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Author Topic: Orthodox Liturgical Abuses?  (Read 4691 times) Average Rating: 0
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Wyatt
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« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2011, 10:37:36 PM »

I've been told that there are Orthodox liturgical abuses that I apparently don't know about. What are they?

Speaking for myself, I have no problems with the OCNICWTV (Orthodox Church Not in Communion With the Vatican) in terms of liturgical abuses.

That's not why I don't convert (reaffiliate).
What is keeping you from converting, then?
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« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2011, 06:01:51 PM »

It is unlikely that most of the Roman Catholics on this board will be in attendance at Orthodox churches, in order to be able to verify what does or doesn't happen.

So, it is hardly possible for them to answer the question as put.

 Roll Eyes

I think you might be surprised.  It's been over ten years since I regularly attended a Catholic parish, and before that I was attending both my own Catholic liturgy on Sunday and the Orthodox liturgy at a local parish.  So we are talking now some 15-17 years here.  And I may not be normative but I am hardly alone in my practice.

Also I've been on Orthodox venues for many years and I listen very carefully to what is said internally so that I can learn.  You won't find clown masses in Orthodoxy.  There's never been any question of that from those who have any knowledge at all about the two confessions but to say that there are no concerns about improper liturgical practice within and between Orthodox jurisdictions is not real at all.

Then Orthodoxy has internal problems unknown to the west in the main. 

So I think that these kinds of discussions are of extremely limited value...not useless entirely...but certainly not places where any kind of triumphalism should rule...lest we miss the plank entirely.
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« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2011, 08:39:55 PM »

Speaking for myself, I have no problems with the OCNICWTV (Orthodox Church Not in Communion With the Vatican) in terms of liturgical abuses.

That's not why I don't convert (reaffiliate).
What is keeping you from converting, then?

Well, I really don't have any intention of breaking communion with Rome. (Even if I did -- not that I would, but just supposing -- I think I would join the PNCC or a Continuing Anglican group rather than the OCNICWTV.)
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« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2011, 11:25:06 AM »

I think you might be surprised.  It's been over ten years since I regularly attended a Catholic parish,
Do you attend an Eastern Orthodox parish?
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« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2011, 11:51:21 AM »

I think you might be surprised.  It's been over ten years since I regularly attended a Catholic parish,
Do you attend an Eastern Orthodox parish?

I have been doing so for many years. 
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« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2011, 12:02:42 PM »

I think you might be surprised.  It's been over ten years since I regularly attended a Catholic parish,
Do you attend an Eastern Orthodox parish?

I have been doing so for many years.

If I may ask, how often do you attend a Catholic parish then?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 12:03:41 PM by Michał » Logged
Wyatt
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« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2011, 12:08:48 PM »

I think you might be surprised.  It's been over ten years since I regularly attended a Catholic parish,
Do you attend an Eastern Orthodox parish?

I have been doing so for many years. 
Any particular reason for attending EO Churches when Catholic Churches are available?
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« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2011, 12:19:33 PM »

I think you might be surprised.  It's been over ten years since I regularly attended a Catholic parish,
Do you attend an Eastern Orthodox parish?

I have been doing so for many years.

If I may ask, how often do you attend a Catholic parish then?

I fail to see how that is relevant to the discussion here.
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« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2011, 12:19:54 PM »

I think you might be surprised.  It's been over ten years since I regularly attended a Catholic parish,
Do you attend an Eastern Orthodox parish?

I have been doing so for many years. 
Why not an Eastern Catholic Church?
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« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2011, 12:20:28 PM »

I think you might be surprised.  It's been over ten years since I regularly attended a Catholic parish,
Do you attend an Eastern Orthodox parish?

I have been doing so for many years. 
Any particular reason for attending EO Churches when Catholic Churches are available?

Yes.
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« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2011, 12:23:08 PM »

I think you might be surprised.  It's been over ten years since I regularly attended a Catholic parish,
Do you attend an Eastern Orthodox parish?

