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Author Topic: Plans to transfer EP to Moscow  (Read 5849 times) Average Rating: 0
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Pravoslavbob
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« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2011, 12:01:14 PM »

With 75% of the Orthodox Christians on the planet under the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia (and via satellite ROCOR), and with Russian Orthodox missionary activity just about everywhere, and with a new big Cathedral and theological seminary being built in the heart of Paris, it is hard to see how the Ecumenical Patriarchate, sitting largely powerless in the Phanar, unable to even send its priests in the street in a cassock, let alone open closed churches, re-open orphanages, monasteries and theological schools in Constantinople (Istanbul) and Turkey matching what the Russian Church is doing.  

Even the opening of Russian churches in Turkey is a response to pastoral need, that probably has not been met by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, especially while it remains obdurate about returning to the Julian Calendar used by probably 85 or 90% of world Orthodoxy. The calendar remains a massive stumbling block to Slavic Christians, and a return to the Julian calendar would be a welcome sign of engagement with world Orthodoxy by the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

There are many and varied opinions regarding calendar usage espoused by members of this forum, and you are welcome to your views.  What is not permitted, however, is for you to attempt to turn every other thread you are involved in into a discussion regarding what is obviously one of your pet issues.  This is not a thread about the "calendar question." Further attempts to derail threads by introducing discussions on the calendar may be met with formal warnings.  I trust that this is clear.  By the way, you are more than welcome to ressurect one of the many dormant calendar threads or to start a new one of your own.

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« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2011, 12:22:58 PM »

Christ is risen!
I don't think the Ecumenical Patriarchate has a presence in Africa (it recognizes the continent as the canonical territory of the Church of Alexandria), but I could be wrong.

Vis-a-vis the calendar I've only found information on the representation in Jo'burg (St. Sergius') and it's Julian calendar - I'd assume the representation in Cairo is old style as well and it'd make sense for the representation being built in Addis to be the same given that the Ethiopian calendar is on the same wavelength as the Julian.

ROCOR Church in Uganda is Julian, or was last I corresponded with them.  I guess there is not as much need to fit in with the world when you are on Bukasa Island.
Fit in with the world or sell out to the world?  You won't find anyone using the Old Calendar with electric organs like in much of the GOA in the US, priests dressed in Latin clerical shirts or indeed engaging with the heterodox except in the context of vigorous missionary work like in Bukasa with collaboration being about shared social issues, not shared worship.

I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.

You will find no disagreement with you on this issue from me, Brother - particularly your last statement.
Unfortunately Moscow strained out the gnat of the Calendar revision and swallowed the camel of the Petrine deforms.  Romania adopted the Revision and her Church went through communism in far better shape than Russia's did. And for most of the existence of Communist Moscow (which did again center Russia on Moscow) her patriarchate was on the Old Calendar.

I'm sorry, but your post makes no sense.  I am totally missing the point that you are trying to make.  You keep trying to bring up Communism, but neither Russia nor Romania is Communist.  It seems that in both countries, the Church triumphed over the atheists.  There is no continent on the face of the Earth where the Russian Orthodox Church does not exist.  It even exists in space.  Can Romania, or any other Orthodox Church say that?  You are having to dig pretty deep to find excuses for your Church's break from worshiping with the Universal Church.  And really, that is all they are - excuses.
The point is that those who boast of what a magic cure all the calendar is refuse to confront the fact that Czar Peter did far, FAR more damage to the Orthodox Church than they accuse Met/Abp/EP/Pope Meletios of doing.  If you want to showcase the triumph of secularism, the world and the heterodox/heretics, look there.

Univesal Church nothing: the various Churches with their various calendars did not begin to synchrnoize throughout the world until Nicea (remember the rebuke of Pope St. Victor?), and even then it did not start to become a reality until the Novella of Justinian and the institution of the indiction, i.e. the secular world and its astronomically based calendar.

Others keep on bringing up Communism, as an excuse to deflect the failure of the Old Calendar to save Orthdooxy, despite their boasting.

Outside of Antarctica, yes, my own race the Arabs are on every continent. And the Greeks, and the Romanians.  The Bulgarians are even on Antarctica.  I don't know how much they are on one continent (South America, although its largest country just elected a Bulgarian Communist President). The space question has already been answered.

The Russia Church is a great Church, but the Old Calendar is NOT one of the pillars of its greatness.
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« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2011, 01:57:06 PM »

"Btw, the EO Church in Ethiopia is on the Revised Calendar..."

