Topic: what type of Church is this?

[Tikhon.of.Colorado]

what type of Church is depicted in this video?  I only ask because, although havin iconography and statuary of a traditional Christian Church, there is painted a large man in black with a beard......and he's rather too "in the center".  I would think Christ should be there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMGEgF5uYcw&feature=related

[stashko]

I think thats a Marronite Catholic Church ....And there favorite saint Maroun......Hope i got his name right...

[mike]

St. Maron is an Orthodox Saint too. There is a Church dedicated to him in Moscow.

I think stashko is right and this is a Maronite (a branch of Eastern Catholicism) Church.

[akimori makoto]

St. Maron is an Orthodox Saint too. There is a Church dedicated to him in Moscow.

I think stashko is right and this is a Maronite (a branch of Eastern Catholicism) Church.

I'm not sure the Maronites even know who they are sometimes, as hinted at by the confused architecture/statuary/iconography in this temple.

[Alveus Lacuna]

I'm not sure the Maronites even know who they are sometimes, as hinted at by the confused architecture/statuary/iconography in this temple.

I agree. What I've seen from this community in terms of liturgy and devotion seems very unintentional, chaotic and confused.

[stashko]

Are you Sure Mihajilo...

I allways thought there Saint Maroun ,was against Eastern Orthodoxy, and found fault and fought against us..Plus  i never heard that he was one of our saints till you mentioned it here  .......

[Alveus Lacuna]

St. Maron is an Orthodox Saint too. There is a Church dedicated to him in Moscow.

When is he celebrated in the Russian calendar?

[deusveritasest]

there is painted a large man in black with a beard......and he's rather too "in the center".

I also find the prominence of the image of John Maroun a little disturbing.

[Shlomlokh]

St. Maron is an Orthodox Saint too. There is a Church dedicated to him in Moscow.

When is he celebrated in the Russian calendar?

I remember hearing him commemorated this year in February (14th I think? which would make it the 27 O.S.). I had worshiped with the local Maronite community for over a year before I found Orthodoxy. Wonderful people. They have been undergoing a lot of trials through the centuries struggling to find/maintain a liturgical identity. :/

In Christ,
Andrew

[Shlomlokh]

there is painted a large man in black with a beard......and he's rather too "in the center".

I also find the prominence of the image of John Maroun a little disturbing.

I must admit, I'm not too familiar with him other than the fact that the Maronites recognize him as a saint. He would randomly come up from time to time in homilies at my former church (Maronite), but no one ever went into great detail about him with me. I never thought to look into him. I vaguely remember that he filled in a vacancy for the Antiochian Patriarchate, but I think there was controversy around that. What can you tell us?

In Christ,
Andrew

[deusveritasest]

there is painted a large man in black with a beard......and he's rather too "in the center".

I also find the prominence of the image of John Maroun a little disturbing.

I must admit, I'm not too familiar with him other than the fact that the Maronites recognize him as a saint. He would randomly come up from time to time in homilies at my former church (Maronite), but no one ever went into great detail about him with me. I never thought to look into him. I vaguely remember that he filled in a vacancy for the Antiochian Patriarchate, but I think there was controversy around that. What can you tell us?

In Christ,
Andrew

I don't know much about him. My comment was simply disturbance of such a lower figure being the primary image in the Church (I probably would have said the same thing about most anyone other than Christ or His mother).

[Shlomlokh]

there is painted a large man in black with a beard......and he's rather too "in the center".

I also find the prominence of the image of John Maroun a little disturbing.

I must admit, I'm not too familiar with him other than the fact that the Maronites recognize him as a saint. He would randomly come up from time to time in homilies at my former church (Maronite), but no one ever went into great detail about him with me. I never thought to look into him. I vaguely remember that he filled in a vacancy for the Antiochian Patriarchate, but I think there was controversy around that. What can you tell us?

In Christ,
Andrew

I don't know much about him. My comment was simply disturbance of such a lower figure being the primary image in the Church (I probably would have said the same thing about most anyone other than Christ or His mother).

Oh. I agree. It seems to be a reoccurring theme in some Maronite churches I have seen.

In Christ,
Andrew

[Cognomen]

What I've seen from this community in terms of liturgy and devotion seems very unintentional, chaotic and confused.

I've noticed this too. Add jurisdictional matters to the list as well.

[Peter J]

There's a Maronite Church within driving distance of where I live. I've only been there a handful of times. But anyhow I recall, the first time I was there, being fascinated by the design and setup of the Church. I didn't think of it as confused or chaotic, but I can see how it might be described that way.

there is painted a large man in black with a beard......and he's rather too "in the center".  I would think Christ should be there.

