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Author Topic: Plans to transfer EP to Moscow  (Read 5762 times) Average Rating: 0
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Irish Hermit
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« on: April 21, 2011, 09:53:39 PM »

(Very slightly altered Google translation)
 
http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=83673

In Moscow there are plans to transfer the Ecumenical Patriarchate to Russia, according to diplomatic correspondence, published in WikiLeaks
--------------------------------------------------
Greek Internet resources published an analysis of diplomatic correspondence - mostly by American officials - on the relationship of the Constantinople Patriarchate and the Moscow Patriarchate. The correspondence was made available thanks to the project WikiLeaks. In particular, according to a popular Orthodox blogger, Igor Gaslov, it comes from "Cablegate" telegrams numbered 06ANKAPA2597 and 08ISTANBUL595.

The main conclusion of the analysis - the Ecumenical Patriarchate is seriously concerned about the "imperialist ambitions of Moscow and its possibilities to influence the Turkish government.

In particular, the correspondence mentioned that back in 2006, during a meeting of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis, which discussed the issue of transfer Phanar property on the Princes Islands, the head of the Turkish government mentioned the position of Moscow on this issue.

In 2008, after unsuccessful negotiations between the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow and the appointment of Russian priests to a home church for the Russian diplomatic mission in Turkey, the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew expressed concern about the imperialist and expansionist ambitions of Russia.

According to an observer, in the U.S. and the Ecumenical Patriarchate is seriously considering the possibility of the existence in Moscow of plans to transfer (with the help of the Turkish government), the actual running of the Ecumenical Patriarchate to the Russian capital, thus creating in Moscow a real "Third Rome." The Government of Turkey, for its part, may also be interested in this project, because for many years prevents the normal functioning of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the Turkish state, and generally wants the disappearance of the Ecumenical Patriarchate from Turkish territory.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 09:54:32 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2011, 10:08:46 PM »

I didn't see this coming! Even if it's not based on reality, it's still an interesting idea.
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2011, 10:10:26 PM »

Met. Philip is going to be so let down...
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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2011, 07:58:59 PM »

And this is SO well sourced.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2011, 08:02:09 PM »

Met. Philip is going to be so let down...

I have to admit laughing a bit uncharitably at that, hahah.
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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2011, 08:06:23 PM »

I didn't see this coming! Even if it's not based on reality, it's still an interesting idea.

One of the first things my spiritual father told me fifteen years ago was that Moscow was at the heart of the EPs troubles in Turkey and that it would become even more clear as time went on.
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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2011, 08:06:49 PM »

So the story is that the Greeks think Russia might possibly want to claim the title of EP for themselves?

That makes no sense.
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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2011, 08:11:34 PM »


Why would anyone think Russia might want to claim something that's not theirs? 

If this were in "Politics", I might say a bit more...

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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2011, 08:23:51 PM »

Not trying to be disrespectful but why would Russia want an honorary title?  The Ecumenical/Imperial Patriarch Is the First among Equals and has no authority over any other Church or Patriarch. This title doesn't make the MP any more impressive, large, or powerful than it already is so there is nothing for them to gain. The slavic churches pretty much already look to Moscow while the Greek Churches look to the EP  for assistance and guidance while allowing neither hegemony.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 08:26:00 PM by ICXCNIKA » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2011, 09:19:49 PM »

An interesting thought, but highly improbable :-). It's a pity the Ecumenical Patriarchate wasn't more proactive in caring for all the Orthodox on its canonical territory though - the growth in the number of Russians and Ukrainians in Turkey could well be a great help to the Patriarchate as the number of Greeks dwindles due to Turkey's issues with Greece.
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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2011, 09:45:04 PM »

I'd rather see Moscow roll into Istanbul with tanks and force Turkey to hand over the Hagia Sophia...

Hey, I can dream. It's just as likely as this happening.  angel
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« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2011, 09:58:55 PM »

(Very slightly altered Google translation)
 
http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=83673

In Moscow there are plans to transfer the Ecumenical Patriarchate to Russia, according to diplomatic correspondence, published in WikiLeaks
--------------------------------------------------
Greek Internet resources published an analysis of diplomatic correspondence - mostly by American officials - on the relationship of the Constantinople Patriarchate and the Moscow Patriarchate. The correspondence was made available thanks to the project WikiLeaks. In particular, according to a popular Orthodox blogger, Igor Gaslov, it comes from "Cablegate" telegrams numbered 06ANKAPA2597 and 08ISTANBUL595.

The main conclusion of the analysis - the Ecumenical Patriarchate is seriously concerned about the "imperialist ambitions of Moscow and its possibilities to influence the Turkish government.

In particular, the correspondence mentioned that back in 2006, during a meeting of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis, which discussed the issue of transfer Phanar property on the Princes Islands, the head of the Turkish government mentioned the position of Moscow on this issue.

In 2008, after unsuccessful negotiations between the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow and the appointment of Russian priests to a home church for the Russian diplomatic mission in Turkey, the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew expressed concern about the imperialist and expansionist ambitions of Russia.

According to an observer, in the U.S. and the Ecumenical Patriarchate is seriously considering the possibility of the existence in Moscow of plans to transfer (with the help of the Turkish government), the actual running of the Ecumenical Patriarchate to the Russian capital, thus creating in Moscow a real "Third Rome." The Government of Turkey, for its part, may also be interested in this project, because for many years prevents the normal functioning of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the Turkish state, and generally wants the disappearance of the Ecumenical Patriarchate from Turkish territory.


With 75% of the Orthodox Christians on the planet under the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia (and via satellite ROCOR), and with Russian Orthodox missionary activity just about everywhere, and with a new big Cathedral and theological seminary being built in the heart of Paris, it is hard to see how the Ecumenical Patriarchate, sitting largely powerless in the Phanar, unable to even send its priests in the street in a cassock, let alone open closed churches, re-open orphanages, monasteries and theological schools in Constantinople (Istanbul) and Turkey matching what the Russian Church is doing. 

Even the opening of Russian churches in Turkey is a response to pastoral need, that probably has not been met by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, especially while it remains obdurate about returning to the Julian Calendar used by probably 85 or 90% of world Orthodoxy. The calendar remains a massive stumbling block to Slavic Christians, and a return to the Julian calendar would be a welcome sign of engagement with world Orthodoxy by the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
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« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2011, 10:53:29 PM »

Christos Voskrese!
(Very slightly altered Google translation)
 
http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=83673

In Moscow there are plans to transfer the Ecumenical Patriarchate to Russia, according to diplomatic correspondence, published in WikiLeaks
--------------------------------------------------
Greek Internet resources published an analysis of diplomatic correspondence - mostly by American officials - on the relationship of the Constantinople Patriarchate and the Moscow Patriarchate. The correspondence was made available thanks to the project WikiLeaks. In particular, according to a popular Orthodox blogger, Igor Gaslov, it comes from "Cablegate" telegrams numbered 06ANKAPA2597 and 08ISTANBUL595.

The main conclusion of the analysis - the Ecumenical Patriarchate is seriously concerned about the "imperialist ambitions of Moscow and its possibilities to influence the Turkish government.

In particular, the correspondence mentioned that back in 2006, during a meeting of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis, which discussed the issue of transfer Phanar property on the Princes Islands, the head of the Turkish government mentioned the position of Moscow on this issue.

In 2008, after unsuccessful negotiations between the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow and the appointment of Russian priests to a home church for the Russian diplomatic mission in Turkey, the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew expressed concern about the imperialist and expansionist ambitions of Russia.

According to an observer, in the U.S. and the Ecumenical Patriarchate is seriously considering the possibility of the existence in Moscow of plans to transfer (with the help of the Turkish government), the actual running of the Ecumenical Patriarchate to the Russian capital, thus creating in Moscow a real "Third Rome." The Government of Turkey, for its part, may also be interested in this project, because for many years prevents the normal functioning of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the Turkish state, and generally wants the disappearance of the Ecumenical Patriarchate from Turkish territory.


With 75% of the Orthodox Christians on the planet under the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia (and via satellite ROCOR), and with Russian Orthodox missionary activity just about everywhere, and with a new big Cathedral and theological seminary being built in the heart of Paris, it is hard to see how the Ecumenical Patriarchate, sitting largely powerless in the Phanar, unable to even send its priests in the street in a cassock, let alone open closed churches, re-open orphanages, monasteries and theological schools in Constantinople (Istanbul) and Turkey matching what the Russian Church is doing. 

Even the opening of Russian churches in Turkey is a response to pastoral need, that probably has not been met by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, especially while it remains obdurate about returning to the Julian Calendar used by probably 85 or 90% of world Orthodoxy. The calendar remains a massive stumbling block to Slavic Christians, and a return to the Julian calendar would be a welcome sign of engagement with world Orthodoxy by the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Cramming a lot through that keyhole I see.  The calendar has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.  Or much of any other issue for that matter.

Russia has had the majority of the Orthodox for quite some time-five centuries at least. Yet it is only relatively recently that she has moved slavish imitation of the Greeks, of which the Nikonian "reforms" are only the most absurd example. Though I would like Constantinople to move more beyond chaplancy to mission, I can't deny that it has a presence on all the continents except Antarctica.

Btw, the Bulgarians are Slavic Christians, and they are on the Revised Calendar. I'm curious what the Russians use in Africa.
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« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2011, 11:15:16 PM »

Christos Voskrese!
(Very slightly altered Google translation)
 
http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=83673

In Moscow there are plans to transfer the Ecumenical Patriarchate to Russia, according to diplomatic correspondence, published in WikiLeaks
--------------------------------------------------
Greek Internet resources published an analysis of diplomatic correspondence - mostly by American officials - on the relationship of the Constantinople Patriarchate and the Moscow Patriarchate. The correspondence was made available thanks to the project WikiLeaks. In particular, according to a popular Orthodox blogger, Igor Gaslov, it comes from "Cablegate" telegrams numbered 06ANKAPA2597 and 08ISTANBUL595.

