OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 21, 2014, 07:23:51 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: How does Protestantism affect your faith?  (Read 4774 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2011, 11:33:34 AM »

So at the end of the day, is lifestyle more important than adherence to correct doctrine?

Don't get me wrong, I am fascinated with the Amish and I get what you are saying. But there are MANY issues in the Anabaptist church that are being overlooked because of their simplistic lifestyle.

Even the demons fast. We cannot judge by piety alone.

However, it is possible that God will overlook their beliefs for the sake of their works. I don't know. I do know that the Orthodox will be held to the highest standard and will have no excuse on Judgment Day for what we do or leave undone.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 11:35:11 AM by bogdan » Logged
IsmiLiora
Chronic Exaggerator
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: One step closer!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOA)
Posts: 3,434


Back by unpopular demand.


« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2011, 11:35:52 AM »

Exactly. Heck, I would probably be a Buddhist or Muslim if I picked my faith based on their lifestyle alone.
Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,271


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2011, 12:32:10 PM »

So at the end of the day, is lifestyle more important than adherence to correct doctrine?

Don't get me wrong, I am fascinated with the Amish and I get what you are saying. But there are MANY issues in the Anabaptist church that are being overlooked because of their simplistic lifestyle.

Again MY OPINION disclaimer.

That's exactly the question I ask myself IsmiLiora.  The issues though that I have would not call it "correct doctrine", but rather "doctrine".
The question that I manifest around doctrine is "what are the fruits of the doctrine" and "does God really care about most doctrines".

Does God really care if you venerate icons, cross yourself, or be near incense?  Believe me the church wants you to, church dogma and traditions want you to.... But does God?

I'm not sure.

But when I see the fruits of the Anabaptists (again disclaimer of my opinion) being far superior and greater than the Eastern Orthodox, I have to recognize that Jesus Christ said "you will know them by their fruits".   For instance,  I see the Anabaptist divorce rate at 2% it really makes me think about fruits.

Yes there are issues that I do see with the Anabaptists, but believe me, there is way less explanation needed with them that I hear of people having to explain Eastern Orthodoxy.

For instance:
Old Order Amish with no power - "We stay off the grid to not be worldly and take our time with new technology to make sure it will not inhibit family life, our faith, or our church".

Eastern Orthodox Icon veneration - How many books, arguments, and explanations have been written on the subject?

The difference:
Anabaptist no power:
We can understand why the Amish / Mennonites do what they do.  We can see the evil influence many television shows have on our lives, how the internet does take time from the family, and how we can't ever "be alone" and not be bothered by a ringing cell phone.   It's very clear cut, and the understanding is clear.  Whether or not we still have these technologies is a different issue.  But it's easy to understand and I believe most people can see their point clearly.

Eastern Orthodox Icon Veneration:
There are countless people who call this idol worship, and making "images of things in Earth and Heaven".  There are vast debates that rage on the internet about iconography, as well as in ancient history with the iconoclasts.  There are many books written on the "explanation" on why it is okay to venerate icons.  "No it's not wood & paint, it's the representation of the real saint we are venerating and not worshipping".   I get it.  I get it....  But look, is this person really kissing a God, or paint & wood? http://yya.oca.org/pages/Galleries/Camps/Camps2001/StVladimirsOH/images/Veneratingtheicons.jpg   Many people see it as a head game, taught to children when they are young.  A brainwashing of a sense.   Load this up with centuries of debate like "Even if she was kissing Christ, even John the apostle was not worthy to untie his sandals", and "Judas betrayed Christ with a kiss which is the one time he was kissed".   And so forth.  Tons of explanations, tons of reasons, long, drawn out dogma, doctrine, and it leaves tons of people confused.

Obviously I'm confused.   Look the icon is not Christ.  Period.  It was painted by a man.   When I kiss it I'm not kissing Christ, it's not warm as the "human nature" should be.  Lots and lots of confusion here.    Plus to add JEWS were completely AGAINST any type of painting or icon.   So then goes in the long drawn out arguments of St. Luke, etc. etc.   It's long, it's confusing.... SO the next thing you know people are fighting about icons for centuries (dogma/doctrine) when they should be being Christians doing good works.

This is basically what I am talking about here.  So much "filler & confusion" and in the end does God even care about these things?  

I remember when I was a child heavily participating in Eastern Orthodoxy, I leaned over and venerated an Icon.  I was thinking about the Theotokos.  Then I thought, "wait a second, this is really NOT the Theotokos or the person behind it, this is hard, cold wood."... and "why does she look like she is glowing, I wonder if she glowed...".

So in my opinion, I see the "argument" on both sides.  But I don't think anybody can argue that "icons are not really necessary".  I believe most EO Christians would say Icons are not absolutely needed in worship, or needed to have the Eucharist, or anywhere else.  They are more "nice" to have around.   So why bring into the church something that so many people have fought over for centuries and causes people mass confusion?

You see where this is going?
Anabapists have very simple and easy to understand explanations of why they do what they do.
Eastern Orthodox have books and centuries of in fighting and debates over things that many don't even find necessary.

This is why I have immense respect even if not faith in Anabaptist belief.  Even my family dresses as the Anabaptists.  Yes people DO point fingers here in Texas.  But my wife is 100% behind it, and knows she did not exploit children overseas and is dressing as a Christian conservative.  She sews all the kids clothes.

Sometimes all one has to do is look on the back of their church clothes tags to realize the irony of their Christianity.

The Anabaptist "fruit" has heavily made me consider them.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 12:38:39 PM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
ndigila
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Alexandria (Archdiocese of Kenya)
Posts: 30



« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2011, 02:00:52 PM »

Eastern Orthodox Icon veneration - How many books, arguments, and explanations have been written on the subject?

Eastern Orthodox Icon Veneration:
There are countless people who call this idol worship, and making "images of things in Earth and Heaven".  There are vast debates that rage on the internet about iconography, as well as in ancient history with the iconoclasts.  There are many books written on the "explanation" on why it is okay to venerate icons.  "No it's not wood & paint, it's the representation of the real saint we are venerating and not worshipping".   I get it.  I get it....  But look, is this person really kissing a God, or paint & wood? http://yya.oca.org/pages/Galleries/Camps/Camps2001/StVladimirsOH/images/Veneratingtheicons.jpg   Many people see it as a head game, taught to children when they are young.  A brainwashing of a sense.   Load this up with centuries of debate like "Even if she was kissing Christ, even John the apostle was not worthy to untie his sandals", and "Judas betrayed Christ with a kiss which is the one time he was kissed".   And so forth.  Tons of explanations, tons of reasons, long, drawn out dogma, doctrine, and it leaves tons of people confused.
At the same time, those who attack the use of icons do so very passionately with historical and theological arguments.  Correct me if I'm wrong here, but what you're calling tons of explanations and reasons about icons are a RESPONSE to the iconoclasts. 
 