I have been doing so for many years. 
Why not an Eastern Catholic Church?

This is a question which I am not comfortable answering publicly.  Suffice it to say that I do attend eastern and western Catholic liturgies and receive Catholic sacraments sufficiently frequently to satisfy my spiritual father, but the parish that I consider to be my liturgical "home" is an Orthodox parish.
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« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2011, 12:30:33 PM »

I fail to see how that is relevant to the discussion here.

I'm aware that this is off-topic, but I'm simply curious to know why one of the strongest supporters of Catholicism on this board is attending an Orthodox (in your opinion: schismatic and heterodox) parish instead of a Catholic (in your opinion: non-schismatic and orthodox) one. Huh
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 12:36:59 PM by Michał » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2011, 12:36:01 PM »

I think you might be surprised.  It's been over ten years since I regularly attended a Catholic parish,
Do you attend an Eastern Orthodox parish?

I have been doing so for many years. 
Any particular reason for attending EO Churches when Catholic Churches are available?

Yes.

What is your favorite color?
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« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2011, 12:36:57 PM »

I fail to see how that is relevant to the discussion here.

I'm aware that thos is off-topic, but I'm simply curious to know why one of the strongest supporters of Catholicism on this board is attending an Orthodox (in your opinion: schismatic and heterodox) parish instead of a Catholic (in your opinion: non-schismatic and orthodox) one. Huh

You presume entirely too much.  Perhaps if I see signs that you have opened your heart and mind to something other than your own prejudicial conclusions, I will feel more confident and comfortable revealing that part of my private life.
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« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2011, 12:37:33 PM »

I think you might be surprised.  It's been over ten years since I regularly attended a Catholic parish,
Do you attend an Eastern Orthodox parish?

I have been doing so for many years.  
Any particular reason for attending EO Churches when Catholic Churches are available?

Yes.

What is your favorite color?

Yellow and Green and Orange...to be fair to all of them  Smiley
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 12:38:35 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2011, 12:48:09 PM »

Perhaps if I see signs that you have opened your heart and mind to something other than your own prejudicial conclusions, I will feel more confident and comfortable revealing that part of my private life.

Don't be that way. You knew you were dropping a bombshell when you publicly posted that information, and now you're acting surprised when people are confused. Methinks you might be a little attention-seeking.
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« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2011, 12:48:49 PM »

Perhaps if I see signs that you have opened your heart and mind to something other than your own prejudicial conclusions . . .

Whaa?! Huh

Well, I concluded from your activity on this board that in your opinion the Catholic Church is is the one which is orthodox and not in schism, while the Eastern Orthodox Church is heterodox in some respects, and schismatic (or, to use a positive term, in imprefect communion with the bishop of Rome). Where did I err?
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« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2011, 12:54:57 PM »

I think you might be surprised.  It's been over ten years since I regularly attended a Catholic parish,
Do you attend an Eastern Orthodox parish?

I have been doing so for many years. 
Any particular reason for attending EO Churches when Catholic Churches are available?

Yes.
Ok....so you don't want to talk about it. That's cool. I was just curious.
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« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2011, 12:57:21 PM »

Perhaps if I see signs that you have opened your heart and mind to something other than your own prejudicial conclusions . . .

Whaa?! Huh

Well, I concluded from your activity on this board that in your opinion the Catholic Church is is the one which is orthodox and not in schism, while the Eastern Orthodox Church is heterodox in some respects, and schismatic (or, to use a positive term, in imprefect communion with the bishop of Rome). Where did I err?

I do not recognize the schism, as a matter of reality as well as a matter of principle, and I do not think that is too far off from the perspective held by at least one important saint of the Roman rite, St. Therese of Lisieux, and also the current pope who makes a clear distinction between being in formal schism [where one or the other or both are in fact heterodox or heretical], and being out of communion or in material schism.

