God is one.  The churches says God is a trinity.  Is the concept of God expressed by Jesus the same as the Christian concept of God?
Yes or no?

The Church says God is One. The Tri-Unity of God is a complementary doctrine to the Oneness of God, not a competitive one.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #103 on: May 21, 2011, 12:40:25 AM »

So, from your perspective, it is impossible for God to simultaneously and eternally exist as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit while still being One God?

Here is how I would characterize the situation.  Lets say you are my neighbor.  And you meet me in front of our house's and you call me Leisa.  Then, the next time we meet is at a halloween party and I'm dressed as Lady Godiva.  And another time you meet me at my work where I am dressed in a nurses uniform and you call me nurse.
Ok.  Are there three Leisa's?  Or is there one Leisa in three different situations?

BTW, how do you account for all three hypostases being present simultaneously at Jesus' Baptism and His Transfiguration?

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #104 on: May 21, 2011, 04:19:07 AM »

So, from your perspective, it is impossible for God to simultaneously and eternally exist as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit while still being One God?

Here is how I would characterize the situation.  Lets say you are my neighbor.  And you meet me in front of our house's and you call me Leisa.  Then, the next time we meet is at a halloween party and I'm dressed as Lady Godiva.  And another time you meet me at my work where I am dressed in a nurses uniform and you call me nurse.
Ok.  Are there three Leisa's?  Or is there one Leisa in three different situations?

So Leisa, did you pray to Lady Godiva and send the Holy Nurse to your disciples?  Did your Lady Godiva costume call you "my beloved daughter" and the Holy Nurse descend upon you in the form of a stethoscope?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 04:20:15 AM by minasoliman »
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Offline Aindriú

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #105 on: May 21, 2011, 08:00:39 AM »
While your points are true and somewhat humorous, I was trying to make the point that 3 persons make a single god.

That's a sort of weird phrasing of it. What do you mean by "make"?

Don't read into it too much.

But to ease your mind, make as in "composed of, or within", not create. Though, that didn't stop the "size comparison" on who's a analogy was better, anyways.

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Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #106 on: May 22, 2011, 11:09:47 AM »

BTW, how do you account for all three hypostases being present simultaneously at Jesus' Baptism and His Transfiguration?

I would ask you, where do you get this information that "all three hypostases being present simultaneously at Jesus' Baptism"?
(Lets stick to the baptism for now).

Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #107 on: May 22, 2011, 11:17:40 AM »

Who did Jesus pray to?

The Holy Spirit descended on Jesus at his Baptism and the Father speaks expressing His son. Was this confusion?

I understand you reject one of the Gospels to support your theory. Perhaps also because John has this:
John 14
Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God: believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house there are many mansions. If not, I would have told you: because I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I shall go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself: that where I am, you also may be. 4 And whither I go you know: and the way you know. 5 Thomas said to him: Lord, we know not whither you go. And how can we know the way? 6 Jesus said to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me. 7 If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him. And you have seen him. 8 Philip said to him: Lord, show us the Father; and it is enough for us. 9 Jesus said to him: Have I been so long a time with you and have you not known me? Philip, he that sees me sees the Father also. How do you say: Show us the Father? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abides in me, he does the works. 11 Believe you not that I am in the Father and the Father in me? 12 Otherwise believe for the very works' sake. Amen, amen, I say to you, he that believes in me, the works that I do, he also shall do: and greater than these shall he do. 13 Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you shall ask me anything in my name, that I will do.

If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever: 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, nor knows him. But you shall know him; because he shall abide with you and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while and the world sees me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live. 20 In that day you shall know that I am in my Father: and you in me, and I in you. 21 He that has my commandments and keeps them; he it is that loves me. And he that loves me shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas says to him, not the Iscariot: Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world? 23 Jesus answered and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word. And my Father will love him and we will come to him and will make our abode with him. 24 He that loves me not keeps not my words. And the word which you have heard is not mine; but the Father's who sent me. 25 These things have I spoken to you, abiding with you. 26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.