The main conclusion of the analysis - the Ecumenical Patriarchate is seriously concerned about the "imperialist ambitions of Moscow and its possibilities to influence the Turkish government.

In particular, the correspondence mentioned that back in 2006, during a meeting of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis, which discussed the issue of transfer Phanar property on the Princes Islands, the head of the Turkish government mentioned the position of Moscow on this issue.

In 2008, after unsuccessful negotiations between the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow and the appointment of Russian priests to a home church for the Russian diplomatic mission in Turkey, the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew expressed concern about the imperialist and expansionist ambitions of Russia.

According to an observer, in the U.S. and the Ecumenical Patriarchate is seriously considering the possibility of the existence in Moscow of plans to transfer (with the help of the Turkish government), the actual running of the Ecumenical Patriarchate to the Russian capital, thus creating in Moscow a real "Third Rome." The Government of Turkey, for its part, may also be interested in this project, because for many years prevents the normal functioning of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the Turkish state, and generally wants the disappearance of the Ecumenical Patriarchate from Turkish territory.


With 75% of the Orthodox Christians on the planet under the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia (and via satellite ROCOR), and with Russian Orthodox missionary activity just about everywhere, and with a new big Cathedral and theological seminary being built in the heart of Paris, it is hard to see how the Ecumenical Patriarchate, sitting largely powerless in the Phanar, unable to even send its priests in the street in a cassock, let alone open closed churches, re-open orphanages, monasteries and theological schools in Constantinople (Istanbul) and Turkey matching what the Russian Church is doing. 

Even the opening of Russian churches in Turkey is a response to pastoral need, that probably has not been met by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, especially while it remains obdurate about returning to the Julian Calendar used by probably 85 or 90% of world Orthodoxy. The calendar remains a massive stumbling block to Slavic Christians, and a return to the Julian calendar would be a welcome sign of engagement with world Orthodoxy by the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Cramming a lot through that keyhole I see.  The calendar has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.  Or much of any other issue for that matter.

Russia has had the majority of the Orthodox for quite some time-five centuries at least. Yet it is only relatively recently that she has moved slavish imitation of the Greeks, of which the Nikonian "reforms" are only the most absurd example. Though I would like Constantinople to move more beyond chaplancy to mission, I can't deny that it has a presence on all the continents except Antarctica.

Btw, the Bulgarians are Slavic Christians, and they are on the Revised Calendar. I'm curious what the Russians use in Africa.

Yes - a large keyhole........ I do find it curious that New Calendarists always dismiss the calendar question as
Quote
he calendar has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.  Or much of any other issue for that matter.

This makes me wonder why on earth you bothered with the changes if it didn't matter much either way what calendar you use?  However off the calendar and to the matter at hand, I am not sure about the MP calendar in Africa but I suspect it is Julian Calendar like all apart from ahandful of parishes in the US.

I am curious about what is being done by the EP and world Orthodoxy about the appalling plight of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Turkey - from closed churches and monasteries, to the eradication of Hellenic cultural heritage to the fact that priests cannot even dress as priests or nuns as nuns in the street.  All this from a country that aspires to be part of the European Community. 

Surely evangelisation of the Turks, and getting discrimination ended and property returned should be high on the EP agenda?  If it is not, then maybe a relocation to the Third Rome might make more sense, if Constantinople and Turkey have been abandoned to the Muslims.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 11:18:40 PM by SubdeaconDavid » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2011, 11:25:22 PM »

I don't think the Ecumenical Patriarchate has a presence in Africa (it recognizes the continent as the canonical territory of the Church of Alexandria), but I could be wrong.

Vis-a-vis the calendar I've only found information on the representation in Jo'burg (St. Sergius') and it's Julian calendar - I'd assume the representation in Cairo is old style as well and it'd make sense for the representation being built in Addis to be the same given that the Ethiopian calendar is on the same wavelength as the Julian.
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« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2011, 11:36:34 PM »

Christos Voskrese!
Even the opening of Russian churches in Turkey is a response to pastoral need, that probably has not been met by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, especially while it remains obdurate about returning to the Julian Calendar used by probably 85 or 90% of world Orthodoxy. The calendar remains a massive stumbling block to Slavic Christians, and a return to the Julian calendar would be a welcome sign of engagement with world Orthodoxy by the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Cramming a lot through that keyhole I see.  The calendar has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.  Or much of any other issue for that matter.

Russia has had the majority of the Orthodox for quite some time-five centuries at least. Yet it is only relatively recently that she has moved slavish imitation of the Greeks, of which the Nikonian "reforms" are only the most absurd example. Though I would like Constantinople to move more beyond chaplancy to mission, I can't deny that it has a presence on all the continents except Antarctica.

Btw, the Bulgarians are Slavic Christians, and they are on the Revised Calendar. I'm curious what the Russians use in Africa.

Yes - a large keyhole........ I do find it curious that New Calendarists always dismiss the calendar question as
Quote
he calendar has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.  Or much of any other issue for that matter.

This makes me wonder why on earth you bothered with the changes if it didn't matter much either way what calendar you use?
Reality.

However off the calendar and to the matter at hand, I am not sure about the MP calendar in Africa but I suspect it is Julian Calendar like all apart from ahandful of parishes in the US.
The PoM isn't the primate of Africa-the Pope is, and he is on the Revised Julian Calendar.

I am curious about what is being done by the EP and world Orthodoxy about the appalling plight of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Turkey - from closed churches and monasteries, to the eradication of Hellenic cultural heritage to the fact that priests cannot even dress as priests or nuns as nuns in the street.  All this from a country that aspires to be part of the European Community.
I'm more concerned about the appalling abortion rate in Greece, Serbia and Russia and the reversion to neopaganism, both figuratively and literally, that has come in with Greece's EU membership.

Surely evangelisation of the Turks, and getting discrimination ended and property returned should be high on the EP agenda?  If it is not, then maybe a relocation to the Third Rome might make more sense, if Constantinople and Turkey have been abandoned to the Muslims.
It might make better sense to leave it to Antioch, at the other end of the Turkish Republic.
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« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2011, 11:38:39 PM »

Christ is risen!
I don't think the Ecumenical Patriarchate has a presence in Africa (it recognizes the continent as the canonical territory of the Church of Alexandria), but I could be wrong.
Branches of the Greek Church.  Alexandria doesn't depart from the Phanar line outside of Africa.

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« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2011, 11:45:29 PM »

For the time being - as the Church continues to grow outside of the Greek Diaspora in North Africa more non-Cypriot/Greek metropolitans will be consecrated. Either that or the newly Orthodox will pull a Russia and declare their autocephaly :-).
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« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2011, 09:29:25 AM »

I don't think the Ecumenical Patriarchate has a presence in Africa (it recognizes the continent as the canonical territory of the Church of Alexandria), but I could be wrong.

Vis-a-vis the calendar I've only found information on the representation in Jo'burg (St. Sergius') and it's Julian calendar - I'd assume the representation in Cairo is old style as well and it'd make sense for the representation being built in Addis to be the same given that the Ethiopian calendar is on the same wavelength as the Julian.

ROCOR Church in Uganda is Julian, or was last I corresponded with them.  I guess there is not as much need to fit in with the world when you are on Bukasa Island.
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« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2011, 10:12:52 AM »

I don't think the Ecumenical Patriarchate has a presence in Africa (it recognizes the continent as the canonical territory of the Church of Alexandria), but I could be wrong.

Vis-a-vis the calendar I've only found information on the representation in Jo'burg (St. Sergius') and it's Julian calendar - I'd assume the representation in Cairo is old style as well and it'd make sense for the representation being built in Addis to be the same given that the Ethiopian calendar is on the same wavelength as the Julian.

ROCOR Church in Uganda is Julian, or was last I corresponded with them.  I guess there is not as much need to fit in with the world when you are on Bukasa Island.
Fit in with the world or sell out to the world?  You won't find anyone using the Old Calendar with electric organs like in much of the GOA in the US, priests dressed in Latin clerical shirts or indeed engaging with the heterodox except in the context of vigorous missionary work like in Bukasa with collaboration being about shared social issues, not shared worship.

I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.
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« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2011, 10:16:55 AM »

Christos Voskrese!
Even the opening of Russian churches in Turkey is a response to pastoral need, that probably has not been met by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, especially while it remains obdurate about returning to the Julian Calendar used by probably 85 or 90% of world Orthodoxy. The calendar remains a massive stumbling block to Slavic Christians, and a return to the Julian calendar would be a welcome sign of engagement with world Orthodoxy by the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Cramming a lot through that keyhole I see.  The calendar has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.  Or much of any other issue for that matter.

Russia has had the majority of the Orthodox for quite some time-five centuries at least. Yet it is only relatively recently that she has moved slavish imitation of the Greeks, of which the Nikonian "reforms" are only the most absurd example. Though I would like Constantinople to move more beyond chaplancy to mission, I can't deny that it has a presence on all the continents except Antarctica.

Btw, the Bulgarians are Slavic Christians, and they are on the Revised Calendar. I'm curious what the Russians use in Africa.

Yes - a large keyhole........ I do find it curious that New Calendarists always dismiss the calendar question as
Quote
he calendar has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.  Or much of any other issue for that matter.

This makes me wonder why on earth you bothered with the changes if it didn't matter much either way what calendar you use?
Reality.

However off the calendar and to the matter at hand, I am not sure about the MP calendar in Africa but I suspect it is Julian Calendar like all apart from ahandful of parishes in the US.
The PoM isn't the primate of Africa-the Pope is, and he is on the Revised Julian Calendar.

