Author Topic: a qur'an question...  (Read 1009 times)

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Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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a qur'an question...
« on: April 21, 2011, 03:34:31 PM »
(I wanted to ask this, as I know that we have had some Muslims and Christians versed in the Qur'an come through OC.net)

does the Qur'an really say that the Jews (my ancestors) are apes and pigs?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbHVEGnYD8&feature=related

Offline Cognomen

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Re: a qur'an question...
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2011, 04:57:20 PM »
Not really.  It does say that some were turned into them though (whatever that means).
Shocking that a 5 year old on a Wahhabi TV propaganda program wouldn't present a full and accurate understanding of certain surah references though.  ;) 

My advice: It's Holy Week, mate. Don't burden yourself with stuff like this at the moment.
North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: a qur'an question...
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2011, 05:02:41 PM »
Not really.  It does say that some were turned into them though (whatever that means).

You've never seen the movie Willow? Seriously though, humans are close enough to apes that I wouldn't worry about it.  :)

Offline vasily

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Re: a qur'an question...
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2011, 07:38:34 PM »
Christ is Risen!

In Islam Prophet "Isa" is expected to return, but to condemn the Christians' misunderstanding and judge all non-Muslims. The Koran universally brands all unbelievers as the 'vilest of creatures". (Sura 98:6) He will break the Cross, kill the swine and abolish jizya, and establish the rule of Allah throughout the world.

 The Jews are likewise marked for destruction. Islam's long history of anti-semitism finds full expression in the Koran. Jews are described as being made into apes and swine.(5:60,2:65, 7:166) They are eternally cursed. 2:61,3:112)

 This info is from an exceptional book I highly recommended on another thread.
Facing Islam- by Ralph H. Sidway- Kalyve of Blessed Seraphim Press Louisville KY.



 

Offline Cognomen

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Re: a qur'an question...
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2011, 09:52:40 PM »
^
I admittedly have not read the book you referenced, but this seems to be a pretty irresponsible representation of the Qur'an and, more importantly, a pretty weak argument.  I'm not suggesting that things have not been interpreted the way you state, but a very cursory examination of the context of those scriptural citations suggests very selective quoting.

The Jews are likewise marked for destruction. Islam's long history of anti-semitism finds full expression in the Koran. Jews are described as being made into apes and swine.(5:60,2:65, 7:166) They are eternally cursed. 2:61,3:112)

For instance, immediately following 2:61, 2:62 explains that:
Quote
"Lo! those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans--whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right--surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them, neither shall they grieve."

Similarly, immediately following 3:112
3:113 states:
Quote
"They [Jews/Christians] are not all alike.  Of the People of the Book, there is a staunch community who recite the revelations Allah in the night season, falling prostrate (before Him)."
3:1114 :
Quote
"They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. They are of the righteous."

In the context of the references to the unbelievers, this is shown and generally interpreted to be pagans, atheists, or Jews and Christians who do not really believe in God.  That said, some Jews, primarily the ones who wrongfully killed God's prophets are said to have been damned.

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).

Offline vasily

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Re: a qur'an question...
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2011, 07:38:45 AM »
Christ is Risen!

 The point is that in the Koran there are not only discrepancies but contradictions. Islam regards itself not as a subsequent faith to Judaism and Christianity, but as the primordial religion, the faith from which Judaism and Christianity are subsequent developments. The Prophets and Saints were not Jews or Christians but Muslims. It is Muslims who are the true representatives of the Faith of Abraham today. History has shown that Islam has no tolerance of any other religion. When they become a majority sharia law is imposed, and non-Muslims are subjected to dhimmitude.

 Two other books I recommend are:
Religion of Peace?- Islam's war against the world- by Gregory M. Davis- World ahead publishing
The Great Divide- Alvin J. Schmidt-Regina Orthodox Press           

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: a qur'an question...
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2011, 08:17:13 AM »
In Islam some late-dated Qur'an verses are believed to have abrogated the early-dated ones. This concept of abrogation, of course, serves the short memory of the Qur'an author and enables him to make changes in the book whenever necessary.

Of all the Qur'an chapters that talk about Jews and Christians (actually, the author of the Qur'an names Christians "Nazarenes"!), Surah 5 and Surah 9 belong to the latest period and illustrate Muhammad's finalized teachings:

Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve chieftains, and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor-due, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road. And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly.  (Surah 5:12-13)

And with those who say: "Lo! we are Christians," We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished. Therefore We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will inform them of their handiwork. (Surah 5:14)


For the author of the Qur'an, BOTH Jews and Christians were evil:

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. (Surah 5:51)

However, the same author picked up the Christians if he had to make a choice between Jews and Christians:

Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud. (Surah 5:82)

In the end, the author of the Qur'an taught that Jews and Christians were not different from polytheists/pagans and that Muslims were commanded to fight them:

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. (Surah 9:29)

And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! (Surah 9:30-31)
 
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Offline Cognomen

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Re: a qur'an question...
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2011, 10:44:36 AM »
The point is that in the Koran there are not only discrepancies but contradictions.

In complete agreement there.
 
In Islam some late-dated Qur'an verses are believed to have abrogated the early-dated ones. This concept of abrogation, of course, serves the short memory of the Qur'an author and enables him to make changes in the book whenever necessary.

Truly one of the strangest tenets of Islam is the concept of abrogation.  It's one thing to chronicle a narrative of the OT and believe that the authors achieved a fuller understanding towards the end (of the canon).  It's quite another to assume that the same person, given a series of "revelations" over the course of several years managed to muck it up, give conflicting teachings, and have that be alright.

As usual, thanks for your contributions to threads like these, Theophilos.


North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: a qur'an question...
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2011, 12:50:56 PM »

As usual, thanks for your contributions to threads like these, Theophilos.


You are welcome.

Suggested readings can be found @ http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen.html
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Offline bogdan

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Re: a qur'an question...
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2011, 01:24:27 PM »
In Islam some late-dated Qur'an verses are believed to have abrogated the early-dated ones. This concept of abrogation, of course, serves the short memory of the Qur'an author and enables him to make changes in the book whenever necessary.

And this why we cannot trust Muslims on a religious level. They are able to play off Christian methods of scriptural interpretation (i.e, non-chronological) and make us think we're A-OK. But in reality, any positive words for Christians and Jews are abrogated by the end of the book.

This is also why "Protestant Muslims," despite being tolerant of Christians, are actually perverting their own religion, and are considered extremist liberals by Muslims who understand Mohammad's intentions in writing the Koran. Muslim reformers are decent and good people I think, but they are not Muslims.