Plus to add JEWS were completely AGAINST any type of painting or icon.  
Not sure this is true since the jews had icons in the tabernacle and in the temple.
Logged

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2011, 02:40:50 PM »

I have to listen to converts / inquirers / catachumens from Protestant backgrounds go through religious rehab and want dish on stuff they don't understand from their own faith and prove to me Orthodoxy is absolutely, as they understand it, true in everyway.

And I just want to drink some coffee and maybe eat something.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2011, 03:33:05 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




Does God really care if you venerate icons, cross yourself, or be near incense?  Believe me the church wants you to, church dogma and traditions want you to.... But does God?

I'm not sure.


No, He doesn't.  God has instituted the Apostolic Church and the Holy Tradition to give human beings an outlet and mechanism for their worshiping spirit which dwells in a physical form.  These things are a lifestyle to reorient ourselves towards God in everything we do, they are not a means to an end being salvation.  Icons, incense and prayers do not save us, God alone does that, however icons, incense, and prayers bring our consciousness closer to God.  After all, if people can watch TV and read books to distract their attentions, why shouldn't the Church have its own means to concentrate our same attentions?

Quote

But when I see the fruits of the Anabaptists (again disclaimer of my opinion) being far superior and greater than the Eastern Orthodox, I have to recognize that Jesus Christ said "you will know them by their fruits".   For instance,  I see the Anabaptist divorce rate at 2% it really makes me think about fruits.

Yes there are issues that I do see with the Anabaptists, but believe me, there is way less explanation needed with them that I hear of people having to explain Eastern Orthodoxy.

For instance:
Old Order Amish with no power - "We stay off the grid to not be worldly and take our time with new technology to make sure it will not inhibit family life, our faith, or our church".

Eastern Orthodox Icon veneration - How many books, arguments, and explanations have been written on the subject?

The difference:
Anabaptist no power:
We can understand why the Amish / Mennonites do what they do.  We can see the evil influence many television shows have on our lives, how the internet does take time from the family, and how we can't ever "be alone" and not be bothered by a ringing cell phone.   It's very clear cut, and the understanding is clear.  Whether or not we still have these technologies is a different issue.  But it's easy to understand and I believe most people can see their point clearly.


You are idealizing a group of Christians and should not do so, because in the process you are inherently demonizing another group of Christians.  Human beings are what we are, flawed individuals, and the Amish, Menonites, Anabaptists, or EO are no different or no exceptions.  You should not then get into some kind of comparison, because it is cultural and historical and inherently biased.  These fruits you mentioned are everywhere, and if the Amish and Anabaptists are so perfect, why do their children grow up and marry outside and move away?  Alas alas, because they are just human beings like the rest of us, even if they aspire to a near monastical culture for their whole population.

Quote
Eastern Orthodox Icon Veneration:
There are countless people who call this idol worship, and making "images of things in Earth and Heaven".  There are vast debates that rage on the internet about iconography, as well as in ancient history with the iconoclasts.  There are many books written on the "explanation" on why it is okay to venerate icons.  "No it's not wood & paint, it's the representation of the real saint we are venerating and not worshipping".   I get it.  I get it....

Obviously I'm confused.   Look the icon is not Christ.  Period.  It was painted by a man.   When I kiss it I'm not kissing Christ, it's not warm as the "human nature" should be.  Lots and lots of confusion here.  

We have these same internal debates and you are right to have questions, but perhaps your intentions are in the wrong direction.  You are going into your investigation of iconography with a chip on your shoulder against it, and so you are only seeing the flaws.  We in the Church have the same gripes you do with worshipers who misinterpret icons in the Church, with those of us Orthodox who confuse worship and veneration.  We are very specific in this.  Again, Icons are a kind of tool, and instrument for spiritual exercise, but just like physical exercise, you need a personal trainer to properly show you how to use the equipment or the move, or you may actually hurt yourself! It is the same with spiritual exercises, if people just pick up icons with no training, it would be the same as if they just starting bench pressing with no instructor or doing wild lunges and crazy angled sit ups, what would happen, they would hurt themselves or pull something!

 



Quote
Anabapists have very simple and easy to understand explanations of why they do what they do.
Eastern Orthodox have books and centuries of in fighting and debates over things that many don't even find necessary.

This is why I have immense respect even if not faith in Anabaptist belief.  Even my family dresses as the Anabaptists.  Yes people DO point fingers here in Texas.  But my wife is 100% behind it, and knows she did not exploit children overseas and is dressing as a Christian conservative.  She sews all the kids clothes.

Sometimes all one has to do is look on the back of their church clothes tags to realize the irony of their Christianity.

The Anabaptist "fruit" has heavily made me consider them.

You are seeing this fruit through a biased lens, so inherently you see it one-sided.  If you were a bit more experienced in a different direction, perhaps you would see the fruit in different ways.  There are many in Orthodox who sincerely believe in Sacramental worship, and feel that the Anabaptists are dangerous seditionists who lure Christians away from the Sacraments, and that only Sacramental worship can bring salvation, so these Orthodox feel in their hearts that Anabaptists are in fact dangerous to the souls! I do not necessarily ascribe to this kind of thinking, God alone can reveal Himself to anyone.  Orthodox Church is not there to Crusade against heresy or falsehoods, Orthodox Church is there to simply exist and offer folks the opportunity to receive the Sacraments when and where God Himself invites Christians to receive them, in God's own Time and for God's own purpose.  My advice to you is to take yourself out of the study and book reading, and live in the spirit of the matter, if you believe in God, take these questions to Him and not the Canons and Law books of the Church.  God knows best as you said, He will tell it you in His time..

stay blessed,
Habte Selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,343

"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2011, 03:42:54 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




Does God really care if you venerate icons, cross yourself, or be near incense?  Believe me the church wants you to, church dogma and traditions want you to.... But does God?

I'm not sure.


No, He doesn't.  God has instituted the Apostolic Church and the Holy Tradition to give human beings an outlet and mechanism for their worshiping spirit which dwells in a physical form.  These things are a lifestyle to reorient ourselves towards God in everything we do, they are not a means to an end being salvation.  Icons, incense and prayers do not save us, God alone does that, however icons, incense, and prayers bring our consciousness closer to God.  After all, if people can watch TV and read books to distract their attentions, why shouldn't the Church have its own means to concentrate our same attentions?

Quote

But when I see the fruits of the Anabaptists (again disclaimer of my opinion) being far superior and greater than the Eastern Orthodox, I have to recognize that Jesus Christ said "you will know them by their fruits".   For instance,  I see the Anabaptist divorce rate at 2% it really makes me think about fruits.