I am curious about what is being done by the EP and world Orthodoxy about the appalling plight of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Turkey - from closed churches and monasteries, to the eradication of Hellenic cultural heritage to the fact that priests cannot even dress as priests or nuns as nuns in the street.  All this from a country that aspires to be part of the European Community.
I'm more concerned about the appalling abortion rate in Greece, Serbia and Russia and the reversion to neopaganism, both figuratively and literally, that has come in with Greece's EU membership.

Surely evangelisation of the Turks, and getting discrimination ended and property returned should be high on the EP agenda?  If it is not, then maybe a relocation to the Third Rome might make more sense, if Constantinople and Turkey have been abandoned to the Muslims.
It might make better sense to leave it to Antioch, at the other end of the Turkish Republic.
Except it remains in the Turkish Republic and the suppression of the anti-Orthodox islamists now on the up and up in Turkey. In regard to abortion in Slavic Orthodox countries that is a legacy of communism and one that is being vigorously addressed by the Orthodox Churches in those countries. We have less excuse in our country - far less poverty, no-brainwashing by Bolsheviks for 70 years and our churches weren't closed, violated and our clergy murdered en masse as in the USSR.

What neo-paganism are you referring to?  Secularism........ of course thats all tied to....the calendar.
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« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2011, 10:26:48 AM »

I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.

Such as increased precision?
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« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2011, 10:32:45 AM »

An interesting thought, but highly improbable :-). It's a pity the Ecumenical Patriarchate wasn't more proactive in caring for all the Orthodox on its canonical territory though - the growth in the number of Russians and Ukrainians in Turkey could well be a great help to the Patriarchate as the number of Greeks dwindles due to Turkey's issues with Greece.

Good point to bring up for discussion.  I have read about the number of workers from the former Soviet Union countries working in Turkey, legal or illegal I don't know.  Wasn't there an article in the past year about an ethnic Greek priest under the EP assigned to a new church in a resort area with lots of Russians?  The priests was fluent in Russian and was to celebrate in Church Slavonic.
With all the problems the EP has in Turkey just trying to survive, I don't think we can accuse the EP of not being pro-active or not being concerned about pastoral issues.  The Turks won't let them be pro-active.
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« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2011, 10:39:30 AM »

Christ is risen!
I don't think the Ecumenical Patriarchate has a presence in Africa (it recognizes the continent as the canonical territory of the Church of Alexandria), but I could be wrong.

Vis-a-vis the calendar I've only found information on the representation in Jo'burg (St. Sergius') and it's Julian calendar - I'd assume the representation in Cairo is old style as well and it'd make sense for the representation being built in Addis to be the same given that the Ethiopian calendar is on the same wavelength as the Julian.

ROCOR Church in Uganda is Julian, or was last I corresponded with them.  I guess there is not as much need to fit in with the world when you are on Bukasa Island.
Fit in with the world or sell out to the world?  You won't find anyone using the Old Calendar with electric organs like in much of the GOA in the US, priests dressed in Latin clerical shirts or indeed engaging with the heterodox except in the context of vigorous missionary work like in Bukasa with collaboration being about shared social issues, not shared worship.

I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.
If using a calendar which doesn't correspond to reality were such a bulwark against heresy, I wonder why the Fathers never thought of it.  They just had the astronomers fix the calendar and determine what day was equal night and day, and proceeded from there.

Strange how the Old Calendar didn't prevent Peter from recreating the Patriarchate of Moscow to fit into Lutheran ecclesiology.  The Holy Governing Synod was a never needed reform and the patriarchate was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment. A far greater monstrosity than the electric organ, a sell out to the world of absolutism, as the Erastian oath of cleric outdid any Latin shirt.

Any of these examples post 2007?  Before that, it didn't matter what ROCOR did, as no one on the African continent was in communion with them.  Btw, the EO Church in Ethiopia is on the Revised Calendar, as is the EO Church in Egypt.  Metochia of Moscow I would expect are on the Old Calendar.
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« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2011, 10:40:44 AM »

Christ is risen!
I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.

Such as increased precision?
No, the Orthodox at Nicea I valued that.
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« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2011, 10:41:45 AM »

I'd rather see Moscow roll into Istanbul with tanks and force Turkey to hand over the Hagia Sophia...

Hey, I can dream. It's just as likely as this happening.  angel

You mean you'd rather see an all out war in the middle east over a building, than a peaceful exchange of "power" in the Orthodox Church? Not that I'm ANY fan of the Russian Patriarchate, but I don't get this obsession with Hagia Sophia....we worship God in spirit and in truth, and no place on earth is anymore "holy" than anywhere else. isn't that the lesson of the story of Christ and the woman at the well?

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« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2011, 10:44:20 AM »


I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.

this seems an odd comment to make considering why the date of Christmas was originally chosen by the Church fathers in the first place. (i.e. to co-opt and counteract a popular Pagan festival)

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« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2011, 10:49:52 AM »

Christ is risen!
Christos Voskrese!
Even the opening of Russian churches in Turkey is a response to pastoral need, that probably has not been met by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, especially while it remains obdurate about returning to the Julian Calendar used by probably 85 or 90% of world Orthodoxy. The calendar remains a massive stumbling block to Slavic Christians, and a return to the Julian calendar would be a welcome sign of engagement with world Orthodoxy by the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Cramming a lot through that keyhole I see.  The calendar has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.  Or much of any other issue for that matter.

Russia has had the majority of the Orthodox for quite some time-five centuries at least. Yet it is only relatively recently that she has moved slavish imitation of the Greeks, of which the Nikonian "reforms" are only the most absurd example. Though I would like Constantinople to move more beyond chaplancy to mission, I can't deny that it has a presence on all the continents except Antarctica.

Btw, the Bulgarians are Slavic Christians, and they are on the Revised Calendar. I'm curious what the Russians use in Africa.

Yes - a large keyhole........ I do find it curious that New Calendarists always dismiss the calendar question as
Quote
he calendar has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.  Or much of any other issue for that matter.

This makes me wonder why on earth you bothered with the changes if it didn't matter much either way what calendar you use?
Reality.

However off the calendar and to the matter at hand, I am not sure about the MP calendar in Africa but I suspect it is Julian Calendar like all apart from ahandful of parishes in the US.
The PoM isn't the primate of Africa-the Pope is, and he is on the Revised Julian Calendar.

I am curious about what is being done by the EP and world Orthodoxy about the appalling plight of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Turkey - from closed churches and monasteries, to the eradication of Hellenic cultural heritage to the fact that priests cannot even dress as priests or nuns as nuns in the street.  All this from a country that aspires to be part of the European Community.
I'm more concerned about the appalling abortion rate in Greece, Serbia and Russia and the reversion to neopaganism, both figuratively and literally, that has come in with Greece's EU membership.

Surely evangelisation of the Turks, and getting discrimination ended and property returned should be high on the EP agenda?  If it is not, then maybe a relocation to the Third Rome might make more sense, if Constantinople and Turkey have been abandoned to the Muslims.
It might make better sense to leave it to Antioch, at the other end of the Turkish Republic.
Except it remains in the Turkish Republic and the suppression of the anti-Orthodox islamists now on the up and up in Turkey. In regard to abortion in Slavic Orthodox countries that is a legacy of communism and one that is being vigorously addressed by the Orthodox Churches in those countries. We have less excuse in our country - far less poverty, no-brainwashing by Bolsheviks for 70 years and our churches weren't closed, violated and our clergy murdered en masse as in the USSR.

What neo-paganism are you referring to?  Secularism........ of course thats all tied to....the calendar.
LOL. Yeah, right.  

In Egypt we are on the New Calendar, and yet we find no urge to kill our children, cheat on our spouses, revive the worship of Osiris or Serapion or any of the other nonsense.

Greece had no communist government, and Romania's communist government banned abortion and birth control, and vigorously enforced it.

Holy Mother Russia's Old Calendar didn't save it from the Bolsheviks, which is why their Oktober Revolution really took place in November. Greece switched to the Revised Calendar, and proved a bulwark against communism.
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« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2011, 10:50:01 AM »

I don't think the Ecumenical Patriarchate has a presence in Africa (it recognizes the continent as the canonical territory of the Church of Alexandria), but I could be wrong.

Vis-a-vis the calendar I've only found information on the representation in Jo'burg (St. Sergius') and it's Julian calendar - I'd assume the representation in Cairo is old style as well and it'd make sense for the representation being built in Addis to be the same given that the Ethiopian calendar is on the same wavelength as the Julian.

ROCOR Church in Uganda is Julian, or was last I corresponded with them.  I guess there is not as much need to fit in with the world when you are on Bukasa Island.
Fit in with the world or sell out to the world?  You won't find anyone using the Old Calendar with electric organs like in much of the GOA in the US, priests dressed in Latin clerical shirts or indeed engaging with the heterodox except in the context of vigorous missionary work like in Bukasa with collaboration being about shared social issues, not shared worship.

I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.
If using a calendar which doesn't correspond to reality were such a bulwark against heresy, I wonder why the Fathers never thought of it.  They just had the astronomers fix the calendar and determine what day was equal night and day, and proceeded from there.

Strange how the Old Calendar didn't prevent Peter from recreating the Patriarchate of Moscow to fit into Lutheran ecclesiology.  The Holy Governing Synod was a never needed reform and the patriarchate was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment. A far greater monstrosity than the electric organ, a sell out to the world of absolutism, as the Erastian oath of cleric outdid any Latin shirt.

Any of these examples post 2007?  Before that, it didn't matter what ROCOR did, as no one on the African continent was in communion with them.  Btw, the EO Church in Ethiopia is on the Revised Calendar, as is the EO Church in Egypt.  Metochia of Moscow I would expect are on the Old Calendar.

QFT!!
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« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2011, 10:50:53 AM »

However off the calendar and to the matter at hand, I am not sure about the MP calendar in Africa but I suspect it is Julian Calendar like all apart from ahandful of parishes in the US.