Your first question was asked by me earlier in this thread. 
Regarding your second question, perhaps you can tell me what happens at Jesus's baptism regarding the Holy Spirit and the Father.
Lets just start with that.

Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #108 on: May 22, 2011, 11:23:38 AM »
Let's say there is one tree. The tree has the branches (with the leaves etc.), the trunk and roots, and the life. Yet how many trees do we have? One. Yet the leaves are not the trunk, and neither are they the same thing as the life of the tree.

Granted this is an oversimplification and does have many holes, but it does show an example of three being one, while each being distinct. In the same way, you have a spirit, soul and body. Your spirit is not your soul, your soul isn't your body, but you are one Leisa, not three. Again this is an analogy and does not perfectly capture the trinity in any way.

The analogy of a person with a brain and a chest and arms is similar and I would ask you why would the brain pray to the hand?
If indeed we are talking about one person, or one tree, or one God, then why would God pray to God?  Or why would a leaf have a separate being or existence from the bark?  It doesn't, the tree is one, the tree is not a trinity or a multiplicity of "persons".  Neither is a man with a brain, spirit and body a trinity? It is one man.  And insofar as it is one man, a man does not pray to his own intellect, nor does a man pray to his own spirit or his own body.  That would be idolatry and nonsense.
So then you tell me why Jesus who is one God, prays to himself?

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #109 on: May 22, 2011, 11:51:06 AM »
Regarding your second question, perhaps you can tell me what happens at Jesus's baptism regarding the Holy Spirit and the Father.
Lets just start with that.

Mark 1
Quote
9 And it came to pass, in those days, Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And forthwith coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens open and the Spirit as a dove descending and remaining on him. 11 And there came a voice from heaven: You are my beloved Son; in you I am well pleased.

Luke 3
Quote
21 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also being baptized and praying, heaven was opened. 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape, as a dove, upon him. And a voice came from heaven: You are my beloved Son. In you I am well pleased.

Matthew 3
Quote
13 Then comes Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. 14 But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by you, and you come to me? 15 And Jesus answering, said to him: Allow it to be so now. For so it becomes us to fulfil all justice. Then he allowed him. 16 And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. 17 And behold a voice from heaven saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

John 1
Quote
29 The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him; and he says: Behold the Lamb of God. Behold him who takes away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said: After me there comes a man, who is preferred before me: because he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he may be made manifest in Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John gave testimony, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven; and he remained upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me: He upon whom you shall see the Spirit descending and remaining upon him, he it is that baptizes with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw: and I gave testimony that this is the Son of God.


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Offline Wyatt

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #110 on: May 22, 2011, 11:57:22 AM »

BTW, how do you account for all three hypostases being present simultaneously at Jesus' Baptism and His Transfiguration?

I would ask you, where do you get this information that "all three hypostases being present simultaneously at Jesus' Baptism"?
(Lets stick to the baptism for now).
Scripture makes a distinction between Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father at Jesus' baptism. If sabellianism was true there would be no reason to make this distinction.

Offline Father Peter

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #111 on: May 22, 2011, 12:29:37 PM »
Leisa, you mistake, is to say that God is a person. In the sense you mean it, God is not a person, God is the divine nature. This divine nature is three persons. When we pray to God, we mean that we are most usually praying to God the Father. When we say that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are equally and consubstanially God, we do not mean that they are the same person who we call 'God', but that they are the same unity of nature and are equally Divine and of the same substance.

When God the Word addresses God the Father it is because they are not the same Divine Person, even though they share and are the same Divine Substance. They are both God, but are different Divine Persons.

Your analogy of a person with a brain, a chest and an arm is not at all applicable to the case of the Trinity. The brain is only a part of human nature, the chest is only a part of human nature, the arm is only a part of human nature. Therefore the brain, chest and arm relate as incomplete parts and aspects of human nature, more than that the brain is not a human person, the chest is not a human person and the arm is not a human.