It is clear to me that east and west are very distinct, but I do not, after all these years find any fundamental or credal differences that are sufficient for either to call the other heterodox, much less heretical.  
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« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2011, 01:02:17 PM »

I do not recognize the schism, as a matter of reality as well as a matter of principle, and I do not think that is too far off from the perspective held by at least one important saint of the Roman rite, St. Therese of Lisieux, and also the current pope who makes a clear distinction between being in formal schism [where one or the other or both are in fact heterodox or heretical], and being out of communion or in material schism.

It is clear to me that east and west are very distinct, but I do not, after all these years find any fundamental or credal differences that are sufficient for either to call the other heterodox, much less heretical.

Thank you for the explanation. I find it, well, interesting.
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« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2011, 01:15:07 PM »

Perhaps if I see signs that you have opened your heart and mind to something other than your own prejudicial conclusions, I will feel more confident and comfortable revealing that part of my private life.

Don't be that way. You knew you were dropping a bombshell when you publicly posted that information, and now you're acting surprised when people are confused. Methinks you might be a little attention-seeking.

You know it is funny, but I've been around so long and told parts of my story here and there so many times that I don't really see it as a bombshell.  So believe me when I say that was not my intent.

But you are right.  I do owe some explanation.

The fact of the matter is that there was a time when I was a regular communicant in a Latin rite parish and my eastern parish and also regularly attended the Orthodox parish that I cannot help but say is my true parish home today.  In 12 years my life changed dramatically.  I became more and more the hermit.  Moved away from a once close proximity to all three parishes.  Became extraordinarily poor...and poorer even still this year.  My house was so cold this year that I have damaged my lungs.  So all pennies went to oil not gasoline...

I can no longer do what I once did for many reasons.  Some of which I cannot tell because they are so hurtful and I am tired of fighting some fights.  Some of the old fights are over and there's no need to say mean things.  I will say that for a while,  I had very little support from my eastern Catholic Church but that is only a part of that story because in other ways and with some of my pastors, I felt perfectly at home.  When Metropolitan Judson was alive there was never a time that I could not pick up the phone and talk to him, as though he were my parish priest.  It was a wonderful time for learning and feeling cared for in truth.  So with all the ups and downs I still remain loyal to my canonical home.

I take care of an aging mother which hampers my mobility...So when I can get out to liturgies, I go to the place where I am most at home, and fed spiritually to suit my own spiritual needs and life.  I follow the Orthodox new calendar which is in strong parallel with my eastern Catholic calendar and have fasted the Orthodox way for a dozen years to the best of my ability.  Even though I cannot commune, I fast the eucharistic fast.  Even when I cannot get out to liturgy, I fast the Eucharistic fast...that sort of thing.  I do receive sacraments often enough though not nearly as often as I would wish.  I keep a daily prayer discipline of the hours.

There is an eastern Catholic priest who has been my spiritual father for nearly 15 years now.  So I am not without guidance.  He oversees my praxis and my internal state as much as is possible.

I'm not sure what else to tell you...You can ask more if you like.  I can tell you that I would never come here and interact as I do if I did not live the life that I have lived.  I love Orthodoxy.  That is a fact.
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« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2011, 02:57:25 PM »

Perhaps if I see signs that you have opened your heart and mind to something other than your own prejudicial conclusions, I will feel more confident and comfortable revealing that part of my private life.

Don't be that way. You knew you were dropping a bombshell when you publicly posted that information, and now you're acting surprised when people are confused. Methinks you might be a little attention-seeking.

You know it is funny, but I've been around so long and told parts of my story here and there so many times that I don't really see it as a bombshell.  So believe me when I say that was not my intent.

But you are right.  I do owe some explanation.

The fact of the matter is that there was a time when I was a regular communicant in a Latin rite parish and my eastern parish and also regularly attended the Orthodox parish that I cannot help but say is my true parish home today.  In 12 years my life changed dramatically.  I became more and more the hermit.  Moved away from a once close proximity to all three parishes.  Became extraordinarily poor...and poorer even still this year.  My house was so cold this year that I have damaged my lungs.  So all pennies went to oil not gasoline...