You mean the Patriarchal Parishes administered by Archbishop Justinian of Naro-Fominsk? Are they all on the Revised Julian or only some of them?
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« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2011, 10:56:00 AM »

I don't think the Ecumenical Patriarchate has a presence in Africa (it recognizes the continent as the canonical territory of the Church of Alexandria), but I could be wrong.

Vis-a-vis the calendar I've only found information on the representation in Jo'burg (St. Sergius') and it's Julian calendar - I'd assume the representation in Cairo is old style as well and it'd make sense for the representation being built in Addis to be the same given that the Ethiopian calendar is on the same wavelength as the Julian.

ROCOR Church in Uganda is Julian, or was last I corresponded with them.  I guess there is not as much need to fit in with the world when you are on Bukasa Island.
Fit in with the world or sell out to the world?  You won't find anyone using the Old Calendar with electric organs like in much of the GOA in the US, priests dressed in Latin clerical shirts or indeed engaging with the heterodox except in the context of vigorous missionary work like in Bukasa with collaboration being about shared social issues, not shared worship.

I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.

You will find no disagreement with you on this issue from me, Brother - particularly your last statement.
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« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2011, 11:07:20 AM »

Christ is risen!
I don't think the Ecumenical Patriarchate has a presence in Africa (it recognizes the continent as the canonical territory of the Church of Alexandria), but I could be wrong.

Vis-a-vis the calendar I've only found information on the representation in Jo'burg (St. Sergius') and it's Julian calendar - I'd assume the representation in Cairo is old style as well and it'd make sense for the representation being built in Addis to be the same given that the Ethiopian calendar is on the same wavelength as the Julian.

ROCOR Church in Uganda is Julian, or was last I corresponded with them.  I guess there is not as much need to fit in with the world when you are on Bukasa Island.
Fit in with the world or sell out to the world?  You won't find anyone using the Old Calendar with electric organs like in much of the GOA in the US, priests dressed in Latin clerical shirts or indeed engaging with the heterodox except in the context of vigorous missionary work like in Bukasa with collaboration being about shared social issues, not shared worship.

I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.

You will find no disagreement with you on this issue from me, Brother - particularly your last statement.
Unfortunately Moscow strained out the gnat of the Calendar revision and swallowed the camel of the Petrine deforms.  Romania adopted the Revision and her Church went through communism in far better shape than Russia's did. And for most of the existence of Communist Moscow (which did again center Russia on Moscow) her patriarchate was on the Old Calendar.
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« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2011, 11:13:16 AM »

I'd rather see Moscow roll into Istanbul with tanks and force Turkey to hand over the Hagia Sophia...

Hey, I can dream. It's just as likely as this happening.  angel

You mean you'd rather see an all out war in the middle east over a building, than a peaceful exchange of "power" in the Orthodox Church? Not that I'm ANY fan of the Russian Patriarchate, but I don't get this obsession with Hagia Sophia....we worship God in spirit and in truth, and no place on earth is anymore "holy" than anywhere else. isn't that the lesson of the story of Christ and the woman at the well?



I was speaking tongue-in-cheek; of course this would never happen. (Though it would be a nice prerequisite for Turkey joining the EU.)

For the same reason we are obsessed with all kinds of holy places—the holy land, the holy mountain, etc. Our Temples are indeed holy places, because they are icons of the Kingdom, and because they were built specifically for the worship of God. And this particular one, the grandest of all (along with dozens of other churches in Constantinople) has been desecrated for centuries. Now it's just a museum. There's no reason why it shouldn't be returned to the Church.

You can celebrate the divine liturgy on an antimins on a rock in the woods, true enough, but I don't understand why we should write off our holy Churches that were overrun by Moslems and now are used for demon worship. They are parasites that need to be removed. Especially churches that are now used for secular purposes.
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« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2011, 11:21:28 AM »

I'd rather see Moscow roll into Istanbul with tanks and force Turkey to hand over the Hagia Sophia...

Hey, I can dream. It's just as likely as this happening.  angel

You mean you'd rather see an all out war in the middle east over a building, than a peaceful exchange of "power" in the Orthodox Church? Not that I'm ANY fan of the Russian Patriarchate, but I don't get this obsession with Hagia Sophia....we worship God in spirit and in truth, and no place on earth is anymore "holy" than anywhere else. isn't that the lesson of the story of Christ and the woman at the well?



I was speaking tongue-in-cheek; of course this would never happen. (Though it would be a nice prerequisite for Turkey joining the EU.)

For the same reason we are obsessed with all kinds of holy places—the holy land, the holy mountain, etc. Our Temples are indeed holy places, because they are icons of the Kingdom, and because they were built specifically for the worship of God. And this particular one, the grandest of all (along with dozens of other churches in Constantinople) has been desecrated for centuries. Now it's just a museum. There's no reason why it shouldn't be returned to the Church.

You can celebrate the divine liturgy on an antimins on a rock in the woods, true enough, but I don't understand why we should write off our holy Churches that were overrun by Moslems and now are used for demon worship. They are parasites that need to be removed. Especially churches that are now used for secular purposes.
If Turkey is ready to be part of Europe let it return to the EP Hagia Sophia.  After all as a so-called secular state, Turkey stands to benefit from the prestige of it being the seat of the Ecumenical Patriarch, rather than a mosque museum.  IUf in former Communist countries churches that were used for secular (godless) purposes have been returned, let the Turks do the same.  I assume that the current Phanar cathedral is actually a pro-cathedral, because I would also assume that the EP has never countenanced the illicit theft of Hagia Sophia by the Turks. 
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« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2011, 11:28:15 AM »

I don't think the Ecumenical Patriarchate has a presence in Africa (it recognizes the continent as the canonical territory of the Church of Alexandria), but I could be wrong.

Vis-a-vis the calendar I've only found information on the representation in Jo'burg (St. Sergius') and it's Julian calendar - I'd assume the representation in Cairo is old style as well and it'd make sense for the representation being built in Addis to be the same given that the Ethiopian calendar is on the same wavelength as the Julian.

ROCOR Church in Uganda is Julian, or was last I corresponded with them.  I guess there is not as much need to fit in with the world when you are on Bukasa Island.
Fit in with the world or sell out to the world?  You won't find anyone using the Old Calendar with electric organs like in much of the GOA in the US, priests dressed in Latin clerical shirts or indeed engaging with the heterodox except in the context of vigorous missionary work like in Bukasa with collaboration being about shared social issues, not shared worship.

I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.
If using a calendar which doesn't correspond to reality were such a bulwark against heresy, I wonder why the Fathers never thought of it.  They just had the astronomers fix the calendar and determine what day was equal night and day, and proceeded from there.

Strange how the Old Calendar didn't prevent Peter from recreating the Patriarchate of Moscow to fit into Lutheran ecclesiology.  The Holy Governing Synod was a never needed reform and the patriarchate was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment. A far greater monstrosity than the electric organ, a sell out to the world of absolutism, as the Erastian oath of cleric outdid any Latin shirt.

Any of these examples post 2007?  Before that, it didn't matter what ROCOR did, as no one on the African continent was in communion with them.  Btw, the EO Church in Ethiopia is on the Revised Calendar, as is the EO Church in Egypt.  Metochia of Moscow I would expect are on the Old Calendar.

QFT!!
ROCOR was always in communion with the Serbian Church and her orders and sacraments recognised by the Mother Church in Russia which is why the reunion in 2007 went so well.  It was impossible for ROCOR to have canonical subjugation to the MP in the years of Communist control of the Patriarchate, a situation that was reversed by wise leaders leading up to 2007, and perhaps reflecting why the united Russian Church is going from strength to strength, with 75% of the worlds Orthodox under the omophor of HH Patriarch Kirill. St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco said very clearly that what ROCOR did mattered greatly to God because it was God's will that the missionary ROCOr be scattered throughout the world to plant Orthodoxy and to make converts.  ROCOR is an important element in the missionary endeavours of the united Russian Orthodox Church today.
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« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2011, 11:28:30 AM »

Christ is risen!
I'd rather see Moscow roll into Istanbul with tanks and force Turkey to hand over the Hagia Sophia...

Hey, I can dream. It's just as likely as this happening.  angel

You mean you'd rather see an all out war in the middle east over a building, than a peaceful exchange of "power" in the Orthodox Church? Not that I'm ANY fan of the Russian Patriarchate, but I don't get this obsession with Hagia Sophia....we worship God in spirit and in truth, and no place on earth is anymore "holy" than anywhere else. isn't that the lesson of the story of Christ and the woman at the well?



I was speaking tongue-in-cheek; of course this would never happen. (Though it would be a nice prerequisite for Turkey joining the EU.)

For the same reason we are obsessed with all kinds of holy places—the holy land, the holy mountain, etc. Our Temples are indeed holy places, because they are icons of the Kingdom, and because they were built specifically for the worship of God. And this particular one, the grandest of all (along with dozens of other churches in Constantinople) has been desecrated for centuries. Now it's just a museum. There's no reason why it shouldn't be returned to the Church.

You can celebrate the divine liturgy on an antimins on a rock in the woods, true enough, but I don't understand why we should write off our holy Churches that were overrun by Moslems and now are used for demon worship. They are parasites that need to be removed. Especially churches that are now used for secular purposes.
If Turkey is ready to be part of Europe let it return to the EP Hagia Sophia.  After all as a so-called secular state, Turkey stands to benefit from the prestige of it being the seat of the Ecumenical Patriarch, rather than a mosque museum.  IUf in former Communist countries churches that were used for secular (godless) purposes have been returned, let the Turks do the same.  I assume that the current Phanar cathedral is actually a pro-cathedral, because I would also assume that the EP has never countenanced the illicit theft of Hagia Sophia by the Turks.  
Does duress count? And I'm not sure conquest=theft, that's quite a can of worms.  Then there is the problem that at the time of the Turk took over Hagia Sophia, the emperor was in communion with the Vatican, as was the (exiled) Ecumenical Patriarch he recognized.