In the case of the Holy Trinity, the Father is entirely and completely Divine and is not a part of the Divine nature. The Word is entirely and completely Divine and is not a part of the Divine nature. The Holy Spirit is entirely and completely Divine and is not a part of the Divine nature. These are three Divine persons who are entirely and completely the same Divine nature, but who have a relation of persons among themselves.

They are not parts, or aspects, they are persons occupying (to put it very loosely and simply) the same natural space.

Your analogy is not the same. You refer to non personal parts of human nature that do not occupy the same natural space, since the brain is a different part of humanity to the chest and to the arm, and none of them are persons.

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Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #112 on: May 22, 2011, 01:10:09 PM »
Azurestone, I meant, in your own words.  Can you tell me what happened?  What is your understanding of what happened at Jesus's baptism?

Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #113 on: May 22, 2011, 01:12:21 PM »

Scripture makes a distinction between Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father at Jesus' baptism. If sabellianism was true there would be no reason to make this distinction.

Scripture?  What does scripture say?  That is what I am asking you guys.  What does scripture say about what happened at Jesus's baptism.  And please don't just quote from all four gospels. Read it and tell me, what is it saying?

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #114 on: May 22, 2011, 01:16:57 PM »
Azurestone, I meant, in your own words.  Can you tell me what happened?  What is your understanding of what happened at Jesus's baptism?

Are you playing, now? It's two sentences.

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Offline Wyatt

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #115 on: May 22, 2011, 01:33:20 PM »

Scripture makes a distinction between Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father at Jesus' baptism. If sabellianism was true there would be no reason to make this distinction.

Scripture?  What does scripture say?  That is what I am asking you guys.  What does scripture say about what happened at Jesus's baptism.  And please don't just quote from all four gospels. Read it and tell me, what is it saying?
The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus like a dove and God the Father said "this is my beloved Son, of whom I am well pleased." We see the Three hypostases of the Holy Trinity present at this moment in Jesus' life.

Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #116 on: May 22, 2011, 01:34:14 PM »
Leisa, you mistake, is to say that God is a person. In the sense you mean it, God is not a person, God is the divine nature. This divine nature is three persons. When we pray to God, we mean that we are most usually praying to God the Father. When we say that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are equally and consubstanially God, we do not mean that they are the same person who we call 'God', but that they are the same unity of nature and are equally Divine and of the same substance.

When God the Word addresses God the Father it is because they are not the same Divine Person, even though they share and are the same Divine Substance. They are both God, but are different Divine Persons.

Your analogy of a person with a brain, a chest and an arm is not at all applicable to the case of the Trinity. The brain is only a part of human nature, the chest is only a part of human nature, the arm is only a part of human nature. Therefore the brain, chest and arm relate as incomplete parts and aspects of human nature, more than that the brain is not a human person, the chest is not a human person and the arm is not a human.

In the case of the Holy Trinity, the Father is entirely and completely Divine and is not a part of the Divine nature. The Word is entirely and completely Divine and is not a part of the Divine nature. The Holy Spirit is entirely and completely Divine and is not a part of the Divine nature. These are three Divine persons who are entirely and completely the same Divine nature, but who have a relation of persons among themselves.

They are not parts, or aspects, they are persons occupying (to put it very loosely and simply) the same natural space.

Your analogy is not the same. You refer to non personal parts of human nature that do not occupy the same natural space, since the brain is a different part of humanity to the chest and to the arm, and none of them are persons.

Father Peter

The question still remains, why does one divine person (Jesus) pray to another divine person (the Father)?  Especially given that you said they are all 'completely the same Divine nature"?

Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #117 on: May 22, 2011, 01:37:10 PM »
The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus like a dove and God the Father said "this is my beloved Son, of whom I am well pleased." We see the Three hypostases of the Holy Trinity present at this moment in Jesus' life.

Thank you for answering the question.  Now I can respond to it.  Who saw the dove descend and who heard the voice?