Yes, all 4 (or 5?) parishes of the Metropolis of Axum are on the new calendar :-). The rest of the faithful (roughly 37 million people) are on the Ethiopian calendar.
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« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2011, 02:22:03 PM »

"Btw, the EO Church in Ethiopia is on the Revised Calendar..."

Yes, all 4 (or 5?) parishes of the Metropolis of Axum are on the new calendar :-). The rest of the faithful (roughly 37 million people) are on the Ethiopian calendar.

Those 37 million are not EO.
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« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2011, 02:38:07 PM »

Indeed! Orthodox nonetheless though.
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« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2011, 05:23:50 PM »

Pi-'Khristos af-don-f!
"Btw, the EO Church in Ethiopia is on the Revised Calendar..."

Yes, all 4 (or 5?) parishes of the Metropolis of Axum are on the new calendar :-). The rest of the faithful (roughly 37 million people) are on the Ethiopian calendar.
They are also not EO, nor in the EO Patriarchate of Alexandria, and hence not involved with this EP-Moscow spat.
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« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2011, 11:11:02 AM »



I was speaking tongue-in-cheek; of course this would never happen. (Though it would be a nice prerequisite for Turkey joining the EU.)

I stand corrected.

Quote
For the same reason we are obsessed with all kinds of holy places—the holy land, the holy mountain, etc.

Speak for yourself, I'm not obsessed with these places and take St. Gregory of Nyssa's view that all places are equally holy. To suggest one place on earth is more holy than another is more a teaching of Judaism (the temple mount) than Christ. To each their own though.

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Quote
You can celebrate the divine liturgy on an antimins on a rock in the woods, true enough, but I don't understand why we should write off our holy Churches that were overrun by Moslems and now are used for demon worship. They are parasites that need to be removed. Especially churches that are now used for secular purposes.

First, how would you like it if someone of another faith called Christians parasites that "need to be removed". This is disturbing language. (in fact some people do say that, how does that make you feel?) Such language is uncalled for coming from a Christian. You are talking about fellow human beings, people are icons of Christ. Such language is not right.

Secondly, I don't see any demon worship going on in a MUSEUM....

Third, some Protestants would say the exact same thing about YOU for kissing and "worshipping" icons...do unto others as you would have them do unto you; I think this goes for speaking of others as well. Of course I fail at that commandment just like all others do; I think certain positions are idiotic (flat earthers for example) and will say so, however calling someone a parasite and a demon worshiper is pretty derisive language, that in case you haven't realized, will do absolutely NOTHING for your cause except make you feel better about yourself.





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« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2011, 05:18:05 PM »

This sounds an awful lot like Napoleons attempt to move the papacy from Rome to Paris. 
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« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2011, 05:27:23 PM »

This sounds an awful lot like Napoleons attempt to move the papacy from Rome to Paris.  

These are gossips collected by American diplomats who are known to be experts on the Orthodox ecclesiology. The only one awful thing about it is the attention that this thrash is given.
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« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2011, 08:14:51 PM »

/\  His Holiness Patriarch Kirill has 75% of the world's Orthodox under his omophor.  He also has at his disposal resources of a magnitude unknown in the other Local Churches.  

It is natural that this very important Church should feel that it should take the leading role among the Churches.   Many of us do not see why it should not have that role, with due deference and respect for the great value of the historical role of the Church of Constantinople for the last 1000 years.  

I do not see the aspirations of the Russian Orthodox faithful as trash but as legitimate aspirations which will develop slowly, in a spirit of love and unity within the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2011, 12:25:46 AM »

Given how much of the Russian Orthodox Church's resources (in terms of functioning parishes, monasteries, and clergyman) are based out of Ukraine its preeminence may have to be shared sometime in the not too distant future with an independent Ukrainian Orthodox metropolia or patriarchate...
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« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2011, 11:56:01 AM »

I do not see the aspirations of the Russian Orthodox faithful as trash but as legitimate aspirations which will develop slowly, in a spirit of love and unity within the Orthodox Church.

Who are the Russia faithful that want it? Can you give names or some organisations?
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« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2011, 04:45:38 PM »

I do not see the aspirations of the Russian Orthodox faithful as trash but as legitimate aspirations which will develop slowly, in a spirit of love and unity within the Orthodox Church.

Who are the Russia faithful that want it? Can you give names or some organisations?

Certainly those who advocate the Third Rome theory.  Possibly it has a wider base.

If we advert to the OP we see the assertion that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is "seriously concerned" about the possibility that a transfer of power from Constantinople to Moscow is being spoken about by Turkey and Russia.