I can no longer do what I once did for many reasons.  Some of which I cannot tell because they are so hurtful and I am tired of fighting some fights.  Some of the old fights are over and there's no need to say mean things.  I will say that for a while,  I had very little support from my eastern Catholic Church but that is only a part of that story because in other ways and with some of my pastors, I felt perfectly at home.  When Metropolitan Judson was alive there was never a time that I could not pick up the phone and talk to him, as though he were my parish priest.  It was a wonderful time for learning and feeling cared for in truth.  So with all the ups and downs I still remain loyal to my canonical home.

I take care of an aging mother which hampers my mobility...So when I can get out to liturgies, I go to the place where I am most at home, and fed spiritually to suit my own spiritual needs and life.  I follow the Orthodox new calendar which is in strong parallel with my eastern Catholic calendar and have fasted the Orthodox way for a dozen years to the best of my ability.  Even though I cannot commune, I fast the eucharistic fast.  Even when I cannot get out to liturgy, I fast the Eucharistic fast...that sort of thing.  I do receive sacraments often enough though not nearly as often as I would wish.  I keep a daily prayer discipline of the hours.

There is an eastern Catholic priest who has been my spiritual father for nearly 15 years now.  So I am not without guidance.  He oversees my praxis and my internal state as much as is possible.

I'm not sure what else to tell you...You can ask more if you like.  I can tell you that I would never come here and interact as I do if I did not live the life that I have lived.  I love Orthodoxy.  That is a fact.
Interesting. As a Catholic, I am somewhat perplexed as to why you made the decision that you did, but I appreciate the information. To me, since I believe the Pope to be a legitimate bishop as well as supreme pastor of the Universal Church, I'm not sure if I could have a home parish which is part of a communion which does not even recognize the Pope as a valid bishop, let alone his role in the Universal Church. Of course, that's just me. If I were in danger of death and had the permission of an Eastern Orthodox priest or bishop to receive the Eucharist then I probably would since we, as a whole, believe they retain Apostolic Succession and Sacraments. However, apart from such dire circumstances I cannot see myself communing anywhere but within canonical boundaries of the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2011, 03:21:26 PM »

Interesting. As a Catholic, I am somewhat perplexed as to why you made the decision that you did, but I appreciate the information. To me, since I believe the Pope to be a legitimate bishop as well as supreme pastor of the Universal Church, I'm not sure if I could have a home parish which is part of a communion which does not even recognize the Pope as a valid bishop, let alone his role in the Universal Church. Of course, that's just me. If I were in danger of death and had the permission of an Eastern Orthodox priest or bishop to receive the Eucharist then I probably would since we, as a whole, believe they retain Apostolic Succession and Sacraments. However, apart from such dire circumstances I cannot see myself communing anywhere but within canonical boundaries of the Catholic Church.

Don't confuse things for me Wyatt.  I do not commune in Orthodoxy.  The parish is my liturgical and spiritual home and anchor. 

M.
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« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2011, 03:27:26 PM »

Interesting. As a Catholic, I am somewhat perplexed as to why you made the decision that you did, but I appreciate the information. To me, since I believe the Pope to be a legitimate bishop as well as supreme pastor of the Universal Church, I'm not sure if I could have a home parish which is part of a communion which does not even recognize the Pope as a valid bishop, let alone his role in the Universal Church. Of course, that's just me. If I were in danger of death and had the permission of an Eastern Orthodox priest or bishop to receive the Eucharist then I probably would since we, as a whole, believe they retain Apostolic Succession and Sacraments. However, apart from such dire circumstances I cannot see myself communing anywhere but within canonical boundaries of the Catholic Church.

Don't confuse things for me Wyatt.  I do not commune in Orthodoxy.  The parish is my liturgical and spiritual home and anchor. 