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #118 on: May 22, 2011, 01:43:00 PM »
The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus like a dove and God the Father said "this is my beloved Son, of whom I am well pleased." We see the Three hypostases of the Holy Trinity present at this moment in Jesus' life.

Thank you for answering the question.  Now I can respond to it.  Who saw the dove descend and who heard the voice?
St. John the Baptist, Jesus, and anyone else who was present that John was baptizing that day. Then the Gospel writers recorded it.

Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #119 on: May 22, 2011, 01:50:28 PM »

St. John the Baptist, Jesus, and anyone else who was present that John was baptizing that day. Then the Gospel writers recorded it.

Everyone else?  Are you sure about that? What in the gospels would indicate to you that this was witnessed by the crowds?

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #120 on: May 22, 2011, 01:52:39 PM »

St. John the Baptist, Jesus, and anyone else who was present that John was baptizing that day. Then the Gospel writers recorded it.

Everyone else?  Are you sure about that? What in the gospels would indicate to you that this was witnessed by the crowds?
I didn't say everyone else, I said "anyone else" who may have been present that day, and it isn't recorded in the Gospel to my knowledge. That was my speculation. Since St. John the Baptist is a prophet and had followers and often baptized multitudes of people I don't think my speculation was all that far fetched.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 01:52:54 PM by Wyatt »

Offline Father Peter

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #121 on: May 22, 2011, 01:53:37 PM »
Why should one divine person not address another divine person?
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

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Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #122 on: May 22, 2011, 02:03:37 PM »

I didn't say everyone else, I said "anyone else" who may have been present that day, and it isn't recorded in the Gospel to my knowledge. That was my speculation. Since St. John the Baptist is a prophet and had followers and often baptized multitudes of people I don't think my speculation was all that far fetched.

Ok, then lets look at what the four gospels say.  Mark says "he saw" meaning John saw.  Matthew says "he saw".  Luke does not say who witnessed this, and John says "I saw". ("I" being John).

So we have three gospels claiming that John saw this.  The fourth doesn't comment.

Now, do you still say that the crowds or others present experienced this?


Offline Wyatt

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #123 on: May 22, 2011, 02:17:11 PM »

I didn't say everyone else, I said "anyone else" who may have been present that day, and it isn't recorded in the Gospel to my knowledge. That was my speculation. Since St. John the Baptist is a prophet and had followers and often baptized multitudes of people I don't think my speculation was all that far fetched.

Ok, then lets look at what the four gospels say.  Mark says "he saw" meaning John saw.  Matthew says "he saw".  Luke does not say who witnessed this, and John says "I saw". ("I" being John).

So we have three gospels claiming that John saw this.  The fourth doesn't comment.

Now, do you still say that the crowds or others present experienced this?
What does any of this have to do with why you embrace the sabellian heresy?

Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #124 on: May 22, 2011, 02:38:05 PM »

What does any of this have to do with why you embrace the sabellian heresy?

You said: "Scripture makes a distinction between Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father at Jesus' baptism."

 

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #125 on: May 22, 2011, 02:52:25 PM »

What does any of this have to do with why you embrace the sabellian heresy?

You said: "Scripture makes a distinction between Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father at Jesus' baptism."

You've yet to say how it's relevant. Three of the gospels say John (the Baptist, Prophet, and Forerunner) was the one who directly observed Jesus' divinity. He also proclaims split acknowledgement by the heavenly hypostases. In what way does John remaining the focus of the story strengthen modalism?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 02:53:32 PM by Azurestone »

I'm going to need this.

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #126 on: May 22, 2011, 02:54:59 PM »

Thank you for answering the question.  Now I can respond to it.  Who saw the dove descend and who heard the voice?

You are committing the fallacy of RED HERRING.  ;)

Your question who witnessed this incident will not change the fact that the Evangelists recorded that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were simultaneously present during this event. The Gospel accounts suffice to debunk your allegation that these three are the distinct manifestations of the same person.

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #127 on: May 22, 2011, 02:59:41 PM »

You said: "Scripture makes a distinction between Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father at Jesus' baptism."