Of course there may be Russian Orthodox who are against the idea that Moscow is being called to assume leadership in the Orthodox world.
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« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2011, 05:12:16 PM »

If we advert to the OP we see the assertion that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is "seriously concerned" about the possibility that a transfer of power from Constantinople to Moscow is being spoken about by Turkey and Russia.

What proofs does it have?
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« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2011, 05:15:49 PM »

If we advert to the OP we see the assertion that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is "seriously concerned" about the possibility that a transfer of power from Constantinople to Moscow is being spoken about by Turkey and Russia.

What proofs does it have?
Exactly, and I don't even think the article said that Russia has said it (I may be wrong), only that Turkey said it...
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« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2011, 05:23:30 PM »

If we advert to the OP we see the assertion that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is "seriously concerned" about the possibility that a transfer of power from Constantinople to Moscow is being spoken about by Turkey and Russia.

What proofs does it have?

The OP is from Portal-Credo.ru

http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=83673

If I can find an e-mail address I'll send an enquiry.  At the moment their Contact page is malfunctioning.
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« Reply #61 on: April 29, 2011, 05:38:30 PM »

No, I'm asking about the sources of those American intelligence workers.

I don't believe in things just because someone wrote something.
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« Reply #62 on: April 29, 2011, 05:55:48 PM »


No, I'm asking about the sources of those American intelligence workers.

Going by the OP, their sources are "Cablegate" telegrams numbered 06ANKAPA2597 and 08ISTANBUL595.

Are these made available on the Web?
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« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2011, 05:58:15 PM »

I'm not asking whether some ignorant's newsreport about some other ignorants' opppinions is accurate. I'm asking whether the information about the Russian Orthodox POV is reliable.
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« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2011, 05:59:57 PM »

I think he doesn't know - ask Patriarch Cyril or Metropolitan Hilarion. They would be the most sensible people to be putting your question to ;-).
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« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2011, 06:00:34 PM »

The Volokolamskite Hilarion of course. I don't think the ROCOR's Hilarion particularly cares who the ecumenical patriarch is...
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« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2011, 06:07:00 PM »


I don't think the ROCOR's Hilarion particularly cares who the ecumenical patriarch is...


Is that reliable information?  Is there a source?   Smiley
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« Reply #67 on: April 29, 2011, 06:17:12 PM »

Haha :-)! "You know what they say about assumin'" ;-). I'll make sure I include an author, title, and page number next time...
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« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2011, 01:10:25 AM »

I'm not asking whether some ignorant's newsreport about some other ignorants' opppinions is accurate. I'm asking whether the information about the Russian Orthodox POV is reliable.

The perceived desire of the Russian Church to assume the role of Third Rome and leadership in the Orthodox world is taken seriously enough by the Patriarch of Constantinople.  He fired off letters denouncing it to

1.  the Patriarch of Moscow

2. the External Affairs Department of the Russian Church

3.  the Russian Minister of the Exterior

4.  the Metropolitan of Smolensk

5.  the Vice President of the Parliamentary Committee

and others.


"On the other side of this issue, the official representative of the Russian government, Vladimir Zorin, spoke of the need to unite all of the Orthodox nations “…under the banner of the Russian Church, which is the largest, and, as such, holds the leadership position among the Orthodox Churches.”"

"The Vice-President of the Parliamentary Committee declared that the Russian Orthodox Church was “…the only one able to lead a Pan-Orthodox unity of a multinational character. For that reason, the 3rd Orthodox Capital prophesied by Saint Seraphim of Sarof is needed. We must adhere to the historical necessity of founding a ’3rd Rome.’ “

More information at

http://cathedraunitatis.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/constantinople-denounces-third-rome-theory/


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« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2011, 02:07:23 AM »

This wiki leaks stuff has ruined the inner workings of diplomacy? Can nothing just be secret anymore?
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« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2011, 03:24:35 AM »

Goodness what a fuss! Anyone would think that the Oecumenical Patriarchate is the first among equals of the world's Orthodox Bishops or something..... Cheesy
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« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2011, 04:19:36 AM »

Haha! "Behold the power..." ;-)
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« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2011, 07:37:02 AM »

Christ is risen!
I don't think the Ecumenical Patriarchate has a presence in Africa (it recognizes the continent as the canonical territory of the Church of Alexandria), but I could be wrong.