I agree, that's strange. The Maronite church I've been to (or any other church I can recall) didn't have anything like that.

[Alpo]

St. Maron is an Orthodox Saint too. There is a Church dedicated to him in Moscow.

I think stashko is right and this is a Maronite (a branch of Eastern Catholicism) Church.

I'm not sure the Maronites even know who they are sometimes, as hinted at by the confused architecture/statuary/iconography in this temple.

The glory of Latinizations and Byzantizations. Maronites doesn't have an Orthodox counterpart and they've been in communion with pre-Vatican II Rome for so long they might have forgotten their own tradition due to Rome's past antagonistic stance to the Christian East.

[mike]

Shlomlokh, you are right.

http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=100524

[deusveritasest]

Maronites doesn't have an Orthodox counterpart

Weren't they originally part of the Church of Antioch?

[stashko]

Didn't Rome's ,Franciscans or Jesuits burn all their Ancient writings and litugical books out of existence ,so now there cobbeling things togeather, latin and eastern and the results are this.........

St. Maron is an Orthodox Saint too. There is a Church dedicated to him in Moscow.

I think stashko is right and this is a Maronite (a branch of Eastern Catholicism) Church.

I'm not sure the Maronites even know who they are sometimes, as hinted at by the confused architecture/statuary/iconography in this temple.

The glory of Latinizations and Byzantizations. Maronites doesn't have an Orthodox counterpart and they've been in communion with pre-Vatican II Rome for so long they might have forgotten their own tradition due to Rome's past antagonistic stance to the Christian East.

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

Didn't Rome's ,Franciscans or Jesuits burn all their Ancient writings and litugical books out of existence ,so now there cobbeling things togeather, latin and eastern and the results are this.........

St. Maron is an Orthodox Saint too. There is a Church dedicated to him in Moscow.

I think stashko is right and this is a Maronite (a branch of Eastern Catholicism) Church.

I'm not sure the Maronites even know who they are sometimes, as hinted at by the confused architecture/statuary/iconography in this temple.

The glory of Latinizations and Byzantizations. Maronites doesn't have an Orthodox counterpart and they've been in communion with pre-Vatican II Rome for so long they might have forgotten their own tradition due to Rome's past antagonistic stance to the Christian East.

Are you making a joke or are you asking? Anyway, please tell us how you came to this (latest) accusation against the Roman catholic Church? Thanking you in advance, SC

[stashko]

Because it was Mentioned on this forum somewhere and some other places the crusaders played a big part in as well.....

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

Because it was Mentioned on this forum somewhere and some other places the crusaders played a big part in as well.....

However, it appears that the crusaders were not entirely successful as all of the eastern Patriarchates (Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria) have survived their depredations. Some historians speculate that the Turks actually helped the Orthodox Churches against the depredations and influences of the Roman Catholic Church. 

[Deacon Lance]

The Syro-Malabars had their books burnt by the Portuguese.  The Maronites have their ancient manuscripts.  The Crusaders played no part in Latinizing the Maronites, that did not occur until the 1700s.  St Maron and St John Maron are seperate individuals.  St. John maron was the first Maronite Patriarch and under him Maronite warrriors routed the Byzantine army sent to attack them by Justinian II.

[stashko]

 Humm How could I of confused the two groups ,Syro-Malabars and the Maronites ,,Where are the Syro-Malabars located at in this present time...

[Deacon Lance]

The Kerala region of India and elsewhere,

[stashko]

The Kerala region of India and elsewhere,

Thank You!

 Hristos Voskrese!

[mike]

St Maron and St John Maron are seperate individuals.  St. John maron was the first Maronite Patriarch and under him Maronite warrriors routed the Byzantine army sent to attack them by Justinian II.

So who are they named after?

[Deacon Lance]

They consider St Maron the father of their tradition even though they did not have their own patriarch until St. John Maron.  It must be remembered that they are Syrian Christians who upheld Chalcedon so were persecuted by the Syrian Orthodox but were also too independent (and not Greek) for the Greek Orthodox so they persecuted them as well.

[deusveritasest]

They consider St Maron the father of their tradition even though they did not have their own patriarch until St. John Maron.  It must be remembered that they are Syrian Christians who upheld Chalcedon so were persecuted by the Syrian Orthodox but were also too independent (and not Greek) for the Greek Orthodox so they persecuted them as well.