M.
Oops...my bad. What I meant to say was that I couldn't see myself even settling into an Eastern Orthodox parish when they deny the Pope. That's denying a major tenet of Catholicism (plus purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, etc.). I would consider visiting an EO parish perhaps, but I would not make it my spiritual home. I'm sure you have your reasons though, and if you don't wish to discuss them then that is fine.
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« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2011, 03:41:51 PM »

Interesting. As a Catholic, I am somewhat perplexed as to why you made the decision that you did, but I appreciate the information. To me, since I believe the Pope to be a legitimate bishop as well as supreme pastor of the Universal Church, I'm not sure if I could have a home parish which is part of a communion which does not even recognize the Pope as a valid bishop, let alone his role in the Universal Church. Of course, that's just me. If I were in danger of death and had the permission of an Eastern Orthodox priest or bishop to receive the Eucharist then I probably would since we, as a whole, believe they retain Apostolic Succession and Sacraments. However, apart from such dire circumstances I cannot see myself communing anywhere but within canonical boundaries of the Catholic Church.

Don't confuse things for me Wyatt.  I do not commune in Orthodoxy.  The parish is my liturgical and spiritual home and anchor. 

M.
Oops...my bad. What I meant to say was that I couldn't see myself even settling into an Eastern Orthodox parish when they deny the Pope. That's denying a major tenet of Catholicism (plus purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, etc.). I would consider visiting an EO parish perhaps, but I would not make it my spiritual home. I'm sure you have your reasons though, and if you don't wish to discuss them then that is fine.

I cannot tell you why.  There is no real rational explanation for that any more than I can explain why I was quite so thunderstruck by the true horror of the schism.  Without being too melodramatic about it, these things remain something of a mystery to me.  But struck I was and in a life-altering manner, and because of that there's no place else that I can go now where I am at peace.  It is exceptionally painful but I accept it as part of a deep desire to see a resumption of communion.  As long as there is schism, I have no place that is whole anymore.  That's just the way it is.  My entire life and vocation are devoted to being and becoming a prayer of union.  I will either live to see a resumption of communion or I will die in some liminal space between confessions.  Either way I am grateful to God for my life.

M.
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« Reply #70 on: April 25, 2011, 03:49:17 PM »

Interesting. As a Catholic, I am somewhat perplexed as to why you made the decision that you did, but I appreciate the information. To me, since I believe the Pope to be a legitimate bishop as well as supreme pastor of the Universal Church, I'm not sure if I could have a home parish which is part of a communion which does not even recognize the Pope as a valid bishop, let alone his role in the Universal Church. Of course, that's just me. If I were in danger of death and had the permission of an Eastern Orthodox priest or bishop to receive the Eucharist then I probably would since we, as a whole, believe they retain Apostolic Succession and Sacraments. However, apart from such dire circumstances I cannot see myself communing anywhere but within canonical boundaries of the Catholic Church.

Don't confuse things for me Wyatt.  I do not commune in Orthodoxy.  The parish is my liturgical and spiritual home and anchor. 

M.
Oops...my bad. What I meant to say was that I couldn't see myself even settling into an Eastern Orthodox parish when they deny the Pope. That's denying a major tenet of Catholicism (plus purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, etc.). I would consider visiting an EO parish perhaps, but I would not make it my spiritual home. I'm sure you have your reasons though, and if you don't wish to discuss them then that is fine.

I cannot tell you why.  There is no real rational explanation for that any more than I can explain why I was quite so thunderstruck by the true horror of the schism.  Without being too melodramatic about it, these things remain something of a mystery to me.  But struck I was and in a life-altering manner, and because of that there's no place else that I can go now where I am at peace.  It is exceptionally painful but I accept it as part of a deep desire to see a resumption of communion.  As long as there is schism, I have no place that is whole anymore.  That's just the way it is.  My entire life and vocation are devoted to being and becoming a prayer of union.  I will either live to see a resumption of communion or I will die in some liminal space between confessions.  Either way I am grateful to God for my life.