Vis-a-vis the calendar I've only found information on the representation in Jo'burg (St. Sergius') and it's Julian calendar - I'd assume the representation in Cairo is old style as well and it'd make sense for the representation being built in Addis to be the same given that the Ethiopian calendar is on the same wavelength as the Julian.

ROCOR Church in Uganda is Julian, or was last I corresponded with them.  I guess there is not as much need to fit in with the world when you are on Bukasa Island.
Fit in with the world or sell out to the world?  You won't find anyone using the Old Calendar with electric organs like in much of the GOA in the US, priests dressed in Latin clerical shirts or indeed engaging with the heterodox except in the context of vigorous missionary work like in Bukasa with collaboration being about shared social issues, not shared worship.

I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.

You will find no disagreement with you on this issue from me, Brother - particularly your last statement.
Unfortunately Moscow strained out the gnat of the Calendar revision and swallowed the camel of the Petrine deforms.  Romania adopted the Revision and her Church went through communism in far better shape than Russia's did. And for most of the existence of Communist Moscow (which did again center Russia on Moscow) her patriarchate was on the Old Calendar.

I'm sorry, but your post makes no sense.  I am totally missing the point that you are trying to make.  You keep trying to bring up Communism, but neither Russia nor Romania is Communist.  It seems that in both countries, the Church triumphed over the atheists.  There is no continent on the face of the Earth where the Russian Orthodox Church does not exist.  It even exists in space.  Can Romania, or any other Orthodox Church say that?  You are having to dig pretty deep to find excuses for your Church's break from worshiping with the Universal Church.  And really, that is all they are - excuses.
The point is that those who boast of what a magic cure all the calendar is refuse to confront the fact that Czar Peter did far, FAR more damage to the Orthodox Church than they accuse Met/Abp/EP/Pope Meletios of doing.  If you want to showcase the triumph of secularism, the world and the heterodox/heretics, look there.

Univesal Church nothing: the various Churches with their various calendars did not begin to synchrnoize throughout the world until Nicea (remember the rebuke of Pope St. Victor?), and even then it did not start to become a reality until the Novella of Justinian and the institution of the indiction, i.e. the secular world and its astronomically based calendar.

Others keep on bringing up Communism, as an excuse to deflect the failure of the Old Calendar to save Orthdooxy, despite their boasting.

Outside of Antarctica, yes, my own race the Arabs are on every continent. And the Greeks, and the Romanians.  The Bulgarians are even on Antarctica.  I don't know how much they are on one continent (South America, although its largest country just elected a Bulgarian Communist President). The space question has already been answered.

The Russia Church is a great Church, but the Old Calendar is NOT one of the pillars of its greatness.
Given that I have been told not to go on about the Calendar - whether Old or the many versions of the New - aka 'revised'etc that you clearly favor, I won't go on about the Old calendar. 

Peter the Great........ for heaven's sake the Patriarchate has been restored for almost 100 years.  The Synodical government of the Church of Russia is long buried just as the Sergianist era MP issues are largely buried.  What is appropriate is the consideration that 75% of the world's Orthodox Christians are under the omophor of the Russian Orthodox Church, compared with perhaps 5% under Constantinople, which is not even free to practice Orthodoxy in its own heartland of Turkey. 

You say that the Old Calendar didn't save the Russian Church?  I think it did, because the Renovationist schism sought to implement all manner of reforms - married bishops, modernised and shortened liturgies and of course a secular calendar.

I feel for the Ecumenical Patriarch, enduring persecution, stuck in the Phanar as the numbers of Orthodox in Turkey (apart from Russian workers) diminishes annually.  If Turkey is incapable of acknowledging what it has done to the Greek/Turkish Orthodox in Turkey, what hope is there for the Ecumenical Patriarch to do anything but relocate?
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« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2011, 09:00:38 AM »

To think, that Catholics and Orthodox in  Turkey do not hate each other like Moscow would like to be.