No, St. George's isn't a pro-cathedral. Unfortunately.

Btw, there are already those in the following of the Vatican who "want Hagia Sophia back'. I wonder what the European Court of Justice would find.
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« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2011, 11:34:38 AM »

Christ is risen!
I don't think the Ecumenical Patriarchate has a presence in Africa (it recognizes the continent as the canonical territory of the Church of Alexandria), but I could be wrong.

Vis-a-vis the calendar I've only found information on the representation in Jo'burg (St. Sergius') and it's Julian calendar - I'd assume the representation in Cairo is old style as well and it'd make sense for the representation being built in Addis to be the same given that the Ethiopian calendar is on the same wavelength as the Julian.

ROCOR Church in Uganda is Julian, or was last I corresponded with them.  I guess there is not as much need to fit in with the world when you are on Bukasa Island.
Fit in with the world or sell out to the world?  You won't find anyone using the Old Calendar with electric organs like in much of the GOA in the US, priests dressed in Latin clerical shirts or indeed engaging with the heterodox except in the context of vigorous missionary work like in Bukasa with collaboration being about shared social issues, not shared worship.

I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.
If using a calendar which doesn't correspond to reality were such a bulwark against heresy, I wonder why the Fathers never thought of it.  They just had the astronomers fix the calendar and determine what day was equal night and day, and proceeded from there.

Strange how the Old Calendar didn't prevent Peter from recreating the Patriarchate of Moscow to fit into Lutheran ecclesiology.  The Holy Governing Synod was a never needed reform and the patriarchate was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment. A far greater monstrosity than the electric organ, a sell out to the world of absolutism, as the Erastian oath of cleric outdid any Latin shirt.

Any of these examples post 2007?  Before that, it didn't matter what ROCOR did, as no one on the African continent was in communion with them.  Btw, the EO Church in Ethiopia is on the Revised Calendar, as is the EO Church in Egypt.  Metochia of Moscow I would expect are on the Old Calendar.

QFT!!
ROCOR was always in communion with the Serbian Church and her orders and sacraments recognised by the Mother Church in Russia which is why the reunion in 2007 went so well.

Serbia isn't in Africa.
It was impossible for ROCOR to have canonical subjugation to the MP in the years of Communist control of the Patriarchate,

You mean like Serbia was?
a situation that was reversed by wise leaders leading up to 2007, and perhaps reflecting why the united Russian Church is going from strength to strength, with 75% of the worlds Orthodox under the omophor of HH Patriarch Kirill.
What was the percentage under Communist Moscow?
St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco said very clearly that what ROCOR did mattered greatly to God because it was God's will that the missionary ROCOr be scattered throughout the world to plant Orthodoxy and to make converts.

Moscow had planted Orthodoxy throughout the world, including North America, long before 1922.  Though St. John and ROCOR have done valuable work in the same.
ROCOR is an important element in the missionary endeavours of the united Russian Orthodox Church today.
True. And?
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« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2011, 11:37:18 AM »

Strange how the Old Calendar didn't prevent Peter from recreating the Patriarchate of Moscow to fit into Lutheran ecclesiology.  The Holy Governing Synod was a never needed reform and the patriarchate was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.

Or how it didn't prevent a repressive clerical caste system, massive corruption, and widespread indifference to the Church amongst the populace. One wonders if anyone has read the assessments of Russian ecclesiastical culture in the 19th century by Metropolitan Benjamin Fedchenkov, Fr. Georges Florovsky, Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, and even Alexander Solzhenitsyn, or just someone's blog post on Holy Russia.

No need to dig in the past though. Just go to Russia and see how many of those  stalwart 175 million have succumbed to the "values of the Enlightenment" or worse. Of course, there is impressive ecclesiastical infrastructure for those who do get involved. After all, the Patriarch of Moscow has the equivalent of about US$4,000,000,000 (four billion) in his personal bank accounts from selling cigarettes to the very Russian nation he pastors. Makes it easy to build new seminaries (or mansions).
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« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2011, 11:37:50 AM »

I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.

They have "secular pagan Christmass" in January.
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« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2011, 11:42:30 AM »

Christ is risen!
I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.

They have "secular pagan Christmass" in January.

Quote
History of the Russian New Year tree
The tradition to install and decorate a Ёлка (pr: Yolka, tr: spruce tree) dates back to the 17th century when Peter the Great imported the tradition from his travels of Europe. However, in the Imperial Russia Yolka were banned since 1916 by Synod as a tradition, originated in Germany (Russian counterpart during World War I). This ban was prolonged in the Russian SFSR and the Soviet Union until 1935 (New Year tree was seen as a "bourgeois and religious prejudice" until that year).[1] The New Year celebration was not banned, though there was no official holiday for it until 1935. The New Year's tree revived in the USSR after the famous letter by Pavel Postyshev, published in Pravda on December 28, 1935, where he asked for installing New Year trees in schools, children's homes, Young Pioneer Palaces, children's clubs, children's theaters and cinema theaters.[2] In 1937, a New Year Tree was also installed in the Moscow Palace of Unions. An invitation to the Yolka at the Palace of Unions became a matter of honour for Soviet children
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yolka
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« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2011, 11:45:29 AM »

Christos anesti!
Strange how the Old Calendar didn't prevent Peter from recreating the Patriarchate of Moscow to fit into Lutheran ecclesiology.  The Holy Governing Synod was a never needed reform and the patriarchate was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.

Or how it didn't prevent a repressive clerical caste system, massive corruption, and widespread indifference to the Church amongst the populace. One wonders if anyone has read the assessments of Russian ecclesiastical culture in the 19th century by Metropolitan Benjamin Fedchenkov, Fr. Georges Florovsky, Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, and even Alexander Solzhenitsyn, or just someone's blog post on Holy Russia.

No need to dig in the past though. Just go to Russia and see how many of those  stalwart 175 million have succumbed to the "values of the Enlightenment" or worse. Of course, there is impressive ecclesiastical infrastructure for those who do get involved. After all, the Patriarch of Moscow has the equivalent of about US$4,000,000,000 (four billion) in his personal bank accounts from selling cigarettes to the very Russian nation he pastors. Makes it easy to build new seminaries (or mansions).
Well, hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue, and at least the Russians are paying it.
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« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2011, 11:46:30 AM »

Christ is risen!
I don't think the Ecumenical Patriarchate has a presence in Africa (it recognizes the continent as the canonical territory of the Church of Alexandria), but I could be wrong.

Vis-a-vis the calendar I've only found information on the representation in Jo'burg (St. Sergius') and it's Julian calendar - I'd assume the representation in Cairo is old style as well and it'd make sense for the representation being built in Addis to be the same given that the Ethiopian calendar is on the same wavelength as the Julian.

ROCOR Church in Uganda is Julian, or was last I corresponded with them.  I guess there is not as much need to fit in with the world when you are on Bukasa Island.
Fit in with the world or sell out to the world?  You won't find anyone using the Old Calendar with electric organs like in much of the GOA in the US, priests dressed in Latin clerical shirts or indeed engaging with the heterodox except in the context of vigorous missionary work like in Bukasa with collaboration being about shared social issues, not shared worship.

I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.

You will find no disagreement with you on this issue from me, Brother - particularly your last statement.
Unfortunately Moscow strained out the gnat of the Calendar revision and swallowed the camel of the Petrine deforms.  Romania adopted the Revision and her Church went through communism in far better shape than Russia's did. And for most of the existence of Communist Moscow (which did again center Russia on Moscow) her patriarchate was on the Old Calendar.

I'm sorry, but your post makes no sense.  I am totally missing the point that you are trying to make.  You keep trying to bring up Communism, but neither Russia nor Romania is Communist.  It seems that in both countries, the Church triumphed over the atheists.  There is no continent on the face of the Earth where the Russian Orthodox Church does not exist.  It even exists in space.  Can Romania, or any other Orthodox Church say that?  You are having to dig pretty deep to find excuses for your Church's break from worshiping with the Universal Church.  And really, that is all they are - excuses.
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« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2011, 11:51:41 AM »

There is no continent on the face of the Earth where the Russian Orthodox Church does not exist.  It even exists in space.

Huh
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« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2011, 11:56:13 AM »

I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.

They have "secular pagan Christmass" in January.

I agree with Michal, the 'we are better than the secularists' is an arrogant and un-Christian response to the calendar issue.  The 25th of December is a day of peace and quiet as our daily life comes to a halt in America. Driving to Liturgy on the 7th through traffic, school buses and garbage trucks is a whole nother matter.

I remember a parish meeting which debated the question at length. There was a pious woman who went on and on about the secular Christmas and distancing us 'pure' Orthodox from it and so on.

There was applause and then one of the elders from the old country, who was a staunch old calendarist about 80 years old, stood up to speak. The hall quieted thinking that he would surely second the opinion of the previous speaker.

With tears in his eyes he asked how you could say that. His son and family were devout members of an OCA parish down south and he had just returned from spending the 25th with them that year. Such words insult them he said. And what of our Slovak, Polish, Ukrainian and Greek Catholic neighbors who observed the Velija (Holy night supper) with their families he asked? What of their families and their kolady (carols) which we share? Are they polluted by secularism he asked. To say such nonsense is to mimic the Pharisee he said.

There was silence in the hall.

He went on, " I support the old ways because they are the old ways upon which I was raised. Whether they are better than the new ways I do not know...but this I do know...it is not for us to mock or belittle the faith of others. Support the old ways because your heart tells you it is right and do not worry about how your neighbor worships and honors the Christ-child."

Slowly applause broke out. A vote was taken and the old calendar was kept.
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« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2011, 11:57:39 AM »

There is no continent on the face of the Earth where the Russian Orthodox Church does not exist.  It even exists in space.