Yes there are issues that I do see with the Anabaptists, but believe me, there is way less explanation needed with them that I hear of people having to explain Eastern Orthodoxy.

For instance:
Old Order Amish with no power - "We stay off the grid to not be worldly and take our time with new technology to make sure it will not inhibit family life, our faith, or our church".

Eastern Orthodox Icon veneration - How many books, arguments, and explanations have been written on the subject?

The difference:
Anabaptist no power:
We can understand why the Amish / Mennonites do what they do.  We can see the evil influence many television shows have on our lives, how the internet does take time from the family, and how we can't ever "be alone" and not be bothered by a ringing cell phone.   It's very clear cut, and the understanding is clear.  Whether or not we still have these technologies is a different issue.  But it's easy to understand and I believe most people can see their point clearly.


You are idealizing a group of Christians and should not do so, because in the process you are inherently demonizing another group of Christians.  Human beings are what we are, flawed individuals, and the Amish, Menonites, Anabaptists, or EO are no different or no exceptions.  You should not then get into some kind of comparison, because it is cultural and historical and inherently biased.  These fruits you mentioned are everywhere, and if the Amish and Anabaptists are so perfect, why do their children grow up and marry outside and move away?  Alas alas, because they are just human beings like the rest of us, even if they aspire to a near monastical culture for their whole population.

Quote
Eastern Orthodox Icon Veneration:
There are countless people who call this idol worship, and making "images of things in Earth and Heaven".  There are vast debates that rage on the internet about iconography, as well as in ancient history with the iconoclasts.  There are many books written on the "explanation" on why it is okay to venerate icons.  "No it's not wood & paint, it's the representation of the real saint we are venerating and not worshipping".   I get it.  I get it....

Obviously I'm confused.   Look the icon is not Christ.  Period.  It was painted by a man.   When I kiss it I'm not kissing Christ, it's not warm as the "human nature" should be.  Lots and lots of confusion here.  

We have these same internal debates and you are right to have questions, but perhaps your intentions are in the wrong direction.  You are going into your investigation of iconography with a chip on your shoulder against it, and so you are only seeing the flaws.  We in the Church have the same gripes you do with worshipers who misinterpret icons in the Church, with those of us Orthodox who confuse worship and veneration.  We are very specific in this.  Again, Icons are a kind of tool, and instrument for spiritual exercise, but just like physical exercise, you need a personal trainer to properly show you how to use the equipment or the move, or you may actually hurt yourself! It is the same with spiritual exercises, if people just pick up icons with no training, it would be the same as if they just starting bench pressing with no instructor or doing wild lunges and crazy angled sit ups, what would happen, they would hurt themselves or pull something!

 



Quote
Anabapists have very simple and easy to understand explanations of why they do what they do.
Eastern Orthodox have books and centuries of in fighting and debates over things that many don't even find necessary.

This is why I have immense respect even if not faith in Anabaptist belief.  Even my family dresses as the Anabaptists.  Yes people DO point fingers here in Texas.  But my wife is 100% behind it, and knows she did not exploit children overseas and is dressing as a Christian conservative.  She sews all the kids clothes.

Sometimes all one has to do is look on the back of their church clothes tags to realize the irony of their Christianity.

The Anabaptist "fruit" has heavily made me consider them.

You are seeing this fruit through a biased lens, so inherently you see it one-sided.  If you were a bit more experienced in a different direction, perhaps you would see the fruit in different ways.  There are many in Orthodox who sincerely believe in Sacramental worship, and feel that the Anabaptists are dangerous seditionists who lure Christians away from the Sacraments, and that only Sacramental worship can bring salvation, so these Orthodox feel in their hearts that Anabaptists are in fact dangerous to the souls! I do not necessarily ascribe to this kind of thinking, God alone can reveal Himself to anyone.  Orthodox Church is not there to Crusade against heresy or falsehoods, Orthodox Church is there to simply exist and offer folks the opportunity to receive the Sacraments when and where God Himself invites Christians to receive them, in God's own Time and for God's own purpose.  My advice to you is to take yourself out of the study and book reading, and live in the spirit of the matter, if you believe in God, take these questions to Him and not the Canons and Law books of the Church.  God knows best as you said, He will tell it you in His time..

stay blessed,
Habte Selassie


Good reasonings brother HabteSelassie. Give thanks.


Selam
Logged

"Those who have nothing constructive to offer are masters at belittling the offerings of others." +GMK+
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,271


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2011, 04:32:51 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




Does God really care if you venerate icons, cross yourself, or be near incense?  Believe me the church wants you to, church dogma and traditions want you to.... But does God?

I'm not sure.


No, He doesn't.  God has instituted the Apostolic Church and the Holy Tradition to give human beings an outlet and mechanism for their worshiping spirit which dwells in a physical form.  These things are a lifestyle to reorient ourselves towards God in everything we do, they are not a means to an end being salvation.  Icons, incense and prayers do not save us, God alone does that, however icons, incense, and prayers bring our consciousness closer to God.  After all, if people can watch TV and read books to distract their attentions, why shouldn't the Church have its own means to concentrate our same attentions?

Quote

But when I see the fruits of the Anabaptists (again disclaimer of my opinion) being far superior and greater than the Eastern Orthodox, I have to recognize that Jesus Christ said "you will know them by their fruits".   For instance,  I see the Anabaptist divorce rate at 2% it really makes me think about fruits.

Yes there are issues that I do see with the Anabaptists, but believe me, there is way less explanation needed with them that I hear of people having to explain Eastern Orthodoxy.

For instance:
Old Order Amish with no power - "We stay off the grid to not be worldly and take our time with new technology to make sure it will not inhibit family life, our faith, or our church".

Eastern Orthodox Icon veneration - How many books, arguments, and explanations have been written on the subject?

The difference:
Anabaptist no power:
We can understand why the Amish / Mennonites do what they do.  We can see the evil influence many television shows have on our lives, how the internet does take time from the family, and how we can't ever "be alone" and not be bothered by a ringing cell phone.   It's very clear cut, and the understanding is clear.  Whether or not we still have these technologies is a different issue.  But it's easy to understand and I believe most people can see their point clearly.


You are idealizing a group of Christians and should not do so, because in the process you are inherently demonizing another group of Christians.  Human beings are what we are, flawed individuals, and the Amish, Menonites, Anabaptists, or EO are no different or no exceptions.  You should not then get into some kind of comparison, because it is cultural and historical and inherently biased.  These fruits you mentioned are everywhere, and if the Amish and Anabaptists are so perfect, why do their children grow up and marry outside and move away?  Alas alas, because they are just human beings like the rest of us, even if they aspire to a near monastical culture for their whole population.