This is actually a STRAW-MAN. The poster did not exactly make this statement.
Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem

Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #128 on: May 22, 2011, 03:18:46 PM »
Why should one divine person not address another divine person?

Because there is only one God.





  

 


Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #129 on: May 22, 2011, 03:24:45 PM »


You've yet to say how it's relevant. Three of the gospels say John (the Baptist, Prophet, and Forerunner) was the one who directly observed Jesus' divinity. He also proclaims split acknowledgement by the heavenly hypostases. In what way does John remaining the focus of the story strengthen modalism?

You didn't answer my question - was this event experienced by anyone other than John?

Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #130 on: May 22, 2011, 03:29:39 PM »

Thank you for answering the question.  Now I can respond to it.  Who saw the dove descend and who heard the voice?

You are committing the fallacy of RED HERRING.  ;)

Your question who witnessed this incident will not change the fact that the Evangelists recorded that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were simultaneously present during this event. The Gospel accounts suffice to debunk your allegation that these three are the distinct manifestations of the same person.



sigh.  I am trying to discuss what happened at Jesus's baptism.  And I can't read it for you.
If you want to read it and discuss it I would be more than happy to discuss it with you.

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #131 on: May 22, 2011, 03:32:32 PM »
You've yet to say how it's relevant. Three of the gospels say John (the Baptist, Prophet, and Forerunner) was the one who directly observed Jesus' divinity. He also proclaims split acknowledgement by the heavenly hypostases. In what way does John remaining the focus of the story strengthen modalism?

You didn't answer my question - was this event experienced by anyone other than John?

And you're avoiding ours. What does it matter?

It appears you hold your position you are comfortable with by rejecting parts of the Bible. First, the 20-30 year difference between Mark and John being written down is good enough to throw out the book of John. Now your saying that John the Baptist was a Prophet enough to know God and point people to Him, but he is not holy enough to be trusted in all divine revelation, especially when it conflicts with your current logic.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 03:33:38 PM by Azurestone »

I'm going to need this.

Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #132 on: May 22, 2011, 03:33:19 PM »

St. John the Baptist, Jesus, and anyone else who was present that John was baptizing that day. Then the Gospel writers recorded it.

If I misquoted Wyatt it was by accident.  I have no desire to misrepresent him.
He asked me what the baptism had to do with my Sabellianism, and I said the only reason I was talking about the baptism was because someone raised it as a proof against Sabellianism.
And I am happy to discuss Jesus's baptism.  I don't think it is a proof against Sabellianism.

Offline Leisa

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #133 on: May 22, 2011, 03:37:08 PM »
You've yet to say how it's relevant. Three of the gospels say John (the Baptist, Prophet, and Forerunner) was the one who directly observed Jesus' divinity. He also proclaims split acknowledgement by the heavenly hypostases. In what way does John remaining the focus of the story strengthen modalism?

You didn't answer my question - was this event experienced by anyone other than John?

And you're avoiding ours. What does it matter?

It appears you hold your position you are comfortable with by rejecting parts of the Bible. First, the 20-30 year difference between Mark and John being written down is good enough to throw out the book of John. Now your saying that John the Baptist was a Prophet enough to know God and point people to Him, but he is not holy enough to be trusted in all divine revelation, especially when it conflicts with your current logic.

No, I am not avoiding your questions.
I asked about who witnessed these events at Jesus's baptism.  Someone said several people and I said it was only John.
Why is that relevant is because it is an entirely different thing if something is objectively witnessed as a real event by multiple people, or if it is one person's personal revelation or experience.

We are not talking about something that happened in a real sense, like the other miracles Jesus performed.  We are talking about something that John experienced alone.  John, who was the prophet who foretold of Jesus.

So you have to put it into the category of personal revelation.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Sabellianism
« Reply #134 on: May 22, 2011, 03:47:03 PM »
Why should one divine person not address another divine person?

Because there is only one God.
No one is saying there isn't.