Huh

I am not Russian and the Icon of St. Michael honoring our Centennial was aboard a shuttle space station mission due to the efforts of a parishioner who worked for NASA.
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« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2011, 12:01:14 PM »

With 75% of the Orthodox Christians on the planet under the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia (and via satellite ROCOR), and with Russian Orthodox missionary activity just about everywhere, and with a new big Cathedral and theological seminary being built in the heart of Paris, it is hard to see how the Ecumenical Patriarchate, sitting largely powerless in the Phanar, unable to even send its priests in the street in a cassock, let alone open closed churches, re-open orphanages, monasteries and theological schools in Constantinople (Istanbul) and Turkey matching what the Russian Church is doing.  

Even the opening of Russian churches in Turkey is a response to pastoral need, that probably has not been met by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, especially while it remains obdurate about returning to the Julian Calendar used by probably 85 or 90% of world Orthodoxy. The calendar remains a massive stumbling block to Slavic Christians, and a return to the Julian calendar would be a welcome sign of engagement with world Orthodoxy by the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

There are many and varied opinions regarding calendar usage espoused by members of this forum, and you are welcome to your views.  What is not permitted, however, is for you to attempt to turn every other thread you are involved in into a discussion regarding what is obviously one of your pet issues.  This is not a thread about the "calendar question." Further attempts to derail threads by introducing discussions on the calendar may be met with formal warnings.  I trust that this is clear.  By the way, you are more than welcome to ressurect one of the many dormant calendar threads or to start a new one of your own.

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« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2011, 12:22:58 PM »

Christ is risen!
I don't think the Ecumenical Patriarchate has a presence in Africa (it recognizes the continent as the canonical territory of the Church of Alexandria), but I could be wrong.

Vis-a-vis the calendar I've only found information on the representation in Jo'burg (St. Sergius') and it's Julian calendar - I'd assume the representation in Cairo is old style as well and it'd make sense for the representation being built in Addis to be the same given that the Ethiopian calendar is on the same wavelength as the Julian.

ROCOR Church in Uganda is Julian, or was last I corresponded with them.  I guess there is not as much need to fit in with the world when you are on Bukasa Island.
Fit in with the world or sell out to the world?  You won't find anyone using the Old Calendar with electric organs like in much of the GOA in the US, priests dressed in Latin clerical shirts or indeed engaging with the heterodox except in the context of vigorous missionary work like in Bukasa with collaboration being about shared social issues, not shared worship.

I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.

You will find no disagreement with you on this issue from me, Brother - particularly your last statement.
Unfortunately Moscow strained out the gnat of the Calendar revision and swallowed the camel of the Petrine deforms.  Romania adopted the Revision and her Church went through communism in far better shape than Russia's did. And for most of the existence of Communist Moscow (which did again center Russia on Moscow) her patriarchate was on the Old Calendar.

I'm sorry, but your post makes no sense.  I am totally missing the point that you are trying to make.  You keep trying to bring up Communism, but neither Russia nor Romania is Communist.  It seems that in both countries, the Church triumphed over the atheists.  There is no continent on the face of the Earth where the Russian Orthodox Church does not exist.  It even exists in space.  Can Romania, or any other Orthodox Church say that?  You are having to dig pretty deep to find excuses for your Church's break from worshiping with the Universal Church.  And really, that is all they are - excuses.
The point is that those who boast of what a magic cure all the calendar is refuse to confront the fact that Czar Peter did far, FAR more damage to the Orthodox Church than they accuse Met/Abp/EP/Pope Meletios of doing.  If you want to showcase the triumph of secularism, the world and the heterodox/heretics, look there.

Univesal Church nothing: the various Churches with their various calendars did not begin to synchrnoize throughout the world until Nicea (remember the rebuke of Pope St. Victor?), and even then it did not start to become a reality until the Novella of Justinian and the institution of the indiction, i.e. the secular world and its astronomically based calendar.

Others keep on bringing up Communism, as an excuse to deflect the failure of the Old Calendar to save Orthdooxy, despite their boasting.

Outside of Antarctica, yes, my own race the Arabs are on every continent. And the Greeks, and the Romanians.  The Bulgarians are even on Antarctica.  I don't know how much they are on one continent (South America, although its largest country just elected a Bulgarian Communist President). The space question has already been answered.

The Russia Church is a great Church, but the Old Calendar is NOT one of the pillars of its greatness.
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« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2011, 01:57:06 PM »

"Btw, the EO Church in Ethiopia is on the Revised Calendar..."

Yes, all 4 (or 5?) parishes of the Metropolis of Axum are on the new calendar :-). The rest of the faithful (roughly 37 million people) are on the Ethiopian calendar.
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« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2011, 02:22:03 PM »

"Btw, the EO Church in Ethiopia is on the Revised Calendar..."

Yes, all 4 (or 5?) parishes of the Metropolis of Axum are on the new calendar :-). The rest of the faithful (roughly 37 million people) are on the Ethiopian calendar.

Those 37 million are not EO.
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« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2011, 02:38:07 PM »

Indeed! Orthodox nonetheless though.
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« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2011, 05:23:50 PM »

Pi-'Khristos af-don-f!
"Btw, the EO Church in Ethiopia is on the Revised Calendar..."

Yes, all 4 (or 5?) parishes of the Metropolis of Axum are on the new calendar :-). The rest of the faithful (roughly 37 million people) are on the Ethiopian calendar.
They are also not EO, nor in the EO Patriarchate of Alexandria, and hence not involved with this EP-Moscow spat.
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« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2011, 11:11:02 AM »



I was speaking tongue-in-cheek; of course this would never happen. (Though it would be a nice prerequisite for Turkey joining the EU.)

I stand corrected.

Quote
For the same reason we are obsessed with all kinds of holy places—the holy land, the holy mountain, etc.

Speak for yourself, I'm not obsessed with these places and take St. Gregory of Nyssa's view that all places are equally holy. To suggest one place on earth is more holy than another is more a teaching of Judaism (the temple mount) than Christ. To each their own though.

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Quote
You can celebrate the divine liturgy on an antimins on a rock in the woods, true enough, but I don't understand why we should write off our holy Churches that were overrun by Moslems and now are used for demon worship. They are parasites that need to be removed. Especially churches that are now used for secular purposes.

First, how would you like it if someone of another faith called Christians parasites that "need to be removed". This is disturbing language. (in fact some people do say that, how does that make you feel?) Such language is uncalled for coming from a Christian. You are talking about fellow human beings, people are icons of Christ. Such language is not right.

Secondly, I don't see any demon worship going on in a MUSEUM....

Third, some Protestants would say the exact same thing about YOU for kissing and "worshipping" icons...do unto others as you would have them do unto you; I think this goes for speaking of others as well. Of course I fail at that commandment just like all others do; I think certain positions are idiotic (flat earthers for example) and will say so, however calling someone a parasite and a demon worshiper is pretty derisive language, that in case you haven't realized, will do absolutely NOTHING for your cause except make you feel better about yourself.





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« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2011, 05:18:05 PM »

This sounds an awful lot like Napoleons attempt to move the papacy from Rome to Paris. 
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« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2011, 05:27:23 PM »

This sounds an awful lot like Napoleons attempt to move the papacy from Rome to Paris.  

These are gossips collected by American diplomats who are known to be experts on the Orthodox ecclesiology. The only one awful thing about it is the attention that this thrash is given.
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« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2011, 08:14:51 PM »

/\  His Holiness Patriarch Kirill has 75% of the world's Orthodox under his omophor.  He also has at his disposal resources of a magnitude unknown in the other Local Churches.  

It is natural that this very important Church should feel that it should take the leading role among the Churches.   Many of us do not see why it should not have that role, with due deference and respect for the great value of the historical role of the Church of Constantinople for the last 1000 years.  

I do not see the aspirations of the Russian Orthodox faithful as trash but as legitimate aspirations which will develop slowly, in a spirit of love and unity within the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2011, 12:25:46 AM »

Given how much of the Russian Orthodox Church's resources (in terms of functioning parishes, monasteries, and clergyman) are based out of Ukraine its preeminence may have to be shared sometime in the not too distant future with an independent Ukrainian Orthodox metropolia or patriarchate...
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« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2011, 11:56:01 AM »

I do not see the aspirations of the Russian Orthodox faithful as trash but as legitimate aspirations which will develop slowly, in a spirit of love and unity within the Orthodox Church.

Who are the Russia faithful that want it? Can you give names or some organisations?
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« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2011, 04:45:38 PM »

I do not see the aspirations of the Russian Orthodox faithful as trash but as legitimate aspirations which will develop slowly, in a spirit of love and unity within the Orthodox Church.

Who are the Russia faithful that want it? Can you give names or some organisations?

Certainly those who advocate the Third Rome theory.  Possibly it has a wider base.

If we advert to the OP we see the assertion that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is "seriously concerned" about the possibility that a transfer of power from Constantinople to Moscow is being spoken about by Turkey and Russia.

Of course there may be Russian Orthodox who are against the idea that Moscow is being called to assume leadership in the Orthodox world.
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« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2011, 05:12:16 PM »

If we advert to the OP we see the assertion that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is "seriously concerned" about the possibility that a transfer of power from Constantinople to Moscow is being spoken about by Turkey and Russia.

What proofs does it have?
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« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2011, 05:15:49 PM »

If we advert to the OP we see the assertion that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is "seriously concerned" about the possibility that a transfer of power from Constantinople to Moscow is being spoken about by Turkey and Russia.

What proofs does it have?
Exactly, and I don't even think the article said that Russia has said it (I may be wrong), only that Turkey said it...
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« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2011, 05:23:30 PM »

If we advert to the OP we see the assertion that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is "seriously concerned" about the possibility that a transfer of power from Constantinople to Moscow is being spoken about by Turkey and Russia.

What proofs does it have?