Quote
Eastern Orthodox Icon Veneration:
There are countless people who call this idol worship, and making "images of things in Earth and Heaven".  There are vast debates that rage on the internet about iconography, as well as in ancient history with the iconoclasts.  There are many books written on the "explanation" on why it is okay to venerate icons.  "No it's not wood & paint, it's the representation of the real saint we are venerating and not worshipping".   I get it.  I get it....

Obviously I'm confused.   Look the icon is not Christ.  Period.  It was painted by a man.   When I kiss it I'm not kissing Christ, it's not warm as the "human nature" should be.  Lots and lots of confusion here.  

We have these same internal debates and you are right to have questions, but perhaps your intentions are in the wrong direction.  You are going into your investigation of iconography with a chip on your shoulder against it, and so you are only seeing the flaws.  We in the Church have the same gripes you do with worshipers who misinterpret icons in the Church, with those of us Orthodox who confuse worship and veneration.  We are very specific in this.  Again, Icons are a kind of tool, and instrument for spiritual exercise, but just like physical exercise, you need a personal trainer to properly show you how to use the equipment or the move, or you may actually hurt yourself! It is the same with spiritual exercises, if people just pick up icons with no training, it would be the same as if they just starting bench pressing with no instructor or doing wild lunges and crazy angled sit ups, what would happen, they would hurt themselves or pull something!

 



Quote
Anabapists have very simple and easy to understand explanations of why they do what they do.
Eastern Orthodox have books and centuries of in fighting and debates over things that many don't even find necessary.

This is why I have immense respect even if not faith in Anabaptist belief.  Even my family dresses as the Anabaptists.  Yes people DO point fingers here in Texas.  But my wife is 100% behind it, and knows she did not exploit children overseas and is dressing as a Christian conservative.  She sews all the kids clothes.

Sometimes all one has to do is look on the back of their church clothes tags to realize the irony of their Christianity.

The Anabaptist "fruit" has heavily made me consider them.

You are seeing this fruit through a biased lens, so inherently you see it one-sided.  If you were a bit more experienced in a different direction, perhaps you would see the fruit in different ways.  There are many in Orthodox who sincerely believe in Sacramental worship, and feel that the Anabaptists are dangerous seditionists who lure Christians away from the Sacraments, and that only Sacramental worship can bring salvation, so these Orthodox feel in their hearts that Anabaptists are in fact dangerous to the souls! I do not necessarily ascribe to this kind of thinking, God alone can reveal Himself to anyone.  Orthodox Church is not there to Crusade against heresy or falsehoods, Orthodox Church is there to simply exist and offer folks the opportunity to receive the Sacraments when and where God Himself invites Christians to receive them, in God's own Time and for God's own purpose.  My advice to you is to take yourself out of the study and book reading, and live in the spirit of the matter, if you believe in God, take these questions to Him and not the Canons and Law books of the Church.  God knows best as you said, He will tell it you in His time..

stay blessed,
Habte Selassie

Okay, just to clarify, this was answering the OP's question and MY opinion.

The first thing you said is that God doesn't care if we have icons and incense.  So basically if God does not care about these things they do not matter.
I for one would think that God would prefer us focus on him by doing his will, by helping one another, helping the weak, helping the sick, and being charitable and kind.  Something the Anabaptists are immeasurable in comparison from everything I have witnessed for years in EO.  So basically what I was saying is the Anabaptists draw me away from EO because in EO, we venerate an icon, cross ourselves, bow, cross ourselves again, and sometimes re-venerate.  All the incense... Pointless.   I went to an Anabaptist church for one day as a visitor, and was invited to an event after church.  I watched as they went and rebuilt (men, women, and children) rebuilt the roof of an old woman's home that was caving in.  All for free.  They even fed her dinner.  She was a Roman Catholic.   The next week they were bringing Mack truck of goods to poor migrant farmers.   This is a little church too with less than 100 people. 

So as bad as this sounds, in EO I found myself thinking I was being a true Christian....  But if one simply thinks "would God rather us cross ourselves, bow to him, cross again, bow again, cross again, bow again....  Get a blessing, kiss hand, cross ourselves.  Walk away, cross ourselves, bow, then kiss and icon and re-cross ourselves......  or spend our time helping anybody.   Look I don't want to sound like its EO bashing, but its a reality that I have lived and witnessed.  Anabaptists have proven to me their charity more to their fellow man without all the "filler".

Understand that I'm idealizing them because truly they are worth idealizing, and their charity and how the group as a whole are contempt in what they have, should be a role model for EO Christians.

You are right, they are not perfect, and I did not call them perfect.  Many of their children do grow up and move away.  Some stay, some move and move back as well.  You may want to ask yourself if carrying the cross down the narrow path is easy?  Many are not cut out for it.

Here's my question for you.  If EO is so perfect and Anabaptist is not why do the EO have a much higher divorce rate?
Greek Orthodox - 14%
http://www.helleniccomserve.com/divorceperspective.html
Anabaptist - 1% (link also explains the move away rate at 15%)
http://www.examiner.com/frugal-living-in-national/amish-wealth

I am not demonizing Eastern Orthodoxy, the OP asked basically how other faiths have taken a toll on the EO faith.   This is how.  By their fruits.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder coming into the iconography debate.  I accepted it as a child, and as I child I started questioning it.  The questions continued and now I see the practice as bizarre and not required by God, and not helping with anybodies salvation.

I don't agree that I'm seeing this from a biased lens.  (My opinion) I believe the Eastern Orthodox are unfortunately stuck behind an opaque lens.  They are so stuck that "we are right" that they can't even draw reasonable and logical questions.  They accept what they were handed, and never consider how far things have come from the original church because they consider themselves the original church. Many of my questions I asked have been centered around this.  "Did Jesus use an iconostasis, Did the apostles cross themselves"....  Barely any of this "filler" happened before Nicea.  So much centered around "doctrine and dogma", and the people in need are so often cast aside.

Are Anabaptists basically taking people away from "the sacraments".  No wait, the 7 sacraments....
Who made up term "the 7 sacraments"
Who said "the 7 sacraments can only be performed by clergy"
Men did this, and they have a worldly church.  In America registered under 501c3 incorporated status.

Tithing was meant for widows & orphans.... Remember that.  I have been a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian for many years, and NEVER not ONCE did I see them donate money or goods to widows or orphans.  Mostly the money went into enhancing the church somehow.  I'm not saying it was never without charity which is good, but frankly, the Anabaptists I have seen have given astronomically to those in need in gut wrenching forms.   

The question exists if the EO are wrong for "evolving".  I don't know.

But I was directly answering the OP with MY OPINION.   A non-Orthodox church really effected my faith by their "Good Fruits", which I have seen them produce.

The interesting thing is the EO have vast history compared to the Anabaptists, so it leaves me in limbo.