So what jurisdiction were they part of before John Maron?

[akimori makoto]

I also seem to remember something about their theology tending towards monothelitism. Am I confused?

[deusveritasest]

I also seem to remember something about their theology tending towards monothelitism. Am I confused?

There are claims to the effect that they were once monothelites.

I don't really know anything beyond that, so I can't answer your question completely.

[Deacon Lance]

I also seem to remember something about their theology tending towards monothelitism. Am I confused?

St. John Maron wrote against monothelitism.  It seems a few of their writings after him were miathelite, so the Melkites and Antiochians alike love to throw the accusation of monothelitism.

[Deacon Lance]

They consider St Maron the father of their tradition even though they did not have their own patriarch until St. John Maron.  It must be remembered that they are Syrian Christians who upheld Chalcedon so were persecuted by the Syrian Orthodox but were also too independent (and not Greek) for the Greek Orthodox so they persecuted them as well.

So what jurisdiction were they part of before John Maron?

It would seem before St. John Maron they held allegiance to Chalcedonian Patriarch of Antioch but were quite isolated from him which is why they ended up electing their own.

[ialmisry]

I also seem to remember something about their theology tending towards monothelitism. Am I confused?

No, but they are. They deny their past, but their liturgical books, manuscripts etc. tell a different tale.  A Maronite life of St. Maximus starts "the life of the blaspheming Maximus who had his impious tongue cut out and his heretical hand cut off" or something along those lines.

[ignatius]

I also seem to remember something about their theology tending towards monothelitism. Am I confused?

No, but they are. They deny their past, but their liturgical books, manuscripts etc. tell a different tale.  A Maronite life of St. Maximus starts "the life of the blaspheming Maximus who had his impious tongue cut out and his heretical hand cut off" or something along those lines.

Grace and Peace,

Could you give me a link to this book? I noticed a lot of Orthodox/Eastern bias in the beginning of this thread which appears to be completely off base. Are you actually quoting the title of the book or are you paraphrasing?

[deusveritasest]

They consider St Maron the father of their tradition even though they did not have their own patriarch until St. John Maron.  It must be remembered that they are Syrian Christians who upheld Chalcedon so were persecuted by the Syrian Orthodox but were also too independent (and not Greek) for the Greek Orthodox so they persecuted them as well.

So what jurisdiction were they part of before John Maron?

It would seem before St. John Maron they held allegiance to Chalcedonian Patriarch of Antioch but were quite isolated from him which is why they ended up electing their own.

So how did they receive Sacraments before? Were they actually connected enough to receive Bishops or Priests?

[akimori makoto]

Grace and Peace,

Could you give me a link to this book? I noticed a lot of Orthodox/Eastern bias in the beginning of this thread which appears to be completely off base. [...]

I hope I've offset the negativity of my impressions with my openness to being corrected or better informed. Nevertheless, those have been my impressions to date.

I also seem to remember something about their theology tending towards monothelitism. Am I confused?

No, but they are. They deny their past, but their liturgical books, manuscripts etc. tell a different tale.  A Maronite life of St. Maximus starts "the life of the blaspheming Maximus who had his impious tongue cut out and his heretical hand cut off" or something along those lines.

Thank you, Ialmisry. I would love to hear more about whether the theology of the Maronites is truly monothelite.

[deusveritasest]

Thank you, Ialmisry. I would love to hear more about whether the theology of the Maronites is truly monothelite.

Well, there are actually two issues to consider: 1. whether they are now Monothelite and 2. whether they were once Monothelite.

[Deacon Lance]

I would love to hear more about whether the theology of the Maronites is truly monothelite.

If the Maronites are Monothelite then the Oriental Orthodox are Monophysite.  (They aren't and neither are the Maronites Monothelites)

http://www.maronitehistory.org/Monothelitism

[WetCatechumen]

One of my closest friends is Maronite, and I serve in Holy Qurbana once a month (we don't have a permanent parish, just a visiting priest).

So please, those of you making the comments about how Maronites don't have their own tradition or are chaotic, or whatever, please just restrain yourselves and realize that you're talking about real Christians who have a very deep and rich history and a beautiful liturgy.

But please, go ahead, make as many comments about the modern Roman liturgy as you like. I promise I am way more annoyed about its current dismal state than you.

[stashko]

The Ewtn Mass/Liturgy doesn't seem bad ....I agee with the Poster Rob that it's better the  all latin one....