The OP is from Portal-Credo.ru

http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=83673

If I can find an e-mail address I'll send an enquiry.  At the moment their Contact page is malfunctioning.
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« Reply #61 on: April 29, 2011, 05:38:30 PM »

No, I'm asking about the sources of those American intelligence workers.

I don't believe in things just because someone wrote something.
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« Reply #62 on: April 29, 2011, 05:55:48 PM »


No, I'm asking about the sources of those American intelligence workers.

Going by the OP, their sources are "Cablegate" telegrams numbered 06ANKAPA2597 and 08ISTANBUL595.

Are these made available on the Web?
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« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2011, 05:58:15 PM »

I'm not asking whether some ignorant's newsreport about some other ignorants' opppinions is accurate. I'm asking whether the information about the Russian Orthodox POV is reliable.
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« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2011, 05:59:57 PM »

I think he doesn't know - ask Patriarch Cyril or Metropolitan Hilarion. They would be the most sensible people to be putting your question to ;-).
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« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2011, 06:00:34 PM »

The Volokolamskite Hilarion of course. I don't think the ROCOR's Hilarion particularly cares who the ecumenical patriarch is...
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« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2011, 06:07:00 PM »


I don't think the ROCOR's Hilarion particularly cares who the ecumenical patriarch is...


Is that reliable information?  Is there a source?   Smiley
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« Reply #67 on: April 29, 2011, 06:17:12 PM »

Haha :-)! "You know what they say about assumin'" ;-). I'll make sure I include an author, title, and page number next time...
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« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2011, 01:10:25 AM »

I'm not asking whether some ignorant's newsreport about some other ignorants' opppinions is accurate. I'm asking whether the information about the Russian Orthodox POV is reliable.

The perceived desire of the Russian Church to assume the role of Third Rome and leadership in the Orthodox world is taken seriously enough by the Patriarch of Constantinople.  He fired off letters denouncing it to

1.  the Patriarch of Moscow

2. the External Affairs Department of the Russian Church

3.  the Russian Minister of the Exterior

4.  the Metropolitan of Smolensk

5.  the Vice President of the Parliamentary Committee

and others.


"On the other side of this issue, the official representative of the Russian government, Vladimir Zorin, spoke of the need to unite all of the Orthodox nations “…under the banner of the Russian Church, which is the largest, and, as such, holds the leadership position among the Orthodox Churches.”"

"The Vice-President of the Parliamentary Committee declared that the Russian Orthodox Church was “…the only one able to lead a Pan-Orthodox unity of a multinational character. For that reason, the 3rd Orthodox Capital prophesied by Saint Seraphim of Sarof is needed. We must adhere to the historical necessity of founding a ’3rd Rome.’ “

More information at

http://cathedraunitatis.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/constantinople-denounces-third-rome-theory/


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« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2011, 02:07:23 AM »

This wiki leaks stuff has ruined the inner workings of diplomacy? Can nothing just be secret anymore?
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« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2011, 03:24:35 AM »

Goodness what a fuss! Anyone would think that the Oecumenical Patriarchate is the first among equals of the world's Orthodox Bishops or something..... Cheesy
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« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2011, 04:19:36 AM »

Haha! "Behold the power..." ;-)
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« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2011, 07:37:02 AM »

Christ is risen!
I don't think the Ecumenical Patriarchate has a presence in Africa (it recognizes the continent as the canonical territory of the Church of Alexandria), but I could be wrong.

Vis-a-vis the calendar I've only found information on the representation in Jo'burg (St. Sergius') and it's Julian calendar - I'd assume the representation in Cairo is old style as well and it'd make sense for the representation being built in Addis to be the same given that the Ethiopian calendar is on the same wavelength as the Julian.

ROCOR Church in Uganda is Julian, or was last I corresponded with them.  I guess there is not as much need to fit in with the world when you are on Bukasa Island.
Fit in with the world or sell out to the world?  You won't find anyone using the Old Calendar with electric organs like in much of the GOA in the US, priests dressed in Latin clerical shirts or indeed engaging with the heterodox except in the context of vigorous missionary work like in Bukasa with collaboration being about shared social issues, not shared worship.

I think the MP and Old Calendar churches - the majority of Orthodox Christians still manage to live in the secular world and "cope" with the burden of a Church Calendar that doesn't need to fit with secular pagan Christmas, or need change because it never needed reform and was only altered by those infused with the non-Orthodox values of the Enlightenment.

You will find no disagreement with you on this issue from me, Brother - particularly your last statement.
Unfortunately Moscow strained out the gnat of the Calendar revision and swallowed the camel of the Petrine deforms.  Romania adopted the Revision and her Church went through communism in far better shape than Russia's did. And for most of the existence of Communist Moscow (which did again center Russia on Moscow) her patriarchate was on the Old Calendar.

I'm sorry, but your post makes no sense.  I am totally missing the point that you are trying to make.  You keep trying to bring up Communism, but neither Russia nor Romania is Communist.  It seems that in both countries, the Church triumphed over the atheists.  There is no continent on the face of the Earth where the Russian Orthodox Church does not exist.  It even exists in space.  Can Romania, or any other Orthodox Church say that?  You are having to dig pretty deep to find excuses for your Church's break from worshiping with the Universal Church.  And really, that is all they are - excuses.
The point is that those who boast of what a magic cure all the calendar is refuse to confront the fact that Czar Peter did far, FAR more damage to the Orthodox Church than they accuse Met/Abp/EP/Pope Meletios of doing.  If you want to showcase the triumph of secularism, the world and the heterodox/heretics, look there.

Univesal Church nothing: the various Churches with their various calendars did not begin to synchrnoize throughout the world until Nicea (remember the rebuke of Pope St. Victor?), and even then it did not start to become a reality until the Novella of Justinian and the institution of the indiction, i.e. the secular world and its astronomically based calendar.

Others keep on bringing up Communism, as an excuse to deflect the failure of the Old Calendar to save Orthdooxy, despite their boasting.

Outside of Antarctica, yes, my own race the Arabs are on every continent. And the Greeks, and the Romanians.  The Bulgarians are even on Antarctica.  I don't know how much they are on one continent (South America, although its largest country just elected a Bulgarian Communist President). The space question has already been answered.

The Russia Church is a great Church, but the Old Calendar is NOT one of the pillars of its greatness.
Given that I have been told not to go on about the Calendar - whether Old or the many versions of the New - aka 'revised'etc that you clearly favor, I won't go on about the Old calendar. 

Peter the Great........ for heaven's sake the Patriarchate has been restored for almost 100 years.  The Synodical government of the Church of Russia is long buried just as the Sergianist era MP issues are largely buried.  What is appropriate is the consideration that 75% of the world's Orthodox Christians are under the omophor of the Russian Orthodox Church, compared with perhaps 5% under Constantinople, which is not even free to practice Orthodoxy in its own heartland of Turkey. 

You say that the Old Calendar didn't save the Russian Church?  I think it did, because the Renovationist schism sought to implement all manner of reforms - married bishops, modernised and shortened liturgies and of course a secular calendar.

I feel for the Ecumenical Patriarch, enduring persecution, stuck in the Phanar as the numbers of Orthodox in Turkey (apart from Russian workers) diminishes annually.  If Turkey is incapable of acknowledging what it has done to the Greek/Turkish Orthodox in Turkey, what hope is there for the Ecumenical Patriarch to do anything but relocate?
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« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2011, 09:00:38 AM »

To think, that Catholics and Orthodox in  Turkey do not hate each other like Moscow would like to be.


Video about Polish Capuchin Franciscans on missionary work in Turkey in Polish. The Capuchins say that they attend Orthodox services and Orthodox priests attend Catholic services. There is no enmity between Catholics and Orthodox there. There is a part where there is a talk with an Orthodox priest, the priest calls the Capuchins brother.
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« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2011, 09:39:31 AM »

Goodness what a fuss! Anyone would think that the Oecumenical Patriarchate is the first among equals of the world's Orthodox Bishops or something..... Cheesy

Well, I wouldn't want to engage in idle speculation, but I suspect that their are many across the spectrum of Russian nationalists and religionists whose interpretation of 'primus inter pares' and a 'primacy of honor' might have more in common with a similar view of the same (but from a 'different' perspective) as some inhabitants of the Italian peninsula have regarding their Church and its role within their faith. While many of us, myself included, admire the Church of Russia for a whole variety of reasons, not all of us Orthodox, myself included, are especially fond of the Russian bear.
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« Reply #75 on: April 30, 2011, 10:26:41 AM »

Goodness what a fuss! Anyone would think that the Oecumenical Patriarchate is the first among equals of the world's Orthodox Bishops or something..... Cheesy

Well, I wouldn't want to engage in idle speculation, but I suspect that their are many across the spectrum of Russian nationalists and religionists whose interpretation of 'primus inter pares' and a 'primacy of honor' might have more in common with a similar view of the same (but from a 'different' perspective) as some inhabitants of the Italian peninsula have regarding their Church and its role within their faith. While many of us, myself included, admire the Church of Russia for a whole variety of reasons, not all of us Orthodox, myself included, are especially fond of the Russian bear.
I am in Constantinople at the moment, and believe me the Patriarchate couldn't be any more modest. Vatican City it ain't! I'm having to worship in catacomb churches here- one is literally an underground basement! The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though. This is probably what the Ancient Church was like before the Edict of Milan!
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« Reply #76 on: April 30, 2011, 10:38:59 AM »

The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
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« Reply #77 on: April 30, 2011, 02:38:22 PM »

The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
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« Reply #78 on: April 30, 2011, 02:45:05 PM »

Goodness what a fuss! Anyone would think that the Oecumenical Patriarchate is the first among equals of the world's Orthodox Bishops or something..... Cheesy

Well, I wouldn't want to engage in idle speculation, but I suspect that their are many across the spectrum of Russian nationalists and religionists whose interpretation of 'primus inter pares' and a 'primacy of honor' might have more in common with a similar view of the same (but from a 'different' perspective) as some inhabitants of the Italian peninsula have regarding their Church and its role within their faith. While many of us, myself included, admire the Church of Russia for a whole variety of reasons, not all of us Orthodox, myself included, are especially fond of the Russian bear.
I am in Constantinople at the moment, and believe me the Patriarchate couldn't be any more modest. Vatican City it ain't! I'm having to worship in catacomb churches here- one is literally an underground basement! The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though. This is probably what the Ancient Church was like before the Edict of Milan!