My questions are, did the Eastern Orthodox evolve so much in dogma and doctrine that they became too full of "filler"?
Do the Anabaptists have grace since they basically skipped back to the Early Christians and act so today? (pre Nicea)

Who goes to heaven, the one with the 7 sacraments with grace from a church that has an enormous history & succession,
or
the ones who are not of this world, give freely in charity, do not participate in the military, are non resistant, and help oogles of people?

An EO answer would be "the one with grace" of course.  Because that's the easy answer when you are "sure the faith is right".
Anabaptists would not even be concerned with this answer.

Anyway, I hope the OP understands my answer.




Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2011, 04:49:30 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




Does God really care if you venerate icons, cross yourself, or be near incense?  Believe me the church wants you to, church dogma and traditions want you to.... But does God?

I'm not sure.


No, He doesn't.  God has instituted the Apostolic Church and the Holy Tradition to give human beings an outlet and mechanism for their worshiping spirit which dwells in a physical form.  These things are a lifestyle to reorient ourselves towards God in everything we do, they are not a means to an end being salvation.  Icons, incense and prayers do not save us, God alone does that, however icons, incense, and prayers bring our consciousness closer to God.  After all, if people can watch TV and read books to distract their attentions, why shouldn't the Church have its own means to concentrate our same attentions?

Quote

But when I see the fruits of the Anabaptists (again disclaimer of my opinion) being far superior and greater than the Eastern Orthodox, I have to recognize that Jesus Christ said "you will know them by their fruits".   For instance,  I see the Anabaptist divorce rate at 2% it really makes me think about fruits.

Yes there are issues that I do see with the Anabaptists, but believe me, there is way less explanation needed with them that I hear of people having to explain Eastern Orthodoxy.

For instance:
Old Order Amish with no power - "We stay off the grid to not be worldly and take our time with new technology to make sure it will not inhibit family life, our faith, or our church".

Eastern Orthodox Icon veneration - How many books, arguments, and explanations have been written on the subject?

The difference:
Anabaptist no power:
We can understand why the Amish / Mennonites do what they do.  We can see the evil influence many television shows have on our lives, how the internet does take time from the family, and how we can't ever "be alone" and not be bothered by a ringing cell phone.   It's very clear cut, and the understanding is clear.  Whether or not we still have these technologies is a different issue.  But it's easy to understand and I believe most people can see their point clearly.


You are idealizing a group of Christians and should not do so, because in the process you are inherently demonizing another group of Christians.  Human beings are what we are, flawed individuals, and the Amish, Menonites, Anabaptists, or EO are no different or no exceptions.  You should not then get into some kind of comparison, because it is cultural and historical and inherently biased.  These fruits you mentioned are everywhere, and if the Amish and Anabaptists are so perfect, why do their children grow up and marry outside and move away?  Alas alas, because they are just human beings like the rest of us, even if they aspire to a near monastical culture for their whole population.

Quote
Eastern Orthodox Icon Veneration:
There are countless people who call this idol worship, and making "images of things in Earth and Heaven".  There are vast debates that rage on the internet about iconography, as well as in ancient history with the iconoclasts.  There are many books written on the "explanation" on why it is okay to venerate icons.  "No it's not wood & paint, it's the representation of the real saint we are venerating and not worshipping".   I get it.  I get it....

Obviously I'm confused.   Look the icon is not Christ.  Period.  It was painted by a man.   When I kiss it I'm not kissing Christ, it's not warm as the "human nature" should be.  Lots and lots of confusion here.  

We have these same internal debates and you are right to have questions, but perhaps your intentions are in the wrong direction.  You are going into your investigation of iconography with a chip on your shoulder against it, and so you are only seeing the flaws.  We in the Church have the same gripes you do with worshipers who misinterpret icons in the Church, with those of us Orthodox who confuse worship and veneration.  We are very specific in this.  Again, Icons are a kind of tool, and instrument for spiritual exercise, but just like physical exercise, you need a personal trainer to properly show you how to use the equipment or the move, or you may actually hurt yourself! It is the same with spiritual exercises, if people just pick up icons with no training, it would be the same as if they just starting bench pressing with no instructor or doing wild lunges and crazy angled sit ups, what would happen, they would hurt themselves or pull something!

 



Quote
Anabapists have very simple and easy to understand explanations of why they do what they do.
Eastern Orthodox have books and centuries of in fighting and debates over things that many don't even find necessary.

This is why I have immense respect even if not faith in Anabaptist belief.  Even my family dresses as the Anabaptists.  Yes people DO point fingers here in Texas.  But my wife is 100% behind it, and knows she did not exploit children overseas and is dressing as a Christian conservative.  She sews all the kids clothes.

Sometimes all one has to do is look on the back of their church clothes tags to realize the irony of their Christianity.

The Anabaptist "fruit" has heavily made me consider them.

You are seeing this fruit through a biased lens, so inherently you see it one-sided.  If you were a bit more experienced in a different direction, perhaps you would see the fruit in different ways.  There are many in Orthodox who sincerely believe in Sacramental worship, and feel that the Anabaptists are dangerous seditionists who lure Christians away from the Sacraments, and that only Sacramental worship can bring salvation, so these Orthodox feel in their hearts that Anabaptists are in fact dangerous to the souls! I do not necessarily ascribe to this kind of thinking, God alone can reveal Himself to anyone.  Orthodox Church is not there to Crusade against heresy or falsehoods, Orthodox Church is there to simply exist and offer folks the opportunity to receive the Sacraments when and where God Himself invites Christians to receive them, in God's own Time and for God's own purpose.  My advice to you is to take yourself out of the study and book reading, and live in the spirit of the matter, if you believe in God, take these questions to Him and not the Canons and Law books of the Church.  God knows best as you said, He will tell it you in His time..

stay blessed,
Habte Selassie


Good reasonings brother HabteSelassie. Give thanks.


Selam


Always one of the best posters.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
JimCBrooklyn
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate-Diocese of Saint Petersburg/ROCOR-Diocese of Eastern America and New York
Posts: 569


Если бога нет, то все позволено


« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2011, 05:44:14 PM »

Really good thoughts from habteselassie.

I really think that you, yeshusisiam, are viewing all of this through far too materialistic of a lens. Feeding the poor, helping others, are absolutely, fundamentally parts of what we are called and compelled to do as Christians, no question. However, to hold this up in comparison to worship in any context, trying to determine which is better, or more pleasing to God, is simply performing a futile exercise. From a strictly materialist, modern standpoint, obviously, me giving lunch to the man on the street is a far more virtuous act than me praying in front of and venerating an icon (and I'm not accusing you of being a materialist, I'm saying it's a poor comparison), but by this logic, most Protestant expressions of worship, even the "simplest" ones, those found amongst Anabaptists, etc., such as spending some time reading ones bible, would be equally futile. The point is, as others have stated more eloquently, that Orthodox worship (and perhaps all worship) is a treasury of means through which we access our creator, and we operate in a spiritual world, as well as a material world. I am certain that you are aware of this, but for me, like any other mewling human being who is struggling to know the Lord, it gets tough, and it gets complex, and the more tools at my disposal, the better off I am.