[dzheremi]

I don't understand your stance, WetCatechumen. Since you have a friend there and serve at the Qurbana, others can't comment? Um...no. That's not how things work.

I have friends who are Maronites, too. I love them. It doesn't mean that their church isn't a mess. More importantly, they're the ones who've told me that their church is a mess. And they know their church better than outsiders do.

To say that their traditional spirituality and praxis has been lost is a bit of an understatement; they've lost the means by which they could even go about recovering it. The Maronite Church is a real tragedy.

[Wyatt]

The Ewtn Mass/Liturgy doesn't seem bad ....I agee with the Poster Rob that it's better the  all latin one....

I pray we see a day when all Masses will be as reverent as the ones on EWTN. I am fortunate enough to belong to a parish that is pretty darn close.

[ialmisry]

Christ is risen!

Grace and Peace,

Could you give me a link to this book? I noticed a lot of Orthodox/Eastern bias in the beginning of this thread which appears to be completely off base. [...]

I hope I've offset the negativity of my impressions with my openness to being corrected or better informed. Nevertheless, those have been my impressions to date.

I also seem to remember something about their theology tending towards monothelitism. Am I confused?

No, but they are. They deny their past, but their liturgical books, manuscripts etc. tell a different tale.  A Maronite life of St. Maximus starts "the life of the blaspheming Maximus who had his impious tongue cut out and his heretical hand cut off" or something along those lines.

Thank you, Ialmisry. I would love to hear more about whether the theology of the Maronites is truly monothelite.

Not now it isn't, nor has it been since Florence, when the Maronites began to swallow anything the Vatican dishes out.  The manuscripts tell a different tale which wasn't passed on into print.
The Maronites in History By Matti Moosa
http://books.google.com/books?id=8Ogp94y8CJgC&pg=PA113&dq=maronites+in+history+one+will&cd=1#v=snippet&q=%22one%20will%22&f=false

the Muslim polemics treat the Marnonites as seperate from both the EO (which they include Rome, which was Orthodox at the time) and the OO, and the Nestorians.

[ialmisry]

I also seem to remember something about their theology tending towards monothelitism. Am I confused?

No, but they are. They deny their past, but their liturgical books, manuscripts etc. tell a different tale.  A Maronite life of St. Maximus starts "the life of the blaspheming Maximus who had his impious tongue cut out and his heretical hand cut off" or something along those lines.

Grace and Peace,

Could you give me a link to this book? I noticed a lot of Orthodox/Eastern bias in the beginning of this thread which appears to be completely off base. Are you actually quoting the title of the book or are you paraphrasing?

No bias. Just the facts (on the thread, not the blasphemous track against St.Maximus the Confessor).  The English translation is "S. Brock, 'An Early Syriac Life of Maximus the Confessor', Analecta Bollandiana, 91 (1973), pp. 299-346

For related facts:
Syrian Christians under Islam: the first thousand years By David Richard Thomas
http://books.google.com/books?id=E51_-Js-bZwC&pg=PA48&dq=Life+Maximus+Maronite&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Life%20Maximus%20Maronite&f=false

The exact heading is "The narrative concerning the wicked Maximos of Palestine, who blasphemed against his creator and his tongue was cut out"
Jahrbuch der österreichischen Byzantinistik, Volume 53
http://books.google.com/books?id=NHxoAAAAMAAJ&q=Life+Maximus+Maronite+Brock+tongue&dq=Life+Maximus+Maronite+Brock+tongue&hl=en
Syriac perspectives on late antiquity
http://books.google.com/books?id=cB1jAAAAMAAJ&dq=Life+Maximus+Maronite+Brock+tongue&q=tongue

[WetCatechumen]

I don't understand your stance, WetCatechumen. Since you have a friend there and serve at the Qurbana, others can't comment? Um...no. That's not how things work.

I have friends who are Maronites, too. I love them. It doesn't mean that their church isn't a mess. More importantly, they're the ones who've told me that their church is a mess. And they know their church better than outsiders do.

To say that their traditional spirituality and praxis has been lost is a bit of an understatement; they've lost the means by which they could even go about recovering it. The Maronite Church is a real tragedy.

No, it's the fact that in the first ten or so posts in this thread many of them come across as being rude and dismissive of the Maronites.
The Greek Liturgy is not the zOMG GREATEST LITURGY EVAR!11!!!. Yes, they stayed in communion with us. Yes, we unduly pressured them to Latinize things. No, it has not been good.

But I'm sick of the Greek superiority complex (and it's been inherited by all the Churches which follow the Greek Rite).