Wow, I definitely didn't really notice that while I was there, I figured there were very few.
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« Reply #79 on: April 30, 2011, 02:45:26 PM »

The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.
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« Reply #80 on: April 30, 2011, 02:46:57 PM »

The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
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« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2011, 03:12:14 PM »

Mesih diril-di! Hristos diril-di!
The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
No, but it clarifies that not all Turks have to make it to Istanbul. In fact, in many ways it's better they don't (as Antioch is not watched as closely as the Phanar, and can get away with more).
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« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2011, 03:24:46 PM »

Mesih diril-di! Hristos diril-di!
The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
No, but it clarifies that not all Turks have to make it to Istanbul. In fact, in many ways it's better they don't (as Antioch is not watched as closely as the Phanar, and can get away with more).
Why would all Turks have to make it to Istanbul to be Orthodox Christians? There are crypto-Christians all over the country under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
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« Reply #83 on: April 30, 2011, 03:49:05 PM »

Mesih diril-di! Hristos diril-di!
The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
No, but it clarifies that not all Turks have to make it to Istanbul. In fact, in many ways it's better they don't (as Antioch is not watched as closely as the Phanar, and can get away with more).

Which parts of Turkey constitute a canonical territory of the Antiochian Orthodox Church? The Hatay Province of the Mediterranean Region, I guess, but anything else?
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« Reply #84 on: April 30, 2011, 03:55:45 PM »

To think, that Catholics and Orthodox in  Turkey do not hate each other like Moscow would like to be.


Video about Polish Capuchin Franciscans on missionary work in Turkey in Polish. The Capuchins say that they attend Orthodox services and Orthodox priests attend Catholic services. There is no enmity between Catholics and Orthodox there. There is a part where there is a talk with an Orthodox priest, the priest calls the Capuchins brother.
I put the links as image not as links
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPKcvOG6g5Y&feature=player_embedded
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDiJE3I31Xw The priests are in Izmir/Smyrna.
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« Reply #85 on: April 30, 2011, 03:56:20 PM »

Christos Voskrese!
The Russia Church is a great Church, but the Old Calendar is NOT one of the pillars of its greatness.
Given that I have been told not to go on about the Calendar - whether Old or the many versions of the New - aka 'revised'etc that you clearly favor, I won't go on about the Old calendar.
There is one version of the New Calendar. As for continuing, you are free to do that on any number of threads.
Peter the Great........ for heaven's sake the Patriarchate has been restored for almost 100 years.
It was abolished for over 200. And it is restored a century only for us who recognized it before 2007.

The Synodical government of the Church of Russia is long buried just as the Sergianist era MP issues are largely buried.
 
Legacies aren't erased so easily, nor are they so "long buried."

What is appropriate is the consideration that 75% of the world's Orthodox Christians are under the omophor of the Russian Orthodox Church,
What will it be when Ukraine gains its autocephaly?

compared with perhaps 5% under Constantinople, which is not even free to practice Orthodoxy in its own heartland of Turkey.
Moscow wasn't even free to practice Orthodoxy in its own heartland of Russia, and yet it survived.

You say that the Old Calendar didn't save the Russian Church?  I think it did, because the Renovationist schism sought to implement all manner of reforms - married bishops, modernised and shortened liturgies and of course a secular calendar.
I thought you just said you were not going to go on about the Old Calendar.
I won't go on about the Old calendar
I thought so.  Answered here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,34670.new.html#new

I feel for the Ecumenical Patriarch, enduring persecution, stuck in the Phanar as the numbers of Orthodox in Turkey (apart from Russian workers) diminishes annually.
No, there are plenty of resident (but not citizen) Greeks around, along with lots of Gagauz Orthodox and from what I understand Romanians.  Then there are the Arab Orthodox on the other side of the Turkish repbulic, and the growing number of Turkish converts throughout.

If Turkey is incapable of acknowledging what it has done to the Greek/Turkish Orthodox in Turkey, what hope is there for the Ecumenical Patriarch to do anything but relocate?
You leave that to us.  Russia experienced only persecusion for 80 years (if Czarist persecusion of the Church isn't counted), and the Tartar yoke only lasted just over two centuries and a half, and from afar.  Greece resurrected after four centuries of direct occupation, and Alexandria, after nearly two millenium has more EO (and OO) than it had when the caliphs came, and has spread across the entire continent.  Antioch is also doiing fine.  Constantinople can survive.
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« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2011, 03:58:50 PM »

Mesih diril-di! Hristos diril-di!
The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
No, but it clarifies that not all Turks have to make it to Istanbul. In fact, in many ways it's better they don't (as Antioch is not watched as closely as the Phanar, and can get away with more).

Which parts of Turkey constitute a canonical territory of the Antiochian Orthodox Church? The Hatay Province of the Mediterranean Region, I guess, but anything else?
Ciicilia.  The extreme Eastern end of the Republic (i.e. Kurdistan) is somewhat murky.

Btw, Hatay is a Turkish occupied part of Syria.
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« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2011, 04:02:43 PM »

Mesih diril-di! Hristos diril-di!
The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
No, but it clarifies that not all Turks have to make it to Istanbul. In fact, in many ways it's better they don't (as Antioch is not watched as closely as the Phanar, and can get away with more).
Why would all Turks have to make it to Istanbul to be Orthodox Christians? There are crypto-Christians all over the country under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
I'm just repeating what I've been told by Turks who were seeking to convert.  Evidently the Phanar is quite centralized.
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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« Reply #88 on: April 30, 2011, 04:05:22 PM »

Mesih diril-di! Hristos diril-di!
The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
No, but it clarifies that not all Turks have to make it to Istanbul. In fact, in many ways it's better they don't (as Antioch is not watched as closely as the Phanar, and can get away with more).
Why would all Turks have to make it to Istanbul to be Orthodox Christians? There are crypto-Christians all over the country under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
I'm just repeating what I've been told by Turks who were seeking to convert.  Evidently the Phanar is quite centralized.
Have you been to Turkey yourself?
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« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2011, 04:12:25 PM »

Mesih diril-di! Hristos diril-di!
The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
No, but it clarifies that not all Turks have to make it to Istanbul. In fact, in many ways it's better they don't (as Antioch is not watched as closely as the Phanar, and can get away with more).
Why would all Turks have to make it to Istanbul to be Orthodox Christians? There are crypto-Christians all over the country under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
I'm just repeating what I've been told by Turks who were seeking to convert.  Evidently the Phanar is quite centralized.
Have you been to Turkey yourself?
The Turkish Republic? Several times, all over. My cross was blessed on the Phanar's altar Shocked
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2011, 04:15:51 PM »

So what was your favorite place to eat in Constantinople?
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« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2011, 04:27:54 PM »

Mesih diril-di! Hristos diril-di!
The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
No, but it clarifies that not all Turks have to make it to Istanbul. In fact, in many ways it's better they don't (as Antioch is not watched as closely as the Phanar, and can get away with more).

Which parts of Turkey constitute a canonical territory of the Antiochian Orthodox Church? The Hatay Province of the Mediterranean Region, I guess, but anything else?
Ciicilia.

Is it settled with the EP or is there a "fight" over the region?
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« Reply #92 on: April 30, 2011, 11:51:29 PM »

So what was your favorite place to eat in Constantinople?
LOL. Eating smit with some juice on the steps of the Kaiser Wilhelm fountain, looking over the plaze towards Agia Sophia.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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« Reply #93 on: May 01, 2011, 01:30:05 AM »

Mesih diril-di! Hristos diril-di!
The number of Turks who are crypto-Christians has astounded me though.

Are (m)any of them Eastern Orthodox Christians?
All the ones I have met are. They are under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
Not all. Antioch has a number.

Which doesn't mean that all the ones ozgeorge happened to meet weren't under the EP's omophorion.
No, but it clarifies that not all Turks have to make it to Istanbul. In fact, in many ways it's better they don't (as Antioch is not watched as closely as the Phanar, and can get away with more).

Which parts of Turkey constitute a canonical territory of the Antiochian Orthodox Church? The Hatay Province of the Mediterranean Region, I guess, but anything else?
Ciicilia.

Is it settled with the EP or is there a "fight" over the region?
No, it is settled. The EP had seized it some time before and returned it in the 19th century IIRC.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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« Reply #94 on: May 01, 2011, 01:33:47 AM »

Christos Anesti!
So what was your favorite place to eat in Constantinople?
LOL. Eating smit with some juice on the steps of the Kaiser Wilhelm fountain, looking over the plaze towards Agia Sophia.


I must have been sitting on the fountain edge, or the benches/fences in front.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 01:41:02 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #95 on: May 01, 2011, 09:55:47 AM »

Oh, you mean simit.
I just had lunch in Üsküdar at a wonderful place that serves Lokantasi hazir yemek. The place is called Kanaat Lokantasi. You must try it next time you're in town.
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« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2011, 05:13:27 PM »

Christos anesti!
Oh, you mean simit.
I just had lunch in Üsküdar at a wonderful place that serves Lokantasi hazir yemek. The place is called Kanaat Lokantasi. You must try it next time you're in town.


I've never been to Üsküda, but I've been next door in Kadıköy, and even that was mostly to say I'd been to Chalcedon.  I never spent much time outside the Theodosian wall, except for Galata. What all did you have? I have to give the Turks their culinary due: they have the best variation of Mediterrean for most dishes.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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