When I pray, or venerate an icon, and am able to more fully contemplate the meaning behind that icon, just like when I read the bible, take communion, fast, or even just pray for someone I don't like much, my spirit is closer to God. No one may have been fed from it, but perhaps one more soul, mine, will grow in faith, and perhaps someday that faith may yield more spiritual fruit, in ways that I can't understand. Habteselassie was right on in saying that these things help "reorient" us. I'm a spoiled brat from a spoiled family of atheists. I get distracted, and caught up in a lot of fluff in the world. I have trouble not thinking about the tension in my psoas as it relates to doing squats in the gym tomorrow as I bow in prayer. The icon gets me out of that place.

Focusing on the worldly benefits of spiritual exercise is useless. It all looks dumb through that lens. Read what Mark Twain had to say about heaven?
Logged

It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,271


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2011, 10:58:33 PM »

Really good thoughts from habteselassie.

I really think that you, yeshusisiam, are viewing all of this through far too materialistic of a lens. Feeding the poor, helping others, are absolutely, fundamentally parts of what we are called and compelled to do as Christians, no question. However, to hold this up in comparison to worship in any context, trying to determine which is better, or more pleasing to God, is simply performing a futile exercise. From a strictly materialist, modern standpoint, obviously, me giving lunch to the man on the street is a far more virtuous act than me praying in front of and venerating an icon (and I'm not accusing you of being a materialist, I'm saying it's a poor comparison), but by this logic, most Protestant expressions of worship, even the "simplest" ones, those found amongst Anabaptists, etc., such as spending some time reading ones bible, would be equally futile. The point is, as others have stated more eloquently, that Orthodox worship (and perhaps all worship) is a treasury of means through which we access our creator, and we operate in a spiritual world, as well as a material world. I am certain that you are aware of this, but for me, like any other mewling human being who is struggling to know the Lord, it gets tough, and it gets complex, and the more tools at my disposal, the better off I am.

When I pray, or venerate an icon, and am able to more fully contemplate the meaning behind that icon, just like when I read the bible, take communion, fast, or even just pray for someone I don't like much, my spirit is closer to God. No one may have been fed from it, but perhaps one more soul, mine, will grow in faith, and perhaps someday that faith may yield more spiritual fruit, in ways that I can't understand. Habteselassie was right on in saying that these things help "reorient" us. I'm a spoiled brat from a spoiled family of atheists. I get distracted, and caught up in a lot of fluff in the world. I have trouble not thinking about the tension in my psoas as it relates to doing squats in the gym tomorrow as I bow in prayer. The icon gets me out of that place.

Focusing on the worldly benefits of spiritual exercise is useless. It all looks dumb through that lens. Read what Mark Twain had to say about heaven?

Heh, Mark Twain was a Freemason that thinks people should pray FOR the devil...

But I understand your point.

The icons help you refocus on spirituality towards God.

From what I have experienced, both with iconography and Orthodoxy, and the Anabaptists are a completely different "focus". 

Orthodoxy has the spiritual connection when they are in prayer, bowing, and meditating on God. 
Anabaptists have spiritual connections when they pray, are charitable, and sacrificing of themselves for others.

I've witnessed people in EO crying on good Friday, which is understandable.  I've witnessed the awesome events of Pascha in EO.  All these things are awesome.  No problems other than "what is needed?".

As you said, you refocus in prayer and icon veneration.   Most EO wouldn't argue that they feel the same way.

The Anabaptist women refocus all the time in their sewing, head coverings, charity, and always considering others in everything they do.
The Anabaptist men refocus in their non-resistance, charity, and while doing their works.

What I'm basically saying is that I TRULY feel (my opinion) what has distracted me so much from Eastern Orthodoxy is the irony... Consider my example from a few posts above.  What percentage of Orthodox Christians sing "Lord have mercy!".  They are asking for God's mercy, guidance, and help.  If 99% of them if they would remove their shirts, and look at the tags, they'd find that they most likely exploited their fellow man or children (Made in Vietnam, Brazil...).  The focus has gone so in depth, with so much filler, that the EO have not looked around them at the way things are today.  It's ironic to ask for God's mercy and exploit others whether known, unknown, or conveniently forgotten.

If you consider the life of our example in Jesus Christ, you'll find that 80% of Orthodoxy is filler.  I don't say that tongue and cheek.  It's not necessarily bad filler, and the filler can do good, but not entirely necessary.  Icons, iconostasis, vestments, candles, choirs, pews or not, silver chalices, cross bow kiss cross bow, incense, table of oblation, royal doors, venerate this or that, bless this item or that item...   Again, I'm not knocking it, but it is not necessary.  Some of it is good, as you said it refocuses.

I've just seen the Anabaptists do some things that are very spiritually moving as well.  Teenagers baptized & reduced to tears for instance.   They are spiritually moved and focused on God.  Done in COMPLETE simplicity.  Nothing elaborate, no gold trim, nothing fancy at all.   Just baptism.   They were very refocused on their faith.  They are refocused in their 3+ hours of study and worship on Sundays and 2 hours on Wednesday.  Believe me they felt moved equally to what I have seen Orthodox.  All in simplicity.

So in context to the OP, yes, this distracts me from Eastern Orthodoxy. 

So there are some things I feel the EO can actually learn by examples of the Anabaptists at least.   When was the last time you had multiple Bishops scrubbing your feet humbling themselves down before you? (Then you them)  Even God did this to the apostles....  Think about it.  A completely humbled bishop washing your feet asking for forgiveness for offenses....  Yeah RIGHT!  All I've seen in EO is the bishop is placed on the high seat of honor and almost can never do any wrong.  "Do this to each other" was the command from God.  Well it's NOT done.  (sorry if I've offended but please don't be upset with me if what I say isn't true)  Trust me forgiveness Sunday is NOT even anything close to washing feet - 3 pecks say "forgive me" - once a year and you are outta there... This is not running your hands against a calloused bunion or a big hairy toe in humility asking for forgivness.

The issue I have is "Does God care - and do the Anabaptists have grace?".   That's something I don't know and pray about.  The fruit I know the Anabaptists by have dumbfounded me into some spiritual paradox.   That's what distracted me from EO that the OP's questioned.  Perhaps I'm off topic a bit because Anabaptists are neither Catholic nor Protestant.  Most consider them quasi protestant - but whatever. Smiley

Perhaps I won't find an answer.  I do really feel that there is true grace in Orthodoxy, but there is filler.
I don't know if there is any grace with the Anabaptists, but their fruits speak volumes.  "You will know them by their fruits".