Video about Polish Capuchin Franciscans on missionary work in Turkey in Polish. The Capuchins say that they attend Orthodox services and Orthodox priests attend Catholic services. There is no enmity between Catholics and Orthodox there. There is a part where there is a talk with an Orthodox priest, the priest calls the Capuchins brother.
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« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2011, 09:39:31 AM »

Goodness what a fuss! Anyone would think that the Oecumenical Patriarchate is the first among equals of the world's Orthodox Bishops or something..... Cheesy

Well, I wouldn't want to engage in idle speculation, but I suspect that their are many across the spectrum of Russian nationalists and religionists whose interpretation of 'primus inter pares' and a 'primacy of honor' might have more in common with a similar view of the same (but from a 'different' perspective) as some inhabitants of the Italian peninsula have regarding their Church and its role within their faith. While many of us, myself included, admire the Church of Russia for a whole variety of reasons, not all of us Orthodox, myself included, are especially fond of the Russian bear.
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« Reply #75 on: April 30, 2011, 10:26:41 AM »

Goodness what a fuss! Anyone would think that the Oecumenical Patriarchate is the first among equals of the world's Orthodox Bishops or something..... Cheesy

Well, I wouldn't want to engage in idle speculation, but I suspect that their are many across the spectrum of Russian nationalists and religionists whose interpretation of 'primus inter pares' and a 'primacy of honor' might have more in common with a similar view of the same (but from a 'different' perspective) as some inhabitants of the Italian peninsula have regarding their Church and its role within their faith. While many of us, myself included, admire the Church of Russia for a whole variety of reasons, not all of us Orthodox, myself included, are especially fond of the Russian bear.
I am in Constantinople at the moment, and believe me the Patriarchate couldn't be any more modest. Vatican City it ain't! I'm having to worship in catacomb churches here- one is literally an underground basement! The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though. This is probably what the Ancient Church was like before the Edict of Milan!
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« Reply #76 on: April 30, 2011, 10:38:59 AM »

The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
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« Reply #77 on: April 30, 2011, 02:38:22 PM »

The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
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« Reply #78 on: April 30, 2011, 02:45:05 PM »

Goodness what a fuss! Anyone would think that the Oecumenical Patriarchate is the first among equals of the world's Orthodox Bishops or something..... Cheesy

Well, I wouldn't want to engage in idle speculation, but I suspect that their are many across the spectrum of Russian nationalists and religionists whose interpretation of 'primus inter pares' and a 'primacy of honor' might have more in common with a similar view of the same (but from a 'different' perspective) as some inhabitants of the Italian peninsula have regarding their Church and its role within their faith. While many of us, myself included, admire the Church of Russia for a whole variety of reasons, not all of us Orthodox, myself included, are especially fond of the Russian bear.
I am in Constantinople at the moment, and believe me the Patriarchate couldn't be any more modest. Vatican City it ain't! I'm having to worship in catacomb churches here- one is literally an underground basement! The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though. This is probably what the Ancient Church was like before the Edict of Milan!

Wow, I definitely didn't really notice that while I was there, I figured there were very few.
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« Reply #79 on: April 30, 2011, 02:45:26 PM »

The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.
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« Reply #80 on: April 30, 2011, 02:46:57 PM »

The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
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« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2011, 03:12:14 PM »

Mesih diril-di! Hristos diril-di!
The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
No, but it clarifies that not all Turks have to make it to Istanbul. In fact, in many ways it's better they don't (as Antioch is not watched as closely as the Phanar, and can get away with more).
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« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2011, 03:24:46 PM »

Mesih diril-di! Hristos diril-di!
The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
No, but it clarifies that not all Turks have to make it to Istanbul. In fact, in many ways it's better they don't (as Antioch is not watched as closely as the Phanar, and can get away with more).
Why would all Turks have to make it to Istanbul to be Orthodox Christians? There are crypto-Christians all over the country under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
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« Reply #83 on: April 30, 2011, 03:49:05 PM »

Mesih diril-di! Hristos diril-di!
The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
No, but it clarifies that not all Turks have to make it to Istanbul. In fact, in many ways it's better they don't (as Antioch is not watched as closely as the Phanar, and can get away with more).

Which parts of Turkey constitute a canonical territory of the Antiochian Orthodox Church? The Hatay Province of the Mediterranean Region, I guess, but anything else?
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« Reply #84 on: April 30, 2011, 03:55:45 PM »

To think, that Catholics and Orthodox in  Turkey do not hate each other like Moscow would like to be.


Video about Polish Capuchin Franciscans on missionary work in Turkey in Polish. The Capuchins say that they attend Orthodox services and Orthodox priests attend Catholic services. There is no enmity between Catholics and Orthodox there. There is a part where there is a talk with an Orthodox priest, the priest calls the Capuchins brother.
I put the links as image not as links
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPKcvOG6g5Y&feature=player_embedded
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDiJE3I31Xw The priests are in Izmir/Smyrna.
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« Reply #85 on: April 30, 2011, 03:56:20 PM »

Christos Voskrese!
The Russia Church is a great Church, but the Old Calendar is NOT one of the pillars of its greatness.
Given that I have been told not to go on about the Calendar - whether Old or the many versions of the New - aka 'revised'etc that you clearly favor, I won't go on about the Old calendar.
There is one version of the New Calendar. As for continuing, you are free to do that on any number of threads.
Peter the Great........ for heaven's sake the Patriarchate has been restored for almost 100 years.
It was abolished for over 200. And it is restored a century only for us who recognized it before 2007.