M.
I pray that you continue to have peace and that God the Holy Spirit will continue to reveal His truth to you in accordance with His will. I also pray that we see a day when Christendom will be fully restored and reunited and we will, as one voice, profess the One True Holy Faith as given to the Apostles by Christ and fully initiated by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
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« Reply #71 on: April 25, 2011, 03:55:00 PM »


I pray that you continue to have peace and that God the Holy Spirit will continue to reveal His truth to you in accordance with His will. I also pray that we see a day when Christendom will be fully restored and reunited and we will, as one voice, profess the One True Holy Faith as given to the Apostles by Christ and fully initiated by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Amen

Christ is Risen!!
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« Reply #72 on: April 25, 2011, 03:57:05 PM »


I pray that you continue to have peace and that God the Holy Spirit will continue to reveal His truth to you in accordance with His will. I also pray that we see a day when Christendom will be fully restored and reunited and we will, as one voice, profess the One True Holy Faith as given to the Apostles by Christ and fully initiated by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Amen

Christ is Risen!!
Thank you for sharing your story. Smiley
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« Reply #73 on: April 25, 2011, 03:59:08 PM »


I pray that you continue to have peace and that God the Holy Spirit will continue to reveal His truth to you in accordance with His will. I also pray that we see a day when Christendom will be fully restored and reunited and we will, as one voice, profess the One True Holy Faith as given to the Apostles by Christ and fully initiated by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Amen

Christ is Risen!!

Amen, amen, amen.

Indeed He is Risen!
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« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2011, 04:09:51 PM »

Thank you for sharing your story. Smiley

Yes -- thank you.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #75 on: April 25, 2011, 04:50:55 PM »

Thank you for sharing your story. Smiley

Yes -- thank you.

Welcome...to you both.
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ignatius
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« Reply #76 on: May 02, 2011, 12:22:05 AM »

Interesting. As a Catholic, I am somewhat perplexed as to why you made the decision that you did, but I appreciate the information. To me, since I believe the Pope to be a legitimate bishop as well as supreme pastor of the Universal Church, I'm not sure if I could have a home parish which is part of a communion which does not even recognize the Pope as a valid bishop, let alone his role in the Universal Church. Of course, that's just me. If I were in danger of death and had the permission of an Eastern Orthodox priest or bishop to receive the Eucharist then I probably would since we, as a whole, believe they retain Apostolic Succession and Sacraments. However, apart from such dire circumstances I cannot see myself communing anywhere but within canonical boundaries of the Catholic Church.

Don't confuse things for me Wyatt.  I do not commune in Orthodoxy.  The parish is my liturgical and spiritual home and anchor. 

M.
Oops...my bad. What I meant to say was that I couldn't see myself even settling into an Eastern Orthodox parish when they deny the Pope. That's denying a major tenet of Catholicism (plus purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, etc.). I would consider visiting an EO parish perhaps, but I would not make it my spiritual home. I'm sure you have your reasons though, and if you don't wish to discuss them then that is fine.

When you are fed, you just don't think about such concerns... The ascesis found within Holy Orthodoxy is truly fulfilling and you just don't concern yourself with the papacy. Our relationship with God isn't found in our views of the papacy but in Christ and the mysteries of His Church. The way of life of the Church... the faith is a lived thing. I don't know how else to describe it.

I believe honestly that I am a better Catholic within the refuge of the Orthodox Church. I share more in common with her saints as an Orthodox Christian living the Liturgical Feast Days than I do with the modern Vatican II reformed Liturgical Year. The Faith is just 'intact' here in a way that is simply not present in the Western Church. I'm not saying that there isn't holiness within the West. I'm sure there is but Holy Orthodoxy is the True Faith. I'm certain of that. My relationship with the Pope doesn't change that. I think that is the whole point of our continued division.
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St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
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