So it's very distracting.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2011, 11:23:41 PM »

If you consider the life of our example in Jesus Christ, you'll find that 80% of Orthodoxy is filler.  I don't say that tongue and cheek.  It's not necessarily bad filler, and the filler can do good, but not entirely necessary.  Icons, iconostasis, vestments, candles, choirs, pews or not, silver chalices, cross bow kiss cross bow, incense, table of oblation, royal doors, venerate this or that, bless this item or that item...   Again, I'm not knocking it, but it is not necessary.  Some of it is good, as you said it refocuses.

I think that's a pretty good point, and would like to see what others chime in on this.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2011, 11:36:19 PM »

If you consider the life of our example in Jesus Christ, you'll find that 80% of Orthodoxy is filler.  I don't say that tongue and cheek.  It's not necessarily bad filler, and the filler can do good, but not entirely necessary.  Icons, iconostasis, vestments, candles, choirs, pews or not, silver chalices, cross bow kiss cross bow, incense, table of oblation, royal doors, venerate this or that, bless this item or that item...   Again, I'm not knocking it, but it is not necessary.  Some of it is good, as you said it refocuses.

I think that's a pretty good point, and would like to see what others chime in on this.

Permit me to be controversial.

Works of compassion are also "filler".

Let me prove it to you.

Imagine you live your entire life on an island entirely devoid of people and even animals -- can you be saved?

So there are some things I feel the EO can actually learn by examples of the Anabaptists at least.   When was the last time you had multiple Bishops scrubbing your feet humbling themselves down before you? (Then you them)  Even God did this to the apostles....  Think about it.  A completely humbled bishop washing your feet asking for forgiveness for offenses....  Yeah RIGHT!  All I've seen in EO is the bishop is placed on the high seat of honor and almost can never do any wrong.  "Do this to each other" was the command from God.  Well it's NOT done.  (sorry if I've offended but please don't be upset with me if what I say isn't true)  Trust me forgiveness Sunday is NOT even anything close to washing feet - 3 pecks say "forgive me" - once a year and you are outta there... This is not running your hands against a calloused bunion or a big hairy toe in humility asking for forgivness.

Just so you know, while the Cherubic Hymn is sung during the Divine Liturgy, the celebrant will come to the Royal Doors, face the congregation and bow towards the laity, asking for their forgiveness "lest any have ought against him".

By the way, the Patriarch of Jerusalem at least washes the feet of the members of his flock once a year. I'm not sure if this is a universal practice amongst bishops.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
JimCBrooklyn
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate-Diocese of Saint Petersburg/ROCOR-Diocese of Eastern America and New York
Posts: 569


Если бога нет, то все позволено


« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2011, 02:54:50 AM »

Yeshua, re:Mark Twain:
That was exactly my point. I was referring to Captain Stormfield's Visit to Heaven, in which, among other things, he very harshly mocks the angels singing the cherubic hymn. Plenty of modern detractors of religion have employed the same anti-devotional arguments you are: Nietzsche's monk in Zarathustra, etc. The idea that you're espousing here is that earthly good deeds are inherently more useful than prayer, and I just don't think that's a Christian idea.

Quantify that "80% filler", please. I think that's garbage. By that argument, I would guess plenty of these lovely Anabaptists (who I have nothing against) spend an incredible amount of time doing things other than charity.
Logged

It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,271


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2011, 11:04:42 AM »

Yeshua, re:Mark Twain:
That was exactly my point. I was referring to Captain Stormfield's Visit to Heaven, in which, among other things, he very harshly mocks the angels singing the cherubic hymn. Plenty of modern detractors of religion have employed the same anti-devotional arguments you are: Nietzsche's monk in Zarathustra, etc. The idea that you're espousing here is that earthly good deeds are inherently more useful than prayer, and I just don't think that's a Christian idea.

Quantify that "80% filler", please. I think that's garbage. By that argument, I would guess plenty of these lovely Anabaptists (who I have nothing against) spend an incredible amount of time doing things other than charity.

Yeah Mark Twain is not a friend to Christianity at all.

As far as the "filler" goes, I truly don't know another word to describe it (sorry if it sounds bad).  None of this was commanded by God for us to do at all.  Jesus Christ never once commanded people to burn candles in front of icons, have royal doors, bow & kiss, bless stuff, incense stuff, etc.    I don't think its bad, but not necessary.

The Anabaptist indeed do spend a lot of time doing other things than charity.   They work, play, go to school, and have group dinners.  Just like anybody else.  I was directly referring to the fruits of their church & culture which tends to outshine every other church I have come across in terms of giving, charity, and helping those in need.    There are countless stories of them giving their entire life savings to near strangers to help them... I've known an Amish family who had their mother killed in a buggy by a teenager in a car - they ended up paying for the teens college and that was all the $ they had.

I'm not saying that the EO are NOT charitable or that they do not help others.  I've known EO churches in Russia that tend to orphanages.  Unfortunately, those are the rares and not the general.  I don't see the life changing and tremendous self sacrificing charity in EO that I have personally seen with the Anabaptists.

Let me say something against the Anabaptists - they lack "depth".
They don't have depth like this EO prayer - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF5qeVfdavY
It is very simple - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pao2KgVe1KA

Another thing I'm trying to figure out is if God wants that depth.


Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2011, 06:14:47 PM »

I think you should read and re-read the gospel account of the sinful woman who annointed Christ.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
JimCBrooklyn
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate-Diocese of Saint Petersburg/ROCOR-Diocese of Eastern America and New York
Posts: 569


Если бога нет, то все позволено


« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2011, 02:56:23 AM »

I think you should read and re-read the gospel account of the sinful woman who annointed Christ.

That was going to be my next comment  Wink
Logged

It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,353



« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2011, 10:09:39 AM »

Quote
Yeah RIGHT!  All I've seen in EO is the bishop is placed on the high seat of honor and almost can never do any wrong.

I'm sorry, you may have a point with the rest, though I believe that you have a tendency to romanticize the Amish and demonize the Orthodox, in part because of your own personal opinions and predilections.
But this is quite simply nonsense. The honor is to the office of Bishop, and as far as people considering the Bishop can do no wrong, you should read some of the letters that are sent to a Bishop I know. They would make your hair stand on end, with nasty language, vilification, lies and false accusations. It's not an isolated nutjob either, but a regular occurence. 
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,145



« Reply #63 on: May 27, 2011, 11:08:00 PM »

Yes, Protestantism is doomed to collapse, or continue dissolving into an incoherent mass. It was doomed from day one, because it's based on people going into schism when they don't like the group they're part of.