The Synodical government of the Church of Russia is long buried just as the Sergianist era MP issues are largely buried.
 
Legacies aren't erased so easily, nor are they so "long buried."

What is appropriate is the consideration that 75% of the world's Orthodox Christians are under the omophor of the Russian Orthodox Church,
What will it be when Ukraine gains its autocephaly?

compared with perhaps 5% under Constantinople, which is not even free to practice Orthodoxy in its own heartland of Turkey.
Moscow wasn't even free to practice Orthodoxy in its own heartland of Russia, and yet it survived.

You say that the Old Calendar didn't save the Russian Church?  I think it did, because the Renovationist schism sought to implement all manner of reforms - married bishops, modernised and shortened liturgies and of course a secular calendar.
I thought you just said you were not going to go on about the Old Calendar.
I won't go on about the Old calendar
I thought so.  Answered here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,34670.new.html#new

I feel for the Ecumenical Patriarch, enduring persecution, stuck in the Phanar as the numbers of Orthodox in Turkey (apart from Russian workers) diminishes annually.
No, there are plenty of resident (but not citizen) Greeks around, along with lots of Gagauz Orthodox and from what I understand Romanians.  Then there are the Arab Orthodox on the other side of the Turkish repbulic, and the growing number of Turkish converts throughout.

If Turkey is incapable of acknowledging what it has done to the Greek/Turkish Orthodox in Turkey, what hope is there for the Ecumenical Patriarch to do anything but relocate?
You leave that to us.  Russia experienced only persecusion for 80 years (if Czarist persecusion of the Church isn't counted), and the Tartar yoke only lasted just over two centuries and a half, and from afar.  Greece resurrected after four centuries of direct occupation, and Alexandria, after nearly two millenium has more EO (and OO) than it had when the caliphs came, and has spread across the entire continent.  Antioch is also doiing fine.  Constantinople can survive.
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« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2011, 03:58:50 PM »

Mesih diril-di! Hristos diril-di!
The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
No, but it clarifies that not all Turks have to make it to Istanbul. In fact, in many ways it's better they don't (as Antioch is not watched as closely as the Phanar, and can get away with more).

Which parts of Turkey constitute a canonical territory of the Antiochian Orthodox Church? The Hatay Province of the Mediterranean Region, I guess, but anything else?
Ciicilia.  The extreme Eastern end of the Republic (i.e. Kurdistan) is somewhat murky.

Btw, Hatay is a Turkish occupied part of Syria.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2011, 04:02:43 PM »

Mesih diril-di! Hristos diril-di!
The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
No, but it clarifies that not all Turks have to make it to Istanbul. In fact, in many ways it's better they don't (as Antioch is not watched as closely as the Phanar, and can get away with more).
Why would all Turks have to make it to Istanbul to be Orthodox Christians? There are crypto-Christians all over the country under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
I'm just repeating what I've been told by Turks who were seeking to convert.  Evidently the Phanar is quite centralized.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #88 on: April 30, 2011, 04:05:22 PM »

Mesih diril-di! Hristos diril-di!
The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
No, but it clarifies that not all Turks have to make it to Istanbul. In fact, in many ways it's better they don't (as Antioch is not watched as closely as the Phanar, and can get away with more).
Why would all Turks have to make it to Istanbul to be Orthodox Christians? There are crypto-Christians all over the country under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
I'm just repeating what I've been told by Turks who were seeking to convert.  Evidently the Phanar is quite centralized.
Have you been to Turkey yourself?
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« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2011, 04:12:25 PM »

Mesih diril-di! Hristos diril-di!
The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
No, but it clarifies that not all Turks have to make it to Istanbul. In fact, in many ways it's better they don't (as Antioch is not watched as closely as the Phanar, and can get away with more).
Why would all Turks have to make it to Istanbul to be Orthodox Christians? There are crypto-Christians all over the country under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
I'm just repeating what I've been told by Turks who were seeking to convert.  Evidently the Phanar is quite centralized.
Have you been to Turkey yourself?
The Turkish Republic? Several times, all over. My cross was blessed on the Phanar's altar Shocked
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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