Ah yes, going back to Martin Luther's famous tract If you don't like the group you're a part of, go into schism.

What, not even a chuckle for that? You guys must really have low opinions of Protestants.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
myrrhbear
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 194


Trust in God


« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2011, 08:50:52 PM »

It's the military, composed of many faiths including EO, that give the Anabaptists the freedom they have to worship and live their lifestyle.
Logged

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
Nero
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 115



« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2011, 10:48:59 PM »

If we're going to compare divorce rates with the intent of concluding something about the holiness of the faiths, take a look at India. With an 80% Hindu population, the country has a divorce rate of 1.1% - you wouldn't dare think that this low statistic is a confirmation of the holiness/validity of the Indian religious practices, though.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 10:53:17 PM by Nero » Logged
stavros_388
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: +
Posts: 1,253



« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2011, 12:28:38 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




Does God really care if you venerate icons, cross yourself, or be near incense?  Believe me the church wants you to, church dogma and traditions want you to.... But does God?

I'm not sure.


No, He doesn't.  God has instituted the Apostolic Church and the Holy Tradition to give human beings an outlet and mechanism for their worshiping spirit which dwells in a physical form.  These things are a lifestyle to reorient ourselves towards God in everything we do, they are not a means to an end being salvation.  Icons, incense and prayers do not save us, God alone does that, however icons, incense, and prayers bring our consciousness closer to God.  After all, if people can watch TV and read books to distract their attentions, why shouldn't the Church have its own means to concentrate our same attentions?

Quote

But when I see the fruits of the Anabaptists (again disclaimer of my opinion) being far superior and greater than the Eastern Orthodox, I have to recognize that Jesus Christ said "you will know them by their fruits".   For instance,  I see the Anabaptist divorce rate at 2% it really makes me think about fruits.

Yes there are issues that I do see with the Anabaptists, but believe me, there is way less explanation needed with them that I hear of people having to explain Eastern Orthodoxy.

For instance:
Old Order Amish with no power - "We stay off the grid to not be worldly and take our time with new technology to make sure it will not inhibit family life, our faith, or our church".

Eastern Orthodox Icon veneration - How many books, arguments, and explanations have been written on the subject?

The difference:
Anabaptist no power:
We can understand why the Amish / Mennonites do what they do.  We can see the evil influence many television shows have on our lives, how the internet does take time from the family, and how we can't ever "be alone" and not be bothered by a ringing cell phone.   It's very clear cut, and the understanding is clear.  Whether or not we still have these technologies is a different issue.  But it's easy to understand and I believe most people can see their point clearly.


You are idealizing a group of Christians and should not do so, because in the process you are inherently demonizing another group of Christians.  Human beings are what we are, flawed individuals, and the Amish, Menonites, Anabaptists, or EO are no different or no exceptions.  You should not then get into some kind of comparison, because it is cultural and historical and inherently biased.  These fruits you mentioned are everywhere, and if the Amish and Anabaptists are so perfect, why do their children grow up and marry outside and move away?  Alas alas, because they are just human beings like the rest of us, even if they aspire to a near monastical culture for their whole population.

Quote
Eastern Orthodox Icon Veneration:
There are countless people who call this idol worship, and making "images of things in Earth and Heaven".  There are vast debates that rage on the internet about iconography, as well as in ancient history with the iconoclasts.  There are many books written on the "explanation" on why it is okay to venerate icons.  "No it's not wood & paint, it's the representation of the real saint we are venerating and not worshipping".   I get it.  I get it....

Obviously I'm confused.   Look the icon is not Christ.  Period.  It was painted by a man.   When I kiss it I'm not kissing Christ, it's not warm as the "human nature" should be.  Lots and lots of confusion here.  

We have these same internal debates and you are right to have questions, but perhaps your intentions are in the wrong direction.  You are going into your investigation of iconography with a chip on your shoulder against it, and so you are only seeing the flaws.  We in the Church have the same gripes you do with worshipers who misinterpret icons in the Church, with those of us Orthodox who confuse worship and veneration.  We are very specific in this.  Again, Icons are a kind of tool, and instrument for spiritual exercise, but just like physical exercise, you need a personal trainer to properly show you how to use the equipment or the move, or you may actually hurt yourself! It is the same with spiritual exercises, if people just pick up icons with no training, it would be the same as if they just starting bench pressing with no instructor or doing wild lunges and crazy angled sit ups, what would happen, they would hurt themselves or pull something!

 



Quote
Anabapists have very simple and easy to understand explanations of why they do what they do.
Eastern Orthodox have books and centuries of in fighting and debates over things that many don't even find necessary.

This is why I have immense respect even if not faith in Anabaptist belief.  Even my family dresses as the Anabaptists.  Yes people DO point fingers here in Texas.  But my wife is 100% behind it, and knows she did not exploit children overseas and is dressing as a Christian conservative.  She sews all the kids clothes.

Sometimes all one has to do is look on the back of their church clothes tags to realize the irony of their Christianity.

The Anabaptist "fruit" has heavily made me consider them.

You are seeing this fruit through a biased lens, so inherently you see it one-sided.  If you were a bit more experienced in a different direction, perhaps you would see the fruit in different ways.  There are many in Orthodox who sincerely believe in Sacramental worship, and feel that the Anabaptists are dangerous seditionists who lure Christians away from the Sacraments, and that only Sacramental worship can bring salvation, so these Orthodox feel in their hearts that Anabaptists are in fact dangerous to the souls! I do not necessarily ascribe to this kind of thinking, God alone can reveal Himself to anyone.  Orthodox Church is not there to Crusade against heresy or falsehoods, Orthodox Church is there to simply exist and offer folks the opportunity to receive the Sacraments when and where God Himself invites Christians to receive them, in God's own Time and for God's own purpose.  My advice to you is to take yourself out of the study and book reading, and live in the spirit of the matter, if you believe in God, take these questions to Him and not the Canons and Law books of the Church.  God knows best as you said, He will tell it you in His time..

stay blessed,
Habte Selassie


Good reasonings brother HabteSelassie. Give thanks.


Selam


Always one of the best posters.

I concur!
Logged

"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2011, 09:54:03 PM »

If we're going to compare divorce rates with the intent of concluding something about the holiness of the faiths, take a look at India. With an 80% Hindu population, the country has a divorce rate of 1.1% - you wouldn't dare think that this low statistic is a confirmation of the holiness/validity of the Indian religious practices, though.

Hindu's maybe polytheists and pagans but their family values tend to be far superior to the west. Just because they are polytheists doesn't mean they lack morals. When it comes to family they tend to be very moral.
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Tags: debate apologetics 
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.139 seconds with 50 queries.